Sharpened Vs Nirnhoned

kadar · March 2017

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

Does resistance count towards bleeds? I know bleeds are unblockable, but not sure about resistance.

Last night in my drunken wizdom I decided to "play the way you want to play" and golded a 2H sharpened axe. The results were my Biting Jabs hitting like a wet paper bag full of baby ***, compared to my nirnhoned daggers, however if the bleeds ignore resist it may be worth it.

Bleeds are mitigated by resist.

No. Bleeds bypass any resistance.

Huh. News to me. Got a source?

No. I´ve tested it and friends too but i dont have shots anymore was some months ago.

Well... I assume that because a bleed is a DoT, and DoTs are mitigated by resist, that bleeds should be mitigated by resist. If they are not, that almost seems like a bug or something.

What bleed did you test that wasn't mitigated by resist?

Are DoTs blockable typically? Bc I know that bleeds are not blockable...

Yes DoTs are blockable. There are exceptions though that deal un-blockable damage like curse. Easiest to see with skills like Rapid Strikes are Jabs (which are both considered DoTs).

Not exactly, those skills you mentionned are channels and all channels are blockable. However DoTs like Poison Injection and Rending Slashes, I don't think they are blockable...

Well I mentioned those 2 skills because they are in fact considered DoTs based on ZOS' definition-- both skills scale up with Thaumaturge which only buffs damage over time effects. Whether they are further broken down into channels/actual DoTs/bleeds after that, I don't know. They seem to consider anything that isn't instant damage a DoT.

I guess I assumed that since I know that some DoTs are blockable, the rest would be as well. I now see that's pretty silly actually, haha.

Masel · March 2017

May I suggest this thread to all of you who say: sharpened is always better.... It is only better if you want to get yourself into the awful geargrind the BiS setups require. I have yet to drop sharpened IA/MD staffs E.g. (have both sharpened lightning and inferno vMA staffs, and I see so many people grinding the same thing over and over for it... Just settle for something that is maybe 3% weaker and do something that is fun!

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3946813#Comment_3946813

I will do a similar thing for stamina characters next week... Nirnhoned is in fact very underperforming (weaker than infused...), but you can make infused, charged and precise very workable and definetely worth running and staying within a few % points of sharpened weapons.

xblackroxe · March 2017

Masel92 wrote: »

May I suggest this thread to all of you who say: sharpened is always better.... It is only better if you want to get yourself into the awful geargrind the BiS setups require. I have yet to drop sharpened IA/MD staffs E.g. (have both sharpened lightning and inferno vMA staffs, and I see so many people grinding the same thing over and over for it... Just settle for something that is maybe 3% weaker and do something that is fun!

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3946813#Comment_3946813

I will do a similar thing for stamina characters next week... Nirnhoned is in fact very underperforming (weaker than infused...), but you can make infused, charged and precise very workable and definetely worth running and staying within a few % points of sharpened weapons.

Well not really. Sharpened is normally a 8%+ flat damage increase no other trait comes even close.
And sure anybody who doesn´t want its not like you can´t clear content without sharpened but if you want to have the best dps then you gonna have to grind for sharpened.

Whats fun and whats not depends on the person.

bg22 · March 2017

So, it turns out sharpened is NOT ALWAYS better. I conducted the following test to see which DW combination performs best for overland mobs. Performed on normal mobs, and Bull Netch's outside of Mournhold.

Here are the results from best to worst:

1. Sharpened main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5231 per jab strike
2. Nirnhoned main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5100 per jab strike
3. Sharpened main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5023 per jab strike
4. Nirnhoned main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5013 per jab strike

Eirikir · March 2017

Penetration should always be a man's main focus....

starkerealm · March 2017

Eirikir wrote: »

Penetration should always be a man's main focus....

Not the reaction .gif I was originally looking for, but, hey.

dday3six · March 2017

bg22 wrote: »

So, it turns out sharpened is NOT ALWAYS better. I conducted the following test to see which DW combination performs best for overland mobs. Performed on normal mobs, and Bull Netch's outside of Mournhold.

Here are the results from best to worst:

1. Sharpened main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5231 per jab strike
2. Nirnhoned main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5100 per jab strike
3. Sharpened main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5023 per jab strike
4. Nirnhoned main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5013 per jab strike

At this point I'd just say use whatever you want. You seem bound and determined to find a testing method, regardless of how impractical it is, that you can use to justify not using Sharpened. Save yourself the trouble and just use whatever. It's not likely to stop you from being able to clear content.

Bobby_V_Rockit · March 2017

bg22 wrote: »

So, it turns out sharpened is NOT ALWAYS better. I conducted the following test to see which DW combination performs best for overland mobs. Performed on normal mobs, and Bull Netch's outside of Mournhold.

Here are the results from best to worst:

1. Sharpened main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5231 per jab strike
2. Nirnhoned main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5100 per jab strike
3. Sharpened main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5023 per jab strike
4. Nirnhoned main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5013 per jab strike

Interesting, have you tested on a target dummy? I'm genuinely curious, I'll give it a go tonight.

kadar · March 2017

Masel92 wrote: »

May I suggest this thread to all of you who say: sharpened is always better.... It is only better if you want to get yourself into the awful geargrind the BiS setups require. I have yet to drop sharpened IA/MD staffs E.g. (have both sharpened lightning and inferno vMA staffs, and I see so many people grinding the same thing over and over for it... Just settle for something that is maybe 3% weaker and do something that is fun!

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3946813#Comment_3946813

I will do a similar thing for stamina characters next week... Nirnhoned is in fact very underperforming (weaker than infused...), but you can make infused, charged and precise very workable and definetely worth running and staying within a few % points of sharpened weapons.

You've gotta remember that most of the time folks say "Sharp is always better" they are talking in the context of vTrial or vDungeon bosses.

bg22 wrote: »

So, it turns out sharpened is NOT ALWAYS better. I conducted the following test to see which DW combination performs best for overland mobs. Performed on normal mobs, and Bull Netch's outside of Mournhold.

Here are the results from best to worst:

1. Sharpened main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5231 per jab strike
2. Nirnhoned main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5100 per jab strike
3. Sharpened main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5023 per jab strike
4. Nirnhoned main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5013 per jab strike

^These results are likely because a bull netch has a lower amount of resistance than a dungeon/Trial boss or a player. I don't know the exact value, but based on your results I'd put it at around 9-11k. Like I mentioned above, "Sharp is best" is said as a true general statement and in the context of Dungeon/Trial bosses or players (more resist than a bull netch). Situations abound where Precise or Nirn outshine Sharp, but folks generally don't choose to optimize their builds for those situations (e.g. trash pulls or squishy players).

SublimeSparo · March 2017

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Your crit is extremely low. 80% is more or less the norm on non-khajiit stamina builds.

Clever alchemist is trash. Use hundings instead, even Twice-born star is better. Optimal is Two-Fanged snake.

Too much recovery and too much weapon damage, not enough crit (and probably max stamina). Why is your weapon damage that high?

Sharpened is a 12% increase in damage done, Nirnhoned is about 2.7% and Precise is 3.4%.

Sharp is 8% increase sir. It's 1% for every 650 penetration. 5280/650=8.12

In pvp yes but for pve mobs 1% is 500 pen iirc, as players are technically lvl 65, and mobs lv 50

bg22 · March 2017

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

So, it turns out sharpened is NOT ALWAYS better. I conducted the following test to see which DW combination performs best for overland mobs. Performed on normal mobs, and Bull Netch's outside of Mournhold.

Here are the results from best to worst:

1. Sharpened main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5231 per jab strike
2. Nirnhoned main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5100 per jab strike
3. Sharpened main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5023 per jab strike
4. Nirnhoned main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5013 per jab strike

Interesting, have you tested on a target dummy? I'm genuinely curious, I'll give it a go tonight.

Not yet. I'm also going to test it on a buddy later tomorrow and see if the results very. Let me know how your testing turns out.

bg22 · March 2017

dday3six wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

So, it turns out sharpened is NOT ALWAYS better. I conducted the following test to see which DW combination performs best for overland mobs. Performed on normal mobs, and Bull Netch's outside of Mournhold.

Here are the results from best to worst:

1. Sharpened main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5231 per jab strike
2. Nirnhoned main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5100 per jab strike
3. Sharpened main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5023 per jab strike
4. Nirnhoned main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5013 per jab strike

At this point I'd just say use whatever you want. You seem bound and determined to find a testing method, regardless of how impractical it is, that you can use to justify not using Sharpened. Save yourself the trouble and just use whatever. It's not likely to stop you from being able to clear content.

Hitting things is impractical?

What testing method should I use? I've tried all the emotes and they don't seem to provide any feedback about my weapons...

SublimeSparo · March 2017

bg22 wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

So, it turns out sharpened is NOT ALWAYS better. I conducted the following test to see which DW combination performs best for overland mobs. Performed on normal mobs, and Bull Netch's outside of Mournhold.

Here are the results from best to worst:

1. Sharpened main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5231 per jab strike
2. Nirnhoned main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5100 per jab strike
3. Sharpened main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5023 per jab strike
4. Nirnhoned main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5013 per jab strike

At this point I'd just say use whatever you want. You seem bound and determined to find a testing method, regardless of how impractical it is, that you can use to justify not using Sharpened. Save yourself the trouble and just use whatever. It's not likely to stop you from being able to clear content.

Hitting things is impractical?

What testing method should I use? I've tried all the emotes and they don't seem to provide any feedback about my weapons...

How are you conducting your tests, to test them fairly you'd need to remove all other gear, jewellery, cp, food, skills on your bar, passives etc
Testing against a dummy would be more optimal than overland 'mobs' as different mobs may have different resists. (Ignoring the fact that you can literally punch overland mobs to death therefore rendering weapons useless let alone traits)

zyk · March 2017

bg22 wrote: »

So, it turns out sharpened is NOT ALWAYS better. I conducted the following test to see which DW combination performs best for overland mobs. Performed on normal mobs, and Bull Netch's outside of Mournhold.

Here are the results from best to worst:

1. Sharpened main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5231 per jab strike
2. Nirnhoned main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5100 per jab strike
3. Sharpened main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5023 per jab strike
4. Nirnhoned main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5013 per jab strike

Overland mobs have much lower resistances than dungeon mobs. Off the top of my head, Overland mobs have resistances of approx 9100 and Dungeon mobs have resistances of approx 18,200.

Masel · March 2017

xblackroxe wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

May I suggest this thread to all of you who say: sharpened is always better.... It is only better if you want to get yourself into the awful geargrind the BiS setups require. I have yet to drop sharpened IA/MD staffs E.g. (have both sharpened lightning and inferno vMA staffs, and I see so many people grinding the same thing over and over for it... Just settle for something that is maybe 3% weaker and do something that is fun!

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3946813#Comment_3946813

I will do a similar thing for stamina characters next week... Nirnhoned is in fact very underperforming (weaker than infused...), but you can make infused, charged and precise very workable and definetely worth running and staying within a few % points of sharpened weapons.

Well not really. Sharpened is normally a 8%+ flat damage increase no other trait comes even close.
And sure anybody who doesn´t want its not like you can´t clear content without sharpened but if you want to have the best dps then you gonna have to grind for sharpened.

Whats fun and whats not depends on the person.

Have you even looked at the thread? I completed all HM trials without having sharpened IA/MD weapons and the math shows that you can stay within 5% of the considered BiS-Weapons with using non-sharpened weapons and the spinner set in PvE. I use those setups in Raids. And Sharpened is more than an 8% damage increase...
You said earlier in this thread: "why would you want to waste a 5-piece bonus for something that you can get in a trait?" Because you can simply trade off a trait and a five piece and you can NOT know if you ever get the weapon you desperately want, because that's how RNG works.
I know that you're in Hodor and that you guys fill the top leaderboard spots, but discussions like this lead to people going into mindless grinds that they do not necessarily need to do content at all...

I just showed that you don't need sharpened weapons to stay within a viable and competitive range of Damage, that's all. I know what is Best in Slot, but there is no need to tell people here that they need sharpened weapons to stay viable in Endgame PvE content.

xblackroxe · March 2017

Masel92 wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

May I suggest this thread to all of you who say: sharpened is always better.... It is only better if you want to get yourself into the awful geargrind the BiS setups require. I have yet to drop sharpened IA/MD staffs E.g. (have both sharpened lightning and inferno vMA staffs, and I see so many people grinding the same thing over and over for it... Just settle for something that is maybe 3% weaker and do something that is fun!

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3946813#Comment_3946813

I will do a similar thing for stamina characters next week... Nirnhoned is in fact very underperforming (weaker than infused...), but you can make infused, charged and precise very workable and definetely worth running and staying within a few % points of sharpened weapons.

Well not really. Sharpened is normally a 8%+ flat damage increase no other trait comes even close.
And sure anybody who doesn´t want its not like you can´t clear content without sharpened but if you want to have the best dps then you gonna have to grind for sharpened.

Whats fun and whats not depends on the person.

Have you even looked at the thread? I completed all HM trials without having sharpened IA/MD weapons and the math shows that you can stay within 5% of the considered BiS-Weapons with using non-sharpened weapons and the spinner set in PvE. I use those setups in Raids. And Sharpened is more than an 8% damage increase...
You said earlier in this thread: "why would you want to waste a 5-piece bonus for something that you can get in a trait?" Because you can simply trade off a trait and a five piece and you can NOT know if you ever get the weapon you desperately want, because that's how RNG works.
I know that you're in Hodor and that you guys fill the top leaderboard spots, but discussions like this lead to people going into mindless grinds that they do not necessarily need to do content at all...

I just showed that you don't need sharpened weapons to stay within a viable and competitive range of Damage, that's all. I know what is Best in Slot, but there is no need to tell people here that they need sharpened weapons to stay viable in Endgame PvE content.

I never said anything about not being able to do that. For almost a year i only had precise weapons because nothing better ever dropped and we still got no1 scores. Still I was quite noticeably lacking in dps.
You can clear content without sharpened you can even be really good without sharpened but you will never get the maximum out of your char.

And if you don't want that it's completely fine but if you want to be the "best" there's simply no way around sharp.

Bobby_V_Rockit · March 2017

bg22 wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

So, it turns out sharpened is NOT ALWAYS better. I conducted the following test to see which DW combination performs best for overland mobs. Performed on normal mobs, and Bull Netch's outside of Mournhold.

Here are the results from best to worst:

1. Sharpened main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5231 per jab strike
2. Nirnhoned main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5100 per jab strike
3. Sharpened main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5023 per jab strike
4. Nirnhoned main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5013 per jab strike

Interesting, have you tested on a target dummy? I'm genuinely curious, I'll give it a go tonight.

Not yet. I'm also going to test it on a buddy later tomorrow and see if the results very. Let me know how your testing turns out.

Alrighty, I will use the standard DPS dummy using a single hit of rapid strikes (5 times, each measured seperately). Testing with all legendary gear, 5x VO (3x jewellery, chest and boots) 5x Night Mother's Gaze (daggers, 3x armour pieces) and one Velidreth shoulder, I dropped second piece due to RNG proc chance.:

Nirnhoned Dagger + Sharpened Dagger:
- 11063
- 11770
- 12380
- 12380
- 12380

11994 average

Sharpened and Sharpened:
- 9049
- 9756
- 12176
- 12176
- 12807

11192 average

Sharpened + Nirnhoned:
- 8541
- 9795
- 10196
- 10213
- 11434

10035 average

So there's that, my crit chance is 76% so I ran 5 tests of each combo trying to at least get an idea of what does what. I'm liking nirnhoned honestly, but 2x sharpened DID have the highest on 1of 15 tests. But Nirnhoned did actually outperform it overall.

I'd love to see if anyone else gets similar results or completely different. That was fun lol.

Royaji · March 2017

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

So, it turns out sharpened is NOT ALWAYS better. I conducted the following test to see which DW combination performs best for overland mobs. Performed on normal mobs, and Bull Netch's outside of Mournhold.

Here are the results from best to worst:

1. Sharpened main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5231 per jab strike
2. Nirnhoned main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5100 per jab strike
3. Sharpened main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5023 per jab strike
4. Nirnhoned main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5013 per jab strike

Interesting, have you tested on a target dummy? I'm genuinely curious, I'll give it a go tonight.

Not yet. I'm also going to test it on a buddy later tomorrow and see if the results very. Let me know how your testing turns out.

Alrighty, I will use the standard DPS dummy using a single hit of rapid strikes (5 times, each measured seperately). Testing with all legendary gear, 5x VO (3x jewellery, chest and boots) 5x Night Mother's Gaze (daggers, 3x armour pieces) and one Velidreth shoulder, I dropped second piece due to RNG proc chance.:

Nirnhoned Dagger + Sharpened Dagger:
- 11063
- 11770
- 12380
- 12380
- 12380

11994 average

Sharpened and Sharpened:
- 9049
- 9756
- 12176
- 12176
- 12807

11192 average

Sharpened + Nirnhoned:
- 8541
- 9795
- 10196
- 10213
- 11434

10035 average

So there's that, my crit chance is 76% so I ran 5 tests of each combo trying to at least get an idea of what does what. I'm liking nirnhoned honestly, but 2x sharpened DID have the highest on 1of 15 tests. But Nirnhoned did actually outperform it overall.

I'd love to see if anyone else gets similar results or completely different. That was fun lol.

This test actually gave you nothing. Same as Veli, NMG has a chance to reduce resistance so it interferes with your results. You can see it from big jumps between first two and the rest of the numbers in sharp-sharp and sharp-nirn tests. I would also recommend going for at least 10-20 tests. 5 is not enough to make viable conclusions.

xblackroxe · March 2017

Im gonna get you all some nice proof of sharpened > nirn when im back home.

Bobby_V_Rockit · March 2017

Royaji wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

So, it turns out sharpened is NOT ALWAYS better. I conducted the following test to see which DW combination performs best for overland mobs. Performed on normal mobs, and Bull Netch's outside of Mournhold.

Here are the results from best to worst:

1. Sharpened main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5231 per jab strike
2. Nirnhoned main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5100 per jab strike
3. Sharpened main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5023 per jab strike
4. Nirnhoned main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5013 per jab strike

Interesting, have you tested on a target dummy? I'm genuinely curious, I'll give it a go tonight.

Not yet. I'm also going to test it on a buddy later tomorrow and see if the results very. Let me know how your testing turns out.

Alrighty, I will use the standard DPS dummy using a single hit of rapid strikes (5 times, each measured seperately). Testing with all legendary gear, 5x VO (3x jewellery, chest and boots) 5x Night Mother's Gaze (daggers, 3x armour pieces) and one Velidreth shoulder, I dropped second piece due to RNG proc chance.:

Nirnhoned Dagger + Sharpened Dagger:
- 11063
- 11770
- 12380
- 12380
- 12380

11994 average

Sharpened and Sharpened:
- 9049
- 9756
- 12176
- 12176
- 12807

11192 average

Sharpened + Nirnhoned:
- 8541
- 9795
- 10196
- 10213
- 11434

10035 average

So there's that, my crit chance is 76% so I ran 5 tests of each combo trying to at least get an idea of what does what. I'm liking nirnhoned honestly, but 2x sharpened DID have the highest on 1of 15 tests. But Nirnhoned did actually outperform it overall.

I'd love to see if anyone else gets similar results or completely different. That was fun lol.

This test actually gave you nothing. Same as Veli, NMG has a chance to reduce resistance so it interferes with your results. You can see it from big jumps between first two and the rest of the numbers in sharp-sharp and sharp-nirn tests. I would also recommend going for at least 10-20 tests. 5 is not enough to make viable conclusions.

^ 20 tests it is! I'm aware it's not viable results as the results I posted have a difference coefficient of more than 0.05% making any results scientifically possible due to chance. But as a very broad abstract, this is how they went based on what 1 of 4 SHOULD have done.

Testing against a null hypothesis (no difference between the two) we see there IS a difference and I'll do more. Now, as I am using NMG, wouldnt that be the most appropriate baseline? I dont care if non-set does more or less, I only care if nirnhoned offers crafter sets a higher degree.

Edit: due to the small sample size, less than 99.95% means results could be a result of chance (ie. more than 0.05%)

Nifty2g · March 2017

I just can't deal with what is in this thread... I'll just leave this here. Also just a tip for the people doing *tests* it's more efficient if you guys actually post screencaps and such and not just numbers. Chances are most of the time the numbers are not correct.

Asayre wrote: »

TL;DR – For PvE DPS: Sharpened > Precise > Nirnhoned
Precise can be better for organised groups running most armour debuffs in the game

When evaluating between these three item traits it is imperative to recall the average damage formula

where

The skill coefficient, a, depends on the skill in question and an excellent list of skill coefficients can be found at http://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkills.php. b is around 10.5 for most abilities. Attacker Bonus refers to certain Champion Points like Elemental Expert, Mighty or Thaumathurge and includes certain skills and passives such as Major or Minor Berserk. For simplicity, we can just set this to one and ignore it for the large part.

Armour debuffs include Major/Minor Breach, 5 piece bonus of Roar of Alkosh and the Crushing Enchantment. An example of percentage penetration is Penetrating Magic (Destruction Staff). Flat Penetration includes the base penetration of 100, Concentration and Spell Erosion/Piercing.
In order to compare the three traits, we can convert both the additional flat penetration offered by Sharpened and the extra critical chance into Spell/Weapon Damage. Finally we can convert the Spell/Weapon damage equivalence to an increase in an arbitrary ability tooltip.

I’ll use a generic magicka build as an example, I’ll assume a Magicka pool of 40k and Spell Damage of 3k which is reasonably typical for endgame builds. Only legendary trait values are considered.

Nirnhoned
It increases the tooltip value of a weapon by 11% which in turn increases Spell/Weapon damage by 11% before any buffs. For a staff, this corresponds to a base increase in spell damage of 146 Spell Damage and for dual wielding swords it corresponds to 175 Spell Damage. Typically this base spell damage is buffed by 25% by Major and Minor Sorcery. So you would expect 183 Spell Damage for a staff and 219 Spell Damage for dual wielding swords. Thus if we’re dual wielding swords, Nirnhoned leads to an increase ability tooltip of roughly 3.2%.

Precise
The 7% increased weapon and spell critical can be converted to an equivalent spell damage with the following equation

A reasonably common spell critical for endgame builds is around 60% and a critical modifier between 0.6-0.7 is typical for most magicka builds. This assumes around 30 points in Elfborn which is a fairly common recommendation from my Champion Point optimisation spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Zp9v1Vp4Z7X6zfDfcxTwyAnejv-tEC5LujbXYBiVMDk/edit?usp=sharing) thus the spell damage equivalence for Precise is about

This translates to an increase in average ability tooltip by 3.5%. Note that we can reach this answer quicker by noting that

Sharpened
In a similar fashion to the previous section, the increased physical and spell penetration of Sharpened can be converted to an equivalent spell damage or more directly into an increase in ability tooltip

where Mitigation has been separated into a Sharpened component and everything else. The key concern here is that the Resistance of a target cannot go below zero. Let us consider a typical 4 person dungeon, bosses have around 18k resistance and trash have anywhere from 10 to 18k resistance (http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/2-1-boss-resistance/). The main source of armour debuff is Major Breach (5280) and Flat Penetration for Magicka Characters is at least 4984 (100 base + 4884 Concentration). Flat Penetration is typically higher by around 1-2k depending on the number of points assigned into Spell Erosion. This means the average boss will have about 6.5k resistance and 100% of the Sharpened bonus is used meaning that it increase ability tooltip by

Unfortunately, Sharpened is useless on any mob with less than about 12k resistance as its resistance is already reduced to zero from other sources. So at first glance, the optimal trait seems to be Sharpened for bosses and Precise for trash, similar to the meta on Live.
But there may be another way around this, given that we are reaching unmitigated damage it is reasonable to remove all points from Spell Erosion and apply it all into Elfborn instead. Then a more interesting question would be how much resistance does Sharpened need to remove for it to be equivalent to Precise. Precise provides 3.5% increase in ability tooltip, this value can be achieved if Sharpened removes at least 1750 resistance. My optimal champion point spreadsheet tends to suggest around 30 points in Elfborn which corresponds to this value. Thus it is possible to simply use Sharpened for most trash and all bosses and put 66 points in Elfborn (67 points in Elfborn works the same as 66 points so spent the last point in something else like Staff Expert. In this way Sharpened is acting at worst equivalent to Precise but you get additional points in Elfborn thus increasing your average damage or it significantly outperforms Precise on bosses.

Although I've only discussed magicka builds primarily, this conclusion of using Sharpened in most situations holds true for stamina builds as well. Stamina builds do not have a Flat Penetration skill but this is compensated by several armour debuff methods.

Royaji · March 2017

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

So, it turns out sharpened is NOT ALWAYS better. I conducted the following test to see which DW combination performs best for overland mobs. Performed on normal mobs, and Bull Netch's outside of Mournhold.

Here are the results from best to worst:

1. Sharpened main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5231 per jab strike
2. Nirnhoned main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5100 per jab strike
3. Sharpened main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5023 per jab strike
4. Nirnhoned main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5013 per jab strike

Interesting, have you tested on a target dummy? I'm genuinely curious, I'll give it a go tonight.

Not yet. I'm also going to test it on a buddy later tomorrow and see if the results very. Let me know how your testing turns out.

Alrighty, I will use the standard DPS dummy using a single hit of rapid strikes (5 times, each measured seperately). Testing with all legendary gear, 5x VO (3x jewellery, chest and boots) 5x Night Mother's Gaze (daggers, 3x armour pieces) and one Velidreth shoulder, I dropped second piece due to RNG proc chance.:

Nirnhoned Dagger + Sharpened Dagger:
- 11063
- 11770
- 12380
- 12380
- 12380

11994 average

Sharpened and Sharpened:
- 9049
- 9756
- 12176
- 12176
- 12807

11192 average

Sharpened + Nirnhoned:
- 8541
- 9795
- 10196
- 10213
- 11434

10035 average

So there's that, my crit chance is 76% so I ran 5 tests of each combo trying to at least get an idea of what does what. I'm liking nirnhoned honestly, but 2x sharpened DID have the highest on 1of 15 tests. But Nirnhoned did actually outperform it overall.

I'd love to see if anyone else gets similar results or completely different. That was fun lol.

This test actually gave you nothing. Same as Veli, NMG has a chance to reduce resistance so it interferes with your results. You can see it from big jumps between first two and the rest of the numbers in sharp-sharp and sharp-nirn tests. I would also recommend going for at least 10-20 tests. 5 is not enough to make viable conclusions.

^ 20 tests it is! I'm aware it's not viable results as the results I posted have a difference coefficient of more than 0.05% making any results scientifically possible due to chance. But as a very broad abstract, this is how they went based on what 1 of 4 SHOULD have done.

Testing against a null hypothesis (no difference between the two) we see there IS a difference and I'll do more. Now, as I am using NMG, wouldnt that be the most appropriate baseline? I dont care if non-set does more or less, I only care if nirnhoned offers crafter sets a higher degree.

Edit: due to the small sample size, less than 99.95% means results could be a result of chance (ie. more than 0.05%)

NMG is not a good baseline because it is random. Sometimes the debuff is applied and you hit harder and sometimes it doesn't. The "single attack test" is only viable if you have only one variable. And NMG is a random element which affects your test. If you want to do a full build comparison it's better to do a DPS test over prolonged period of time.

Bobby_V_Rockit · March 2017

Royaji wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

So, it turns out sharpened is NOT ALWAYS better. I conducted the following test to see which DW combination performs best for overland mobs. Performed on normal mobs, and Bull Netch's outside of Mournhold.

Here are the results from best to worst:

1. Sharpened main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5231 per jab strike
2. Nirnhoned main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5100 per jab strike
3. Sharpened main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5023 per jab strike
4. Nirnhoned main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5013 per jab strike

Interesting, have you tested on a target dummy? I'm genuinely curious, I'll give it a go tonight.

Not yet. I'm also going to test it on a buddy later tomorrow and see if the results very. Let me know how your testing turns out.

Alrighty, I will use the standard DPS dummy using a single hit of rapid strikes (5 times, each measured seperately). Testing with all legendary gear, 5x VO (3x jewellery, chest and boots) 5x Night Mother's Gaze (daggers, 3x armour pieces) and one Velidreth shoulder, I dropped second piece due to RNG proc chance.:

Nirnhoned Dagger + Sharpened Dagger:
- 11063
- 11770
- 12380
- 12380
- 12380

11994 average

Sharpened and Sharpened:
- 9049
- 9756
- 12176
- 12176
- 12807

11192 average

Sharpened + Nirnhoned:
- 8541
- 9795
- 10196
- 10213
- 11434

10035 average

So there's that, my crit chance is 76% so I ran 5 tests of each combo trying to at least get an idea of what does what. I'm liking nirnhoned honestly, but 2x sharpened DID have the highest on 1of 15 tests. But Nirnhoned did actually outperform it overall.

I'd love to see if anyone else gets similar results or completely different. That was fun lol.

This test actually gave you nothing. Same as Veli, NMG has a chance to reduce resistance so it interferes with your results. You can see it from big jumps between first two and the rest of the numbers in sharp-sharp and sharp-nirn tests. I would also recommend going for at least 10-20 tests. 5 is not enough to make viable conclusions.

^ 20 tests it is! I'm aware it's not viable results as the results I posted have a difference coefficient of more than 0.05% making any results scientifically possible due to chance. But as a very broad abstract, this is how they went based on what 1 of 4 SHOULD have done.

Testing against a null hypothesis (no difference between the two) we see there IS a difference and I'll do more. Now, as I am using NMG, wouldnt that be the most appropriate baseline? I dont care if non-set does more or less, I only care if nirnhoned offers crafter sets a higher degree.

Edit: due to the small sample size, less than 99.95% means results could be a result of chance (ie. more than 0.05%)

NMG is not a good baseline because it is random. Sometimes the debuff is applied and you hit harder and sometimes it doesn't. The "single attack test" is only viable if you have only one variable. And NMG is a random element which affects your test. If you want to do a full build comparison it's better to do a DPS test over prolonged period of time.

How is it random? It procs on critical hits

Izaki · March 2017

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

So, it turns out sharpened is NOT ALWAYS better. I conducted the following test to see which DW combination performs best for overland mobs. Performed on normal mobs, and Bull Netch's outside of Mournhold.

Here are the results from best to worst:

1. Sharpened main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5231 per jab strike
2. Nirnhoned main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5100 per jab strike
3. Sharpened main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5023 per jab strike
4. Nirnhoned main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5013 per jab strike

Interesting, have you tested on a target dummy? I'm genuinely curious, I'll give it a go tonight.

Not yet. I'm also going to test it on a buddy later tomorrow and see if the results very. Let me know how your testing turns out.

Alrighty, I will use the standard DPS dummy using a single hit of rapid strikes (5 times, each measured seperately). Testing with all legendary gear, 5x VO (3x jewellery, chest and boots) 5x Night Mother's Gaze (daggers, 3x armour pieces) and one Velidreth shoulder, I dropped second piece due to RNG proc chance.:

Nirnhoned Dagger + Sharpened Dagger:
- 11063
- 11770
- 12380
- 12380
- 12380

11994 average

Sharpened and Sharpened:
- 9049
- 9756
- 12176
- 12176
- 12807

11192 average

Sharpened + Nirnhoned:
- 8541
- 9795
- 10196
- 10213
- 11434

10035 average

So there's that, my crit chance is 76% so I ran 5 tests of each combo trying to at least get an idea of what does what. I'm liking nirnhoned honestly, but 2x sharpened DID have the highest on 1of 15 tests. But Nirnhoned did actually outperform it overall.

I'd love to see if anyone else gets similar results or completely different. That was fun lol.

This test actually gave you nothing. Same as Veli, NMG has a chance to reduce resistance so it interferes with your results. You can see it from big jumps between first two and the rest of the numbers in sharp-sharp and sharp-nirn tests. I would also recommend going for at least 10-20 tests. 5 is not enough to make viable conclusions.

^ 20 tests it is! I'm aware it's not viable results as the results I posted have a difference coefficient of more than 0.05% making any results scientifically possible due to chance. But as a very broad abstract, this is how they went based on what 1 of 4 SHOULD have done.

Testing against a null hypothesis (no difference between the two) we see there IS a difference and I'll do more. Now, as I am using NMG, wouldnt that be the most appropriate baseline? I dont care if non-set does more or less, I only care if nirnhoned offers crafter sets a higher degree.

Edit: due to the small sample size, less than 99.95% means results could be a result of chance (ie. more than 0.05%)

NMG is not a good baseline because it is random. Sometimes the debuff is applied and you hit harder and sometimes it doesn't. The "single attack test" is only viable if you have only one variable. And NMG is a random element which affects your test. If you want to do a full build comparison it's better to do a DPS test over prolonged period of time.

How is it random? It procs on critical hits

If you only crit on the 3rd hit of Flurry you're going to get scewed results because NMG will only proc on the 3rd hit of Flurry.

Royaji · March 2017

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

So, it turns out sharpened is NOT ALWAYS better. I conducted the following test to see which DW combination performs best for overland mobs. Performed on normal mobs, and Bull Netch's outside of Mournhold.

Here are the results from best to worst:

1. Sharpened main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5231 per jab strike
2. Nirnhoned main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5100 per jab strike
3. Sharpened main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5023 per jab strike
4. Nirnhoned main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5013 per jab strike

Interesting, have you tested on a target dummy? I'm genuinely curious, I'll give it a go tonight.

Not yet. I'm also going to test it on a buddy later tomorrow and see if the results very. Let me know how your testing turns out.

Alrighty, I will use the standard DPS dummy using a single hit of rapid strikes (5 times, each measured seperately). Testing with all legendary gear, 5x VO (3x jewellery, chest and boots) 5x Night Mother's Gaze (daggers, 3x armour pieces) and one Velidreth shoulder, I dropped second piece due to RNG proc chance.:

Nirnhoned Dagger + Sharpened Dagger:
- 11063
- 11770
- 12380
- 12380
- 12380

11994 average

Sharpened and Sharpened:
- 9049
- 9756
- 12176
- 12176
- 12807

11192 average

Sharpened + Nirnhoned:
- 8541
- 9795
- 10196
- 10213
- 11434

10035 average

So there's that, my crit chance is 76% so I ran 5 tests of each combo trying to at least get an idea of what does what. I'm liking nirnhoned honestly, but 2x sharpened DID have the highest on 1of 15 tests. But Nirnhoned did actually outperform it overall.

I'd love to see if anyone else gets similar results or completely different. That was fun lol.

This test actually gave you nothing. Same as Veli, NMG has a chance to reduce resistance so it interferes with your results. You can see it from big jumps between first two and the rest of the numbers in sharp-sharp and sharp-nirn tests. I would also recommend going for at least 10-20 tests. 5 is not enough to make viable conclusions.

^ 20 tests it is! I'm aware it's not viable results as the results I posted have a difference coefficient of more than 0.05% making any results scientifically possible due to chance. But as a very broad abstract, this is how they went based on what 1 of 4 SHOULD have done.

Testing against a null hypothesis (no difference between the two) we see there IS a difference and I'll do more. Now, as I am using NMG, wouldnt that be the most appropriate baseline? I dont care if non-set does more or less, I only care if nirnhoned offers crafter sets a higher degree.

Edit: due to the small sample size, less than 99.95% means results could be a result of chance (ie. more than 0.05%)

NMG is not a good baseline because it is random. Sometimes the debuff is applied and you hit harder and sometimes it doesn't. The "single attack test" is only viable if you have only one variable. And NMG is a random element which affects your test. If you want to do a full build comparison it's better to do a DPS test over prolonged period of time.

How is it random? It procs on critical hits

As was mentioned earlier, unless you have 100% crit chance NMG is random.

Bobby_V_Rockit · March 2017

Royaji wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

So, it turns out sharpened is NOT ALWAYS better. I conducted the following test to see which DW combination performs best for overland mobs. Performed on normal mobs, and Bull Netch's outside of Mournhold.

Here are the results from best to worst:

1. Sharpened main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5231 per jab strike
2. Nirnhoned main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5100 per jab strike
3. Sharpened main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5023 per jab strike
4. Nirnhoned main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5013 per jab strike

Interesting, have you tested on a target dummy? I'm genuinely curious, I'll give it a go tonight.

Not yet. I'm also going to test it on a buddy later tomorrow and see if the results very. Let me know how your testing turns out.

Alrighty, I will use the standard DPS dummy using a single hit of rapid strikes (5 times, each measured seperately). Testing with all legendary gear, 5x VO (3x jewellery, chest and boots) 5x Night Mother's Gaze (daggers, 3x armour pieces) and one Velidreth shoulder, I dropped second piece due to RNG proc chance.:

Nirnhoned Dagger + Sharpened Dagger:
- 11063
- 11770
- 12380
- 12380
- 12380

11994 average

Sharpened and Sharpened:
- 9049
- 9756
- 12176
- 12176
- 12807

11192 average

Sharpened + Nirnhoned:
- 8541
- 9795
- 10196
- 10213
- 11434

10035 average

So there's that, my crit chance is 76% so I ran 5 tests of each combo trying to at least get an idea of what does what. I'm liking nirnhoned honestly, but 2x sharpened DID have the highest on 1of 15 tests. But Nirnhoned did actually outperform it overall.

I'd love to see if anyone else gets similar results or completely different. That was fun lol.

This test actually gave you nothing. Same as Veli, NMG has a chance to reduce resistance so it interferes with your results. You can see it from big jumps between first two and the rest of the numbers in sharp-sharp and sharp-nirn tests. I would also recommend going for at least 10-20 tests. 5 is not enough to make viable conclusions.

^ 20 tests it is! I'm aware it's not viable results as the results I posted have a difference coefficient of more than 0.05% making any results scientifically possible due to chance. But as a very broad abstract, this is how they went based on what 1 of 4 SHOULD have done.

Testing against a null hypothesis (no difference between the two) we see there IS a difference and I'll do more. Now, as I am using NMG, wouldnt that be the most appropriate baseline? I dont care if non-set does more or less, I only care if nirnhoned offers crafter sets a higher degree.

Edit: due to the small sample size, less than 99.95% means results could be a result of chance (ie. more than 0.05%)

NMG is not a good baseline because it is random. Sometimes the debuff is applied and you hit harder and sometimes it doesn't. The "single attack test" is only viable if you have only one variable. And NMG is a random element which affects your test. If you want to do a full build comparison it's better to do a DPS test over prolonged period of time.

How is it random? It procs on critical hits

As was mentioned earlier, unless you have 100% crit chance NMG is random.

I beg to differ, 75% means crit 3 out of 4 hits, out of 5 hits that means 1.25 statistically wont crit, I like those odds. Would your opinions be different had sharpened been the winner though? I bet the comments would be more like "told you so" instead of "your test was flawed"

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · March 2017

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

So, it turns out sharpened is NOT ALWAYS better. I conducted the following test to see which DW combination performs best for overland mobs. Performed on normal mobs, and Bull Netch's outside of Mournhold.

Here are the results from best to worst:

1. Sharpened main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5231 per jab strike
2. Nirnhoned main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5100 per jab strike
3. Sharpened main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5023 per jab strike
4. Nirnhoned main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5013 per jab strike

Interesting, have you tested on a target dummy? I'm genuinely curious, I'll give it a go tonight.

Not yet. I'm also going to test it on a buddy later tomorrow and see if the results very. Let me know how your testing turns out.

Alrighty, I will use the standard DPS dummy using a single hit of rapid strikes (5 times, each measured seperately). Testing with all legendary gear, 5x VO (3x jewellery, chest and boots) 5x Night Mother's Gaze (daggers, 3x armour pieces) and one Velidreth shoulder, I dropped second piece due to RNG proc chance.:

Nirnhoned Dagger + Sharpened Dagger:
- 11063
- 11770
- 12380
- 12380
- 12380

11994 average

Sharpened and Sharpened:
- 9049
- 9756
- 12176
- 12176
- 12807

11192 average

Sharpened + Nirnhoned:
- 8541
- 9795
- 10196
- 10213
- 11434

10035 average

So there's that, my crit chance is 76% so I ran 5 tests of each combo trying to at least get an idea of what does what. I'm liking nirnhoned honestly, but 2x sharpened DID have the highest on 1of 15 tests. But Nirnhoned did actually outperform it overall.

I'd love to see if anyone else gets similar results or completely different. That was fun lol.

This test actually gave you nothing. Same as Veli, NMG has a chance to reduce resistance so it interferes with your results. You can see it from big jumps between first two and the rest of the numbers in sharp-sharp and sharp-nirn tests. I would also recommend going for at least 10-20 tests. 5 is not enough to make viable conclusions.

^ 20 tests it is! I'm aware it's not viable results as the results I posted have a difference coefficient of more than 0.05% making any results scientifically possible due to chance. But as a very broad abstract, this is how they went based on what 1 of 4 SHOULD have done.

Testing against a null hypothesis (no difference between the two) we see there IS a difference and I'll do more. Now, as I am using NMG, wouldnt that be the most appropriate baseline? I dont care if non-set does more or less, I only care if nirnhoned offers crafter sets a higher degree.

Edit: due to the small sample size, less than 99.95% means results could be a result of chance (ie. more than 0.05%)

NMG is not a good baseline because it is random. Sometimes the debuff is applied and you hit harder and sometimes it doesn't. The "single attack test" is only viable if you have only one variable. And NMG is a random element which affects your test. If you want to do a full build comparison it's better to do a DPS test over prolonged period of time.

How is it random? It procs on critical hits

As was mentioned earlier, unless you have 100% crit chance NMG is random.

I beg to differ, 75% means crit 3 out of 4 hits, out of 5 hits that means 1.25 statistically wont crit, I like those odds. Would your opinions be different had sharpened been the winner though? I bet the comments would be more like "told you so" instead of "your test was flawed"

Just take of one piece of armor to make it not an issue. It is really not a big deal. When you are testing, you want to remove ALL random variables or at least all the you manage, except for the one you are trying to test. This is basic science research man.

Royaji · March 2017

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

So, it turns out sharpened is NOT ALWAYS better. I conducted the following test to see which DW combination performs best for overland mobs. Performed on normal mobs, and Bull Netch's outside of Mournhold.

Here are the results from best to worst:

1. Sharpened main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5231 per jab strike
2. Nirnhoned main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5100 per jab strike
3. Sharpened main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5023 per jab strike
4. Nirnhoned main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5013 per jab strike

Interesting, have you tested on a target dummy? I'm genuinely curious, I'll give it a go tonight.

Not yet. I'm also going to test it on a buddy later tomorrow and see if the results very. Let me know how your testing turns out.

Alrighty, I will use the standard DPS dummy using a single hit of rapid strikes (5 times, each measured seperately). Testing with all legendary gear, 5x VO (3x jewellery, chest and boots) 5x Night Mother's Gaze (daggers, 3x armour pieces) and one Velidreth shoulder, I dropped second piece due to RNG proc chance.:

Nirnhoned Dagger + Sharpened Dagger:
- 11063
- 11770
- 12380
- 12380
- 12380

11994 average

Sharpened and Sharpened:
- 9049
- 9756
- 12176
- 12176
- 12807

11192 average

Sharpened + Nirnhoned:
- 8541
- 9795
- 10196
- 10213
- 11434

10035 average

So there's that, my crit chance is 76% so I ran 5 tests of each combo trying to at least get an idea of what does what. I'm liking nirnhoned honestly, but 2x sharpened DID have the highest on 1of 15 tests. But Nirnhoned did actually outperform it overall.

I'd love to see if anyone else gets similar results or completely different. That was fun lol.

This test actually gave you nothing. Same as Veli, NMG has a chance to reduce resistance so it interferes with your results. You can see it from big jumps between first two and the rest of the numbers in sharp-sharp and sharp-nirn tests. I would also recommend going for at least 10-20 tests. 5 is not enough to make viable conclusions.

^ 20 tests it is! I'm aware it's not viable results as the results I posted have a difference coefficient of more than 0.05% making any results scientifically possible due to chance. But as a very broad abstract, this is how they went based on what 1 of 4 SHOULD have done.

Testing against a null hypothesis (no difference between the two) we see there IS a difference and I'll do more. Now, as I am using NMG, wouldnt that be the most appropriate baseline? I dont care if non-set does more or less, I only care if nirnhoned offers crafter sets a higher degree.

Edit: due to the small sample size, less than 99.95% means results could be a result of chance (ie. more than 0.05%)

NMG is not a good baseline because it is random. Sometimes the debuff is applied and you hit harder and sometimes it doesn't. The "single attack test" is only viable if you have only one variable. And NMG is a random element which affects your test. If you want to do a full build comparison it's better to do a DPS test over prolonged period of time.

How is it random? It procs on critical hits

As was mentioned earlier, unless you have 100% crit chance NMG is random.

I beg to differ, 75% means crit 3 out of 4 hits, out of 5 hits that means 1.25 statistically wont crit, I like those odds. Would your opinions be different had sharpened been the winner though? I bet the comments would be more like "told you so" instead of "your test was flawed"

If your test is flawed I will tell you that it is flawed. I don't really care about the results you get tbh. Use whatever you want to use. Unless we are in a group together I don't care. Dozens of legit tests prove that sharpened is the best trait for pretty much all situations and nirn is even worse than precise. Take a look a Asayre's math and all the other tests people have conducted. But if you want to use nirn go for it. Heck, you can even use powered. But don't come here complaining that you have been kicked from a group or can't pass a DPS check in trials.

And btw, 75% doesn't mean crit 3 of 4 times. That's not how statistics work.

Bobby_V_Rockit · March 2017

Fair enough, but actually random chance is accounted for in scientific research by keeping its likelihood equal across all samples. I think we know that naked, sharp vs. nirn, sharp is better, but I wanted to see if it stays true with the NMG bonus. I'll run more trials tomorrow, again, I'm just curious and wanted something interesting to do.

Bobby_V_Rockit · March 2017

Royaji wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

So, it turns out sharpened is NOT ALWAYS better. I conducted the following test to see which DW combination performs best for overland mobs. Performed on normal mobs, and Bull Netch's outside of Mournhold.

Here are the results from best to worst:

1. Sharpened main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5231 per jab strike
2. Nirnhoned main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5100 per jab strike
3. Sharpened main-hand, Sharpened off-hand: 5023 per jab strike
4. Nirnhoned main-hand, Nirnhoned off-hand: 5013 per jab strike

Interesting, have you tested on a target dummy? I'm genuinely curious, I'll give it a go tonight.

Not yet. I'm also going to test it on a buddy later tomorrow and see if the results very. Let me know how your testing turns out.

Alrighty, I will use the standard DPS dummy using a single hit of rapid strikes (5 times, each measured seperately). Testing with all legendary gear, 5x VO (3x jewellery, chest and boots) 5x Night Mother's Gaze (daggers, 3x armour pieces) and one Velidreth shoulder, I dropped second piece due to RNG proc chance.:

Nirnhoned Dagger + Sharpened Dagger:
- 11063
- 11770
- 12380
- 12380
- 12380

11994 average

Sharpened and Sharpened:
- 9049
- 9756
- 12176
- 12176
- 12807

11192 average

Sharpened + Nirnhoned:
- 8541
- 9795
- 10196
- 10213
- 11434

10035 average

So there's that, my crit chance is 76% so I ran 5 tests of each combo trying to at least get an idea of what does what. I'm liking nirnhoned honestly, but 2x sharpened DID have the highest on 1of 15 tests. But Nirnhoned did actually outperform it overall.

I'd love to see if anyone else gets similar results or completely different. That was fun lol.

This test actually gave you nothing. Same as Veli, NMG has a chance to reduce resistance so it interferes with your results. You can see it from big jumps between first two and the rest of the numbers in sharp-sharp and sharp-nirn tests. I would also recommend going for at least 10-20 tests. 5 is not enough to make viable conclusions.

^ 20 tests it is! I'm aware it's not viable results as the results I posted have a difference coefficient of more than 0.05% making any results scientifically possible due to chance. But as a very broad abstract, this is how they went based on what 1 of 4 SHOULD have done.

Testing against a null hypothesis (no difference between the two) we see there IS a difference and I'll do more. Now, as I am using NMG, wouldnt that be the most appropriate baseline? I dont care if non-set does more or less, I only care if nirnhoned offers crafter sets a higher degree.

Edit: due to the small sample size, less than 99.95% means results could be a result of chance (ie. more than 0.05%)

NMG is not a good baseline because it is random. Sometimes the debuff is applied and you hit harder and sometimes it doesn't. The "single attack test" is only viable if you have only one variable. And NMG is a random element which affects your test. If you want to do a full build comparison it's better to do a DPS test over prolonged period of time.

How is it random? It procs on critical hits

As was mentioned earlier, unless you have 100% crit chance NMG is random.

I beg to differ, 75% means crit 3 out of 4 hits, out of 5 hits that means 1.25 statistically wont crit, I like those odds. Would your opinions be different had sharpened been the winner though? I bet the comments would be more like "told you so" instead of "your test was flawed"

If your test is flawed I will tell you that it is flawed. I don't really care about the results you get tbh. Use whatever you want to use. Unless we are in a group together I don't care. Dozens of legit tests prove that sharpened is the best trait for pretty much all situations and nirn is even worse than precise. Take a look a Asayre's math and all the other tests people have conducted. But if you want to use nirn go for it. Heck, you can even use powered. But don't come here complaining that you have been kicked from a group or can't pass a DPS check in trials.

And btw, 75% doesn't mean crit 3 of 4 times. That's not how statistics work.

Whoa, I didnt complain I get kicked at all lol. I said earlier I run 2 sharp daggers when in groups, I only made a nirn last night because I wanted to see for myself just what the actual difference was, and yeah, it seems plausible is all I am saying.

Chill guys, I'm not going to deliberately gimp myself.