UNDAUNTED METTLE

SanderBuraas · March 2017

This passive must be changed. It increases your resource pools by 6% each if you wear at least one of each armour type. This makes it mandatory for those who min/max and important in PvP.

Let's say you have 35,000 Magicka, 16,000 Health and 9,000 Stamina – the passive gives you an extra 2,100 Magicka, 960 Health and 540 Stamina.

It may seem silly to be opposed to the passive, but percentage stat boosts are negative to the game, at least when it comes to balance. Just like racial passives, the Undaunted Mettle passive needs to be reworked – to be relevant to group play, for example.

Smepic wrote: »

Let's see what I gain if I wear seven light armour vs. five light, one medium and one heavy armour.

Seven light armour:
Reduces cost of Magicka spells by 6% (2300 Magicka * 0,94 = 2162)

Increases Magicka Recovery by 8% (1500 Magicka Recovery * 0,08 = 120)

Five light, one medium and one heavy armour:
Increases Magicka, Health and Stamina by 6% (35,000 Magicka * 1,06 = 37,100. 16,000 Health * 1,06 = 16,960. 9,000 Stamina * 1,06 = 9,540)

Increases Armour and Spell Resistance by 362, as well as 1978 from the heavy and medium armour pieces, meaning 3,5% mitigation (2340 / 660 = 3,54)

Increases Health Recovery by 4%

You restore 186 Magicka and Stamina each time you are hit, once every 4 seconds, meaning 93 Magicka and Stamina Recovery (186 / 2 = 93)

Increases Health by 2% (16,960 * 1,02 = 17,299)

Increases Stamina Recovery by 4%

Reduces the cost of sneaking by 7%

Reduces the cost of your detection area by 5%

Now tell me why you shouldn't take advantage of the passive.

Edit: For those who don't care about PvP balance, there is no reason for you to reply. The thread is aimed at PvP, as most of mine are.

IronCrystal · March 2017

How is this bad for the game? Your only reasoning is "it's negative".

Turelus · March 2017

They're balanced in that you lose benefits from your armour skills as well.

They would be more balanced however if ZOS ever untied resource values from damage of skills.

Wreuntzylla · March 2017

I would have agreed with you when undaunted experience was a long slog. However, now you get undaunted experience for sneezing in a dungeon, and I've seen people max their passives in a handful of hours.

SanderBuraas · March 2017

IronCrystal wrote: »

How is this bad for the game? Your only reasoning is "it's negative".

@IronCrystal

My mistake to assume forum users would be reasonable enough to realize it by themselves. Though, the third sentence in the original post is mostly the reason.

IronCrystal · March 2017

Smepic wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

How is this bad for the game? Your only reasoning is "it's negative".

@IronCrystal

My mistake to assume forum users would be reasonable enough to realize it by themselves. Though, the third sentence in the original post is mostly the reason.

You must be referring to this:

Let's say you have 35,000 Magicka, 16,000 Health and 9,000 Stamina – the passive gives you an extra 2,100 Magicka, 960 Health and 540 Stamina.

What is so bad about that? There are plenty of things that give stats in this game.

EDIT: This is also available to all classes, so I don't see any unbalance here. Plenty of things in this game are "required" for all classes.

Jaeysa · March 2017

I don't think it's bad for pve, but not a huge fan of making someone who just wants to pvp have to sink time doing dungeons that they might find deadly boring.

Might not be terrible to disable it for PVP.

alexkdd99 · March 2017

Smepic wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

How is this bad for the game? Your only reasoning is "it's negative".

@IronCrystal

My mistake to assume forum users would be reasonable enough to realize it by themselves. Though, the third sentence in the original post is mostly the reason.

You really have not explained how it is bad. Just that you believe it is bad because it is percent based bonus. It would help to post some sort of evidence to why it is bad. News flash check out the armor passives.

Anyone can get this passive, but you lose out on having 7 pieces boosting your regular armors passives.(medium, light, or heavy)

Berenhir · March 2017

Smepic wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

How is this bad for the game? Your only reasoning is "it's negative".

@IronCrystal

My mistake to assume forum users would be reasonable enough to realize it by themselves. Though, the third sentence in the original post is mostly the reason.

You trade/spread armor boni for additional resources. Sounds reasonable. You may state that you don't like the way it works, but nothing "must" be changed just because you don't like it.

On a side note: Backing up your point of view with the insult that forum users are too slow witted to grasp the reasoning for your wishes and preferences is not a good way to start a controversial discussion.

Biro123 · March 2017

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

I would have agreed with you when undaunted experience was a long slog. However, now you get undaunted experience for sneezing in a dungeon, and I've seen people max their passives in a handful of hours.

That may be the case if you have a very one-dimensional viewpoint..

For those of us who just like to PVP - and don't like doing dungeons, hate pledges, dailies and so don't have a regular dungeon group its one hell of a grind.. in fact I just finished it for the first ever time after 9 months playing. It is a VERY long slog.

Its also VERY useful to many PVP setups in all aspects... my magsorc... around 2.5k more magica is huge.. more health - great.. more stam - that helps with one of the main magsorc weaknesses..
Wearing different armour types... hm, a bit more resists? can't complain.. a little resource return (constitution) - all good, esp. stam.. dodge cost reduction? all good.

Its has made a BIG difference to my PVP performance.

I also agree with the view that % stat boosts are bad. Especially as stats get higher and higher as the relative strength of these boosts get proportionally stronger. 6% of 10k isn't much.. but 6% of 55k? That's significant.

EldritchPenguin · March 2017

Smepic wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

How is this bad for the game? Your only reasoning is "it's negative".

@IronCrystal

My mistake to assume forum users would be reasonable enough to realize it by themselves. Though, the third sentence in the original post is mostly the reason.

If you want to advocate for a change in anything, you must rationalize it, or else nobody is going to take you seriously. What is blatantly obvious to you may be completely unnoticed by someone else, no matter the intellect or reasonability of your audience. And even if they are smart and/or reasonable enough to figure it out on their own, they'll still want to hear your reasoning, so that they can tell that you know what you're talking about, and that you're not just going, "Change X thing because I don't like it!"

On the other hand, I've found that gear, skill, and CPs are substantially more important in PvP than Undaunted Mettle. Yes, gaining every last mathematical advantage is still important in PvP, but not nearly to the extent that it is in PvE. Not to mention that it's one of the smaller mathematical advantages you can get in the first place. I mean, I'm currently getting about 4k Magicka and almost 25% more damage from CP, and I only have 300 points. I don't see Undaunted Mettle as a huge problem in light of that.

NBrookus · March 2017

I think Undaunted passives are there for PVE progression... as you do more dungeons, you get stronger. Min-maxxers are gonna min max though. I doubt they will remove this, but I wouldn't mind if the passive only took effect in dungeons and trials. PVPers could ignore it and PVEers would get the boost in the content where they actually need it.

The devs want people to play all aspects of the game. They put useful skills behind pvp, and useful skills and stats and gear behind pve. I think the balance is reasonable at this point, except the gear grind -- and even that would be okay if the RNG on the overland boxes you buy with AP wasn't so awful.

code65536 · March 2017

Oh no! Have you seen the stats that you get when you eat food? PVP MIN-MAXERS ALL EAT FOOD! THAT'S UNBALANCED! CHANGE IT NOW!

Don't be ridiculous.

As other have put it, every class, every player has access to this passive. The use of this passive also means trading away the benefits from the user's main armor type. Many PvPers choose to go 7M or 7H instead of 5/1/1 because for their build and playstyle the extra stats aren't worth the lost armor passives. Tell me again how that's not balanced? LOL.

Jaeysa · March 2017

code65536 wrote: »

Oh no! Have you seen the stats that you get when you eat food? PVP MIN-MAXERS ALL EAT FOOD! THAT'S UNBALANCED! CHANGE IT NOW!

Don't be ridiculous.

As other have put it, every class, every player has access to this passive. The use of this passive also means trading away the benefits from the user's main armor type. Many PvPers choose to go 7M or 7H instead of 5/1/1 because for their build and playstyle the extra stats aren't worth the lost armor passives. Tell me again how that's not balanced? LOL.

My thing isn't that it's not balanced - it's that personally I don't feel that a PVPer should have to PVE in order to be competitive. Play how you want and all that. It'd be a fairly easy fix - just disable mettle during pvp.

psychotic13 · March 2017

It's open to everyone to use, and many build use 5/2 and get just the 4% bonus instead of 6% I don't see how it's unbalanced

code65536 · March 2017

Jaeysa wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Oh no! Have you seen the stats that you get when you eat food? PVP MIN-MAXERS ALL EAT FOOD! THAT'S UNBALANCED! CHANGE IT NOW!

Don't be ridiculous.

As other have put it, every class, every player has access to this passive. The use of this passive also means trading away the benefits from the user's main armor type. Many PvPers choose to go 7M or 7H instead of 5/1/1 because for their build and playstyle the extra stats aren't worth the lost armor passives. Tell me again how that's not balanced? LOL.

My thing isn't that it's not balanced - it's that personally I don't feel that a PVPer should have to PVE in order to be competitive. Play how you want and all that. It'd be a fairly easy fix - just disable mettle during pvp.

I used to get Undaunted 9 in ten days of pledging. Then One Tamriel dropped, adding a gazillion new dungeon achievements, all of which granting Undaunted progress. My latest character reached Undaunted 9 in about five days of pledging.

People shouldn't just PvE or just PvP. I like that essential PvE abilities like Vigor and War Horn are locked behind a modest amount of PvP, and that useful passives like Mettle are locked behind a modest amount of PvE. A one-time "cost" of five or so days of vet HM pledges is not an undue burden.

runagate · March 2017

You needn't even wait for the pledges to get the achievements. You can just hop in dungeons whenever you like.

Sordidfairytale · March 2017

Jaeysa wrote: »

It'd be a fairly easy fix - just disable mettle during pvp.

What do you tell the PVP'r that PVE'd in order to get this skill?

Bottom line, quit whining and realize that any player can be a member of up to 5 guilds. Get in a PVE or PVX guild and L2P.

DHale · March 2017

It is not negative to this game at all. It makes you think about your build and in the case of medium armor you give up damage for a little mire resources. It gives you a reason to level your undaunted skill line. So ridulous it's laughable. It is no different than thinking about race or class or a dozen other variables in making your build.

FlyLionel · March 2017

Smepic wrote: »

This passive must be changed. It increases your resource pools by 6% each if you wear at least one of each armour type. This makes it mandatory for those who min/max and important in PvP.

Let's say you have 35,000 Magicka, 16,000 Health and 9,000 Stamina – the passive gives you an extra 2,100 Magicka, 960 Health and 540 Stamina.

It may seem silly to be opposed to the passive, but percentage stat boosts are negative to the game, at least when it comes to balance. Just like racial passives, the Undaunted Mettle passive needs to be reworked – to be relevant to group play, for example.

Edit: For those who don't care about PvP balance, there is no reason for you to reply. The thread is aimed at PvP, as most of mine are.

I see where you're coming from. With resource so easy to manage going 5-1-1 is a slap on the wrist(a must really). Grants higher dps simply put. If you go 7 medium all you get would be more resources ,yes? So the difference is more resources or damage, and there is a clear cut winner. But I will add that I believe there were screenshots taken from Morrowinds expansion of the CP tree where all resources were stripped(you only get 15% regen MAX now). So hopefully there will be a reason to go full light/medium now, and if someone uses 5-1-1 next update they will be juggling their resources in return for more damage; just at a greater cost! I've always played 7 medium since the game came out and recently changed to 5-1-1 and yes the difference is big so hopefully there will be more of an incentive. More waiting yo.

Edit: I agree 100% about the group play thing. If you aren't in 5-1-1 in a group, they have to start grinding lol..No brainer.

Tyrobag · March 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

I would have agreed with you when undaunted experience was a long slog. However, now you get undaunted experience for sneezing in a dungeon, and I've seen people max their passives in a handful of hours.

That may be the case if you have a very one-dimensional viewpoint..

For those of us who just like to PVP - and don't like doing dungeons, hate pledges, dailies and so don't have a regular dungeon group its one hell of a grind.. in fact I just finished it for the first ever time after 9 months playing. It is a VERY long slog.

Its also VERY useful to many PVP setups in all aspects... my magsorc... around 2.5k more magica is huge.. more health - great.. more stam - that helps with one of the main magsorc weaknesses..
Wearing different armour types... hm, a bit more resists? can't complain.. a little resource return (constitution) - all good, esp. stam.. dodge cost reduction? all good.

Its has made a BIG difference to my PVP performance.

I also agree with the view that % stat boosts are bad. Especially as stats get higher and higher as the relative strength of these boosts get proportionally stronger. 6% of 10k isn't much.. but 6% of 55k? That's significant.

Ok, then let PvE get Vigor, War Horn, and all of the other abilities locked behind the PvP wall without doing PvP. Undaunted has one, fairly balanced (as anyone can use it), passive and a few skills that arent particularly useful for pvp. There are two skill lines of useful skills for PvE locked behind PvP.

On to the issue at hand. I don't see how these are "unbalanced" seeing as absolutely everybody has the same available access to them. If they were class specific, and on a class that was already better than all the others, that would be different. But this is not the case.

NBrookus · March 2017

code65536 wrote: »

I used to get Undaunted 9 in ten days of pledging. Then One Tamriel dropped, adding a gazillion new dungeon achievements, all of which granting Undaunted progress. My latest character reached Undaunted 9 in about five days of pledging.

People shouldn't just PvE or just PvP. I like that essential PvE abilities like Vigor and War Horn are locked behind a modest amount of PvP, and that useful passives like Mettle are locked behind a modest amount of PvE. A one-time "cost" of five or so days of vet HM pledges is not an undue burden.

Code, most PVPers don't have a bunch of high test PVE friends who can complete all their no death speed runs on hard mode in one shot in order to get max Undaunted in 5 days. Grinding Undaunted often means pugging the easier ones and hoping you get a good group that can manage hard mode. It's much easier than it was, but it's still not anywhere close to 5 days for most people.

This is like when PVPers insist it takes a few hours to get Caltrops. It does... if you already know how to do it and have a team to run with.

Wrekkedd · March 2017

It's really easy to get now, and let's be real...you're not using a monster set in PvP? You have to some dungeons for that..

Zvorgin · March 2017

If I'm trying to min/max survivablilty in PvP I'm probably going 7 heavy so how is this required?

OP needs to look at the issue from other perspectives. Also, dumb threads like this calling for overhauls are why fundamentals of the game change every patch and it's getting old. The system isn't completely broken and doesn't need constant overhauls.

alexkdd99 · March 2017

Jaeysa wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Oh no! Have you seen the stats that you get when you eat food? PVP MIN-MAXERS ALL EAT FOOD! THAT'S UNBALANCED! CHANGE IT NOW!

Don't be ridiculous.

As other have put it, every class, every player has access to this passive. The use of this passive also means trading away the benefits from the user's main armor type. Many PvPers choose to go 7M or 7H instead of 5/1/1 because for their build and playstyle the extra stats aren't worth the lost armor passives. Tell me again how that's not balanced? LOL.

My thing isn't that it's not balanced - it's that personally I don't feel that a PVPer should have to PVE in order to be competitive. Play how you want and all that. It'd be a fairly easy fix - just disable mettle during pvp.

Kind of how stam users are forced to pvp to have a decent heal? It goes both ways and both sides complain about it. Your personal beliefs aren't a good enough reason for them to change their game.

I would wager that vigor is needed quite a bit more than mettle.

If zos changed their game every time a player suggested they do so because of the players personal beliefs we would have the worst game in mmo history. Many players have conflicting beliefs so let's leave those out when asking for Zos to change the game.

Play the entire game and this won't be an issue.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2017

You didnt make an argument. Sounds like someone doesnt want to run dungeons...

catalyst10e · March 2017

My only real issue with it, was that it's primarily a PVP passive (or at least in my experience it's mostly PVPers who claim to NEED this passive) and its locked behind a PVE wall. It reads like something that should be in the assult skill tree.

To the topic tho, I can see where you're coming from on % based stat changes, but to me, it's trading the full value of one particular armor set in oder to gain just a bit from all of them. Even when you dont have the passive, 5/1/1 is still a viable way to get a little bit of extra resistances and utilize a couple of the other passives from other armor skill lines.

SanderBuraas · March 2017

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

You didnt make an argument. Sounds like someone doesnt want to run dungeons...

@Oreyn_Bearclaw

I'm not complaining about the time it takes to get the passive, but the passive itself. Use one piece of each armour and get 6% increased resources? It doesn't make a lot of sense.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2017

Fair enough, but that's actually not quite how it works.

If you have the passive maxed and wear 7 heavy, you still get a 2% increase in stats. If you wear 5 heavy 2 light (or medium) you get a 4% stat increase. If you go 5/1/1 you get 6%.

A lot of people in cyro don't go 5/1/1. It's by know means mandatory, but it does give you a small buff if you diversify your armor. I guess I don't see the problem.

Edit: I would also argue that the only build where this is mandatory is PVE DPS. Plenty of PVPers to 7 heavy or maybe 5/2. Basically every min/max DPS build is 5/1/1

TheRealPotoroo · March 2017

Jaeysa wrote: »

I don't think it's bad for pve, but not a huge fan of making someone who just wants to pvp have to sink time doing dungeons that they might find deadly boring.

Might not be terrible to disable it for PVP.

Only if Vigor is disabled for PvE.

idk · March 2017

It's a passive anyone can get. Very balanced in that manner. One of the last things I'd look at for balance.