No need for sharpened - the mathematical way.

Masel · March 2017

Did an effective spell power calculation with different magicka sets with the uesp build editor (which is the best Build tool around imo) to clear up how viable NOT using sharpened really is compared to the BSW/IA/Monster Set Meta. The orange highlighted setups require sharpened IA/Moondancer and vMA Staffs to reach those numbers.

Given that the BiS setup requires an Endless Gear Grind in order to get both a sharpened vMA staff AND a sharpened moondancer or aether staff, for 95% of the players it is preferable to settle for one of the above setups and do stuff that is fun with it. Because they'll never ever end up in the Top 100 Trial Leaderboards.

The uesp effective spell power includes everything except flat percentage bonuses like elemental expert, minor vulnerability and the exploiter passive, which is why I factored them in afterwards because all three affect basically all damage you deal. Proc sets are also excluded, but all of the setups are exactly similar and have only illambris as proc based set. The burning status effect from BSW is excluded too and will push those percentages a little more.

You see that ALL of those setups range within 5% of the considered Best in Slot Setup. The advantage of going for spinner is that you can settle for a nirnhoned/infused/precise/charged staff on the front AND back bar and still be within 5% of the Best in Slot Setup.

This limits the gear grind by a significant margin.

If my math is off, please correct me.

Assumptions:

BSW uptime of 60%.
Weapon Damage Glyphs procced on cooldown.

All done on a templar, so the critical modifier is higher than it is on a sorcerer and dk, so precise+spinner and Mothers Sorrow lose out a little there.

Charged gives you a 95-100% uptime on both off-balance and concussion by yourself, which is the reason why the effective power is so strong in solo play and groups where the uptime is not there.

The only thing that changes between the setups is that I took 17 cp from the elemental expert tree and put it in spell erosion.

What we learn?

BSW is overtuned, but that isn't new. The elemental expert tree is overtuned too: 17 points from 78-95 deliver more or at least similar damage than 17 points from 0-17 in spell erosion.
The precise trait with spinner can be used as a slightly weaker version of mothers sorrow on nightblades and templars and still do great DPS.
Charged is very good in solo play. I knew that before, but maybe more people notice now.
Infused is better than nirnhoned, it basically doubles the power of your enchantments and therefore provides more spell damage (174>146) and empowers your crushing wall on vMA staffs.

darthsithis · March 2017

Nice! I use maelstrom nirnhoned backbar and do just fine with it haha. I'm not grinding for sharpened when I weave on my front bar anyways

Nestor · March 2017

Masel92 wrote: »

You see that ALL of those setups range within 5% of the considered Best in Slot Setup.

Hush now your going to pop the bubble of all the Min/Maxers out there and have them get all in a tizzy.

I think getting within 5% of the max whatever is rather easy to do. On all of my characters I have different combos of sets, some have Willpower, some have 2 set items that increase spell damage, all kinds of different things. Every time I look at changing things up, I don't see all that much an improvement over what I had.

The gear grind is really a myth for 99% of the content in the game. Unless you want to be in the top 100 of the Trials Leader Boards, there is no need to chase the nth degree of stats, it's a waste of time. The mobs are going to die just as quickly, PvP is not going to be decided on a 5% difference in stats, Vet Dungeons can be achieved and Trials will be completed with gear that is 95% of the theoretical max.

Here is one example. To get that lauded Sharpened vMA staff, you have to grind MA without it. Well, if you can grind MA without it, then do you really need it? Want it, sure, need it? Nah.

darthsithis · March 2017

Got flawless without sharpened vma staff lol. Don't need it, it'll help maybe but I've done all content without it lol

Izaki · March 2017

darthsithis wrote: »

Got flawless without sharpened vma staff lol. Don't need it, it'll help maybe but I've done all content without it lol

Well on a Sorc, if you can come up with a good rotation with Deadric Prey on the back bar and the execute on the front bar, you really don't need a sharpened vMA inferno. As of now they are bugged anyway, so you might as well just use something else

darthsithis · March 2017

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

darthsithis wrote: »

Got flawless without sharpened vma staff lol. Don't need it, it'll help maybe but I've done all content without it lol

Well on a Sorc, if you can come up with a good rotation with Deadric Prey on the back bar and the execute on the front bar, you really don't need a sharpened vMA inferno. As of now they are bugged anyway, so you might as well just use something else

Hmm? Vma staff bugged? Like no enchant???

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · March 2017

darthsithis wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

darthsithis wrote: »

Got flawless without sharpened vma staff lol. Don't need it, it'll help maybe but I've done all content without it lol

Well on a Sorc, if you can come up with a good rotation with Deadric Prey on the back bar and the execute on the front bar, you really don't need a sharpened vMA inferno. As of now they are bugged anyway, so you might as well just use something else

Hmm? Vma staff bugged? Like no enchant???

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/324753/bug-maelstrom-destro-staff-enchant-broken-edit-all-maelstrom-weapons-broken/p1

darthsithis · March 2017

Ty!

Reorx_Holybeard · March 2017

Great analysis! I just updated the UESP Build Editor to include Elemental Expert/Mighty, Minor Slayer, and Minor Vulnerability (Target) effects in the Effective Spell/Weapon calculation. I've been meaning to update it for a while now and your post gave me nudge I needed. If you or anyone has further ideas on improving the effective power stats just jet me know!

superleeds19 · March 2017

@Masel92 so julianos,ilambris and IA with Vma sharp staff is 0.8% away from "BiS"?

Jim_Pipp · March 2017

@Masel92 thanks. Just wanted to say that your recent (last month or so) myth-busting about sharpened has led to me changing 3 character builds... non-sharpened weapons areally so cheap to buy and the builds really do excel. Understanding the effectiveness of charged on a staff build changed my magicka playstyle for the better.

I'm looking forward to wardens who (may) have a +200% chance to apply the chilled status, and giving ice staff tanks a fantastic root spell through ice staff elemental blockade.

Erock25 · March 2017

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

Great analysis! I just updated the UESP Build Editor to include Elemental Expert/Mighty, Minor Slayer, and Minor Vulnerability (Target) effects in the Effective Spell/Weapon calculation. I've been meaning to update it for a while now and your post gave me nudge I needed. If you or anyone has further ideas on improving the effective power stats just jet me know!

Holy [snip] @Reorx_Holybeard I was messing with builds today and one second all my theoretical builds are sitting around 8300 effective weapon power and then BAM they're all sitting around 10300. I was convinced the program was bugged and that I shouldn't use it anymore and here you are telling me it wasn't bugged. Thanks so much for that build editor by the way. Best thing ever.

Masel · March 2017

superleeds19 wrote: »

@Masel92 so julianos,ilambris and IA with Vma sharp staff is 0.8% away from "BiS"?

Yes it is. It's going to be a little more than that in the end, because of the additional burning from BSW. Julianos gives you 360 spell damage, ~6% critical rating and 967 Magicka, while BSW gives 586 Spell damage at a 60% uptime, 3% crit and 967 magicka. The difference is lower on a magplar or magblade because of the 10% additional crit damage modifier. So no need to grind yourself BSW just to get 2% more damage if you can just use julianos or TBS and be right behind that.

All that is just valid if you have sharpened vMA and aether/moondancer staffs or course. With anything else than a sharpened vMA staff, the spinner set will come out ahead because you keep the penetration on both bars and it enables you to run aether and vMA staffs in precise/nirnhoned/infused/charged.

superleeds19 · March 2017

I was interested because I've been running 5 julianos,4 aether and 2 ilambris and it's been incredible damage!

darthsithis · March 2017

Can I just do my necro 5x infal 3x ilambris 2x and maelstrom nirnhoned ? Is grinding vma for sharpened on my back bar really only worth like 2% damage?

Rohamad_Ali · March 2017

I've used infused on my Magblade as it increases the enchant on spell power but I did not know it was better then sharpened or nirnhoned . Happy accident ? Just two days ago I upgraded to sharpened ... Are you telling me I just blew 200k ? If so , that feels bad man .

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · March 2017

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I've used infused on my Magblade as it increases the enchant on spell power but I did not know it was better then sharpened or nirnhoned . Happy accident ? Just two days ago I upgraded to sharpened ... Are you telling me I just blew 200k ? If so , that feels bad man .

infused is better then nirnhoned, not sharpened, you did not blow it.

FloppyTouch · March 2017

I'm trying to improve my dps on my mdk rn I'm useing 5 BSW divines 3 willpower ring/neck grothdarr 2 and gold 2 destro staffs sharpen best dps was 30k

If I get moondancr and vma staffs infused and replace willpower that would be just a little less then sharpen?

Masel · March 2017

FloppyTouch wrote: »

I'm trying to improve my dps on my mdk rn I'm useing 5 BSW divines 3 willpower ring/neck grothdarr 2 and gold 2 destro staffs sharpen best dps was 30k

If I get moondancr and vma staffs infused and replace willpower that would be just a little less then sharpen?

No, you'd also need to replace BSW with spinner. The spinner 5-piece is basically a little weaker version of sharpened and increases your damage by 8% in PvE, while the BSW 5-piece gives you less than that. It enables you to use precise/infused/nirnhoned vMA and Moondancer/IA staffs.

FloppyTouch · March 2017

Masel92 wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

I'm trying to improve my dps on my mdk rn I'm useing 5 BSW divines 3 willpower ring/neck grothdarr 2 and gold 2 destro staffs sharpen best dps was 30k

If I get moondancr and vma staffs infused and replace willpower that would be just a little less then sharpen?

No, you'd also need to replace BSW with spinner. The spinner 5-piece is basically a little weaker version of sharpened and increases your damage by 8% in PvE, while the BSW 5-piece gives you less than that. It enables you to use precise/infused/nirnhoned vMA and Moondancer/IA staffs.

Ohhhh okay tysm

NiclasFridholm · March 2017

Have actually had interesting results using Spinner-Scathing/BSW, this way I can run Precise X2 on DW (templar) without losing to much pen. You lose out on minor slayer but if groupbuffs are good that buff is meh anyways.

Masel · March 2017

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

Great analysis! I just updated the UESP Build Editor to include Elemental Expert/Mighty, Minor Slayer, and Minor Vulnerability (Target) effects in the Effective Spell/Weapon calculation. I've been meaning to update it for a while now and your post gave me nudge I needed. If you or anyone has further ideas on improving the effective power stats just jet me know!

Huge thanks to you for all the work you put in there! I use it to theorycraft a lot lately. A problem I have is the drag and drop option for skills on both desktop and mobile versions. It does not work at all on my Phone. Is there a way that you can solve that somehow? Because I often do not have my laptop with me (traveling through Europe a lot lately, studying is awesome) and would like to be able to test stuff too.

Reorx_Holybeard · March 2017

Masel92 wrote: »

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

Great analysis! I just updated the UESP Build Editor to include Elemental Expert/Mighty, Minor Slayer, and Minor Vulnerability (Target) effects in the Effective Spell/Weapon calculation. I've been meaning to update it for a while now and your post gave me nudge I needed. If you or anyone has further ideas on improving the effective power stats just jet me know!

Huge thanks to you for all the work you put in there! I use it to theorycraft a lot lately. A problem I have is the drag and drop option for skills on both desktop and mobile versions. It does not work at all on my Phone. Is there a way that you can solve that somehow? Because I often do not have my laptop with me (traveling through Europe a lot lately, studying is awesome) and would like to be able to test stuff too.

Yes, we've been meaning to improve it on mobile and have done a little work but getting the drag/drop working on mobile is the next thing we have to figure out.

OldGamerESO · March 2017

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

Great analysis! I just updated the UESP Build Editor to include Elemental Expert/Mighty, Minor Slayer, and Minor Vulnerability (Target) effects in the Effective Spell/Weapon calculation. I've been meaning to update it for a while now and your post gave me nudge I needed. If you or anyone has further ideas on improving the effective power stats just jet me know!

@Reorx_Holybeard Your build editor is responsible for my decreased work productivity

The hours roll by when you are tweaking a build over and over and over. Oh and it is a lot of fun to throw the meta-builds out the window and have the courage to do a unique build. It also saves on gold because the increased chance of the build being viable is so much higher. I can't tell you of the wasteland of gear I have from failed builds.

Masel · March 2017

OldGamerESO wrote: »

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

Great analysis! I just updated the UESP Build Editor to include Elemental Expert/Mighty, Minor Slayer, and Minor Vulnerability (Target) effects in the Effective Spell/Weapon calculation. I've been meaning to update it for a while now and your post gave me nudge I needed. If you or anyone has further ideas on improving the effective power stats just jet me know!

@Reorx_Holybeard Your build editor is responsible for my decreased work productivity The hours roll by when you are tweaking a build over and over and over. Oh and it is a lot of fun to throw the meta-builds out the window and have the courage to do a unique build. It also saves on gold because the increased chance of the build being viable is so much higher. I can't tell you of the wasteland of gear I have from failed builds.

And it saved me from finishing my excel build editor sheet with macros.... Typing all those CP points in the sheet would've taken ages

Still have to find a way to reliably factor in proc sets to assess their contribution to the effective spell/weapon damage. Now that they do not crit anymore it shouldn't be too difficult, but I still can't figure out how...

WalksonGraves · March 2017

@Reorx_Holybeard

The build creator is great but I think you guys forgot about AOE damage (leki, blade cloak)

pizzaow · March 2017

Dammit @Reorx_Holybeard!.. there goes my work productivity for today... and probably most of April.

Seriously, great job on the site, especially the build editor. I can tell a ton of work went into it.

Artis · March 2017

Thanks for the post.

Not sure that the "effective power" is a valuable metric. And the entire post is based on it.

Assuming it is, still have some questions:
1. What is that +9.38%? Saying that self buffed the second setup is stronger? Then why don't you upload a screenshot please, just so we can see it in action.
2. Seriously, the experiment is the king. Show us some screenshots. Or others who have access to some of that gear - post some parses, so we have something to discuss.

All in all, assuming that that "effective power" is an appropriate metric, good job showing that gear only means 5% of that effective power or so. Hopefully, it will stop people from whining about certain weapons of certain sets. However, we still have to see how that effective power translates to DPS, because in the end - that's what matters.

Either way, people, listen to the OP. There's more than 1 way, and the difference is not that large to care, unless you're going for top 1 scores. And even if you do - ping, fps, and battle RNG are way more significant.

GilGalad · March 2017

@Masel92
First of all thank your for the comparison. Most decent theorycrafters should know that basically all setups you can use are within a few percentage range so that outcome is not surprising. Player skill and good weaving will always make a bigger difference than gear. Only for the trial top scores you need to squeeze out everything out of your gear.

I have another question that is related to weaving:
Does your effective spellpower include weaving at all, since it scales differently?
Many people forget that weaving scales roughly with (magicka + 40*spelldmg), therefore sets like Spinner, TBS and Necropotence will loose some more dmg compared to Julianos or BSW.
When I do calculations like this I always include weaving with an error rate of around 25% in addition to the effective ability spellpower.

s7732425ub17_ESO · March 2017

The main problem with not running sharpened is AOE damage. Do you think your healer and tank are going to put debuffs on every mob in every pull in a vet dungeon or Trial? No. If you don't have sharpened, you will notice a significant decrease in your AOE damage.

Xvorg · March 2017

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

The main problem with not running sharpened is AOE damage. Do you think your healer and tank are going to put debuffs on every mob in every pull in a vet dungeon or Trial? No. If you don't have sharpened, you will notice a significant decrease in your AOE damage.

lightning heavy splashes AFAIK