Warlord and Magician CP being removed in Morrowind

theslynx · March 2017

Yikes. There's clearly a middle ground between high CP players having excessive sustain and removing it from CP entirely. I'm not sure what ZOS is thinking here. That's like burning your lawn with gasoline once a year instead of getting out the mower.

I've been playing for a few months now, and each balance patch I've seen has contained several significant nerfs altering my Templar tank or his sets, alongside a few minor buffs. If this trend continues, I guess I'll play something else.

ADarklore · March 2017

I think ZOS sees two different things occurring, first, a 16% Cost Reduction from CP isn't 'huge' but fairly significant... but if players are also throwing a glyph or two into Jewelry, that creates a massive Cost Reduction allowing players to spam forever... and perhaps they figure this may be contributing to lag and other server issues... I don't know.

However, with Cost Reduction removed from CP, this will force players who stack damage glyphs to focus more on resource management and will also force those who already run CR glyphs to be more aware of resource management. It's certainly not the 'sky is falling' like many seem to act... it means adjusting your playstyle once again. This is nothing new in MMOs, this has happened in every MMO that I have played... the constant 'balance' and 'adjustments' to abilities and resources every few months.

[Deleted User] · March 2017

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Chrlynsch · March 2017

I love how many posts this has over one change. One change that isn't official, has anyone thought maybe it just moved? Has anyone looked in the medium armor/light armor passives? You know the ones everyone had asking to buff, because heavy armor was just too good.

Should we be patient and wait for the rest of the changes to be posted to make rational judgements on gameplay changes? Or should we go back to shouting that the sky is falling and kicking ourselves in the skull with these knee-jerk reactions?

ADarklore · March 2017

Prothwata wrote: »

I love how many posts this has over one change. One change that isn't official, has anyone thought maybe it just moved? Has anyone looked in the medium armor/light armor passives? You know the ones everyone had asking to buff, because heavy armor was just too good.

Should we be patient and wait for the rest of the changes to be posted to make rational judgements on gameplay changes? Or should we go back to shouting that the sky is falling and kicking ourselves in the skull with these knee-jerk reactions?

Have you watched ESO Live from yesterday in which they discussed this? Because if you have you'd see that while they did add a disclaimer that nothing is final, they seemed pretty confident that Cost Reduction would be removed because not only is sustain too powerful right now but also that CR has no 'counter' in the CP tree. They said they want to have 'counters' to all things in the CP tree.

SnubbS · March 2017

I'm glad that I don't play solo/small scale anymore.

Birdovic · March 2017

redspecter23 wrote: »

WhiteMage wrote: »

That's good, but... combat is still better without CP.

You clearly don't play PVE at all. That would cripple players into Oblivion

Saying it again:
There was a time that we didn't have CP.
And no access to super strong sets.
And no Monster Sets.
And had lower max level(-> less Dmg)
And had Soft Caps.
And had stronger enchantments.
And had weaker traits.
And no MSA Weapons.
And overall tons of passive buffs to everything since that time.
And other stuff I forgot to mention.

And...we still managed.

Sure, PvE got adjusted, too by giving mobs and bosses more health, but besides that? Nothing. vMoL and vMSA for instance are simply adjusted to be hard compared to most other dungeons.
They (mol, msa) are hard because people are used to easy mode 4-man Dungeons. That's thanks to all from me above mentioned stuff.

IwakuraLain42 · March 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

Prothwata wrote: »

I love how many posts this has over one change. One change that isn't official, has anyone thought maybe it just moved? Has anyone looked in the medium armor/light armor passives? You know the ones everyone had asking to buff, because heavy armor was just too good.

Should we be patient and wait for the rest of the changes to be posted to make rational judgements on gameplay changes? Or should we go back to shouting that the sky is falling and kicking ourselves in the skull with these knee-jerk reactions?

Have you watched ESO Live from yesterday in which they discussed this? Because if you have you'd see that while they did add a disclaimer that nothing is final, they seemed pretty confident that Cost Reduction would be removed because not only is sustain too powerful right now but also that CR has no 'counter' in the CP tree. They said they want to have 'counters' to all things in the CP tree.

Yes I have watched it and everything they said was related to PvP. What have counters to CR in the champions tree having to do with PvE. Of course we can slap CR glyphs on our jewelry but then a lot of people will have problems with the enrages timers ZOS is so fond of building in their encounters. They said *nothing* about the PvE concerns yesterday.

ADarklore · March 2017

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Prothwata wrote: »

I love how many posts this has over one change. One change that isn't official, has anyone thought maybe it just moved? Has anyone looked in the medium armor/light armor passives? You know the ones everyone had asking to buff, because heavy armor was just too good.

Should we be patient and wait for the rest of the changes to be posted to make rational judgements on gameplay changes? Or should we go back to shouting that the sky is falling and kicking ourselves in the skull with these knee-jerk reactions?

Have you watched ESO Live from yesterday in which they discussed this? Because if you have you'd see that while they did add a disclaimer that nothing is final, they seemed pretty confident that Cost Reduction would be removed because not only is sustain too powerful right now but also that CR has no 'counter' in the CP tree. They said they want to have 'counters' to all things in the CP tree.

Yes I have watched it and everything they said was related to PvP. What have counters to CR in the champions tree having to do with PvE. Of course we can slap CR glyphs on our jewelry but then a lot of people will have problems with the enrages timers ZOS is so fond of building in their encounters. They said *nothing* about the PvE concerns yesterday.

Because in THEIR minds, PvE/PvP are interconnected and 'always will be'. They have said before they will not separate the two, and thus, CP has to work for both PvP and PvE. Besides, they weren't solely talking about PvP, it just so happens that the conversation occurred after Battleground demo but the discussion in regards to CP tree was for both.

Kendaric · March 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

Because in THEIR minds, PvE/PvP are interconnected and 'always will be'. They have said before they will not separate the two, and thus, CP has to work for both PvP and PvE. Besides, they weren't solely talking about PvP, it just so happens that the conversation occurred after Battleground demo but the discussion in regards to CP tree was for both.

Then why did they create the "Siphoner" CP node, which has no use in PvE since NPCs don't have resource pools? If CP's are supposed to work for both PvE & PvP, it seems strange they'd replace something that applied to both with something that is only useful in PvP.

mr_wazzabi · March 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

I think ZOS sees two different things occurring, first, a 16% Cost Reduction from CP isn't 'huge' but fairly significant... but if players are also throwing a glyph or two into Jewelry, that creates a massive Cost Reduction allowing players to spam forever... and perhaps they figure this may be contributing to lag and other server issues... I don't know.

However, with Cost Reduction removed from CP, this will force players who stack damage glyphs to focus more on resource management and will also force those who already run CR glyphs to be more aware of resource management. It's certainly not the 'sky is falling' like many seem to act... it means adjusting your playstyle once again. This is nothing new in MMOs, this has happened in every MMO that I have played... the constant 'balance' and 'adjustments' to abilities and resources every few months.

How will we survive enrage mechanics if we have to watch resources?

Blackbird_V · March 2017

If this happens Molag Kena 2 piece will definitely become the worst monster helm set in the entirety of the game.

Not only this, magicka users cannot afford to use 5/1/1 undaunted

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Nice to see that there is still no zos reply....

Don't worry. I got this...
@ZOS
@ZOS_AnaP @ZOS_Abdu @ZOS_AidanF @ZOS_AJ @ZOS_AjanJ @ZOS_BPerry @ZOS_BasileA @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_BillMueller @ZOS_BobE @ZOS_BoydBeasley @ZOS_ChesterN @ZOS_CaitlinR @ZOS_CatK @ZOS_CédricL @ZOS_CharlieH @ZOS_Dan @ZOS_DanDunham @ZOS_DavidGee @ZOS_DavidH @ZOS_DavidP @ZOS_EdLynch @ZOS_EmilyM @ZOS_Emma @ZOS_EugeneB @ZOS_EveP @ZOS_FelixP @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_GabrielleA @ZOS_GaryA @ZOS_Gideon @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Heather @ZOS_HeatherB @ZOS_HugoP @ZOS_JoanaL @ZOS_JamesLowe @ZOS_JaneS @ZOS_JanS @ZOS_JaredR @ZOS_KaeylaW @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_KaleyR @ZOS_Karli @ZOS_Katarina @ZOS_LenaicR @ZOS_LeroyW @ZOS_LodieA @ZOS_LonnyL @ZOS_LucasA @ZOS_MaxG @ZOS_MaggieS @ZOS_Margaret @ZOS_MariaAliprando @ZOS_MarissaM @ZOS_NathanM @ZOS_Nilanth @ZOS_NinaM @ZOS_NorbertS @ZOS_Olivier @ZOS_PaulineLC @ZOS_PaulSage @ZOS_PierreL @ZOS_Robert @ZOS_Racheal @ZOS_RandolfS @ZOS_RebeccaE @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_ShannonM @ZOS_Samantha_Weeks @ZOS_SamuelB @ZOS_SandraF @ZOS_SandraS @ZOS_Tarina @ZOS_Teri @ZOS_ThaliaH @ZOS_ThomasK @ZOS_TiborD @ZOS_UlyssesW @ZOS_VaughanP @ZOS_QuinnC @ZOS_Wolfram @Wrobel @ZOS_YigaelK @ZOS_ZebCook

You took the time to do that, and they can't take the time to reply lol.

Doctordarkspawn · March 2017

Birdovic wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

WhiteMage wrote: »

That's good, but... combat is still better without CP.

You clearly don't play PVE at all. That would cripple players into Oblivion

Saying it again:
There was a time that we didn't have CP.
And no access to super strong sets.
And no Monster Sets.
And had lower max level(-> less Dmg)
And had Soft Caps.
And had stronger enchantments.
And had weaker traits.
And no MSA Weapons.
And overall tons of passive buffs to everything since that time.
And other stuff I forgot to mention.

And...we still managed.

Sure, PvE got adjusted, too by giving mobs and bosses more health, but besides that? Nothing. vMoL and vMSA for instance are simply adjusted to be hard compared to most other dungeons.
They (mol, msa) are hard because people are used to easy mode 4-man Dungeons. That's thanks to all from me above mentioned stuff.

@Birdovic

We managed with radically different balance, costs, scaling, and everything else. Comparing one to the other is comparing apples to oranges.

Dont speak on the issue if you dont know what your talking about. I'm old enough to -remember- said soft cap era, and I prefer it. But comparing that landscape to this one is apples to oranges.

Baconlad · March 2017

If everyone spams the @zos mentions well get areplynafter 100 of us do it XD. I will not be i dont have patience or care, and i accept that changes happen. Im not worried about the changes. I have recently taken all CPs out of sustain. Threw on a resto staff and i am doing ok in my same heavy templar build. Now i cant really solo 1vX...but im still able to rek dudes who stray from their zerg. Im still having fun. As for pve, figure with light armor and my destro staff offbar, ill just drop some heavies once in awhile and manage fine.

Nifty2g · March 2017

"infinite sustain"
If you are not in a coordinated PvE group with buffs and your healers dedicated to your resources, your "infinite sustain" will be gone without 30 seconds in a best in slot set up. I still don't see the issue here with changing it.
And to redo this in PvE it's going to possibly kill it unless you get buffed elsewhere. No one wants to struggle in best in slot set ups and resort to running regen set ups to get the end result anyway.

darkstar2084 · March 2017

ZOS should just turn off champ points in PVP it's not difficult to work out. That would level the playing field and newer players would be on the same level for pvp after 160. Then stuff for PVE could be left alone, instead of getting nerfed all the time for pvp balance

Kay1 · March 2017

SnubbS wrote: »

I'm someone who hates no-cp pvp(unless it's in battlegrounds) and I honestly would prefer that to this change after thinking it over. The damage is going to be so unbelievably low after this—and everyone is still going to have near infinite sustain after adjusting their builds. It's such an awful change for solo/duo open-world pvp.

Your 9k leap just turned into a 6-7k leap, your surprise attack lost 1-2k of damage—but springs didn't lose anything, Blessed didn't lose anything. Pump 100 into that, throw on your alternation mastery & seducer w/ something like pirate skeleton/bloodspawn or troll king—you're fine—you're still throwing the 12k breaths, and you can sustain that indefinitely—and you're probably tankier than you are right now on live with reactive.

Zenimax already stated few times that solo players and small scale players are ruining others people fun and that they need adjustment because we are OP, some of our accounts are also going to get stealth nerf for June because going 300 kills 5 deaths is not balanced this game is intended to follow a group of 50 players and spam one skill but we don't, we use 10 out of 10 skills and Zenimax doesn't want that because that's going to create more threads about nerfing skills.

I received a message to pre-order Morrowind and at the end of the message they told me "We received a lot of complaints about people getting 1v8 by you so the dev team decided to *** you in the **** very hard so you won't forget it"

Can't wait to create a new cancer build but this time cancerous as ever, I've never gone full cancer but this time I will just because of these changes I'll maybe even run Malubeth, Stam NB will be back and all of you little zergers happy about this will feel my pain.

Solo 4 life, we never surrender, we adapt, because killing zergs is a routine.

Doctordarkspawn · March 2017

Nifty2g wrote: »

"infinite sustain"
If you are not in a coordinated PvE group with buffs and your healers dedicated to your resources, your "infinite sustain" will be gone without 30 seconds in a best in slot set up. I still don't see the issue here with changing it.
And to redo this in PvE it's going to possibly kill it unless you get buffed elsewhere. No one wants to struggle in best in slot set ups and resort to running regen set ups to get the end result anyway.

Welcome to the new world order. We must be nerfed because....raisens.

Doctordarkspawn · March 2017

Baconlad wrote: »

If everyone spams the @zos mentions well get areplynafter 100 of us do it XD. I will not be i dont have patience or care, and i accept that changes happen. Im not worried about the changes. I have recently taken all CPs out of sustain. Threw on a resto staff and i am doing ok in my same heavy templar build. Now i cant really solo 1vX...but im still able to rek dudes who stray from their zerg. Im still having fun. As for pve, figure with light armor and my destro staff offbar, ill just drop some heavies once in awhile and manage fine.

Try a PVE dungeon run. See how you fair.

Or better yet, VMA, or Vmol.

Nelson_Rebel · March 2017

Birdovic wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

WhiteMage wrote: »

That's good, but... combat is still better without CP.

You clearly don't play PVE at all. That would cripple players into Oblivion

Saying it again:
There was a time that we didn't have CP.
And no access to super strong sets.
And no Monster Sets.
And had lower max level(-> less Dmg)
And had Soft Caps.
And had stronger enchantments.
And had weaker traits.
And no MSA Weapons.
And overall tons of passive buffs to everything since that time.
And other stuff I forgot to mention.

And...we still managed.

Sure, PvE got adjusted, too by giving mobs and bosses more health, but besides that? Nothing. vMoL and vMSA for instance are simply adjusted to be hard compared to most other dungeons.
They (mol, msa) are hard because people are used to easy mode 4-man Dungeons. That's thanks to all from me above mentioned stuff.

[/quot

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

"infinite sustain"
If you are not in a coordinated PvE group with buffs and your healers dedicated to your resources, your "infinite sustain" will be gone without 30 seconds in a best in slot set up. I still don't see the issue here with changing it.
And to redo this in PvE it's going to possibly kill it unless you get buffed elsewhere. No one wants to struggle in best in slot set ups and resort to running regen set ups to get the end result anyway.

Welcome to the new world order. We must be nerfed because....raisens.

This actually makes more sense than their "we want to raise the floor and lower the ceiling" nonsense on why they want to remove CP

Lylith · March 2017

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Birdovic wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

WhiteMage wrote: »

That's good, but... combat is still better without CP.

You clearly don't play PVE at all. That would cripple players into Oblivion

Saying it again:
There was a time that we didn't have CP.
And no access to super strong sets.
And no Monster Sets.
And had lower max level(-> less Dmg)
And had Soft Caps.
And had stronger enchantments.
And had weaker traits.
And no MSA Weapons.
And overall tons of passive buffs to everything since that time.
And other stuff I forgot to mention.

And...we still managed.

Sure, PvE got adjusted, too by giving mobs and bosses more health, but besides that? Nothing. vMoL and vMSA for instance are simply adjusted to be hard compared to most other dungeons.
They (mol, msa) are hard because people are used to easy mode 4-man Dungeons. That's thanks to all from me above mentioned stuff.

@Birdovic

We managed with radically different balance, costs, scaling, and everything else. Comparing one to the other is comparing apples to oranges.

Dont speak on the issue if you dont know what your talking about. I'm old enough to -remember- said soft cap era, and I prefer it. But comparing that landscape to this one is apples to oranges.

yes, some of us managed. otoh, some of us quit and have never returned.

JinMori · March 2017

Nifty2g wrote: »

"infinite sustain"
If you are not in a coordinated PvE group with buffs and your healers dedicated to your resources, your "infinite sustain" will be gone without 30 seconds in a best in slot set up. I still don't see the issue here with changing it.
And to redo this in PvE it's going to possibly kill it unless you get buffed elsewhere. No one wants to struggle in best in slot set ups and resort to running regen set ups to get the end result anyway.

Exactly, this is what i said in one of my other posts, without a good group, your sustain will go to *** with bis.

Ep1kMalware · March 2017

gard wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

gard wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

Dao_Jones wrote: »

I guess I'm actually indifferent to this change, because I don't play at a high enough level where this will ever matter to me.

I'm more annoyed that I came back to the game, and now racials matter. Racials should absolutely NOT matter; something like character appearance should always be driven by player choice - not mandated by the fear of making your character irrelevant for end-game content. That is an absolutely horrible choice ZOS has forced on players. (And one that has no precedent in previous ES games.)

...but that's not really germane to this thread, I guess. (Except that they'll matter even more, if one of the critical sources for resource management will be racial passives. I suppose I'll be glad I picked Breton for my new MagSorc, instead of Dunmer.

Its an MMO of course they are going to matter. And while race didnt "matter" in single player Elder Scrolls games, there was certainly "benefits" to certain races. Altmer and Breton got more Magicka in games. Orcs had that crazy once a day power in Skyrim. So yeah racials should matter. Plus with race change being 3000 crowns its not going away any time soon.

I direct you to WoW, where Racials largely didn't, outside of PVP. And even when it did it was one racial for PVP.

They shouldn't to the point where if you pick a different race you fail. Period.

What content exists that can't be completed by toons of any race?

There isn't any. If someone is failing at <insert activity here>, then the problem lies elsewhere. Race is not enough to significantly affect the chance to succeed or fail any content in this game.

First time I did vma I dis it on a bosmer stamina templar. Sure there was some l2p involved, but had I been a redguard I could have saved myself 10hrs of agony and just looted the chest.

Sure I do it np at all now, but it did make a huge meaningful difference.

First run through, I think you'd have spent that 10 hours or close to it regardless of the race you chose.

More to the point, you did not fail, and even if you had, it wouldn't have been because you were a bosmer.

I *still* haven't completed it on my orc nb, but it ain't 'cause I chose orc over khajiit.

Nah I meant on last boss alone. I couldnt sustain for the longest time. Had issues dpsing the crystals, running to the shield jf it spawned far away. Had I been a reddguard life wouldve been different.

Deal is, templar doesn't have 'in combat sustain' like nb/stamsorc have, you achiece that lovely, lovely stam return with redguard.

Ashtaris · March 2017

So Mr. /lurk (Rich Lambert) says there is no counter to cost reduction (another PVP thing?) and that we have unlimited resources. Sheesh, I wish my CP600 Stamblade knew that because during long pve dungeon and trial fights, I'm constantly running out of resources. Nevermind I have no self heals besides Vigor to depend on. And will this change pigeonhole us more into absolutely demanding a Templar Healer to help with resource management (shards, repentence)? And yes, before you ask, I try to weave in heavy's to keep my stam up, but then we are loosing DPS to do so. I'm probably going to retire my stamblade after this next patch if things stay the same with this stupid cost reduction nerf. Sometimes I wonder if the devs play the same game I do, and if any of them have a stamblade?

BuddyAces · March 2017

All I have to say is grr! "Face palm"

Ep1kMalware · March 2017

Ashtaris wrote: »

So Mr. /lurk (Rich Lambert) says there is no counter to cost reduction (another PVP thing?) and that we have unlimited resources. Sheesh, I wish my CP600 Stamblade knew that because during long fights, I'm constantly running out of resources. Nevermind I have no self heals besides Vigor to depend on. And will this change pigeonhole us more into absolutely demanding a Templar Healer to help with resource management (shards, repentence)? And yes, before you ask, I try to weave in heavy's to keep my stam up, but then we are loosing DPS to do so. I'm probably going to retire my stamblade after this next patch if things stay the same with this stupid cost reduction nerf. Sometimes I wonder if the devs play the same game I do, and if any of them have a stamblade?

Was that on the eso live today? So it's official then? First they force us to put pnts into reduction by increasing skill costs and then thy just remove it?

Ashtaris · March 2017

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Ashtaris wrote: »

So Mr. /lurk (Rich Lambert) says there is no counter to cost reduction (another PVP thing?) and that we have unlimited resources. Sheesh, I wish my CP600 Stamblade knew that because during long fights, I'm constantly running out of resources. Nevermind I have no self heals besides Vigor to depend on. And will this change pigeonhole us more into absolutely demanding a Templar Healer to help with resource management (shards, repentence)? And yes, before you ask, I try to weave in heavy's to keep my stam up, but then we are loosing DPS to do so. I'm probably going to retire my stamblade after this next patch if things stay the same with this stupid cost reduction nerf. Sometimes I wonder if the devs play the same game I do, and if any of them have a stamblade?

Was that on the eso live today? So it's official then? First they force us to put pnts into reduction by increasing skill costs and then thy just remove it?

Well it was official as of the ESO Live, but that doesn't mean it has to be official as of the release of Morrowind. We still have time to voice our displeasure of the changes and have them revert it.

JinMori · March 2017

Ashtaris wrote: »

So Mr. /lurk (Rich Lambert) says there is no counter to cost reduction (another PVP thing?) and that we have unlimited resources. Sheesh, I wish my CP600 Stamblade knew that because during long pve dungeon and trial fights, I'm constantly running out of resources. Nevermind I have no self heals besides Vigor to depend on. And will this change pigeonhole us more into absolutely demanding a Templar Healer to help with resource management (shards, repentence)? And yes, before you ask, I try to weave in heavy's to keep my stam up, but then we are loosing DPS to do so. I'm probably going to retire my stamblade after this next patch if things stay the same with this stupid cost reduction nerf. Sometimes I wonder if the devs play the same game I do, and if any of them have a stamblade?

So there is no counter to cost reduction? Mmm how about the *** poisons?

emilyhyoyeon · March 2017

theher0not wrote: »

If this is true I hope it gets reverted. Or at lwast replaced with something equaly usefull.

Putting points into them is really good way to compensate for my lack of magica racials on my khajiit healer.

yeah same. I really don't understand the hate for CP. wouldn't no CP get rid of build variety by forcing people to only use optimal races and builds for roles? I'm so sad. I think the issue with PVP in this game has to do with much more than CP

Ep1kMalware · March 2017

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

theher0not wrote: »

If this is true I hope it gets reverted. Or at lwast replaced with something equaly usefull.

Putting points into them is really good way to compensate for my lack of magica racials on my khajiit healer.

yeah same. I really don't understand the hate for CP. wouldn't no CP get rid of build variety by forcing people to only use optimal races and builds for roles? I'm so sad. I think the issue with PVP in this game has to do with much more than CP

Yeh same here. I don't see how powercreep is hurting the game. If anything it's allowing less dedicated players to clear the game's content. The only thing it'll affect for me is stg9 vma boss on my stam templar main. I'll slot engine guardian if I have to xD

It will however affect players struggling to clear much less demanding content, and put the other stuff so far out of reach they'll quit before they touch it.