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Sharpened Vs Nirnhoned
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xblackroxe✭✭✭✭✭The_Outsider wrote: »Does resistance count towards bleeds? I know bleeds are unblockable, but not sure about resistance.
Last night in my drunken wizdom I decided to "play the way you want to play" and golded a 2H sharpened axe. The results were my Biting Jabs hitting like a wet paper bag full of baby ***, compared to my nirnhoned daggers, however if the bleeds ignore resist it may be worth it.
Bleeds are mitigated by resist.
No. Bleeds bypass any resistance.Member of HODOR
Dro-m'Athra Destroyer2 -
kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Huh. News to me. Got a source?xblackroxe wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »Does resistance count towards bleeds? I know bleeds are unblockable, but not sure about resistance.
Last night in my drunken wizdom I decided to "play the way you want to play" and golded a 2H sharpened axe. The results were my Biting Jabs hitting like a wet paper bag full of baby ***, compared to my nirnhoned daggers, however if the bleeds ignore resist it may be worth it.
Bleeds are mitigated by resist.
No. Bleeds bypass any resistance.0 -
xblackroxe✭✭✭✭✭The_Outsider wrote: »
Huh. News to me. Got a source?xblackroxe wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »Does resistance count towards bleeds? I know bleeds are unblockable, but not sure about resistance.
Last night in my drunken wizdom I decided to "play the way you want to play" and golded a 2H sharpened axe. The results were my Biting Jabs hitting like a wet paper bag full of baby ***, compared to my nirnhoned daggers, however if the bleeds ignore resist it may be worth it.
Bleeds are mitigated by resist.
No. Bleeds bypass any resistance.
No. I´ve tested it and friends too but i dont have shots anymore was some months ago.
I think it even was in the patchnotes once but cant remember whereEdited by xblackroxe on March 26, 2017 8:51PMMember of HODOR
Dro-m'Athra Destroyer0 -
kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭xblackroxe wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »
Huh. News to me. Got a source?xblackroxe wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »Does resistance count towards bleeds? I know bleeds are unblockable, but not sure about resistance.
Last night in my drunken wizdom I decided to "play the way you want to play" and golded a 2H sharpened axe. The results were my Biting Jabs hitting like a wet paper bag full of baby ***, compared to my nirnhoned daggers, however if the bleeds ignore resist it may be worth it.
Bleeds are mitigated by resist.
No. Bleeds bypass any resistance.
No. I´ve tested it and friends too but i dont have shots anymore was some months ago.
Well... I assume that because a bleed is a DoT, and DoTs are mitigated by resist, that bleeds should be mitigated by resist. If they are not, that almost seems like a bug or something.
What bleed did you test that wasn't mitigated by resist?0 -
bg22✭✭✭✭✭
✭The_Outsider wrote: »xblackroxe wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »
Huh. News to me. Got a source?xblackroxe wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »Does resistance count towards bleeds? I know bleeds are unblockable, but not sure about resistance.
Last night in my drunken wizdom I decided to "play the way you want to play" and golded a 2H sharpened axe. The results were my Biting Jabs hitting like a wet paper bag full of baby ***, compared to my nirnhoned daggers, however if the bleeds ignore resist it may be worth it.
Bleeds are mitigated by resist.
No. Bleeds bypass any resistance.
No. I´ve tested it and friends too but i dont have shots anymore was some months ago.
Well... I assume that because a bleed is a DoT, and DoTs are mitigated by resist, that bleeds should be mitigated by resist. If they are not, that almost seems like a bug or something.
What bleed did you test that wasn't mitigated by resist?
Are DoTs blockable typically? Bc I know that bleeds are not blockable...1 -
kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭The_Outsider wrote: »xblackroxe wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »
Huh. News to me. Got a source?xblackroxe wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »Does resistance count towards bleeds? I know bleeds are unblockable, but not sure about resistance.
Last night in my drunken wizdom I decided to "play the way you want to play" and golded a 2H sharpened axe. The results were my Biting Jabs hitting like a wet paper bag full of baby ***, compared to my nirnhoned daggers, however if the bleeds ignore resist it may be worth it.
Bleeds are mitigated by resist.
No. Bleeds bypass any resistance.
No. I´ve tested it and friends too but i dont have shots anymore was some months ago.
Well... I assume that because a bleed is a DoT, and DoTs are mitigated by resist, that bleeds should be mitigated by resist. If they are not, that almost seems like a bug or something.
What bleed did you test that wasn't mitigated by resist?
Are DoTs blockable typically? Bc I know that bleeds are not blockable...
Yes DoTs are blockable. There are exceptions though that deal un-blockable damage like curse. Easiest to see with skills like Rapid Strikes are Jabs (which are both considered DoTs).0 -
xblackroxe✭✭✭✭✭The_Outsider wrote: »xblackroxe wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »
Huh. News to me. Got a source?xblackroxe wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »Does resistance count towards bleeds? I know bleeds are unblockable, but not sure about resistance.
Last night in my drunken wizdom I decided to "play the way you want to play" and golded a 2H sharpened axe. The results were my Biting Jabs hitting like a wet paper bag full of baby ***, compared to my nirnhoned daggers, however if the bleeds ignore resist it may be worth it.
Bleeds are mitigated by resist.
No. Bleeds bypass any resistance.
No. I´ve tested it and friends too but i dont have shots anymore was some months ago.
Well... I assume that because a bleed is a DoT, and DoTs are mitigated by resist, that bleeds should be mitigated by resist. If they are not, that almost seems like a bug or something.
What bleed did you test that wasn't mitigated by resist?
it just has to do with the fact the are bleeds nothing else only those and unresistable damage.
I guess they just took it like in RL. Doesn´t matter what you wear if you bleed you bleed.
And its all. Axe bleed, rending slashes are the things I remember from the top of my head there are prob more though.Member of HODOR
Dro-m'Athra Destroyer0 -
SirDopey✭✭✭✭✭
✭IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »for PvP - Sharpened
for PvE - Nirnhoned
Nirnhoned is NEVER BiS for anything aside from Onslaught ganking. I don't know how you're making that claim (fix that in an edit please, so that people don't actually think that it is true and spend tons of gold mats on a nirnhoned weapon).
Like I said earlier:
Sharpened = 12% more damage done
Precise = 3.4% more damage done
Nirnhoned = 2.7% damage done
So even if full penetration is achieved in PvE (not realistic at all), Precise would still be better than Nirnhoned. In fact, When the target has 1.3k armor left Sharpened = Precise in terms of DPS. So yeah, Sharpened is best pretty much all the time.
You Sir need to calm the farm and stop being so self righteous. While you are correct that Sharpened is better most of the time it isn't better all the time. When running 12man raids with the right setups your group will be applying enough debuffs to reduce physical resistance below 18.2k, making nirnhoned weapons a better option since the warhorn nerf.
Full penetration not realistic? Again in 12 man groups total penetration/debuff possible is over 30K - don't come on here acting all high and mighty if you can't even get your own *** right.NA PC | AD
xx Doc Holliday xx0 -
MaselClass RepresentativeIn PvE you can definitely Run Charged with a Shock Glyph and the Spinner set on a Magicka Character, with a Nirnhoned Lightning Staff on the back bar on ANY class. It will net you more damage than Sharpened If you use it right. especially in 4-man content where the Minor Vulnerability uptime is not good and even more in vMA (and no, from my experience healers do NOT keep up blockade up enough to make it not worth running another DD with this over fire blockade, even in 12-man content). And before someone says that is not competitive, I think 550k+ in vMA on a Mag DK is pretty competitive.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pVl9zmvziF4 PC EU
All Trial Trifecta Titles Done!
Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA0 -
xblackroxe✭✭✭✭✭IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »for PvP - Sharpened
for PvE - Nirnhoned
Nirnhoned is NEVER BiS for anything aside from Onslaught ganking. I don't know how you're making that claim (fix that in an edit please, so that people don't actually think that it is true and spend tons of gold mats on a nirnhoned weapon).
Like I said earlier:
Sharpened = 12% more damage done
Precise = 3.4% more damage done
Nirnhoned = 2.7% damage done
So even if full penetration is achieved in PvE (not realistic at all), Precise would still be better than Nirnhoned. In fact, When the target has 1.3k armor left Sharpened = Precise in terms of DPS. So yeah, Sharpened is best pretty much all the time.
You Sir need to calm the farm and stop being so self righteous. While you are correct that Sharpened is better most of the time it isn't better all the time. When running 12man raids with the right setups your group will be applying enough debuffs to reduce physical resistance below 18.2k, making nirnhoned weapons a better option since the warhorn nerf.
Full penetration not realistic? Again in 12 man groups total penetration/debuff possible is over 30K - don't come on here acting all high and mighty if you can't even get your own *** right.
I guess you should also calm down a bit. Hes right with one thing Nirn isn't BiS. Crit is too important and too strong to make nirn viable.
So if you reach >18k without sharpened then yes precise is better.
And for mag chars this doesn't work even with 100% uptime on alkosh crusher and potl sharpend ~ precise. With anything lower than that sharpend wins and you can't have 100% uptime on all of those 80% is strong 70% is realistic.
For stam its nice though since you can split it up and run 1 sharp 1 precise but only if nmg and sunderflame are used.
Member of HODOR
Dro-m'Athra Destroyer0 -
Ahzek✭✭✭✭✭
✭@The_Outsider
Completely ignoring the debate about which trait actually is the better one for pure damage, you mentioned that you run 2 nirnhoned daggers for your PvP setup.
This is most definitely a mistake, since dual wield weapon damage is 1x main hand + 0.26 off hand weapon damage, so the nice ~100 something weapon damage increase of your offhand weapon only translates to 26% of that in actual weapon damage.
The better option would be to run your mainhand nirn and the offhand in sharpened. While sharp also gets cut in half when applied to a 1h weapon, that is still a lot more gain than nirn, which gets reduced even more.
On the topic of bleeds, they do indeed ingore armor, and have done so since the beginning. This is most likely a choice for realism, similar to the old "cant apply bleeds to shielded targets" issue, which was then changed for balance reasons (it was not a bug).
Why this is not true for poison DoTs i have no idea, but maybe that has to do with poison being considered a magic damage type before they streamlined it.
Also DoT effects are not blockable, the exceptions being channel skills.Edited by Ahzek on March 27, 2017 9:29AMJo'Khaljor1 -
Im_So_Tanked✭✭Ty for your brilliant feedback. Damage is useless in PvP. Got it. Idk what these forums would do without you. I guess a second is a long period of time now. Also good to know.
Oh, it's you. I remember you. And your sarcastic remarks to people, which are completely undeserved.
Read the post again, please.IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »Dude you talk about DPS then say you PvP... Those things don't coexist. Which is why I said that you focus too much on weapon damage and not enough on crit. DPS = damage per second, which is a number calculated over a longer period of time.
VetHM bosses fights take minutes. >2 minutes. So, actually... Yes. DPS, as a term, is irrelevant in PVP. Fights absolutely do not take that long. Burst is what PVP is about.
Read. Please.
If you do 45k DPS for 5 seconds and then 5k for 20 seconds, your actual DPS is 20k. PvE builds do 20k steadily and unchangingly every second for 50 seconds. For one minute. For 5 minutes. PvP builds make more damage, but for short period of time. PvE is about steady, constant DPS. PvP is about 45k dps for 5 seconds - burst.
Which is what @IzakiBrotherSs tried to explain to you. Got it?
Please. Start reading and stop attacking people.
EDIT. (Remark - I oversimplified, I admit. This "PvE steady DPS" is not exactly how it works. But I really want to make OP understand)
I do understand. What both of YOU fail to understand is idc ab opinions of whether knowing your DPS is relevant. All I'm saying is that with my PVP BUILD I'm pulling X DPS, and wanted to know if changing things would increase X DPS.
Reading, and reading comprehension are totally different skills.
You obviously do care if you are on the forums asking for advice. You came here and didnt get the answer you were hoping and are now throwing the toys out of your pram.0 -
SirDopey✭✭✭✭✭
✭xblackroxe wrote: »IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »for PvP - Sharpened
for PvE - Nirnhoned
Nirnhoned is NEVER BiS for anything aside from Onslaught ganking. I don't know how you're making that claim (fix that in an edit please, so that people don't actually think that it is true and spend tons of gold mats on a nirnhoned weapon).
Like I said earlier:
Sharpened = 12% more damage done
Precise = 3.4% more damage done
Nirnhoned = 2.7% damage done
So even if full penetration is achieved in PvE (not realistic at all), Precise would still be better than Nirnhoned. In fact, When the target has 1.3k armor left Sharpened = Precise in terms of DPS. So yeah, Sharpened is best pretty much all the time.
You Sir need to calm the farm and stop being so self righteous. While you are correct that Sharpened is better most of the time it isn't better all the time. When running 12man raids with the right setups your group will be applying enough debuffs to reduce physical resistance below 18.2k, making nirnhoned weapons a better option since the warhorn nerf.
Full penetration not realistic? Again in 12 man groups total penetration/debuff possible is over 30K - don't come on here acting all high and mighty if you can't even get your own *** right.
I guess you should also calm down a bit. Hes right with one thing Nirn isn't BiS. Crit is too important and too strong to make nirn viable.
So if you reach >18k without sharpened then yes precise is better.
And for mag chars this doesn't work even with 100% uptime on alkosh crusher and potl sharpend ~ precise. With anything lower than that sharpend wins and you can't have 100% uptime on all of those 80% is strong 70% is realistic.
For stam its nice though since you can split it up and run 1 sharp 1 precise but only if nmg and sunderflame are used.
Again, the above assessments are done based on people using BiS with near perfect rotations and don't take into account different setups. You can't talk in absolutes when discussing less than a 1% difference (precise vs nirn, which is what it is on a khajit stamblade at 80% crit). If we assume a Stamina character is using kragh's and VO then yeah precise is going to win, but if the guy/gal has decided to run with Vel and Viper then they're going to be better off with nirn weapons as a big chunk of their DPS will never crit.
All I'm against is people coming on here saying "you should never ever run anything else besides sharpened and any point of view otherwise is dangerous and your views don't belong here". That, I completely disagree with as there are definitely still options for people to pump out high level end game DPS without sharpened. I think @Masel92 has gone a long way the last few months in highlighting builds that show sharpened isn't the be all and end all and that yeah, if you want to give an alternative a go you can.
(ps. spinner's gets you to 18.2k with ease without sharpened on magicka, again lets stop talking in absolutes and encourage people to give alternative builds a try instead of just crushing opinions.)NA PC | AD
xx Doc Holliday xx4 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »Sharpened is a 12% increase in damage done, Nirnhoned is about 2.7% and Precise is 3.4%.
Wrong, actually: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Traits
Edit 2: off-hand weapon damage numbers were off below. Oops. Still, the edit below point stands.
Sharpened varies between 1-handed and 2-handed weapons from 2580 to 5160(going with gold cp160 number always) which is armor reduction of the target by that amount.
Considering the widely accepted value for 1% damage reduction to be 660 armor/resistance at cp160 would put that at 3.9% or 7.81%.
Nirnhoned is 11% spell/weapon damage buff, regardless of 1-handed or 2-handed so you can dual-wield both nirnhoned for probably 22%(additive in this case and worst case scenario if they apply).
I know spell/weapon damage isn't all your damage because of magicka but is is worth a lot. Every point of spell/weapon damage is comparable to 10 max magicka/stamina. So take your 1200(conservative) spell/weapon damage weapon and multiple by 1.11 or 1.22 and you get an additional 132 or 264 damage equating to 1320 or 2640 max stat.
But really, we're just going apples to apples how it affects damage to the enemy. That would mean even if spell/weapon damage is a lesser stat for you then you still have to compare how much 3.9-7.81% more damage to the enemy compares to 132-264 more base damage before any buffs. And that is if the enemy has armor enough to reduce to make a big enough dent.
Anybody know what boss level resistance caps at? is it 50% like players?
Let's assume it is. You're doing 50% damage to them and sharpened increases that to 58% at most.
Nirnhoned, in an ideal situation, would mean whatever damage you do is still only at 50% but that number should be higher. 1.22 x 50% = 61% or 1.11 x 50% = 55.5% for 2-handed.
Looks like Nirnhoned is better comparing dual wield nirnhoned to either option for sharpened, but sharpened 2-handed or dual wield beats nirnhoned 2-handed. That leaves an option for one hand nirnhoned and the other sharpened which should top sharpened for both.
Essentially, nirnhoned wins dual wield and sharpened wins 2-handed. It's not by enough for me and in certain situations nirnhoned would always be useful and applies to your own heals and defenses as well while sharpened would be less worthwhile.
This actually shows more of an issue with 2-handed vs dual-wield. The fact that there are no dual-wield magicka based weapons is a big problem if dual-wield nirnhoned exists as an option as good as above.
Edit:
In pvp, sharpened is wasted. Either your target is in light armor, in which case both nirnhoned and sharpened will be a balanced comparable value if the devs are doing their jobs, or the target could be in heavy armor buffed to over the 50% mitigation cap which would make the reduction in damage resistance come out to the same 50% which makes sharpened worthless.
Sharpened does not affect damage shields either. Nirnhoned burns them down faster.
This is also why you buff damage before any penetration with champion points.Edited by Mystrius_Archaion on March 27, 2017 11:06PM1 -
bg22✭✭✭✭✭
✭Im_So_Tanked wrote: »Ty for your brilliant feedback. Damage is useless in PvP. Got it. Idk what these forums would do without you. I guess a second is a long period of time now. Also good to know.
Oh, it's you. I remember you. And your sarcastic remarks to people, which are completely undeserved.
Read the post again, please.IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »Dude you talk about DPS then say you PvP... Those things don't coexist. Which is why I said that you focus too much on weapon damage and not enough on crit. DPS = damage per second, which is a number calculated over a longer period of time.
VetHM bosses fights take minutes. >2 minutes. So, actually... Yes. DPS, as a term, is irrelevant in PVP. Fights absolutely do not take that long. Burst is what PVP is about.
Read. Please.
If you do 45k DPS for 5 seconds and then 5k for 20 seconds, your actual DPS is 20k. PvE builds do 20k steadily and unchangingly every second for 50 seconds. For one minute. For 5 minutes. PvP builds make more damage, but for short period of time. PvE is about steady, constant DPS. PvP is about 45k dps for 5 seconds - burst.
Which is what @IzakiBrotherSs tried to explain to you. Got it?
Please. Start reading and stop attacking people.
EDIT. (Remark - I oversimplified, I admit. This "PvE steady DPS" is not exactly how it works. But I really want to make OP understand)
I do understand. What both of YOU fail to understand is idc ab opinions of whether knowing your DPS is relevant. All I'm saying is that with my PVP BUILD I'm pulling X DPS, and wanted to know if changing things would increase X DPS.
Reading, and reading comprehension are totally different skills.
You obviously do care if you are on the forums asking for advice. You came here and didnt get the answer you were hoping and are now throwing the toys out of your pram.
What are you even talking about? Idc what you THINK. I do absolutely care ab knowing what is best, and why. Your opinion affects neither of those things, or anything at all for that matter.1 -
xblackroxe✭✭✭✭✭xblackroxe wrote: »IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »for PvP - Sharpened
for PvE - Nirnhoned
Nirnhoned is NEVER BiS for anything aside from Onslaught ganking. I don't know how you're making that claim (fix that in an edit please, so that people don't actually think that it is true and spend tons of gold mats on a nirnhoned weapon).
Like I said earlier:
Sharpened = 12% more damage done
Precise = 3.4% more damage done
Nirnhoned = 2.7% damage done
So even if full penetration is achieved in PvE (not realistic at all), Precise would still be better than Nirnhoned. In fact, When the target has 1.3k armor left Sharpened = Precise in terms of DPS. So yeah, Sharpened is best pretty much all the time.
You Sir need to calm the farm and stop being so self righteous. While you are correct that Sharpened is better most of the time it isn't better all the time. When running 12man raids with the right setups your group will be applying enough debuffs to reduce physical resistance below 18.2k, making nirnhoned weapons a better option since the warhorn nerf.
Full penetration not realistic? Again in 12 man groups total penetration/debuff possible is over 30K - don't come on here acting all high and mighty if you can't even get your own *** right.
I guess you should also calm down a bit. Hes right with one thing Nirn isn't BiS. Crit is too important and too strong to make nirn viable.
So if you reach >18k without sharpened then yes precise is better.
And for mag chars this doesn't work even with 100% uptime on alkosh crusher and potl sharpend ~ precise. With anything lower than that sharpend wins and you can't have 100% uptime on all of those 80% is strong 70% is realistic.
For stam its nice though since you can split it up and run 1 sharp 1 precise but only if nmg and sunderflame are used.
Again, the above assessments are done based on people using BiS with near perfect rotations and don't take into account different setups. You can't talk in absolutes when discussing less than a 1% difference (precise vs nirn, which is what it is on a khajit stamblade at 80% crit). If we assume a Stamina character is using kragh's and VO then yeah precise is going to win, but if the guy/gal has decided to run with Vel and Viper then they're going to be better off with nirn weapons as a big chunk of their DPS will never crit.
All I'm against is people coming on here saying "you should never ever run anything else besides sharpened and any point of view otherwise is dangerous and your views don't belong here". That, I completely disagree with as there are definitely still options for people to pump out high level end game DPS without sharpened. I think @Masel92 has gone a long way the last few months in highlighting builds that show sharpened isn't the be all and end all and that yeah, if you want to give an alternative a go you can.
(ps. spinner's gets you to 18.2k with ease without sharpened on magicka, again lets stop talking in absolutes and encourage people to give alternative builds a try instead of just crushing opinions.)
Well I'm not gonna take suboptimal setups into account when you talk about endgame pve.
Ofc if you run only proc sets precise isn't as good and maybe nirn is better on that but not sure.
Well sure you could run spinner and go some other trait but who would really give up 1160 penetration and a 5 piece set just to use some other trait on the weapon.
For any endgame build sharpened > precise > nirn.
Member of HODOR
Dro-m'Athra Destroyer2 -
xblackroxe✭✭✭✭✭Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »Sharpened is a 12% increase in damage done, Nirnhoned is about 2.7% and Precise is 3.4%.
Wrong, actually: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Traits
Edit 2: off-hand weapon damage numbers were off below. Oops. Still, the edit below point stands.
Sharpened varies between 1-handed and 2-handed weapons from 2580 to 5160(going with gold cp160 number always) which is armor reduction of the target by that amount.
Considering the widely accepted value for 1% damage reduction to be 660 armor/resistance at cp160 would put that at 3.9% or 7.81%.
Nirnhoned is 11% spell/weapon damage buff, regardless of 1-handed or 2-handed so you can dual-wield both nirnhoned for probably 22%(additive in this case and worst case scenario if they apply).
I know spell/weapon damage isn't all your damage because of magicka but is is worth a lot. Every point of spell/weapon damage is comparable to 10 max magicka/stamina. So take your 1200(conservative) spell/weapon damage weapon and multiple by 1.11 or 1.22 and you get an additional 132 or 264 damage equating to 1320 or 2640 max stat.
But really, we're just going apples to apples how it affects damage to the enemy. That would mean even if spell/weapon damage is a lesser stat for you then you still have to compare how much 3.9-7.81% more damage to the enemy compares to 132-264 more base damage before any buffs. And that is if the enemy has armor enough to reduce to make a big enough dent.
Anybody know what boss level resistance caps at? is it 50% like players?
Let's assume it is. You're doing 50% damage to them and sharpened increases that to 58% at most.
Nirnhoned, in an ideal situation, would mean whatever damage you do is still only at 50% but that number should be higher. 1.22 x 50% = 61% or 1.11 x 50% = 55.5% for 2-handed.
Looks like Nirnhoned is better comparing dual wield nirnhoned to either option for sharpened, but sharpened 2-handed or dual wield beats nirnhoned 2-handed. That leaves an option for one hand nirnhoned and the other sharpened which should top sharpened for both.
Essentially, nirnhoned wins dual wield and sharpened wins 2-handed. It's not by enough for me and in certain situations nirnhoned would always be useful and applies to your own heals and defenses as well while sharpened would be less worthwhile.
This actually shows more of an issue with 2-handed vs dual-wield. The fact that there are no dual-wield magicka based weapons is a big problem if dual-wield nirnhoned exists as an option as good as above.
Edit:
In pvp, sharpened is wasted. Either your target is in light armor, in which case both nirnhoned and sharpened will be a balanced comparable value if the devs are doing their jobs, or the target could be in heavy armor buffed to over the 50% mitigation cap which would make the reduction in damage resistance come out to the same 50% which makes sharpened worthless.
Sharpened does not affect damage shields either. Nirnhoned burns them down faster.
This is also why you buff damage before any penetration with champion points.
Your argument is flawed from the beginning cause nirn is better on a 2h than on DW simply because you only get some % part from the offhand one.
Then when you do 50% and do 8% more thats actually a 16% damage increase (ofc only if sharpened is the only pen you have it gets less the more other sources you have but still will be >8%)
And your nirn assessment is way off. You dont boost your actual damage output by 22% just your spell and weapondamage (and even that % is to high)
Member of HODOR
Dro-m'Athra Destroyer1 -
SirDopey✭✭✭✭✭
✭xblackroxe wrote: »xblackroxe wrote: »IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »for PvP - Sharpened
for PvE - Nirnhoned
Nirnhoned is NEVER BiS for anything aside from Onslaught ganking. I don't know how you're making that claim (fix that in an edit please, so that people don't actually think that it is true and spend tons of gold mats on a nirnhoned weapon).
Like I said earlier:
Sharpened = 12% more damage done
Precise = 3.4% more damage done
Nirnhoned = 2.7% damage done
So even if full penetration is achieved in PvE (not realistic at all), Precise would still be better than Nirnhoned. In fact, When the target has 1.3k armor left Sharpened = Precise in terms of DPS. So yeah, Sharpened is best pretty much all the time.
You Sir need to calm the farm and stop being so self righteous. While you are correct that Sharpened is better most of the time it isn't better all the time. When running 12man raids with the right setups your group will be applying enough debuffs to reduce physical resistance below 18.2k, making nirnhoned weapons a better option since the warhorn nerf.
Full penetration not realistic? Again in 12 man groups total penetration/debuff possible is over 30K - don't come on here acting all high and mighty if you can't even get your own *** right.
I guess you should also calm down a bit. Hes right with one thing Nirn isn't BiS. Crit is too important and too strong to make nirn viable.
So if you reach >18k without sharpened then yes precise is better.
And for mag chars this doesn't work even with 100% uptime on alkosh crusher and potl sharpend ~ precise. With anything lower than that sharpend wins and you can't have 100% uptime on all of those 80% is strong 70% is realistic.
For stam its nice though since you can split it up and run 1 sharp 1 precise but only if nmg and sunderflame are used.
Again, the above assessments are done based on people using BiS with near perfect rotations and don't take into account different setups. You can't talk in absolutes when discussing less than a 1% difference (precise vs nirn, which is what it is on a khajit stamblade at 80% crit). If we assume a Stamina character is using kragh's and VO then yeah precise is going to win, but if the guy/gal has decided to run with Vel and Viper then they're going to be better off with nirn weapons as a big chunk of their DPS will never crit.
All I'm against is people coming on here saying "you should never ever run anything else besides sharpened and any point of view otherwise is dangerous and your views don't belong here". That, I completely disagree with as there are definitely still options for people to pump out high level end game DPS without sharpened. I think @Masel92 has gone a long way the last few months in highlighting builds that show sharpened isn't the be all and end all and that yeah, if you want to give an alternative a go you can.
(ps. spinner's gets you to 18.2k with ease without sharpened on magicka, again lets stop talking in absolutes and encourage people to give alternative builds a try instead of just crushing opinions.)
Well I'm not gonna take suboptimal setups into account when you talk about endgame pve.
Ofc if you run only proc sets precise isn't as good and maybe nirn is better on that but not sure, but that's beyond the point cause I'll refuse to be in the same raid as a stamina player.
Well sure you could run spinner and go some other trait but who would really give up 1160 penetration and a 5 piece set just to use some other trait on the weapon.
To be in Hodor you must run build sharpened > precise > nirn. and use only the skills we tell you to
There I fixed it for you.
To the other's reading this thread that don't yet have a flawless rotation execution and/or the prescribed gear and skills feel free to give alternative traits a go as yes you may increase your damage under some circumstances with different traits based on your gear and teammates. But, for solo play and most 4 man content you'll be better off with sharpened - unless as already stated your build is centred around ranking with the 2H ulti.....NA PC | AD
xx Doc Holliday xx0 -
xblackroxe✭✭✭✭✭xblackroxe wrote: »xblackroxe wrote: »IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »for PvP - Sharpened
for PvE - Nirnhoned
Nirnhoned is NEVER BiS for anything aside from Onslaught ganking. I don't know how you're making that claim (fix that in an edit please, so that people don't actually think that it is true and spend tons of gold mats on a nirnhoned weapon).
Like I said earlier:
Sharpened = 12% more damage done
Precise = 3.4% more damage done
Nirnhoned = 2.7% damage done
So even if full penetration is achieved in PvE (not realistic at all), Precise would still be better than Nirnhoned. In fact, When the target has 1.3k armor left Sharpened = Precise in terms of DPS. So yeah, Sharpened is best pretty much all the time.
You Sir need to calm the farm and stop being so self righteous. While you are correct that Sharpened is better most of the time it isn't better all the time. When running 12man raids with the right setups your group will be applying enough debuffs to reduce physical resistance below 18.2k, making nirnhoned weapons a better option since the warhorn nerf.
Full penetration not realistic? Again in 12 man groups total penetration/debuff possible is over 30K - don't come on here acting all high and mighty if you can't even get your own *** right.
I guess you should also calm down a bit. Hes right with one thing Nirn isn't BiS. Crit is too important and too strong to make nirn viable.
So if you reach >18k without sharpened then yes precise is better.
And for mag chars this doesn't work even with 100% uptime on alkosh crusher and potl sharpend ~ precise. With anything lower than that sharpend wins and you can't have 100% uptime on all of those 80% is strong 70% is realistic.
For stam its nice though since you can split it up and run 1 sharp 1 precise but only if nmg and sunderflame are used.
Again, the above assessments are done based on people using BiS with near perfect rotations and don't take into account different setups. You can't talk in absolutes when discussing less than a 1% difference (precise vs nirn, which is what it is on a khajit stamblade at 80% crit). If we assume a Stamina character is using kragh's and VO then yeah precise is going to win, but if the guy/gal has decided to run with Vel and Viper then they're going to be better off with nirn weapons as a big chunk of their DPS will never crit.
All I'm against is people coming on here saying "you should never ever run anything else besides sharpened and any point of view otherwise is dangerous and your views don't belong here". That, I completely disagree with as there are definitely still options for people to pump out high level end game DPS without sharpened. I think @Masel92 has gone a long way the last few months in highlighting builds that show sharpened isn't the be all and end all and that yeah, if you want to give an alternative a go you can.
(ps. spinner's gets you to 18.2k with ease without sharpened on magicka, again lets stop talking in absolutes and encourage people to give alternative builds a try instead of just crushing opinions.)
Well I'm not gonna take suboptimal setups into account when you talk about endgame pve.
Ofc if you run only proc sets precise isn't as good and maybe nirn is better on that but not sure, but that's beyond the point cause I'll refuse to be in the same raid as a stamina player.
Well sure you could run spinner and go some other trait but who would really give up 1160 penetration and a 5 piece set just to use some other trait on the weapon.
To be in Hodor you must run build sharpened > precise > nirn. and use only the skills we tell you to
There I fixed it for you.
To the other's reading this thread that don't yet have a flawless rotation execution and/or the prescribed gear and skills feel free to give alternative traits a go as yes you may increase your damage under some circumstances with different traits based on your gear and teammates. But, for solo play and most 4 man content you'll be better off with sharpened - unless as already stated your build is centred around ranking with the 2H ulti.....
Okay so you QQ that you agree with me? You just said sharpened is the best unless you don't care about anything then you can run what you want. Nice.
Member of HODOR
Dro-m'Athra Destroyer1 -
Rickter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭here is an indepth guide and reference created by a good friend and Leadership member in my guild to argue for sharpened and only sharpened.
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/rip-precise/RickterESO
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YouTube
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Guilds: PvP:Bloodletter | StamDK | Alliance Rank 46 | Former Emperor of Shor (2018) | Former Emperor of Thornblade #4terms (2015)PvE:vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMA | vDSA | vMoL | ALL Vet 4 Man Dungeons3 -
Duiwel✭✭✭✭✭
✭I get the best results with defending
@Duiwel:Join ORDER OF SITHIS We're recruiting! PC EU"Dear Brother. I do not spread rumours. I create them..."3 -
Danksta✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭IronCrystal wrote: »If this is for PvP, then does your DPS matter? PvP is all about burst damage anyways.
^^^This.BawKinTackWarDs PS4/NA0 -
I still to this day think nirn maul for PVP is Bis, Everything else use sharpened... or if you want to be MLG training is KING0
-
Izaki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭IlpsyducklI wrote: »I still to this day think nirn maul for PVP is Bis, Everything else use sharpened... or if you want to be MLG training is KING
But a Sharpened Greastword will give you more penetration and more damage done though...@ Izaki #PCEU
#FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
#MoreDPSthanYou
#Stamblade0 -
kylewwefan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I have never tried using nirnhoned on well, anything but research. im willing to give it a shot though. Should we go with Hundings or NMG?0 -
Izaki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭xblackroxe wrote: »xblackroxe wrote: »IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »for PvP - Sharpened
for PvE - Nirnhoned
Nirnhoned is NEVER BiS for anything aside from Onslaught ganking. I don't know how you're making that claim (fix that in an edit please, so that people don't actually think that it is true and spend tons of gold mats on a nirnhoned weapon).
Like I said earlier:
Sharpened = 12% more damage done
Precise = 3.4% more damage done
Nirnhoned = 2.7% damage done
So even if full penetration is achieved in PvE (not realistic at all), Precise would still be better than Nirnhoned. In fact, When the target has 1.3k armor left Sharpened = Precise in terms of DPS. So yeah, Sharpened is best pretty much all the time.
You Sir need to calm the farm and stop being so self righteous. While you are correct that Sharpened is better most of the time it isn't better all the time. When running 12man raids with the right setups your group will be applying enough debuffs to reduce physical resistance below 18.2k, making nirnhoned weapons a better option since the warhorn nerf.
Full penetration not realistic? Again in 12 man groups total penetration/debuff possible is over 30K - don't come on here acting all high and mighty if you can't even get your own *** right.
I guess you should also calm down a bit. Hes right with one thing Nirn isn't BiS. Crit is too important and too strong to make nirn viable.
So if you reach >18k without sharpened then yes precise is better.
And for mag chars this doesn't work even with 100% uptime on alkosh crusher and potl sharpend ~ precise. With anything lower than that sharpend wins and you can't have 100% uptime on all of those 80% is strong 70% is realistic.
For stam its nice though since you can split it up and run 1 sharp 1 precise but only if nmg and sunderflame are used.
Again, the above assessments are done based on people using BiS with near perfect rotations and don't take into account different setups. You can't talk in absolutes when discussing less than a 1% difference (precise vs nirn, which is what it is on a khajit stamblade at 80% crit). If we assume a Stamina character is using kragh's and VO then yeah precise is going to win, but if the guy/gal has decided to run with Vel and Viper then they're going to be better off with nirn weapons as a big chunk of their DPS will never crit.
All I'm against is people coming on here saying "you should never ever run anything else besides sharpened and any point of view otherwise is dangerous and your views don't belong here". That, I completely disagree with as there are definitely still options for people to pump out high level end game DPS without sharpened. I think @Masel92 has gone a long way the last few months in highlighting builds that show sharpened isn't the be all and end all and that yeah, if you want to give an alternative a go you can.
(ps. spinner's gets you to 18.2k with ease without sharpened on magicka, again lets stop talking in absolutes and encourage people to give alternative builds a try instead of just crushing opinions.)
Well I'm not gonna take suboptimal setups into account when you talk about endgame pve.
Ofc if you run only proc sets precise isn't as good and maybe nirn is better on that but not sure, but that's beyond the point cause I'll refuse to be in the same raid as a stamina player.
Well sure you could run spinner and go some other trait but who would really give up 1160 penetration and a 5 piece set just to use some other trait on the weapon.
To be in Hodor you must run build sharpened > precise > nirn. and use only the skills we tell you to
There I fixed it for you.
To the other's reading this thread that don't yet have a flawless rotation execution and/or the prescribed gear and skills feel free to give alternative traits a go as yes you may increase your damage under some circumstances with different traits based on your gear and teammates. But, for solo play and most 4 man content you'll be better off with sharpened - unless as already stated your build is centred around ranking with the 2H ulti.....
That is actually not true. The difference between the different traits doesn't get smaller the worse your rotation is. Its the other way round. You know how they say you get carried by gear? Well this is a perfect example. If you can't keep your rotation up, then you'll see a much larger DPS increase from Sharpened than from say Precise...
Also I'm pretty sure Hodor have a stam DK in their main team that is running a heavy attack build, so that part about Hodor refusing to have any stam in raids is kinda false.
@ Izaki #PCEU
#FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
#MoreDPSthanYou
#Stamblade0 -
xblackroxe✭✭✭✭✭IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »xblackroxe wrote: »xblackroxe wrote: »IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »for PvP - Sharpened
for PvE - Nirnhoned
Nirnhoned is NEVER BiS for anything aside from Onslaught ganking. I don't know how you're making that claim (fix that in an edit please, so that people don't actually think that it is true and spend tons of gold mats on a nirnhoned weapon).
Like I said earlier:
Sharpened = 12% more damage done
Precise = 3.4% more damage done
Nirnhoned = 2.7% damage done
So even if full penetration is achieved in PvE (not realistic at all), Precise would still be better than Nirnhoned. In fact, When the target has 1.3k armor left Sharpened = Precise in terms of DPS. So yeah, Sharpened is best pretty much all the time.
You Sir need to calm the farm and stop being so self righteous. While you are correct that Sharpened is better most of the time it isn't better all the time. When running 12man raids with the right setups your group will be applying enough debuffs to reduce physical resistance below 18.2k, making nirnhoned weapons a better option since the warhorn nerf.
Full penetration not realistic? Again in 12 man groups total penetration/debuff possible is over 30K - don't come on here acting all high and mighty if you can't even get your own *** right.
I guess you should also calm down a bit. Hes right with one thing Nirn isn't BiS. Crit is too important and too strong to make nirn viable.
So if you reach >18k without sharpened then yes precise is better.
And for mag chars this doesn't work even with 100% uptime on alkosh crusher and potl sharpend ~ precise. With anything lower than that sharpend wins and you can't have 100% uptime on all of those 80% is strong 70% is realistic.
For stam its nice though since you can split it up and run 1 sharp 1 precise but only if nmg and sunderflame are used.
Again, the above assessments are done based on people using BiS with near perfect rotations and don't take into account different setups. You can't talk in absolutes when discussing less than a 1% difference (precise vs nirn, which is what it is on a khajit stamblade at 80% crit). If we assume a Stamina character is using kragh's and VO then yeah precise is going to win, but if the guy/gal has decided to run with Vel and Viper then they're going to be better off with nirn weapons as a big chunk of their DPS will never crit.
All I'm against is people coming on here saying "you should never ever run anything else besides sharpened and any point of view otherwise is dangerous and your views don't belong here". That, I completely disagree with as there are definitely still options for people to pump out high level end game DPS without sharpened. I think @Masel92 has gone a long way the last few months in highlighting builds that show sharpened isn't the be all and end all and that yeah, if you want to give an alternative a go you can.
(ps. spinner's gets you to 18.2k with ease without sharpened on magicka, again lets stop talking in absolutes and encourage people to give alternative builds a try instead of just crushing opinions.)
Well I'm not gonna take suboptimal setups into account when you talk about endgame pve.
Ofc if you run only proc sets precise isn't as good and maybe nirn is better on that but not sure, but that's beyond the point cause I'll refuse to be in the same raid as a stamina player.
Well sure you could run spinner and go some other trait but who would really give up 1160 penetration and a 5 piece set just to use some other trait on the weapon.
To be in Hodor you must run build sharpened > precise > nirn. and use only the skills we tell you to
There I fixed it for you.
To the other's reading this thread that don't yet have a flawless rotation execution and/or the prescribed gear and skills feel free to give alternative traits a go as yes you may increase your damage under some circumstances with different traits based on your gear and teammates. But, for solo play and most 4 man content you'll be better off with sharpened - unless as already stated your build is centred around ranking with the 2H ulti.....
That is actually not true. The difference between the different traits doesn't get smaller the worse your rotation is. Its the other way round. You know how they say you get carried by gear? Well this is a perfect example. If you can't keep your rotation up, then you'll see a much larger DPS increase from Sharpened than from say Precise...
Also I'm pretty sure Hodor have a stam DK in their main team that is running a heavy attack build, so that part about Hodor refusing to have any stam in raids is kinda false.
Nah thats Dragons Crest. We really do have a full mag team besides tanks but not because ppl are forced to play magicka. Its just that everybody either always mained magicka or is familiar enough with pretty much every class to just play whats best/ needed.
And yeah your first paragraph is right. The worse you are/ your team is the better sharpened is. It was the same before they changed sharpened. Sharp was the trait to carry bad players/groups while precise was BiS for the good groups. Just with the difference that sharpened is still BiS for top goups now. Haha
Edited by xblackroxe on March 28, 2017 2:17PMMember of HODOR
Dro-m'Athra Destroyer1 -
Izaki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »for PvP - Sharpened
for PvE - Nirnhoned
Nirnhoned is NEVER BiS for anything aside from Onslaught ganking. I don't know how you're making that claim (fix that in an edit please, so that people don't actually think that it is true and spend tons of gold mats on a nirnhoned weapon).
Like I said earlier:
Sharpened = 12% more damage done
Precise = 3.4% more damage done
Nirnhoned = 2.7% damage done
So even if full penetration is achieved in PvE (not realistic at all), Precise would still be better than Nirnhoned. In fact, When the target has 1.3k armor left Sharpened = Precise in terms of DPS. So yeah, Sharpened is best pretty much all the time.
You Sir need to calm the farm and stop being so self righteous. While you are correct that Sharpened is better most of the time it isn't better all the time. When running 12man raids with the right setups your group will be applying enough debuffs to reduce physical resistance below 18.2k, making nirnhoned weapons a better option since the warhorn nerf.
Full penetration not realistic? Again in 12 man groups total penetration/debuff possible is over 30K - don't come on here acting all high and mighty if you can't even get your own *** right.
Full penetration without a Sharpened weapon on a magicka build? Go on explain to me how you're going to achieve 100% uptime on that. 100 (base), 4884 (concentration), 5280 (major breach), 1320 (minor breach), 1622 (crusher), 3010 (alkosh) and the few buffs that reduce penetration by a percentage (that no one uses). Yeah you're pretty far from 30k penetration here. So it is pretty unrealistic to have full penetration with a 100% uptime without a sharpened weapon.
Full penetration on a stamina build without sharpened? Yeah its possible. But are you really going to have 4 stamina builds in your group? I doubt that. Melee spots are precious and Magicka Templars and Magicka DKs all have more to offer to the group than a stamina build. So that leaves you maximum 2 possible stamina spots. You really going to run NMG and Sunderflame? I doubt it, considering you achieve the same result with more individual DPS with Two-Fanged Snake. Considering the current
I can get my *** right mate and I don't know how I was being self-righteous or "high and mighty" by pointing out that Nirn wasn't BiS and that people shouldn't waste gold mats on a Nirnhoned weapon instead of a Sharpened one.Edited by Izaki on March 28, 2017 2:22PM@ Izaki #PCEU
#FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
#MoreDPSthanYou
#Stamblade1
