Dual Wield vs two-hands totally unfair?

usmcjdking · March 2017

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

If this is the case why does almost every PvP build use 2H.

Simple answer, while DW may give the possibility to run an extra 5 piece set 2H in a PVP setting is over powered a.f. And has been for a long time.

Give 2H, Bows, and staves and extra equipment slot and then nerf the skills, abilities, passives, and gear sets.

There will be so many rage posts from the corresponding nerfs it wouldn't even be funny.

Edit: Your right it's totally unfair in the favor of 2H right now.

It's a PvP vs. PvE thing. 2H is useless in PvE, while it is the meta in PvP.

Which is why I'm not encouraging it, zos nees not meddle in one of the few things in eso that are stable. Also the extea farm/upgrade matts for dw are why it deserves a 2nd set bonus. I know of a few people who paid 750k total for 2nd piece spriggana bonus, it comes as no suprise to see scrubs with their stupid wolfs jaw to demand a short cut for the same bonus.

Can't tell if sarcasm or serious. 2H is completely absent in PVE and you're calling it "stable". Are you being serious or am I missing something?

Vapirko · March 2017

TheStealthDude wrote: »

I think most of the problems for 2H come from Wrecking Blow/Dizzying Swing not being a viable spam attack. If they fix that skill or just replace it with a similar ability that is instant cast (though obviously reduced in damage, maybe increased in cost as well), then I believe 2h becomes more competitive for PvE. The rest of the skills in the tree are in the range of good to amazing.

Maybe even just add a single morph as an instant cast, with less damage. However, that would make almost the whole tree have pvp vs pve morphs, which would not be good for other reasons.

Im a stam dk so obviously Id love to see a spammable wrecking blow, but...no. It would be so ridiculously op. Wrecking blow is fine how it is. Its a very very powerful attack and should be used strategically, and with skill. I often dont even run it because its hard to use against skilled players and definitely too slow for big groups or 1vX. Its basically good for catching people off guard or wrecking noobs. You can spam it to some extent, but at your own risk of someone who knows what theyre doing just dodging it and catching you helplessly in the middle of another swing.

STEVIL · March 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

If this is the case why does almost every PvP build use 2H.

Simple answer, while DW may give the possibility to run an extra 5 piece set 2H in a PVP setting is over powered a.f. And has been for a long time.

Give 2H, Bows, and staves and extra equipment slot and then nerf the skills, abilities, passives, and gear sets.

There will be so many rage posts from the corresponding nerfs it wouldn't even be funny.

Edit: Your right it's totally unfair in the favor of 2H right now.

It's a PvP vs. PvE thing. 2H is useless in PvE, while it is the meta in PvP.

Well this is one of the things that bugs me.

2h is not useless in PVE. it is far far far far far far far far far far from useless in PVE. Even Sheogorath knows that.

it is "not the best option for sustained DPS in groups/trials with strong healer support" which is so far away from "useless in PVE" as to be on a different planet. For solling group or difficult content as stamina, rally is very helpful
In the group/trial strong healer supported kind of content, sustain DPS is the main goal for DPS and the 2H strengths in burst and its rally heal as well from rally are basically not that useful.

.

STEVIL · March 2017

usmcjdking wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

If this is the case why does almost every PvP build use 2H.

Simple answer, while DW may give the possibility to run an extra 5 piece set 2H in a PVP setting is over powered a.f. And has been for a long time.

Give 2H, Bows, and staves and extra equipment slot and then nerf the skills, abilities, passives, and gear sets.

There will be so many rage posts from the corresponding nerfs it wouldn't even be funny.

Edit: Your right it's totally unfair in the favor of 2H right now.

It's a PvP vs. PvE thing. 2H is useless in PvE, while it is the meta in PvP.

Which is why I'm not encouraging it, zos nees not meddle in one of the few things in eso that are stable. Also the extea farm/upgrade matts for dw are why it deserves a 2nd set bonus. I know of a few people who paid 750k total for 2nd piece spriggana bonus, it comes as no suprise to see scrubs with their stupid wolfs jaw to demand a short cut for the same bonus.

Can't tell if sarcasm or serious. 2H is completely absent in PVE and you're calling it "stable". Are you being serious or am I missing something?

i see 2h being used all the time in PVE.

it may be lacking in strong group/trial content end-game with good healer support for dedicated sustained DPS, but that is a far cry from "2H is completely absent in PVE".

besides, if 2h were strongly supported in that small niche of PVE and also the meta for stam in PVP, wouldn't we just be seeing all those "DW is completely absent in PVE and totally useless in PVE and also bad in PVP too" threads taking the place of this one?

Right now, it seems for 2H vs DW, neither is best everywhere and each is best somewhere" for stam builds and both are fine for like 80-90% of the content as well - so by my measure - yeah thats a good thing.

STEVIL · March 2017

it would seem to me that a huge part of the percieved problem is that the end-game group/trial content (that leaderboard stuff) is currently very very limited in its type of challenges. basically sustained DPS is the big key for that level of content and there is not enough call for burst DPS to make 2H as desirable as some might want.

if you imagine 2h as a hammer and Dw as a wrench, the end-game pve group/trial content is overloaded with bolt problems and not enough nail problems to make 2H as meaningful in that small part of the game's overall content as some would like.

So maybe instead of trying to make 2H "competitive" (read best) for all content we should try and get some more variety in that bolt-vs-nail PVE end-game group/trial content challenges.

GreenhaloX · March 2017

TheStealthDude wrote: »

I think most of the problems for 2H come from Wrecking Blow/Dizzying Swing not being a viable spam attack. If they fix that skill or just replace it with a similar ability that is instant cast (though obviously reduced in damage, maybe increased in cost as well), then I believe 2h becomes more competitive for PvE. The rest of the skills in the tree are in the range of good to amazing.

Maybe even just add a single morph as an instant cast, with less damage. However, that would make almost the whole tree have pvp vs pve morphs, which would not be good for other reasons.

Oh yeah.. getting wrecked by a DK dude whacking you with multiple consecutive Wrecking Blow or Dizzying Swing in PvP isn't considering viable spamming, then I don't know what else to say. Ha ha.

For the OP.. sure, it would be nice for a 2H to be able to slot two 5-piece and a monster set like the DW, but to me, it isn't a disadvantage. I don't see that DW is any better for PvE. I use both a 2H and a separate DW build. Depends on my mood for the time, I do switch back and forth. I do like that, with the DW, you have 12 slots where you are able to get in that monster set; which by the way, is what I believe is the factor giving a bit more dps from the DW. Without the monster proc, I can't see how much more of a dps gain you would get. If surely DW does more dps than a 2H, I don't see it is being too much more. I'm fine with my 2H having just the 2-piece sets combo, without a monster set. If a monster set with just a 5-piece and a 4-piece combo, it is a dps lost for my build. You still get that 11th slot to have whatever (one) monster piece that gives either extra damage, more stamina or majicka. In soloing, such as world bosses, dolmen or dungeon/pledges, I fair better with my 2H over the DW. My rotation is faster with the 2H, because the it takes longer for the Rapid Strikes to finish with the final strike, whereas, it is just one big whack with the Wrecking Blow. Although, you get more stamina with DW, I am able to sustain stamina a bit better with my 2H. With the DW, I seem to deplete stamina much quicker, for some reasons.

For as long as I've been playing ESO and messing around on this forum, I've since realized there are only a small percentage of folks who have actually expressed their discontent against the usage of 2H in PvE. Yet, there are numerous and countless 2H/bow toons (aside from sorc) running around everywhere in PvE land.. including myself. To me, it doesn't matter on what content of PvE, including dungeon/pledges and trials, 2H is, has been and will still be viable. It's all about the user and the skillset/rotation being utilized. A 2H toon with effective rotations, good build and sustainability is viable in any PvE contents; yes, even vets contents. I've ran all those vet dungeons and even trials with 2H and other 2H dpsers just fine. Nobody is carrying anybody. Even the duels I have observed in PvE, it seemed most of the time, it is the 2H who is coming out on top over the DW. Hard to mess with a DK that uses the Talons, then whips the hell out of the opponents repeatedly. Ha ha. Even a MagDK is brutal in PvP and dueling. However, I got it.. A lot of folks don't like stamDK because of the lack of a burst skillset, but combining other skillset, such as Endless Hail/Arrow Barrage, the Talons, Noxious Breath, seem to make up for the burst-like damages.

Rickter · March 2017

I think the OP is more concerned with not being able to retain a set bonus due to one bar being dual wield and the other bar being 2 handed.

or maybe im wrong.

in any case, I think they are trying to address this with the "Rune Weapon" in which 2h users will be able to equip a "Rune Weapon" with no visual fx but it will let 2h users the advantage of an extra set slot much like dual wielders benefit from

DurzoBlint13 · March 2017

are we really having this discussion AGAIN?
DW is for max DPS
2H is for utility
DW is focused on damage dealing, with a couple options for target based self heals
2H is all about utility- Gap Closer, Heal, Execute, CC, Empower for Stam. And Range and weaving for Magica. Using staves for magica still gives more DPS due to AC/weaving. And the long range is another advantage, especially with vMA staves.
There are trade offs and you have to choose which aspect is more important to you. If you run a Monster set and vMA weapons you would not be able to use 2 5pc sets anyway. Wanting things the way you think they should be without considering WHY things are the way they are is why we get so many of these posts over and over again.
Besides, ZOS has already said they are looking into this for Morrowind......but I doubt the changes they make (if any) will be what you are asking for

alexkdd99 · March 2017

Hurika wrote: »

8 gold alloy to gold a two hander -16 gold alloy to gold out 2 one handed. We upping gold 2h weapons to require 16 alloy?

For VMA drops and other weapon drops are we changing it so 1/2 of a two hander drops thus requiring you get 2 drops of the trait you want?

Balance is more than about "I want 5-5-2". You need to actually think of the bigger picture.... lots more than the few I just mentioned.

Ummmm I am pretty sure they changed vma drops to drop 2x 1 hand weapons when you get 1 as a drop. Not 2x 1 hand and shield, but 2x 1 hand from dual wield.

And the cost to gold the item doesn't play into the damage/ combat aspect.

You are just being petty, saying a drop would need to be 1/2 of a trait to require 2 drops of same trait? You can't be serious.

As it stands right now for stamina pve dps, it's dw and 2 hand isn't even close. So if you want to talk about the different things that play into Balance then you should realize just how much better dw is in pve.

Actually very little if any of what you posted has anything to do with combat.

STEVIL · March 2017

alexkdd99 wrote: »

Hurika wrote: »

8 gold alloy to gold a two hander -16 gold alloy to gold out 2 one handed. We upping gold 2h weapons to require 16 alloy?

For VMA drops and other weapon drops are we changing it so 1/2 of a two hander drops thus requiring you get 2 drops of the trait you want?

Balance is more than about "I want 5-5-2". You need to actually think of the bigger picture.... lots more than the few I just mentioned.

Ummmm I am pretty sure they changed vma drops to drop 2x 1 hand weapons when you get 1 as a drop. Not 2x 1 hand and shield, but 2x 1 hand from dual wield.

And the cost to gold the item doesn't play into the damage/ combat aspect.

You are just being petty, saying a drop would need to be 1/2 of a trait to require 2 drops of same trait? You can't be serious.

As it stands right now for stamina pve dps, it's dw and 2 hand isn't even close. So if you want to talk about the different things that play into Balance then you should realize just how much better dw is in pve.

Actually very little if any of what you posted has anything to do with combat.

RE the bold - Would you please list two-three end-game PVE DPS DW setups that turn in top or very close to top builds that are so very far away not even close to top-end 2H ones? no need for full specs just basic sets and pieces?

deepseamk20b14_ESO · March 2017

I see use both dual wield and 2h. I'm good to go hahaha.

SirAndy · March 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

It's a PvP vs. PvE thing. 2H is useless in PvE, while it is the meta in PvP.

2h is not useless in PVE. it is far far far far far far far far far far from useless in PVE. Even Sheogorath knows that.
it is "not the best option for sustained DPS in groups/trials with strong healer support" which is so far away from "useless in PVE" as to be on a different planet.

One of my mains is a 2H Stamplar and he can PvE just fine.

KingYogi415 · March 2017

ButcharPete · March 2017

teladoy wrote: »

Not only dual wielding rises your dps, it allows you to wear two sets of five pieces and a monster set... why two hand weapons can't count as two pieces? What are the reasons of this?

I hate to have to equip my mage with 2 swords only to can use 2 sets but don't be allowed to range attack ...

You have a gap closer, a reliable main dps that many people don't know how to use, a decent finisher which by the way actually does need a buff, and a cc. Dual wield is bad unless you're a nightblade because nightblades are the only class that can run whatever they want to run simply because they have things that other classes don't have.

Edit: I'm not sure exactly what you're asking now that I think of it.

teladoy · March 2017

ButcharPete wrote: »

teladoy wrote: »

Not only dual wielding rises your dps, it allows you to wear two sets of five pieces and a monster set... why two hand weapons can't count as two pieces? What are the reasons of this?

I hate to have to equip my mage with 2 swords only to can use 2 sets but don't be allowed to range attack ...

You have a gap closer, a reliable main dps that many people don't know how to use, a decent finisher which by the way actually does need a buff, and a cc. Dual wield is bad unless you're a nightblade because nightblades are the only class that can run whatever they want to run simply because they have things that other classes don't have.

Edit: I'm not sure exactly what you're asking now that I think of it.

Sorry but if you read my main post carefully you will see I'm talking about magicka.

I see perfectly in good conditions two-hands and dual wield in terms of stamina.

What I'm saying is that two-hands doesn't allow to wear 2 sets of 5 pieces + 2 pieces of monster set.

Magicka players have the only option to use destro staff, resto lol and dual wield to max damage. Something doesn't match.

Magicka needs some dual wield range attack weapon skill line. That or make two-hands weapons count as 2 pieces of a set.

STEVIL · March 2017

teladoy wrote: »

ButcharPete wrote: »

teladoy wrote: »

Not only dual wielding rises your dps, it allows you to wear two sets of five pieces and a monster set... why two hand weapons can't count as two pieces? What are the reasons of this?

I hate to have to equip my mage with 2 swords only to can use 2 sets but don't be allowed to range attack ...

You have a gap closer, a reliable main dps that many people don't know how to use, a decent finisher which by the way actually does need a buff, and a cc. Dual wield is bad unless you're a nightblade because nightblades are the only class that can run whatever they want to run simply because they have things that other classes don't have.

Edit: I'm not sure exactly what you're asking now that I think of it.

Sorry but if you read my main post carefully you will see I'm talking about magicka.

I see perfectly in good conditions two-hands and dual wield in terms of stamina.

What I'm saying is that two-hands doesn't allow to wear 2 sets of 5 pieces + 2 pieces of monster set.

Magicka players have the only option to use destro staff, resto lol and dual wield to max damage. Something doesn't match.

Magicka needs some dual wield range attack weapon skill line. That or make two-hands weapons count as 2 pieces of a set.

but no DW does not max damage for magica users - not in a general sense at all.

The AOE gains for lightning staff and the single target gains from flame staff at 8% do wonders in a well constructed build, plus the normal weave rotations work better with those.

As for the set bonuses thing, again, there are a variety of sets (lich, clever, warlock, lamia for instance but others can be used depending on your goals/roles/builds) where on-weapon swap yuou wind up with the "full effect" of 5-5-2 type builds because these kinds of sets have a long cooldown or build time or run time on one of the 5pc bonuses so trigger it and swap.

this 11pc set bonus issue encourages 11pc builds to look at different sets than 12pc builds and not all run the same stuff.

it helps make decisions matter and have consequences.

As for the weapon type shortage for magica users:

While i dont disagree adding a new weapon type to them would be fine, th fact is there are a lot more differences within the destro staves than the other stamina weapon lines.

Effectively you you have four weapon lines for each:

DESTRO-Ice - tanky
DESTRO-Fire - single target specialist
DESTRO-shock - AOE Specialist
RESTO - healer

vs

DW - sustain DPS melee
2H Burst DPS and utils melee
SnS - tanky melee
Bow - ranged DPS - utils mostly DoT but some burst as well.

Finally, the vast majority of the fretting over weapon sets counts vanishes when you get to mael/mast weapon sets so any talks about how you need 12 for top damage is missing the point that top damage usually means having mael.master in play at some point.

Not that there are not various builds easily within 5% of "top" and many more within 10% of top and many more that can complete any of the top content though maybe not in the top-leaderboard competitions level...

But one thing you can almost completely be certain of - if staves or 2H or bows get a second bonus set count, they will be subjected to a reduction in their current stats to offset.

magica users are well represented in the top tier end game content with staves, bows are used in both PVE and PVP top end games often paired with DW (pve) or 2H (pvp).

but if everyone could wear the same sets regardless of weapon choices that would be quite boring - imo.

Asardes · March 2017

Someone mentioned healing. 2H has rally, but 2W has blood thirst, blood craze and rend, which overall heal much more than rally. And I'm not even sure about sustain either. With 2W HA are pretty quick and you can weave them together with some of the skills without slowing down much. 2H has a lackluster AoE from skill (brawler), passive (forceful) and execute morph (reverse slice) that are nowhere near steel tornado. On the other hand weaving HA with WB is pretty slow and clunky. 2H gives you a bit of % stamina recovery after killing an enemy, but running VO for a whooping 8% cost reduction and an instant 2K stamina and gaining major expedition is so much better. And you can run VO+another 5 piece set+monster set or maelstrom weapons if you go 2W.

2H is only good if you are fighting enemies that go down fast, in a few hits, but for sustained fights, like a trial or dungeon boss, 2W is much better both in terms of sustain and DPS. The only time 2H has been used in high end PVE has been VMA, because at launch Vigor was at the bottom of the assault tree, AP gain was much slower then, and people needed a self heal. Once Vigor became accessible there was no need to run 2H for vigor. Once they added healing morphs to 2W sill line, there was basically no need to run 2H in PvE anymore. On the other hand running 2H in PvP adds another heal which is good due to the fact battle spirit halves healing. It also provides access to execute and gap closer for classes that lack that. Running 2H in PvP is basically mandatory unless you are NB and most NB run 2H anyway because they don't have access to mending like DKs and Templars and they can't gain major brutality without damaging enemies unless they use potions.

Bottom line is: 2H is for PvP, 2W for PvE