Sharpened Vs Nirnhoned
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bg22✭✭✭✭✭
✭The_Outsider wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »At what point tho does/can Weapon damage outweigh 5k extra pen? In groups where I don't have to slot vigor, I can self buff to 6.3k. Even then, is that number not better than having say 3.5k with 5k extra pen?
This is of course a silly way to interpret things when it's really just a math thing, but one could think of it like this:
Say you've got the choice to either hit someone's armor with a real heavy Sword, or choose a slightly lighter Sword that will slide right past your target's armor. You would obviously choose to ignore the armor completely for maximum damage.
^That's a little bit like Nirn vs. Sharp.
It's similar with Weapon damage vs. Crit: You could choose to hit your target with a real heavy Sword, or you choose to hit them in a vital organ with a slightly lighter sword for x2 damage. You would obviously choose to take the crit for x2 damage.
Many of our choices in this game are personal preference, but for maximum DPS our choices are really just up to the math.
Exactly... at what point does the math favor Weapon damage?
If I had 1 Weapon damage and 100% Pen, is that better than 6,000 Weapon damage and 1% Pen?
I'm sure there is a point where the math favors weapon damage, I simply don't know where that is. If this thread was simply about traits, then we have our answer. 5k penetration in and of itself is a better DPS boost than 11% bonus to your weapon's damage (read: not Wpn Dmg). If you're really curious about more maths surrounding Sharp/Precise/Nirn, I highly recommend: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/262295/nirnhoned-precise-and-sharpened or any thread by Asayre, really.
What I do know is that we have finite amount of ways to get stats, meaning that we have to choose to stack certain stats, and abandon or gimp others. To achieve values like 6k Wpn Dmg, you have to sacrifice Max Stam, Crit, and Pen, all of which are Dmg buffs. Most people find that sacrificing a small amount of Wpn Dmg (say 1 or 2k), and trading it for a large amount of Penetration or Crit will net you far greater damage than if you just stack 1 stat.
Going off your example above, what if we traded 1k Wpn Dmg for 50% Pen? 5k Wpn Dmg and 50% Pen vs. 6k Wpn Dmg and 1% Pen. This is of course a silly example, but it illustrates the overall idea.
Nirn is gonna net you ~150 (11% of 1335) WpnDmg and Sharp nets anywhere from 20-50% Pen.
edit: @bg22
I'm not sacrificing much penetration, sitting around 7k. And at 70% crit I'm certainly not sacrificing there. Around 30k Stam, is on the slightly lower side of things tho.0 -
darthsithis✭✭✭I have heard ppl say when in a trial and debuffs are applied, that I should use the infused maelstrom dagger instead of sharpened...
None of it matter too much though, I can get great vma scores with a purple decisive lightning staff.
My real setup is sharpened front bar and maelstrom nirnhoned backbar. I mean you just lay down the dots and aoes then switch to sharpened. Sure my execute may take a hit but I can still pull ~35k on the housing dummy.
It's just not worth the grind unless you wanna pvp, in which case sharpened spinners is the way to go. Don't do maelstrom 7,000,000,000 times just for that one backbar staff, I'll be fine.
No math to back this up except that I melt stuff lolMessage me if you want to do trials/dungeons, or need a trading guild! Flawless conqueror magsorc with a bad sense of armor fashion.0 -
bg22✭✭✭✭✭
✭kylewwefan wrote: »Well, I never got around to making nirnhoned weapons and trying it out....but I was thinking about it. Many have been arguing from a math standpoint....and that's cool and logical per say; But how fast are you killing things with nirnhoned weapons?
You know what I mean. Not the DPS dummy thing, because most fights I encounter aren't that easy to have mobs and bosses just stand there and take a beating. Without a perfect rotation with weaving and Canceling and wat not, how is nirnhoned comparing to sharp. Does it feel like your doing more damage or the same or maybe less.
I want to know what it feels like to you playing the game with it. Not just the DPS dummy, but like dungeon mobs and bosses.
Oh and congrats on getting your weapon damage so high.
I hit hard. The most recent examples I can give you are from yesterday:
I did the pledges on vet. Depending on the mob, each strike from Biting Jabs hits for 4.5-6k.
I went to Cyrodiil later that night. I jumped in and 1v3'd a group right off the bat to test things out. They were from cp400-600 (I'm 305~). Each strike from Jabs hit them from between 2.5k-3k~. I killed all 3 in less than 20 seconds. As soon as I make enough gold, I'm going to gold sharpened daggers and compare damage...0 -
bg22✭✭✭✭✭
✭Valera Progib wrote: »@bg22
Don't use nirnhoned in PvP mate just go with sharpened. Nirnhoned helps with vigor due to it increasing the base value since vigor scales off of damage + stamina but it's benefits overall falls completely flat. (This is coming from someone who's a legate on 1 character and if I combine all I would be a warlord).
Your stats are incredibly fantastic for PvP especially having high recovery with over 50% crit and 4k + weapon damage that's insane. You should do fine if your rotation engagements are set (player by player based rotations is what I mean).
DPS does matter in PvP by that way to all the people fighting it. Damage per second is something you need to factor in when selecting your skills to build your rotation for player engagement. If you say DPS doesn't matter then I question your playtime in PvP.
Ok then - how much DPS do I need in PvP to be good? I would question your pvp time...
@bg22 - one of the most knowledgeable person in the forum explained to you in detail what is what, really mate, get a grip.
Burst and sustain is king in PvP. DPS, crit and weapon damage is not.
I'm aight at PvP. I'm on XB NA if you'd like to play sometime and check.0 -
kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭The_Outsider wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »At what point tho does/can Weapon damage outweigh 5k extra pen? In groups where I don't have to slot vigor, I can self buff to 6.3k. Even then, is that number not better than having say 3.5k with 5k extra pen?
This is of course a silly way to interpret things when it's really just a math thing, but one could think of it like this:
Say you've got the choice to either hit someone's armor with a real heavy Sword, or choose a slightly lighter Sword that will slide right past your target's armor. You would obviously choose to ignore the armor completely for maximum damage.
^That's a little bit like Nirn vs. Sharp.
It's similar with Weapon damage vs. Crit: You could choose to hit your target with a real heavy Sword, or you choose to hit them in a vital organ with a slightly lighter sword for x2 damage. You would obviously choose to take the crit for x2 damage.
Many of our choices in this game are personal preference, but for maximum DPS our choices are really just up to the math.
Exactly... at what point does the math favor Weapon damage?
If I had 1 Weapon damage and 100% Pen, is that better than 6,000 Weapon damage and 1% Pen?
I'm sure there is a point where the math favors weapon damage, I simply don't know where that is. If this thread was simply about traits, then we have our answer. 5k penetration in and of itself is a better DPS boost than 11% bonus to your weapon's damage (read: not Wpn Dmg). If you're really curious about more maths surrounding Sharp/Precise/Nirn, I highly recommend: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/262295/nirnhoned-precise-and-sharpened or any thread by Asayre, really.
What I do know is that we have finite amount of ways to get stats, meaning that we have to choose to stack certain stats, and abandon or gimp others. To achieve values like 6k Wpn Dmg, you have to sacrifice Max Stam, Crit, and Pen, all of which are Dmg buffs. Most people find that sacrificing a small amount of Wpn Dmg (say 1 or 2k), and trading it for a large amount of Penetration or Crit will net you far greater damage than if you just stack 1 stat.
Going off your example above, what if we traded 1k Wpn Dmg for 50% Pen? 5k Wpn Dmg and 50% Pen vs. 6k Wpn Dmg and 1% Pen. This is of course a silly example, but it illustrates the overall idea.
Nirn is gonna net you ~150 (11% of 1335) WpnDmg and Sharp nets anywhere from 20-50% Pen.
edit: @bg22
I'm not sacrificing much penetration, sitting around 7k. And at 70% crit I'm certainly not sacrificing there. Around 30k Stam, is on the slightly lower side of things tho.
Ya, I mean that's the thing-- not taking Sharpened is quite a bit. You've only got 7k, so you're almost doubling your Penetration just taking Sharp. Teh ~150 (11% of 1335) WpnDmg from Nirn is weak compared to 40% more Penetration.1 -
bg22✭✭✭✭✭
✭The_Outsider wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »At what point tho does/can Weapon damage outweigh 5k extra pen? In groups where I don't have to slot vigor, I can self buff to 6.3k. Even then, is that number not better than having say 3.5k with 5k extra pen?
This is of course a silly way to interpret things when it's really just a math thing, but one could think of it like this:
Say you've got the choice to either hit someone's armor with a real heavy Sword, or choose a slightly lighter Sword that will slide right past your target's armor. You would obviously choose to ignore the armor completely for maximum damage.
^That's a little bit like Nirn vs. Sharp.
It's similar with Weapon damage vs. Crit: You could choose to hit your target with a real heavy Sword, or you choose to hit them in a vital organ with a slightly lighter sword for x2 damage. You would obviously choose to take the crit for x2 damage.
Many of our choices in this game are personal preference, but for maximum DPS our choices are really just up to the math.
Exactly... at what point does the math favor Weapon damage?
If I had 1 Weapon damage and 100% Pen, is that better than 6,000 Weapon damage and 1% Pen?
I'm sure there is a point where the math favors weapon damage, I simply don't know where that is. If this thread was simply about traits, then we have our answer. 5k penetration in and of itself is a better DPS boost than 11% bonus to your weapon's damage (read: not Wpn Dmg). If you're really curious about more maths surrounding Sharp/Precise/Nirn, I highly recommend: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/262295/nirnhoned-precise-and-sharpened or any thread by Asayre, really.
What I do know is that we have finite amount of ways to get stats, meaning that we have to choose to stack certain stats, and abandon or gimp others. To achieve values like 6k Wpn Dmg, you have to sacrifice Max Stam, Crit, and Pen, all of which are Dmg buffs. Most people find that sacrificing a small amount of Wpn Dmg (say 1 or 2k), and trading it for a large amount of Penetration or Crit will net you far greater damage than if you just stack 1 stat.
Going off your example above, what if we traded 1k Wpn Dmg for 50% Pen? 5k Wpn Dmg and 50% Pen vs. 6k Wpn Dmg and 1% Pen. This is of course a silly example, but it illustrates the overall idea.
Nirn is gonna net you ~150 (11% of 1335) WpnDmg and Sharp nets anywhere from 20-50% Pen.
edit: @bg22
I'm not sacrificing much penetration, sitting around 7k. And at 70% crit I'm certainly not sacrificing there. Around 30k Stam, is on the slightly lower side of things tho.
Ya, I mean that's the thing-- not taking Sharpened is quite a bit. You've only got 7k, so you're almost doubling your Penetration just taking Sharp. Teh ~150 (11% of 1335) WpnDmg from Nirn is weak compared to 40% more Penetration.
Wait, is there a such thing as base penetration?0 -
Bobby_V_Rockit✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm very confused... but now I want to try 2 nirnhoned NMG daggers...Edited by Bobby_V_Rockit on March 30, 2017 4:06AM1 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭kylewwefan wrote: »Well, I never got around to making nirnhoned weapons and trying it out....but I was thinking about it. Many have been arguing from a math standpoint....and that's cool and logical per say; But how fast are you killing things with nirnhoned weapons?
You know what I mean. Not the DPS dummy thing, because most fights I encounter aren't that easy to have mobs and bosses just stand there and take a beating. Without a perfect rotation with weaving and Canceling and wat not, how is nirnhoned comparing to sharp. Does it feel like your doing more damage or the same or maybe less.
I want to know what it feels like to you playing the game with it. Not just the DPS dummy, but like dungeon mobs and bosses.
Oh and congrats on getting your weapon damage so high.
I hit hard. The most recent examples I can give you are from yesterday:
I did the pledges on vet. Depending on the mob, each strike from Biting Jabs hits for 4.5-6k.
I went to Cyrodiil later that night. I jumped in and 1v3'd a group right off the bat to test things out. They were from cp400-600 (I'm 305~). Each strike from Jabs hit them from between 2.5k-3k~. I killed all 3 in less than 20 seconds. As soon as I make enough gold, I'm going to gold sharpened daggers and compare damage...
how much CP do you have? Cause I still at 40k stam and around 4k WD buffed and hit those numbers on my stam temp, though I am at 600cp and use sharpened. With 72% crit. But the great thing about being a temp and stacking max stam is your PotL hits harder (mine hits for 26k) and your repentance (10% of your max stam, I get 4.1k stam back per body) gives you more stam back, so it pays to stack max stam on a Stam temp, not weapon damage.Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on April 10, 2017 5:45AM1 -
Bobby_V_Rockit✭✭✭✭✭
✭Alrighty, got me one nirnhoned NMG dagger and one sharpened. Let's see how this goes.
Note: this is for science, I predominantly use 2 sharpened ones and will most likely continue to do so in vet group activity. But for normal modes and overland stuff the games getting stale, so why not2 -
Im_So_Tanked✭✭Im_So_Tanked wrote: »Ty for your brilliant feedback. Damage is useless in PvP. Got it. Idk what these forums would do without you. I guess a second is a long period of time now. Also good to know.
Oh, it's you. I remember you. And your sarcastic remarks to people, which are completely undeserved.
Read the post again, please.IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »Dude you talk about DPS then say you PvP... Those things don't coexist. Which is why I said that you focus too much on weapon damage and not enough on crit. DPS = damage per second, which is a number calculated over a longer period of time.
VetHM bosses fights take minutes. >2 minutes. So, actually... Yes. DPS, as a term, is irrelevant in PVP. Fights absolutely do not take that long. Burst is what PVP is about.
Read. Please.
If you do 45k DPS for 5 seconds and then 5k for 20 seconds, your actual DPS is 20k. PvE builds do 20k steadily and unchangingly every second for 50 seconds. For one minute. For 5 minutes. PvP builds make more damage, but for short period of time. PvE is about steady, constant DPS. PvP is about 45k dps for 5 seconds - burst.
Which is what @IzakiBrotherSs tried to explain to you. Got it?
Please. Start reading and stop attacking people.
EDIT. (Remark - I oversimplified, I admit. This "PvE steady DPS" is not exactly how it works. But I really want to make OP understand)
I do understand. What both of YOU fail to understand is idc ab opinions of whether knowing your DPS is relevant. All I'm saying is that with my PVP BUILD I'm pulling X DPS, and wanted to know if changing things would increase X DPS.
Reading, and reading comprehension are totally different skills.
You obviously do care if you are on the forums asking for advice. You came here and didnt get the answer you were hoping and are now throwing the toys out of your pram.
What are you even talking about? Idc what you THINK. I do absolutely care ab knowing what is best, and why. Your opinion affects neither of those things, or anything at all for that matter.
Dont ask whats best and ignore peoples answers then you simpleton.0 -
bg22✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »kylewwefan wrote: »Well, I never got around to making nirnhoned weapons and trying it out....but I was thinking about it. Many have been arguing from a math standpoint....and that's cool and logical per say; But how fast are you killing things with nirnhoned weapons?
You know what I mean. Not the DPS dummy thing, because most fights I encounter aren't that easy to have mobs and bosses just stand there and take a beating. Without a perfect rotation with weaving and Canceling and wat not, how is nirnhoned comparing to sharp. Does it feel like your doing more damage or the same or maybe less.
I want to know what it feels like to you playing the game with it. Not just the DPS dummy, but like dungeon mobs and bosses.
Oh and congrats on getting your weapon damage so high.
I hit hard. The most recent examples I can give you are from yesterday:
I did the pledges on vet. Depending on the mob, each strike from Biting Jabs hits for 4.5-6k.
I went to Cyrodiil later that night. I jumped in and 1v3'd a group right off the bat to test things out. They were from cp400-600 (I'm 305~). Each strike from Jabs hit them from between 2.5k-3k~. I killed all 3 in less than 20 seconds. As soon as I make enough gold, I'm going to gold sharpened daggers and compare damage...
how much CP do you have? Cause I still at 40k stam and around 4k WD buffed and hit those numbers on my stam temp, though I am at 600cp and use sharpened. With 72% crit. But the great thing about being a temp and stacking max stam is your PotL hits harder (mine hits for 26k) and your repentance (10% of your max stam, I get 4.1k stam back per body) gives you more stam back, so it pays to stack max stam onba Sam temp, not weapon damage.
Just over 300cp. What does your Vigor heal for? If I remember correctly I'm around 14k (tool tip) (confirmed and edited), but I'll confirm once I get home later.
Edit: My Jabs will hit significantly harder when I have CP into Thuamaturge. My next 75 will be into that.Edited by bg22 on March 30, 2017 1:25PM0 -
bg22✭✭✭✭✭
✭Im_So_Tanked wrote: »Im_So_Tanked wrote: »Ty for your brilliant feedback. Damage is useless in PvP. Got it. Idk what these forums would do without you. I guess a second is a long period of time now. Also good to know.
Oh, it's you. I remember you. And your sarcastic remarks to people, which are completely undeserved.
Read the post again, please.IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »Dude you talk about DPS then say you PvP... Those things don't coexist. Which is why I said that you focus too much on weapon damage and not enough on crit. DPS = damage per second, which is a number calculated over a longer period of time.
VetHM bosses fights take minutes. >2 minutes. So, actually... Yes. DPS, as a term, is irrelevant in PVP. Fights absolutely do not take that long. Burst is what PVP is about.
Read. Please.
If you do 45k DPS for 5 seconds and then 5k for 20 seconds, your actual DPS is 20k. PvE builds do 20k steadily and unchangingly every second for 50 seconds. For one minute. For 5 minutes. PvP builds make more damage, but for short period of time. PvE is about steady, constant DPS. PvP is about 45k dps for 5 seconds - burst.
Which is what @IzakiBrotherSs tried to explain to you. Got it?
Please. Start reading and stop attacking people.
EDIT. (Remark - I oversimplified, I admit. This "PvE steady DPS" is not exactly how it works. But I really want to make OP understand)
I do understand. What both of YOU fail to understand is idc ab opinions of whether knowing your DPS is relevant. All I'm saying is that with my PVP BUILD I'm pulling X DPS, and wanted to know if changing things would increase X DPS.
Reading, and reading comprehension are totally different skills.
You obviously do care if you are on the forums asking for advice. You came here and didnt get the answer you were hoping and are now throwing the toys out of your pram.
What are you even talking about? Idc what you THINK. I do absolutely care ab knowing what is best, and why. Your opinion affects neither of those things, or anything at all for that matter.
Dont ask whats best and ignore peoples answers then you simpleton.
I asked no one about their opinions on what stats are worth knowing for PvP.0 -
xblackroxe✭✭✭✭✭The_Outsider wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »At what point tho does/can Weapon damage outweigh 5k extra pen? In groups where I don't have to slot vigor, I can self buff to 6.3k. Even then, is that number not better than having say 3.5k with 5k extra pen?
This is of course a silly way to interpret things when it's really just a math thing, but one could think of it like this:
Say you've got the choice to either hit someone's armor with a real heavy Sword, or choose a slightly lighter Sword that will slide right past your target's armor. You would obviously choose to ignore the armor completely for maximum damage.
^That's a little bit like Nirn vs. Sharp.
It's similar with Weapon damage vs. Crit: You could choose to hit your target with a real heavy Sword, or you choose to hit them in a vital organ with a slightly lighter sword for x2 damage. You would obviously choose to take the crit for x2 damage.
Many of our choices in this game are personal preference, but for maximum DPS our choices are really just up to the math.
Exactly... at what point does the math favor Weapon damage?
If I had 1 Weapon damage and 100% Pen, is that better than 6,000 Weapon damage and 1% Pen?
I'm sure there is a point where the math favors weapon damage, I simply don't know where that is. If this thread was simply about traits, then we have our answer. 5k penetration in and of itself is a better DPS boost than 11% bonus to your weapon's damage (read: not Wpn Dmg). If you're really curious about more maths surrounding Sharp/Precise/Nirn, I highly recommend: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/262295/nirnhoned-precise-and-sharpened or any thread by Asayre, really.
What I do know is that we have finite amount of ways to get stats, meaning that we have to choose to stack certain stats, and abandon or gimp others. To achieve values like 6k Wpn Dmg, you have to sacrifice Max Stam, Crit, and Pen, all of which are Dmg buffs. Most people find that sacrificing a small amount of Wpn Dmg (say 1 or 2k), and trading it for a large amount of Penetration or Crit will net you far greater damage than if you just stack 1 stat.
Going off your example above, what if we traded 1k Wpn Dmg for 50% Pen? 5k Wpn Dmg and 50% Pen vs. 6k Wpn Dmg and 1% Pen. This is of course a silly example, but it illustrates the overall idea.
Nirn is gonna net you ~150 (11% of 1335) WpnDmg and Sharp nets anywhere from 20-50% Pen.
edit: @bg22
I'm not sacrificing much penetration, sitting around 7k. And at 70% crit I'm certainly not sacrificing there. Around 30k Stam, is on the slightly lower side of things tho.
Ya, I mean that's the thing-- not taking Sharpened is quite a bit. You've only got 7k, so you're almost doubling your Penetration just taking Sharp. Teh ~150 (11% of 1335) WpnDmg from Nirn is weak compared to 40% more Penetration.
Wait, is there a such thing as base penetration?
Base pen is 100.
Member of HODOR
Dro-m'Athra Destroyer2 -
kylewwefan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Alrighty, got me one nirnhoned NMG dagger and one sharpened. Let's see how this goes.
Note: this is for science, I predominantly use 2 sharpened ones and will most likely continue to do so in vet group activity. But for normal modes and overland stuff the games getting stale, so why not
Can't wait to hear how it works out for ya. I got a feeling it's gonna be not that bad, maybe close to the same. Probably maybe better for the 99% of the game where mobs don't have 18k resistance to chew through.
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starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭IronCrystal wrote: »If this is for PvP, then does your DPS matter? PvP is all about burst damage anyways.
Yes it matters. You can either do enough damage or you can't. DPS is just a form of measurement...Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »70% crit is low? When did that happen?!
I was wondering the same thing. I didn't know much higher was possible... I also don't understand why I have "too much weapon damage".
70% is the soft cap. anyone trying to tell you 70+ matters is....well.
Pushing 70+ will not increase your dps, max stam and weapon damage will provided you can maintain the 70%
Just to clarify, crit generally - magicka can run with less because they can crit harder, stam need more crit because they dont crit as hard for sustained periods so they need to crit more. so long as you're at 3k+ weapon damage self buffed and then 70% crit if possible for your build then you're fine. You'll still hit like a truck, just remember that if you're going to fight annoying set ups like bol tanks or stacking sorcs you're not gonna burst them down straight away.
As I recall, the point to exceeding the crit soft caps is the same as exceeding resistance caps. You want your crit above 70 so it will blow through impen, not because you're expecting 80% of your hits to crit.
That is kinda how resistances and pen work. You stack above the hard cap to deal with pen. I can't remember if crit/impen uses the same setup, though.0 -
bg22✭✭✭✭✭
✭starkerealm wrote: »IronCrystal wrote: »If this is for PvP, then does your DPS matter? PvP is all about burst damage anyways.
Yes it matters. You can either do enough damage or you can't. DPS is just a form of measurement...Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »70% crit is low? When did that happen?!
I was wondering the same thing. I didn't know much higher was possible... I also don't understand why I have "too much weapon damage".
70% is the soft cap. anyone trying to tell you 70+ matters is....well.
Pushing 70+ will not increase your dps, max stam and weapon damage will provided you can maintain the 70%
Just to clarify, crit generally - magicka can run with less because they can crit harder, stam need more crit because they dont crit as hard for sustained periods so they need to crit more. so long as you're at 3k+ weapon damage self buffed and then 70% crit if possible for your build then you're fine. You'll still hit like a truck, just remember that if you're going to fight annoying set ups like bol tanks or stacking sorcs you're not gonna burst them down straight away.
As I recall, the point to exceeding the crit soft caps is the same as exceeding resistance caps. You want your crit above 70 so it will blow through impen, not because you're expecting 80% of your hits to crit.
That is kinda how resistances and pen work. You stack above the hard cap to deal with pen. I can't remember if crit/impen uses the same setup, though.
Crit % has nothing to do with crit modifier.1 -
dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭starkerealm wrote: »IronCrystal wrote: »If this is for PvP, then does your DPS matter? PvP is all about burst damage anyways.
Yes it matters. You can either do enough damage or you can't. DPS is just a form of measurement...Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »70% crit is low? When did that happen?!
I was wondering the same thing. I didn't know much higher was possible... I also don't understand why I have "too much weapon damage".
70% is the soft cap. anyone trying to tell you 70+ matters is....well.
Pushing 70+ will not increase your dps, max stam and weapon damage will provided you can maintain the 70%
Just to clarify, crit generally - magicka can run with less because they can crit harder, stam need more crit because they dont crit as hard for sustained periods so they need to crit more. so long as you're at 3k+ weapon damage self buffed and then 70% crit if possible for your build then you're fine. You'll still hit like a truck, just remember that if you're going to fight annoying set ups like bol tanks or stacking sorcs you're not gonna burst them down straight away.
As I recall, the point to exceeding the crit soft caps is the same as exceeding resistance caps. You want your crit above 70 so it will blow through impen, not because you're expecting 80% of your hits to crit.
That is kinda how resistances and pen work. You stack above the hard cap to deal with pen. I can't remember if crit/impen uses the same setup, though.
Crit % has nothing to do with crit modifier.
While raising Crit Hit Chance does not raise Crit Hit Damage in turn. The two values are connected, as they influence the other for the purpose of determining DPS output value. For example the more CHC is had the higher value CHD has to DPS output.
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starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »IronCrystal wrote: »If this is for PvP, then does your DPS matter? PvP is all about burst damage anyways.
Yes it matters. You can either do enough damage or you can't. DPS is just a form of measurement...Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »70% crit is low? When did that happen?!
I was wondering the same thing. I didn't know much higher was possible... I also don't understand why I have "too much weapon damage".
70% is the soft cap. anyone trying to tell you 70+ matters is....well.
Pushing 70+ will not increase your dps, max stam and weapon damage will provided you can maintain the 70%
Just to clarify, crit generally - magicka can run with less because they can crit harder, stam need more crit because they dont crit as hard for sustained periods so they need to crit more. so long as you're at 3k+ weapon damage self buffed and then 70% crit if possible for your build then you're fine. You'll still hit like a truck, just remember that if you're going to fight annoying set ups like bol tanks or stacking sorcs you're not gonna burst them down straight away.
As I recall, the point to exceeding the crit soft caps is the same as exceeding resistance caps. You want your crit above 70 so it will blow through impen, not because you're expecting 80% of your hits to crit.
That is kinda how resistances and pen work. You stack above the hard cap to deal with pen. I can't remember if crit/impen uses the same setup, though.
Crit % has nothing to do with crit modifier.
Then, yeah, there is no point to it.0 -
Bladerunner1✭✭✭✭Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Alrighty, got me one nirnhoned NMG dagger and one sharpened. Let's see how this goes.
Note: this is for science, I predominantly use 2 sharpened ones and will most likely continue to do so in vet group activity. But for normal modes and overland stuff the games getting stale, so why not
Cool, that's the way I'd do it, Nirnhorned would be wasted on the offhand dagger. At least this way you get half the benefit of sharpened and the full benefit of Nirn's 11% WD buff.
On the other hand I've tried that when tinkering with a Pelinals hybrid and it felt very mooshy. But I don't know of anyone who tried the Nirn/sharpened combo with a full stamina build, good luck.0 -
Mephisto939✭✭✭✭This debate is pointless. Everyone knows prosperous is the meta.Why did the Dunmer cross the road?
Apparently to get stuck in an eternal load screen!3 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mephisto939 wrote: »This debate is pointless. Everyone knows prosperous is the meta.
You misspelled "preposterous" up there.Edited by starkerealm on March 30, 2017 2:04PM0 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »kylewwefan wrote: »Well, I never got around to making nirnhoned weapons and trying it out....but I was thinking about it. Many have been arguing from a math standpoint....and that's cool and logical per say; But how fast are you killing things with nirnhoned weapons?
You know what I mean. Not the DPS dummy thing, because most fights I encounter aren't that easy to have mobs and bosses just stand there and take a beating. Without a perfect rotation with weaving and Canceling and wat not, how is nirnhoned comparing to sharp. Does it feel like your doing more damage or the same or maybe less.
I want to know what it feels like to you playing the game with it. Not just the DPS dummy, but like dungeon mobs and bosses.
Oh and congrats on getting your weapon damage so high.
I hit hard. The most recent examples I can give you are from yesterday:
I did the pledges on vet. Depending on the mob, each strike from Biting Jabs hits for 4.5-6k.
I went to Cyrodiil later that night. I jumped in and 1v3'd a group right off the bat to test things out. They were from cp400-600 (I'm 305~). Each strike from Jabs hit them from between 2.5k-3k~. I killed all 3 in less than 20 seconds. As soon as I make enough gold, I'm going to gold sharpened daggers and compare damage...
how much CP do you have? Cause I still at 40k stam and around 4k WD buffed and hit those numbers on my stam temp, though I am at 600cp and use sharpened. With 72% crit. But the great thing about being a temp and stacking max stam is your PotL hits harder (mine hits for 26k) and your repentance (10% of your max stam, I get 4.1k stam back per body) gives you more stam back, so it pays to stack max stam onba Sam temp, not weapon damage.
Just over 300cp. What does your Vigor heal for? If I remember correctly I'm around 14k (tool tip) (confirmed and edited), but I'll confirm once I get home later.
Edit: My Jabs will hit significantly harder when I have CP into Thuamaturge. My next 75 will be into that.
Ah, I see. CP is amazing, I don't know what my vigor hits for, haven't really used it since repentance and blood craze gets me through most things.0 -
Izaki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭starkerealm wrote: »IronCrystal wrote: »If this is for PvP, then does your DPS matter? PvP is all about burst damage anyways.
Yes it matters. You can either do enough damage or you can't. DPS is just a form of measurement...Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »70% crit is low? When did that happen?!
I was wondering the same thing. I didn't know much higher was possible... I also don't understand why I have "too much weapon damage".
70% is the soft cap. anyone trying to tell you 70+ matters is....well.
Pushing 70+ will not increase your dps, max stam and weapon damage will provided you can maintain the 70%
Just to clarify, crit generally - magicka can run with less because they can crit harder, stam need more crit because they dont crit as hard for sustained periods so they need to crit more. so long as you're at 3k+ weapon damage self buffed and then 70% crit if possible for your build then you're fine. You'll still hit like a truck, just remember that if you're going to fight annoying set ups like bol tanks or stacking sorcs you're not gonna burst them down straight away.
As I recall, the point to exceeding the crit soft caps is the same as exceeding resistance caps. You want your crit above 70 so it will blow through impen, not because you're expecting 80% of your hits to crit.
That is kinda how resistances and pen work. You stack above the hard cap to deal with pen. I can't remember if crit/impen uses the same setup, though.
Crit % has nothing to do with crit modifier.
Crit % is actually very closely related to crit modifier, in fact, its one of the 2 multipliers of the equation.
I think what you meant was critical hit damage. The other part of the crit modifier.
Crit modifier = 1 + Crit hit chance x Crit hit damage
So on my stamina nightblade I have 91% critical chance and roughly 85% critical hit damage. My critical modifier = 1 + 0.91 x 0.85 = 1.7735
This is then used to calculate the average damage of an ability = tooltip x crit modifer.Edited by Izaki on March 30, 2017 2:45PM@ Izaki #PCEU
#FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
#MoreDPSthanYou
#Stamblade1 -
darthsithis✭✭✭Do traits transfer when dot or aoe are cast? I have a maelstrom nirnhoned firestaff backbarred, and I just cast liquid and wall of elements, then switch to weave with my sharpened infal or lich. Would my woe tick harder from a sharpened staff, or does the wall of elements become 'sharpened' when I switch bars?
If that's not the case, I'll use my precise maelstrom staff instead until I get sharp. Someone told me don't use any maelstrom staff unless it's sharpened cuz random craftedsharp is better but that makes no sense to me...esp considering lightning staff sharpened ticks with extra maelstrom enchant damage per tick of the channel. Idk educate me!
Message me if you want to do trials/dungeons, or need a trading guild! Flawless conqueror magsorc with a bad sense of armor fashion.0 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭darthsithis wrote: »Do traits transfer when dot or aoe are cast? I have a maelstrom nirnhoned firestaff backbarred, and I just cast liquid and wall of elements, then switch to weave with my sharpened infal or lich. Would my woe tick harder from a sharpened staff, or does the wall of elements become 'sharpened' when I switch bars?
If that's not the case, I'll use my precise maelstrom staff instead until I get sharp. Someone told me don't use any maelstrom staff unless it's sharpened cuz random craftedsharp is better but that makes no sense to me...esp considering lightning staff sharpened ticks with extra maelstrom enchant damage per tick of the channel. Idk educate me!
Each tick is associated with current values on tick. So if on your sharpened, then you get sharpened buff not nirn.1 -
gard✭✭✭✭✭The_Outsider wrote: »At what point tho does/can Weapon damage outweigh 5k extra pen? In groups where I don't have to slot vigor, I can self buff to 6.3k. Even then, is that number not better than having say 3.5k with 5k extra pen?
This is of course a silly way to interpret things when it's really just a math thing, but one could think of it like this:
Say you've got the choice to either hit someone's armor with a real heavy Sword, or choose a slightly lighter Sword that will slide right past your target's armor. You would obviously choose to ignore the armor completely for maximum damage.
^That's a little bit like Nirn vs. Sharp.
It's similar with Weapon damage vs. Crit: You could choose to hit your target with a real heavy Sword, or you choose to hit them in a vital organ with a slightly lighter sword for x2 damage. You would obviously choose to take the crit for x2 damage.
Many of our choices in this game are personal preference, but for maximum DPS our choices are really just up to the math.
Exactly... at what point does the math favor Weapon damage?
If I had 1 Weapon damage and 100% Pen, is that better than 6,000 Weapon damage and 1% Pen?
That would depend on how much resist the target has, wouldn't it?
0 -
Izaki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The_Outsider wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »xblackroxe wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »
Huh. News to me. Got a source?xblackroxe wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »Does resistance count towards bleeds? I know bleeds are unblockable, but not sure about resistance.
Last night in my drunken wizdom I decided to "play the way you want to play" and golded a 2H sharpened axe. The results were my Biting Jabs hitting like a wet paper bag full of baby ***, compared to my nirnhoned daggers, however if the bleeds ignore resist it may be worth it.
Bleeds are mitigated by resist.
No. Bleeds bypass any resistance.
No. I´ve tested it and friends too but i dont have shots anymore was some months ago.
Well... I assume that because a bleed is a DoT, and DoTs are mitigated by resist, that bleeds should be mitigated by resist. If they are not, that almost seems like a bug or something.
What bleed did you test that wasn't mitigated by resist?
Are DoTs blockable typically? Bc I know that bleeds are not blockable...
Yes DoTs are blockable. There are exceptions though that deal un-blockable damage like curse. Easiest to see with skills like Rapid Strikes are Jabs (which are both considered DoTs).
Not exactly, those skills you mentionned are channels and all channels are blockable. However DoTs like Poison Injection and Rending Slashes, I don't think they are blockable...darthsithis wrote: »Do traits transfer when dot or aoe are cast? I have a maelstrom nirnhoned firestaff backbarred, and I just cast liquid and wall of elements, then switch to weave with my sharpened infal or lich. Would my woe tick harder from a sharpened staff, or does the wall of elements become 'sharpened' when I switch bars?
If that's not the case, I'll use my precise maelstrom staff instead until I get sharp. Someone told me don't use any maelstrom staff unless it's sharpened cuz random craftedsharp is better but that makes no sense to me...esp considering lightning staff sharpened ticks with extra maelstrom enchant damage per tick of the channel. Idk educate me!
@darthsithis
Basically, Ground Placed AoE DoTs (Liquid Lightning and Blockade) scale off the stats off your current bar. So you cast them on a bar with a powered weapon with 1800 spell damage then switch to a bar with a sharpened weapon and 3000 spell damage, the DoTs will benefit from the 3k spell damage and the penetration. Worth mentioning that Curse also works this way.
Targeted DoTs (Poison Injection, Crippling Grasp) take into account the impact bar. So if you cast Cripple on that bar with the powered weapon and Cripple hits the target while you're still on that bar, you'll only have 1.8k spell damage on Cripple. However, if you cast Cripple then bar swap and Cripple hits the target when you're already on the bar with a sharpened weapon, then Cripple will benefit from the 3K spell damage and the penetration. Basically, you have to take into account the projectile traveling time before it hits the target.
Hope this helped, it was pretty brief with a pretty crappy example but you get the idea. If you want more info, there was a thread where someone had tested most abilities in the game to see how they scale depending on your bars, try finding it
@ Izaki #PCEU
#FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
#MoreDPSthanYou
#Stamblade1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The_Outsider wrote: »At what point tho does/can Weapon damage outweigh 5k extra pen? In groups where I don't have to slot vigor, I can self buff to 6.3k. Even then, is that number not better than having say 3.5k with 5k extra pen?
This is of course a silly way to interpret things when it's really just a math thing, but one could think of it like this:
Say you've got the choice to either hit someone's armor with a real heavy Sword, or choose a slightly lighter Sword that will slide right past your target's armor. You would obviously choose to ignore the armor completely for maximum damage.
^That's a little bit like Nirn vs. Sharp.
It's similar with Weapon damage vs. Crit: You could choose to hit your target with a real heavy Sword, or you choose to hit them in a vital organ with a slightly lighter sword for x2 damage. You would obviously choose to take the crit for x2 damage.
Many of our choices in this game are personal preference, but for maximum DPS our choices are really just up to the math.
Exactly... at what point does the math favor Weapon damage?
If I had 1 Weapon damage and 100% Pen, is that better than 6,000 Weapon damage and 1% Pen?
That would depend on how much resist the target has, wouldn't it?
Yeah. Basically, you're using pen to reduce their relevant resist. You end up at a place where pen will do more damage than simply trying to power through.0 -
High_Marshal✭✭✭Anytime I see threads/posts that people agree on that "×" is always better, I know it will get adjusted.
No one thing should ever be always better than the other options. That is bad game balance.1