Dual Wield vs two-hands totally unfair?

teladoy

Not only dual wielding rises your dps, it allows you to wear two sets of five pieces and a monster set... why two hand weapons can't count as two pieces? What are the reasons of this?

I hate to have to equip my mage with 2 swords only to can use 2 sets but don't be allowed to range attack ...

IronCrystal

Do you need to run 2 5pc sets? Destro staff is gonna be more powerful in most cases. The only class I think can use DW over destro (even then you backbar destro) is templar.

strikeback1247

teladoy wrote: »

I hate to have to equip my mage with 2 swords only to can use 2 sets but don't be allowed to range attack ...

That's kinda the point.

idk

There are two magika classes I've seen with swords with the most common being a Templar. High classes have a staff back bar for blockade and high clssses do their best damage in melee, typically.

MagSorc rocks with a staff. Put sword in a sorc and watch dps plummet. Magblades do better with staff than swords.

Outside of the two melee classes for magika there is no reason to slot swords for PvE.

Zos rescebtky said they are looking at options for 2H weapons including the possibility of 2 set bonus on the weapons.

This probably has more to do with ice tanking since ice tanks are less advantageous with only 1-5 PC bonus. Damage formulas may be adjusted down to accomidate the extra power from being able to slot a second 5 PC set.

acw37162

If this is the case why does almost every PvP build use 2H.

Simple answer, while DW may give the possibility to run an extra 5 piece set 2H in a PVP setting is over powered a.f. And has been for a long time.

Give 2H, Bows, and staves and extra equipment slot and then nerf the skills, abilities, passives, and gear sets.

There will be so many rage posts from the corresponding nerfs it wouldn't even be funny.

Edit: Your right it's totally unfair in the favor of 2H right now.

idk

acw37162 wrote: »

If this is the case why does almost every PvP build use 2H.

Simple answer, while DW may give the possibility to run an extra 5 piece set 2H in a PVP setting is over powered a.f. And has been for a long time.

Give 2H, Bows, and staves and extra equipment slot and then nerf the skills, abilities, passives, and gear sets.

There will be so many rage posts from the corresponding nerfs it wouldn't even be funny.

Edit: Your right it's totally unfair in the favor of 2H right now.

Your post doesn't make sense also, PvP isn't the entire game. It's not even the largest part of the game by players.

Did you read the post just before yours where it is clearly stated Zos is looking into options for 2H. Recently stated by Zos. I'm not going to retype it all.

LorDrek

Why, ZOS says.

TheStealthDude

I think most of the problems for 2H come from Wrecking Blow/Dizzying Swing not being a viable spam attack. If they fix that skill or just replace it with a similar ability that is instant cast (though obviously reduced in damage, maybe increased in cost as well), then I believe 2h becomes more competitive for PvE. The rest of the skills in the tree are in the range of good to amazing.

Maybe even just add a single morph as an instant cast, with less damage. However, that would make almost the whole tree have pvp vs pve morphs, which would not be good for other reasons.

usmcjdking

2H needs a complete rework to be competitive in PVE and not be blatantly OP for PVP. The way I feel it should work, 2H should be about building momentum rather than static deeps like DW.

Battle Rush, Heavy Weapons, Follow Up and Berserker Strike are simply not influential enough in PVE to be utilized.

Heavy Weapons needs to be UNIQUE and completely different than Twin Blade and Blunt.
Battle Rush needs to have a practical PVE use in end-game content thus needs a rework.
Follow Up lacks tremendously compared to Ruffian or Slaughter.
The 2H ult is utterly pointless, useless and bad in PVE. It's weaker, more expensive than any other ult in the game, does slightly more damage than a Follow Up empowered Wrecking Blow on a fully penetrated target (and less damage than an empowered Wrecking blow) and has ultimately no purpose in PVE.

Some spitballed suggestions:
Heavy Weapons
Swords - Light and Heavy Attacks increase your critical rating by 344 and weapon damage by 3%. Lasts 3 seconds and stacks up to 5 times.
Axes - 50% chance on weapon attacks to cause bleed (reduce bleed damage by 66%). Stacks up to 3 times. At 3 stacks, causes Minor Hemmorhage increasing all physical damage on the target by 10%. (DKs have engulfing flames, so stam should have the capability to boost some of it's damage via raid modifiers outside of support sets & penetration)
Mauls - 33% chance on melee attack to ignore all enemy mitigation. Yes this means blocking targets as well as Rakkhat orb mitigation.

Follow Up
Increase damage from Light & Heavy Attacks by 10%. Fully-charged Heavy Attacks increase the damage of your next attack by 10%.

Battle Rush
Killing a target provides 30% stamina regeneration and 30 ultimate over 10 seconds.

Berserker Rage
DISCLAIMER: If ZOS is going to give 2H GWF Unstoppable from Neverwinter Online then they need to give it GWF Unstoppable, not this hamfisted nonsense.
Increase ultimate cost to 200
Remove Damage Component
Grant CC Immunity, Snare Immunity, Major Protection, Major Vitality and Major Berserk for 12 seconds.

acw37162

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

If this is the case why does almost every PvP build use 2H.

Simple answer, while DW may give the possibility to run an extra 5 piece set 2H in a PVP setting is over powered a.f. And has been for a long time.

Give 2H, Bows, and staves and extra equipment slot and then nerf the skills, abilities, passives, and gear sets.

There will be so many rage posts from the corresponding nerfs it wouldn't even be funny.

Edit: Your right it's totally unfair in the favor of 2H right now.

Your post doesn't make sense also, PvP isn't the entire game. It's not even the largest part of the game by players.

Did you read the post just before yours where it is clearly stated Zos is looking into options for 2H. Recently stated by Zos. I'm not going to retype it all.

Yes I read yours and the numerous posts before this one.

PVP may not be the biggest part of the game but it is still part of the game.

2H is OP in PVP.

Like the poster above stated 2H needs a complete re work and if you want it to count as two item pieces 2H is going to be needed into oblivion or be completely overpowered.

ZOS clearly states they look into lots of things.

I would expect something regarding gear and item for 2H, bows, and staves with Morrowind I would also expect a rebalancing of skills and passives for all those weapon lines to.

Hurika

8 gold alloy to gold a two hander -16 gold alloy to gold out 2 one handed. We upping gold 2h weapons to require 16 alloy?

For VMA drops and other weapon drops are we changing it so 1/2 of a two hander drops thus requiring you get 2 drops of the trait you want?

Balance is more than about "I want 5-5-2". You need to actually think of the bigger picture.... lots more than the few I just mentioned.

STEVIL

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

If this is the case why does almost every PvP build use 2H.

Simple answer, while DW may give the possibility to run an extra 5 piece set 2H in a PVP setting is over powered a.f. And has been for a long time.

Give 2H, Bows, and staves and extra equipment slot and then nerf the skills, abilities, passives, and gear sets.

There will be so many rage posts from the corresponding nerfs it wouldn't even be funny.

Edit: Your right it's totally unfair in the favor of 2H right now.

Your post doesn't make sense also, PvP isn't the entire game. It's not even the largest part of the game by players.

Did you read the post just before yours where it is clearly stated Zos is looking into options for 2H. Recently stated by Zos. I'm not going to retype it all.

You seem to be reading a lot into "zos is looking at..,".

I saw the statement. It was more like looking into lotsa things not a dw is too good statement.

Right now the typical top dogs for stam are
Pve bow/dw for sustain dps.
Pvp 2h/bow for burst dps plus rally.

There are multiple 11pc sets that get you the eqivalent of 5-5-2 for 2h by swapping after triggering a long run or long cool 5pc. Dragon, witchman, clever, etc all scratch the 5-5-2 itch for 11 slot builds.

Eapch has different strengths and every balance patch to date has drawn on data where these combined differences played a role.

Isolating one element out of many is not good balance analysis.

Brrrofski

Well the benefit of a staff is weaving.

Constant damage and ult gain.

On a sorc it gives you way higher chance to proc a frag.

Plus destro ult.

There's a reason every sorc uses staff in PvP and Pve. It's flat out better than slightly higher spell damage and an extra slot.

SirAndy

teladoy wrote: »

What are the reasons of this?

Because you need two hands for one two-handed weapon.
There's a reason why it is called two-handed. Two hands, one weapon.

And you get one item bonus per, wait for it, item. Not per hands. It's not a hand bonus. It's a item bonus.
For items, not hands.

One item, one bonus, regardless of how many hands you need to use it.

overclocker303b14_ESO

SirAndy wrote: »

teladoy wrote: »

What are the reasons of this?

Because you need two hands for one two-handed weapon.
There's a reason why it is called two-handed. Two hands, one weapon.

And you get one item bonus per, wait for it, item. Not per hands. It's not a hand bonus. It's a item bonus.
For items, not hands.

One item, one bonus, regardless of how many hands you need to use it.

Whoa whoa easy on the math there buddy...

Sinolai

The only problem with 2h weapons in my opinion is that ranged weapons don't have option for 1h or dual wield version, even if it was with reduced damage. But I have heard rumors that it might change in Morrowind patch.

KingYogi415

Every weapon performing the same is bland and boring.

2 hander being strong for pvp but not pve is balance.

Cheers!

usmcjdking

KingYogi415 wrote: »

Every weapon performing the same is bland and boring.

2 hander being strong for pvp but not pve is balance.

Cheers!

Does anyone actually making this argument PVP at all? Much less on a stam toon? That even uses 2h?

2H is good in PVP because of it's versatility, not because ZOMG POWERFULZ.

clocksstoppe

If you actually bothered to test (which you didn't), you would know staff is still better for mag dps.

Vizikul

teladoy wrote: »

Not only dual wielding rises your dps, it allows you to wear two sets of five pieces and a monster set... why two hand weapons can't count as two pieces? What are the reasons of this?

I hate to have to equip my mage with 2 swords only to can use 2 sets but don't be allowed to range attack ...

when staff users perfom a heavy attack they already deal constant dmg even before the heavy attack gets triggered, melee weapon users do a whole lot of nothing before they launch their heavy attack.
I would say its kind of balanced.

OOJIMMY

The extra set bonus is nice but that won't help 2h perform much better than now, except make dual wield obsolete in PvP, make dual wield 2x more expensive (Cost of tempers) and grinding than 2h.
Dual wield passives make it stronger, the dot is stronger and most important the spammable for dual wield outclasses 2h by a land side.
Flurry is fast and better weaving.
And the bread and butter for that makes dual wield so much stronger, the vma duel weapons made 2h obsolete in pve.

idk

acw37162 wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

If this is the case why does almost every PvP build use 2H.

Simple answer, while DW may give the possibility to run an extra 5 piece set 2H in a PVP setting is over powered a.f. And has been for a long time.

Give 2H, Bows, and staves and extra equipment slot and then nerf the skills, abilities, passives, and gear sets.

There will be so many rage posts from the corresponding nerfs it wouldn't even be funny.

Edit: Your right it's totally unfair in the favor of 2H right now.

Your post doesn't make sense also, PvP isn't the entire game. It's not even the largest part of the game by players.

Did you read the post just before yours where it is clearly stated Zos is looking into options for 2H. Recently stated by Zos. I'm not going to retype it all.

Yes I read yours and the numerous posts before this one.

PVP may not be the biggest part of the game but it is still part of the game.

2H is OP in PVP.

Like the poster above stated 2H needs a complete re work and if you want it to count as two item pieces 2H is going to be needed into oblivion or be completely overpowered.

ZOS clearly states they look into lots of things.

I would expect something regarding gear and item for 2H, bows, and staves with Morrowind I would also expect a rebalancing of skills and passives for all those weapon lines to.

@acw37162

Numerous posts? I made one in here before your comment that clearly related to only part of my post and that continues with your most recent reply. Especially the part where I mentioned one aspect we can expect a rebalancing though Zos has still to determine how they will proceed and obviously by past Zos comments they may do nothing.

@STEVIL I am not reading much into anything Zos said. Merely repeating it. It did not seem they were looking at the 2H stamina weapon line itself but 2H weapons in general. Of course they never did say they were making changes but merely looking into possibilities.

acw37162

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

If this is the case why does almost every PvP build use 2H.

Simple answer, while DW may give the possibility to run an extra 5 piece set 2H in a PVP setting is over powered a.f. And has been for a long time.

Give 2H, Bows, and staves and extra equipment slot and then nerf the skills, abilities, passives, and gear sets.

There will be so many rage posts from the corresponding nerfs it wouldn't even be funny.

Edit: Your right it's totally unfair in the favor of 2H right now.

Your post doesn't make sense also, PvP isn't the entire game. It's not even the largest part of the game by players.

Did you read the post just before yours where it is clearly stated Zos is looking into options for 2H. Recently stated by Zos. I'm not going to retype it all.

Yes I read yours and the numerous posts before this one.

PVP may not be the biggest part of the game but it is still part of the game.

2H is OP in PVP.

Like the poster above stated 2H needs a complete re work and if you want it to count as two item pieces 2H is going to be needed into oblivion or be completely overpowered.

ZOS clearly states they look into lots of things.

I would expect something regarding gear and item for 2H, bows, and staves with Morrowind I would also expect a rebalancing of skills and passives for all those weapon lines to.

@acw37162

Numerous posts? I made one in here before your comment that clearly related to only part of my post and that continues with your most recent reply. Especially the part where I mentioned one aspect we can expect a rebalancing though Zos has still to determine how they will proceed and obviously by past Zos comments they may do nothing.

@STEVIL I am not reading much into anything Zos said. Merely repeating it. It did not seem they were looking at the 2H stamina weapon line itself but 2H weapons in general. Of course they never did say they were making changes but merely looking into possibilities.

Not your numerous posts. There have been numerous posts regarding itemization and set bonuses. I would say over a hundred but people here are so literal someone would search and find only 80 and say seee it's not over hundred.

Needles to say this is not the first thread nor will it be the last.

Again I expect there to be huge change with morrowind regarding itemization.

Ep1kMalware

Hurika wrote: »

8 gold alloy to gold a two hander -16 gold alloy to gold out 2 one handed. We upping gold 2h weapons to require 16 alloy?

For VMA drops and other weapon drops are we changing it so 1/2 of a two hander drops thus requiring you get 2 drops of the trait you want?

Balance is more than about "I want 5-5-2". You need to actually think of the bigger picture.... lots more than the few I just mentioned.

Pretty much this. You don't know how well you got it. 2h is popular, not op. Pvper's can't seem to distinguish the difference between the two meanings unfortunately.

EmEm_Oh

I wonder if there's potential for adding more types of enchantments. Add a weight enchantment component for daggers, swords, axes. Have runes which enable your weapons to become lighter which would allow quicker swing/attack speeds, reducing stamina costs, too.

I think enchantments are a nice way to offset/allow some great builds that haven't been realized just yet. As with all enchantments, you get better opportunities for creation when you craft more via the daily writs.

Ep1kMalware

EmEm_Oh wrote: »

I wonder if there's potential for adding more types of enchantments. Add a weight enchantment component for daggers, swords, axes. Have runes which enable your weapons to become lighter which would allow quicker swing/attack speeds, reducing stamina costs, too.

I think enchantments are a nice way to offset/allow some great builds that haven't been realized just yet. As with all enchantments, you get better opportunities for creation when you craft more via the daily writs.

they h a glyoh that made tour atks faster.

Browiseth

teladoy wrote: »

I hate to have to equip my mage with 2 swords only to can use 2 sets but don't be allowed to range attack ...

alternatively

"i hate that i have to make sacrifices to get a benefit for my build, my character should be the strongest with no weaknesses"

Marktoneth3

I have been asking for this long time ago

really want 2h count as 2 set piece

MLGProPlayer

acw37162 wrote: »

If this is the case why does almost every PvP build use 2H.

Simple answer, while DW may give the possibility to run an extra 5 piece set 2H in a PVP setting is over powered a.f. And has been for a long time.

Give 2H, Bows, and staves and extra equipment slot and then nerf the skills, abilities, passives, and gear sets.

There will be so many rage posts from the corresponding nerfs it wouldn't even be funny.

Edit: Your right it's totally unfair in the favor of 2H right now.

It's a PvP vs. PvE thing. 2H is useless in PvE, while it is the meta in PvP.

Ep1kMalware

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

If this is the case why does almost every PvP build use 2H.

Simple answer, while DW may give the possibility to run an extra 5 piece set 2H in a PVP setting is over powered a.f. And has been for a long time.

Give 2H, Bows, and staves and extra equipment slot and then nerf the skills, abilities, passives, and gear sets.

There will be so many rage posts from the corresponding nerfs it wouldn't even be funny.

Edit: Your right it's totally unfair in the favor of 2H right now.

It's a PvP vs. PvE thing. 2H is useless in PvE, while it is the meta in PvP.

Which is why I'm not encouraging it, zos nees not meddle in one of the few things in eso that are stable. Also the extea farm/upgrade matts for dw are why it deserves a 2nd set bonus. I know of a few people who paid 750k total for 2nd piece spriggana bonus, it comes as no suprise to see scrubs with their stupid wolfs jaw to demand a short cut for the same bonus.

Strider_Roshin

Making the 2H count as a 2-piece won't make it OP in PvP since Maelstrom 2H + Agility provides more DPS than the majority of builds against. What it will allow is the use of VO + another DPS 5-piece along with an undaunted set; making it less of a handicap in PvE. It would also provide people more build creativity rather than the bland "pick your 5-piece, and wear your agility jewelry, and Maelstrom weapon. Which would be beneficial for those who have acquired or can't acquire a Maelstrom 2H.