SupremeTravie wrote: »

NB is mostly an offensive class. They have less survivalbility than rest of the classes. Most cases when an NB is caught out of stealth they die rather quickly.I'm assuming you just cannot catch them and they put the jukes on you.Plus it's a class based around stealth. You want to take that away from a key role of the class. What sense does that make? There are many counters to gankers. Plenty of forums to read about it. I suggest read up man.

Ah the other often-paraded bit of nonsense in these threads, that somehow nightblade is a disadvantaged class that lacks defense, and so it must be able to disappear because fighting someone who can actually target you is too difficult for such a weak class. Give me a break.

Ganking is toxic. It leads to everyone rolling tanks because they are sick of being one-shot out of the blue from a stamblade. It also promotes zerging because people who don't want to be tanks are moving in packs because it makes them less of a target. It promotes people to mindlessly counter-siege from a keep wall instead of coming out for real fights. Incidentally, these are usually the reasons gankers list for why they gank! They complain about zergs and tanks, but they are the direct result of ganking!

There is nothing good or at all positive about full-timer gankers running gank builds. They do not contribute anything to the gameplay value, and they are mostly just a nuisance and source for harassment to people who are actually trying to pvp. Nothing more than spoilers.

I think so many people cry about nightblade having no survivability -- except for cloak -- because they don't want to run a build made for survivability. They want their high burst ganking build, and they want it to be even more survivable than a well-rounded or even a tank build. They actually want to be able to do massive burst and then completely disengage and get away without anyone being able to fight them back. There is nothing competitive about that kind of gameplay, and there is certainly no sportsmanship involved. They don't want fights, they want victims. There is something a little disturbing about that kind of victimization, where someone finds it satisfying to have another person in a position where they are helpless to defend themselves. Sure this is just a game, but I find that people tend to play character archetypes that suit their personality.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

SupremeTravie wrote: »

NB is mostly an offensive class. They have less survivalbility than rest of the classes. Most cases when an NB is caught out of stealth they die rather quickly.I'm assuming you just cannot catch them and they put the jukes on you.Plus it's a class based around stealth. You want to take that away from a key role of the class. What sense does that make? There are many counters to gankers. Plenty of forums to read about it. I suggest read up man.

Ah the other often-paraded bit of nonsense in these threads, that somehow nightblade is a disadvantaged class that lacks defense, and so it must be able to disappear because fighting someone who can actually target you is too difficult for such a weak class. Give me a break.

Ganking is toxic. It leads to everyone rolling tanks because they are sick of being one-shout out of the blue from a stamblade. It also promotes zerging because people who don't want to be tanks are moving in packs because it makes them less of a target. It promotes people to mindlessly counter-siege from a keep wall instead of coming out for real fight. There is nothing good at all positive about full-timer gankers with gank builds. They do not contribute anything to the gameplay value, and they are mostly just a nuisance and source for harassment to people who are actually trying to pvp.

I think so many people cry about nightblade having no survivability -- except for cloak -- because they don't want to run a build made for survivability. They want their high burst ganking build, and they want it to be even more survivable than a well-rounded or even a tank build. They actually want to be able to do massive burst and then completely disengage and get away without anyone being able to fight them back. There is nothing competitive about that kind of gameplay, and there is certainly no sportsmanship involved.

I have to disagree.
Sorc has streak and dark deal - which is over the top OP, and hurricane/boundless storm that buffs resistance, good AOE
DK has igneous shield (which gives back stam and provides a damage shield), a buff to resistance, and Major Mending.
Templar can cleanse, have a buff to resistance, and Major Mending.

Nightblade has .... umm, ummm, ummm Mirage. That's it. Mirage. There's just no way to build towards survivability for a nightblade, unless you run Troll King. But Troll King itself is cancerous.

Oh, and rolling tanks has nothing to do with "sick of being one-shout out of the blue from a stamblade".
People will still zerg no matter what. It has nothing to do with ganking.
People counter-siege from keep wall because if they go down they will get zerged, it has nothing to do with stamblades.
Nothing sportmanship in PvP openworld. Is zerging sportmanship? Nah. People still do it.

There are certain combinations of setups that make ganking toxic. Ganking itself is fine. There are counterplays to ganking if the setup is not toxic: block or dodge their Incap, use your situational awareness (explained above).

There is plenty of sportsmanship from respectable players. There are also a lot of trolls. Ganking promotes zerging and tank builds. When you are weaker, you are more likely to run in a zerg, because it's just not fun to get rolled over either by an enemy zerg or by gankers. Trueflame on PC-NA during no cp week has been massive, massive zergs, much more than normal primetime zerging. But the worst part is that siege is wrecking everyone. There is not much even a coordinated, balanced raid of good players can do when they are being hammered with siege. You can't even run along a keep wall without having multiple siege hitting you from every angle. The sustain to heal and purge through the insane amount of siege is just not there for a group with a sufficient damage to spike to wipe an opposing force.

The no cp meta is sheer numbers and tons of siege right now. Even open field siege is happening like I can't ever remember seeing outside of bwb. Most people have had to give up defense for sustain, except gankers can still be full burst then dip out. So people are much more susceptible to ganking in no-cp, which is a factor in the zerging. Even people that you don't usually see rolling with the zergs are surfing right now. It's a great time to be a stamblade ganker, and and a bad time to be basically any magicka build because of needing to go full sustain.

Mirage is not all nightblade has. They also have amazing passives like shadow barrier which is free major resist buffs, they have ult gen from pots, they have 15% increased recovery, they have max health bonus, they have increased crits and weapon/spell damage for bigger self-heal ticks, they have two of the most powerful defensive ults in the game: soul siphon and shadow barrier. Dark cloak gives minor protection. Mass Hysteria and shade inflict minor maim. Plus all of you have vigor/rally or healing ward/dampen magicka. Everything you are talking about from other classes can be substituted with weapon/armor abilities. There is nothing else even remotely like cloak.

I know about incap, at least 75% of my deaths (no lie) are from incap burst combos. You can't block/dodge incap out of stealth, or if you're stunned and breaking free from crouch heavy attack or fear. Besides that, magicka builds can't really block or dodge without risking getting cc-locked. And magicka builds are the squishy lower health, light armor targets gankers like to pick, because without their shields (which last only 6s now) or some other defenses up, they are just free kills. People don't try to gank tanks or a zergball, which is the primary reason why there are so many tanks right now.

The extremely high levels of toxic ganking is the root problem of everything wrong with cyrodiil right now. Even the nasty destro ult bomb squads and scarcity of small scale pvp is because of ganking. The good players who don't want to be ganked aren't mindlessly zerging, they roll in coordinated groups. Those groups have to ult bomb specifically with desto ult because it's the only way to burst down the tanks without resorting to being coordinated field siege squads, which is borderline goofy. The tanks are so abundant because it's a counter to the ganking. Ironically, the only people who can get away with being squishy right now are nightblades, because they have cloak. The ganking is the root problem. If you reign in the effectiveness of gank builds (not nightblades in general, just specifically gank builds), Cyrodiil will become a much more diverse and less cancerous place.

There are plenty of builds that are completely ungankable.

Reactive or Plague Doctor + Transmutation + Defensive monster set. (Just as an example)

Sword and board on the back bar. All armor impen. Don't even need to slot magelight with that.

A NB can open from stealth while you stand the and push emotes mocking them.

Most gankers won't bother with a 30k target.

You can't have it all, mate. If you're getting ganked, change your build to counter it and L2P.

JinMori wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Everyone here is saying slot magelight, use detect potions etc, but all of that don't take in account one thing, what happens when you have a guy that you didn't see because he was sneaking up your ass from behind, then use crouch and cloak, then heavy attack and Gn you are dead. Those counters only works if you know that there is someone around, who is gonna use radiant or waste a potion if he doesn't know that there is someone around, ill tell you who. No one. I just wish that there was a better way to use a nb in pvp other then ganking, for me sneaking behind players isn't fun.
Yea nb should have some kind of mechanic that increases damage from stealth, but this is way too much.

So what do they accomplish killing you in the middle of nowhere? Theres not much of a penalty to dieing in this game. If its in a battle that matters, you will get rezed or your side is defeated anyway. How is it any different than being zerged down?

The reason I will run as a ganker is I do not want to zerg up or don't have people I am grouping with little small scale fights being few and far between.

You never had the experience of getting ganked while you are fighting against multiple players, then suddenly a nb from stealth shows up and you get one shotted from a heavy attack, i tell you it's pretty annoying.

LOL. In that situation you should die, regardless if the guy was a ganker nb or not. You are just salty as hell because you couldn't finish your kill and probably got T bagged after that. That is the whole source of why you make this thread.

As much as it irritates the [snip] out of me when I get ganked, do I want a nerf to NB's? Absolutely not.

But getting ganked is only a small irritation compared to the irritation I feel when people come to the forum to whine for nerf's to stuff because they don't like it or won't/can't counter it <.<

[Edit for censor bypass]

JinMori wrote: »

I said it many times and i will say it again, the damage that nb get from stealth is cancerous to the game, it needs to be removed, or at least toned down. It's useless in pve, and it's cancerous in pvp, this "skill" literally adds nothing good to the game, it only icentivize unskillfull playing, and cancerous builds.
I wonder what would happen if all the nb gankers got they're precious buff removed, and would be forced to actually play with skills.
And this comes from a guy that has 2 nb, one magicka and one stamina.

Would cripple the "ganker" playstyle, yet cripple nightblades, who don't just gank, even worse.

That extra damage boost is critical for a NB. NBs don't get all the nifty healing bonuses other classs get, or all the mitigation other classes get. Being able to burst down enemies is their offensive defense. If cloak actually worked maybe NB would have a viable defensive ability, but it doesn't.

"Nightblade ridiculous damage from stealth needs to be removed"

So remove all ridiculous sorcerer and templar dmg too ?
NB can hit hard ONE target. Sorcerer can hit hard AOE, multiple targets... is that fair ? ?

NB is the class that heavy rely on stealth. In pvp there are too many ways to counter stealth, reducing NB efficiency to like 50 % or less. And it is funny how there is now way to "un - summon" sorcerer's pets or de-buff templar & dragonknight buffs.

And if you played a NB in PvP you know that if you make a 1 - 2 shot stealth kill build - it not always work. If you failed to kill the target - then you are dead. And even if you kill the target - chances are you are dead soon... Furthermore - if you use this ganker build, you are basically glass canon. You sacrifice literally everything in order to have high single - target dmg.
So.. I will dare to that stealth kill NB is probably the most difficult to play type of role in PvP. Very high risk - and high reward.

btw. If you have troubles with NB gankers then you always can have 7 pieces impenetrable heavy armour...

JinMori wrote: »

Greevir wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Delegator wrote: »

What a stupid rant. People who claim that stealthers play "without skill" are just those who don't have the skill themselves to deal with it. Here's an idea -- use radiant magelight to cut damage from stealth in half. Be alert. Use damage shields and/or elude and/or immovable to increase resists. Etc. etc. etc.

Validating it by saying that you have 2 NBs is pointless. I have 3 NB (1 stamina, 1 magicka, 1 tank) and 6 other max-level characters. So yeah, I see it from both sides. Anybody who thinks that a gank from stealth is a sure thing is just plain simple-minded and wrong.

Crouch, cloak u, charge a heavy attack, surprise attack, maybe proc set, dead, now tell me where is the skill in this.
How is the other player supposed to react if you don;t see him, the only way to avoid a gank is if you saw the dude before he went into stealth, that's it, you can't counter something if you can't even see it coming.

The skill is surviving the buddies of the guy you just killed. Oh, you were running around by yourself? That's your problem then.

I don't think that most gankers have the guts to attack an entire group, they usually just pick a random guy when no one else is around. If you manage to take down a group by ganking you have my respect, because that actually takes skills, but killing a single guy with the insane burst you get from crouch? no

1 nightblade with vicious death can take out entire zerg in split second...a zerg containing even 45k hp tanks.I've seen it happen so many times. Instant death of 30+ people who we're too close to each other.

You can have all the mage light you want and good nb will still stealth attack you. It's not hard at all.

I agree. WHile you are at it, please remove healing skills from Templars, CC and dragon skills from DK, and any Sorc AOE, including hurricane, crit surge, etc.

It's already been said here - if you have a stealth class, and remove the incentive to have stealth (increased damage while in stealth), remove the class.

It seems your justification for it is you don't like dying. Could you present us with some math - maybe DPS comparisons or something - that show that DPS overall for NB -stamina or magicka -- is too high (much higher than other classes) because of the higher crit chance while stealthed?

bowmanz607 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

SupremeTravie wrote: »

NB is mostly an offensive class. They have less survivalbility than rest of the classes. Most cases when an NB is caught out of stealth they die rather quickly.I'm assuming you just cannot catch them and they put the jukes on you.Plus it's a class based around stealth. You want to take that away from a key role of the class. What sense does that make? There are many counters to gankers. Plenty of forums to read about it. I suggest read up man.

Ah the other often-paraded bit of nonsense in these threads, that somehow nightblade is a disadvantaged class that lacks defense, and so it must be able to disappear because fighting someone who can actually target you is too difficult for such a weak class. Give me a break.

Ganking is toxic. It leads to everyone rolling tanks because they are sick of being one-shout out of the blue from a stamblade. It also promotes zerging because people who don't want to be tanks are moving in packs because it makes them less of a target. It promotes people to mindlessly counter-siege from a keep wall instead of coming out for real fight. There is nothing good at all positive about full-timer gankers with gank builds. They do not contribute anything to the gameplay value, and they are mostly just a nuisance and source for harassment to people who are actually trying to pvp.

I think so many people cry about nightblade having no survivability -- except for cloak -- because they don't want to run a build made for survivability. They want their high burst ganking build, and they want it to be even more survivable than a well-rounded or even a tank build. They actually want to be able to do massive burst and then completely disengage and get away without anyone being able to fight them back. There is nothing competitive about that kind of gameplay, and there is certainly no sportsmanship involved.

I have to disagree.
Sorc has streak and dark deal - which is over the top OP, and hurricane/boundless storm that buffs resistance, good AOE
DK has igneous shield (which gives back stam and provides a damage shield), a buff to resistance, and Major Mending.
Templar can cleanse, have a buff to resistance, and Major Mending.

Nightblade has .... umm, ummm, ummm Mirage. That's it. Mirage. Not sure if there's any stamblade using Mirage instead of Shuffle. There's just no way to build towards survivability for a nightblade, unless you run Troll King. But Troll King itself is cancerous.

Oh, and rolling tanks has nothing to do with "sick of being one-shout out of the blue from a stamblade".
People will still zerg no matter what. It has nothing to do with ganking.
People counter-siege from keep wall because if they go down they will get zerged, it has nothing to do with stamblades.
Nothing sportmanship in PvP openworld. Is zerging sportmanship? Nah. People still do it.

There are certain combinations of setups that make ganking toxic. Ganking itself is fine. There are counterplays to ganking if the setup is not toxic: block or dodge their Incap, slot Mageslight, use your situational awareness (explained above).

NB have many sources of mitigation.

For one, nb have the major armor buffs as a passive freeing up a skill slot other classes can't do.

Cloak for one. Even if you don't use it for invisibility to reset a fight, reposition, suppress a dot etc, the morph that gives 8% damage reduction is huge. As a frame of reference, you mitigate 1% of damage with roughly 650-700 from armor resistances. So 8% reduction is equivaliant to about 5600 armor resist. Plus it also procs the major armor mitigation. So just from cloak you can mitigate roughly %15 of damage before factoring in the other perks you get from cloak.

There is also fear which procs the armor buffs and mitigates damage by 15%. When being hit by multiple people it benefits are even better. Combine cloak and fear and you have about 30% mitigation which is perfect to go defensive with.

As you mentioned we have a class dodge chance which other classes don't have. Shuffle is not the best choice for a mag build typically, so having a mag one is great. I use it on my stam blade because I like the mag dump and speed while in stealth. Plus the passives are nice.

There is also shades with 15% mitigation and teleworking out of danger. Healing received for slotting siphoning abilities. Sap essence. Swallow soul. Healing ult. Mitigation ult. Refreshing path. Not to mention the mobility nb have.

The tools are there. You just need to utilize them better. Mitigation does not come as easy as other classes, but that does not mean they are non existent. In fact, I enjoy that nb can be more challenging to play from a mitigation standpoint.

Let's also not forget the other sources of mitigation out there in skill lines to all. Not everything has to be tucked away into a nice little toolkit for each class. What would be the point of weapons then.

lackey was talking about stamblade, so I was also talking about stamblade. A aagblade can be built as a sap tank, I have one myself, so of course survivalbility is good.

Major armor buff NB has is nothing compared to other classes.

Sorc has streak and dark deal - which is over the top OP, and hurricane/boundless storm that buffs resistance, good AOE
DK has igneous shield (which gives back stam and provides a damage shield), a buff to resistance, and Major Mending.
Templar can cleanse, have a buff to resistance, and Major Mending.

A part from resistance buff that everyone else has, stamblade only has Mirage, while everyone else has Shuffle. For a stamblade, cloak is the only way. And it doesn't work most of the time.

P/S: I also use Mirage on my stamblade but most higher skilled players choose shuffle because it removes snares. Break free, then cast Shuffle right away to remove snares.

JinMori wrote: »

I said it many times and i will say it again,

Seems ZOS isn't listening, why keep wasting your breath?