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No need for sharpened - the mathematical way.

  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    GilGalad wrote: »
    @Masel92
    First of all thank your for the comparison. Most decent theorycrafters should know that basically all setups you can use are within a few percentage range so that outcome is not surprising. Player skill and good weaving will always make a bigger difference than gear. Only for the trial top scores you need to squeeze out everything out of your gear.

    I have another question that is related to weaving:
    Does your effective spellpower include weaving at all, since it scales differently?
    Many people forget that weaving scales roughly with (magicka + 40*spelldmg), therefore sets like Spinner, TBS and Necropotence will loose some more dmg compared to Julianos or BSW.
    When I do calculations like this I always include weaving with an error rate of around 25% in addition to the effective ability spellpower.

    Concerning your question: nope, weaving is not part of the calculation, and neither are proc based sets that give a flat damage value as viper/illambris etc. In this case it doesn't matter because the setups all use the same proc set, but in general that makes them hard to compare in theory.

    I know that weaving scales with 40.5 to 1, which means that sets that give more spell damage will give you additional damage from weaving (another advantage for BSW, as if it needed more...). But this post was just to show that you can work with weapons that are non-sharpened and that you're not forced to use one specific setup to be viable in endgame content. Rotation/Knowledge of Spawns/Canceling is so much more important than the additional damage that BSW gives you over Julianos for example, as @Artis and you said above.

    Artis, I can't show you all of it in action, because I simply don't have all the gear ready to compare which is one of the reasons I posted it in the first place. I'm not ready to put myself to the geargrind that is needed to get the BiS-Setup, and I wanted to show that you simply don't need to to stay good in endgame PvE. The above calculations are based on the power that the sets have if you perform the exact same fight with the exact same rotation. The %-Value is a reference to the considered BSW-Meta setup. I have builds on here that use different ones out of the setups from above.

    For example if you don't have a sharpened vMA inferno/lightning staff, you can use spinner with precise/infused Infallible aether staffs and precise/infused/nirnhoned vMA staffs and keep the 4k penetration on the back bar for your AoE.


    And if you don't have a sharpened IA/MD staff but all sharpened vMA staffs as it is the case for me (just won't drop), you can just run spinner precise/infused staffs on the front bar and 4 aether on body and jewelry. Those setups are very close to the meta and I repeatadly hear people saying spinner is a pvp set. Not at all, it is a very good replacement for sharpened if you simply don't want to run a random sharpened staff on your front bar.

    PC EU

    All Trial Trifecta Titles Done!

    Youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA
  • Artis
    Artis
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Would be curious to see any of the two setups compared to see how the difference in DPS compares to that predicted difference if "effective power". I have some spinner including a sharpened fire staff, or could buy other traits much cheaper. Maybe I can send you a list of what I have and you can do calculations to see what powers they have and then I do some dps tests with them?

    And Idk, I get it how you get that percentage - by comparing two values of power. But this part is still unclear:

    "The above calculations are based on the power that the sets have if you perform the exact same fight with the exact same rotation."

    What is that power? What is it measured in, what are the units? DPS? damage? spell damage? I don't get it how it's defined and calculated, and therefore not 100% sure it's showing anything.
  • Draqone
    Draqone
    ✭✭✭✭
    Artis wrote: »
    What is that power? What is it measured in, what are the units? DPS? damage? spell damage? I don't get it how it's defined and calculated, and therefore not 100% sure it's showing anything.

    Your abilities' damage is determined by:

    X * Y

    Where X is the skills damage coefficient and Y is the effective spell power (which can be approximated by spell_damage + max_magicka / 10 and then accounting for crit chance, crit damage and buff/debuff uptime)

    To quote the OP, part that you seemed to ignore:
    The uesp effective spell power includes everything except flat percentage bonuses like elemental expert, minor vulnerability and the exploiter passive, which is why I factored them in afterwards because all three affect basically all damage you deal. Proc sets are also excluded, but all of the setups are exactly similar and have only illambris as proc based set. The burning status effect from BSW is excluded too and will push those percentages a little more.

    Visit uesp for more details.


    Since X is static and coded into the game this analysis aims to find the highest value of Y.

    If you are interested in the coefficients they are listed there:

    http://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php
    Edited by Draqone on April 1, 2017 8:50AM
    ESO Balance:
    “All skills are equal, but some skills are more equal than others.”
  • GilGalad
    GilGalad
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Masel92 wrote: »
    GilGalad wrote: »
    @Masel92
    First of all thank your for the comparison. Most decent theorycrafters should know that basically all setups you can use are within a few percentage range so that outcome is not surprising. Player skill and good weaving will always make a bigger difference than gear. Only for the trial top scores you need to squeeze out everything out of your gear.

    I have another question that is related to weaving:
    Does your effective spellpower include weaving at all, since it scales differently?
    Many people forget that weaving scales roughly with (magicka + 40*spelldmg), therefore sets like Spinner, TBS and Necropotence will loose some more dmg compared to Julianos or BSW.
    When I do calculations like this I always include weaving with an error rate of

    Concerning your question: nope, weaving is not part of the calculation, and neither are proc based sets that give a flat damage value as viper/illambris etc. In this case it doesn't matter because the setups all use the same proc set, but in general that makes them hard to compare in theory.
    [...]
    The above calculations are based on the power that the sets have if you perform the exact same fight with the exact same rotation.

    When you are comparing the same sets with different traits on the weapons it's fine to neglect weaving, but in the moment you compare sets with different magicka and especially different spell dmg levels you have to include light attack dmg, because it can easily add another 1-2% difference. It is right that you compare the exact same rotation, but the rotation you are using completely excludes weaving, which is just not realistic.
    Edited by GilGalad on April 1, 2017 9:11AM
    Animals Unchained | PC EU
    Homestead Theorycrafting
    Math of RNG
  • Artis
    Artis
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Draqone wrote: »
    Artis wrote: »
    What is that power? What is it measured in, what are the units? DPS? damage? spell damage? I don't get it how it's defined and calculated, and therefore not 100% sure it's showing anything.

    Your abilities' damage is determined by:

    X * Y

    Where X is the skills damage coefficient and Y is the effective spell power (which can be approximated by spell_damage + max_magicka / 10 and then accounting for crit chance, crit damage and buff/debuff uptime)

    To quote the OP, part that you seemed to ignore:
    The uesp effective spell power includes everything except flat percentage bonuses like elemental expert, minor vulnerability and the exploiter passive, which is why I factored them in afterwards because all three affect basically all damage you deal. Proc sets are also excluded, but all of the setups are exactly similar and have only illambris as proc based set. The burning status effect from BSW is excluded too and will push those percentages a little more.

    Visit uesp for more details.


    Since X is static and coded into the game this analysis aims to find the highest value of Y.

    If you are interested in the coefficients they are listed there:

    http://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php

    What I'm saying is that I saw his build that supposedly has more power, yet somehow my DPS was higher.

    So again - either that effective power and the way you account for crit etc is not defined correctly or the way it translates into actual DPS is not that clear. I do remember that formula, though yes. So it's like spell power, since magicka/10 adds roughly as much damage as 1 spell power. That link doesn't have anything about crit and stuff.

    My point is - differences in that power are not the same as differences in DPS. Not even sure that they are proportional to them. And from what I've seen so far - it can be so that the power is greater but the DPS is lower. And then I don't even know what's the point of comparing powers when it's the DPS that people are trying to maximize.
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    Artis wrote: »
    Draqone wrote: »
    Artis wrote: »
    What is that power? What is it measured in, what are the units? DPS? damage? spell damage? I don't get it how it's defined and calculated, and therefore not 100% sure it's showing anything.

    Your abilities' damage is determined by:

    X * Y

    Where X is the skills damage coefficient and Y is the effective spell power (which can be approximated by spell_damage + max_magicka / 10 and then accounting for crit chance, crit damage and buff/debuff uptime)

    To quote the OP, part that you seemed to ignore:
    The uesp effective spell power includes everything except flat percentage bonuses like elemental expert, minor vulnerability and the exploiter passive, which is why I factored them in afterwards because all three affect basically all damage you deal. Proc sets are also excluded, but all of the setups are exactly similar and have only illambris as proc based set. The burning status effect from BSW is excluded too and will push those percentages a little more.

    Visit uesp for more details.


    Since X is static and coded into the game this analysis aims to find the highest value of Y.

    If you are interested in the coefficients they are listed there:

    http://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php

    What I'm saying is that I saw his build that supposedly has more power, yet somehow my DPS was higher.

    So again - either that effective power and the way you account for crit etc is not defined correctly or the way it translates into actual DPS is not that clear. I do remember that formula, though yes. So it's like spell power, since magicka/10 adds roughly as much damage as 1 spell power. That link doesn't have anything about crit and stuff.

    My point is - differences in that power are not the same as differences in DPS. Not even sure that they are proportional to them. And from what I've seen so far - it can be so that the power is greater but the DPS is lower. And then I don't even know what's the point of comparing powers when it's the DPS that people are trying to maximize.

    The effective spell power is the basis of your DPS. It includes:

    1. your maximum magicka with a conversion ratio of 10.5 to 1
    2. Your spell damage
    3. Your spell critical
    4. Your spell critical damage modifier
    5. Your Resistance mitigation of enemies' armor
    6. Your flat percentage increases in damage

    Those things are everything that determines your damage in ESO and the effective spell power shows how hard your skills will hit. The higher it is the higher your damage is. If you perform the same rotation with all the above setups, E.g. Against a skeleton dummy, the average difference (with a standard deviation of course) in DPS in comparison to the BiS setup will be the above mentioned percentages.

    I could list all the respective formulas, but that wouldn't be helping here.

    So basically before you work on your rotation, this metric is a very good way to check whether the build you plan on using is actually worth testing.

    The reason for you doing supposedly more DPS is that my rotation is simply different and not in any way optimised, as I'm not a min/maxer who likes to stand hours in front of a dummy. Believe me I'm a practical guy myself, but I just wanted to show people that this discussion of 'sharpened or not viable' is ridiculously narrow when it comes to actual math inherent to the game.
    PC EU

    All Trial Trifecta Titles Done!

    Youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA
  • Karacule_Fairystar
    Karacule_Fairystar
    ✭✭✭
    can I have a TLDR shortest version possible? <3
  • Artis
    Artis
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Masel92 wrote: »

    The effective spell power is the basis of your DPS. It includes:

    1. your maximum magicka with a conversion ratio of 10.5 to 1
    2. Your spell damage
    3. Your spell critical
    4. Your spell critical damage modifier
    5. Your Resistance mitigation of enemies' armor
    6. Your flat percentage increases in damage

    Those things are everything that determines your damage in ESO and the effective spell power shows how hard your skills will hit. The higher it is the higher your damage is. If you perform the same rotation with all the above setups, E.g. Against a skeleton dummy, the average difference (with a standard deviation of course) in DPS in comparison to the BiS setup will be the above mentioned percentages.

    I could list all the respective formulas, but that wouldn't be helping here.

    So basically before you work on your rotation, this metric is a very good way to check whether the build you plan on using is actually worth testing.

    The reason for you doing supposedly more DPS is that my rotation is simply different and not in any way optimised, as I'm not a min/maxer who likes to stand hours in front of a dummy. Believe me I'm a practical guy myself, but I just wanted to show people that this discussion of 'sharpened or not viable' is ridiculously narrow when it comes to actual math inherent to the game.

    The formulas would help probably. And no, I haven't spent hours in front of a dummy. I see how it can be a check whether it's worth testing, but still, not sure it actually says how DPS compares. Either formulas aren't correct which I can't say since I didn't see them, or simply the way it translates into DPS is not what you expect. Or something is not taken into account.

    p.s. also iirc rotations are roughly the same according to skills used shown in combat metrics.
    Edited by Artis on April 2, 2017 8:23AM
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    Artis wrote: »
    Masel92 wrote: »

    The effective spell power is the basis of your DPS. It includes:

    1. your maximum magicka with a conversion ratio of 10.5 to 1
    2. Your spell damage
    3. Your spell critical
    4. Your spell critical damage modifier
    5. Your Resistance mitigation of enemies' armor
    6. Your flat percentage increases in damage

    Those things are everything that determines your damage in ESO and the effective spell power shows how hard your skills will hit. The higher it is the higher your damage is. If you perform the same rotation with all the above setups, E.g. Against a skeleton dummy, the average difference (with a standard deviation of course) in DPS in comparison to the BiS setup will be the above mentioned percentages.

    I could list all the respective formulas, but that wouldn't be helping here.

    So basically before you work on your rotation, this metric is a very good way to check whether the build you plan on using is actually worth testing.

    The reason for you doing supposedly more DPS is that my rotation is simply different and not in any way optimised, as I'm not a min/maxer who likes to stand hours in front of a dummy. Believe me I'm a practical guy myself, but I just wanted to show people that this discussion of 'sharpened or not viable' is ridiculously narrow when it comes to actual math inherent to the game.

    The formulas would help probably. And no, I haven't spent hours in front of a dummy. I see how it can be a check whether it's worth testing, but still, not sure it actually says how DPS compares. Either formulas aren't correct which I can't say since I didn't see them, or simply the way it translates into DPS is not what you expect. Or something is not taken into account.

    Okay here we go:

    EffectiveSpellPower =(round(Magicka/10.5) + SpellDamage)*(1 + SpellCrit*AttackSpellCritDamage)*(1 + CP.MagicDamageDone)*(AttackSpellMitigation)*(1 + Target.DamageTaken)*(1 + DamageDone)

    So Max Magicka, Spell Damage, Spell Crit, Spell Crit Damage, CP % Damage Increases, Spell Penetration and Target Debuffs and Additonal Flat % increases (notably minor slayer) are included.

    Here's one little issue: Light and Heavy Attacks scale with 40.5 to 1, not 10.5 to 1, so for them, Spell damage is a lot more important. To include that factor, we'd have to assume the portion of DPS they do and add in another variable for it, such as:

    EffectiveLAHASpellPower =(round(Magicka/40.5) + SpellDamage)*(1 + SpellCrit*AttackSpellCritDamage)*(1 + CP.MagicDamageDone)*(AttackSpellMitigation)*(1 + Target.DamageTaken)*(1 + DamageDone)

    To include proc based sets (monster sets, viper, red mountain etc.), we'd have to rewrite the formula and translate the flat damage per second they do in effective spell power. I'm not sure how to do this yet, but the formula should look somewhat like this:

    EffectiveProcPower =(ProcDamageperSecond*TargetsHit*(Uptime/Cooldown))*EffectiveSpellPowerCoefficient*(1 + CP.MagicDamageDone)*(1+CP.DotDamageDone)*(AttackSpellMitigation)*(1 + Target.DamageTaken)*(1 + DamageDone)

    Where EffectiveSpellPowerCoefficient would be the value that translates the set damage into effective spell power and DotDamageDone is only enabled with a dummy variable(1 or 0) if the proc set is actually a Damage over time effect or not.


    Additonal Formulas:

    SpellCritDamage =
    (CP.SpellCritDamage + Skill.CritDamage + Mundus.CritDamage + Mundus.CritDamage * Item.Divines + Set.CritDamage + Item.CritDamage + Buff.CritDamage + 0.5)*(1 + Skill2.CritDamage)

    AttackSpellMitigation =(((Target.SpellResist + Target.SpellDebuff)*(1 - Skill2.SpellPenetration) - SpellPenetration)*(-1/(EffectiveLevel * 1000)) + 1)*(1 - Target.DefenseBonus)
    Edited by Masel on April 2, 2017 8:35AM
    PC EU

    All Trial Trifecta Titles Done!

    Youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA
  • Artis
    Artis
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    can I have a TLDR shortest version possible? <3

    Yes - you can run other setups, not just sharpened weapons and not just sharpened vMA in particular. THere are other setups that are pretty much equal in power.
  • Wir2ality
    Wir2ality
    man this so goin over me head i m such a noob
  • Wir2ality
    Wir2ality
    no wonder some guys just melt s**t away in seconds . this game's deep
    Edited by Wir2ality on April 7, 2017 3:22AM
  • dpencil
    dpencil
    ✭✭✭✭
    Some things I've seen comparing Effective Spell Damage to actual DPS:

    UESP does not calculate:
    - Thaumaturge's effect on aoe skills, and the Exploiter passive, so ESD will always look higher if you put all points into the right side of the blue tree, even though you could get more dps with 75 points into Thaumaturge
    - Destro staff's buff to staff attacks and how that increases DPS on Maelstrom vs non-Maelstrom builds
    - The effect of monster set procs
    - The additional dps of pets (for example, the Twilight Matriarch adds as much if not a bit more dps to a pet sorc over Bound Aegis, but this will not be accounted for in the ESD)

    I agree that using ESD can be helpful, but it doesn't give the complete picture, at least not without doing some further calculations on top of what is provided on the UESP.
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