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Dual Wield Vs 2H
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danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DannyLV702 wrote: »It comes down to simple math. A 2h is one, count it, one weapon.
Dual wield requires two, count it, two weapons.
And therefore 2h counts as one weapon because it is one weapon, and dual wield counts as two weapons, because they are two weapons.
Any reason we can't wear ten rings then? Can you do the math for me on that one?8 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DannyLV702 wrote: »It comes down to simple math. A 2h is one, count it, one weapon.
Dual wield requires two, count it, two weapons.
And therefore 2h counts as one weapon because it is one weapon, and dual wield counts as two weapons, because they are two weapons.
While I originally though "huh, maybe that's it" after another ten seconds of thinking I realized "but a 2h weapon gives 5200 armor pen, and a one handed gives 2600."1 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭EldritchPenguin wrote: »
This is true in PvE, but in PvP, they are a force to be reckoned with. A HoT is much more useful in PvP, since you might not have a healer with you. Critical Charge->Wrecking Blow/Dizzying Swing will do a massive amount of damage to a target in a very short amount of time, and it even gives you your choice of Empower or a very powerful stun. Then you get an ultimate that can split tanks in two, and an execute that's simply icing on the cake.Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »What two hander needs is better skills. The ones that are there are not conducive to PvE dps. A cast time spammable, a very weak AOE that is also the weapons DoT, a gap closer that is wholy unnecessary for PvE, and execute that ties you to the aforementioned skills and lastly a HoT that is mostly unnecessary and gives a buff that most get from pots. Oh and an ulti that ignores armor rating, something that is almost already done with the penetration meta going on right now.
This is the real problem with two-handed weapons.
I'm a bit against changing up 2H. While it is lackluster in PvE, the tree was built ground up to be a PvP monster. I like it when everything is best at something, but nothing is best at everything.
I suppose what I thought was that i wouldn't have to qualify that I was talking about PvE only, guess not.
Of course two-handed is king in PvP or that is to say burst is king. "Built from the ground for PvP" is non sense. Until dual wielding got some much needed skill changes (IE flurry going from a 1.1 sec channel to .6 sec, blood thirst and blood craze, hell even getting major butality in the skill line which was not there for a long time) and the crazy op vMA weapons, two-handed was considered more viable for PvE DPS. You can go to YouTube right now and find old videos of PvE two-handed users being shown how to weave heavy attacks with wrecking blow( which had both the stun and the empower, before it got nerfed, creating the choice you point out).
The only reason people complain about two-handed needing to be counted as 2 set pieces is PvE. That is were it is lacking and it is 100% case of the skills, not the fact you can't get 5/5/2. This is show by the way it was the go to stam DPS weapon before two-handed was nerfed and duals were buffed.
Now for staffs, I think they both in a good place, resto staff and destro staff(with the latest changes) I see no need for them to be counted as 2 set pieces.Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on February 24, 2017 5:05PM0 -
Lynx7386✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭In a recent interview zos mentioned that they were looking into making 2h, staffs, and bows count as two set items.PS4 / NA
M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank1 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Basically right now according to many:
in PVP bow/2h is stam top damage.
in PVE trails/group content with designated roles etc (and esp mael weapons for the dw) bow/dw is top damage.
that appears to give each weapon a place to shine.
if 2h got boosted and was closer to or on par with Dw by giving it a set bonus or whatever, where would we see DW especially prior to mael dw daggers?
As others have pointed out the nature of the current system means dw can run 5-5-2 pre-maelstrom and 2H have to run 2-4-4-1-1 (clever alch, witchman, lich etc) and so you have more actual in play diversity because the different weapons types actually are different.
it takes 8 tempers to gol a 2h but 16 to gold two dw...
pick any or all of these and realize - how many of them will have to go away *if* ZoS does give you the second set bonus so you all can wear the same sets as each other?
One weapon is better for burst, one is better for dps sustain. its the content demands that push 2h to the waiting line in PVE dps high end group content and puts dw back a step in pve.
its ok for making different choices to have actual different results - really it is.
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Izaki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭People still on about this?@ Izaki #PCEU
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darthsithis✭✭✭It should be stronger maybe, but only count as 1 set piece. Dw just seems to shine in pve and I wish 2h had better skills and weapon/spell power...
Wrecking blow should wind up faster or hit way harder imo. Whirlwind beats reverse slice any day, and the only reason I see ppl use 2h is to build a setup around rally basically.
That gap closer is fun tho hahaMessage me if you want to do trials/dungeons, or need a trading guild! Flawless conqueror magsorc with a bad sense of armor fashion.1 -
mrromeo187✭✭✭i'm kicked from Dungeon because i play with 2 Hand Bow
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darthsithis✭✭✭Yeah that's elitist he was trying to pretend it was a trial where typically no one uses 2h.
But dungeons um go for it lol. Ain't no leaderboards and if u can play u can play haha. Sorry u had to deal with thatMessage me if you want to do trials/dungeons, or need a trading guild! Flawless conqueror magsorc with a bad sense of armor fashion.0 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Simple solution (next to just, making 2h weapons count as two items):
Bucklers: an armored bracer that can be equipped with 2h maces, axes, and swords, providing a small armor increase.
Focus: magical items such as orbs, crystals, soul shards, and spell books held in the offhand with a staff.
Quiver: used with bows to provide additional weapon damage.
This is actually a pretty good idea.0 -
WhoThenNow7✭✭✭DannyLV702 wrote: »It comes down to simple math. A 2h is one, count it, one weapon.
Dual wield requires two, count it, two weapons.
Thanks
And therefore 2h counts as one weapon because it is one weapon, and dual wield counts as two weapons, because they are two weapons.
I love how you're trying to be sarcastically smart about this. Ok so let's play your logic..
If a staff is a two-handed weapon, why does my character only hold it with "one" hand, not "two", but "one".
I'm not trying to add fuel to the fire.. I really am curious as to why a staff is a two handed weapon. Even the heavy attacks only use one hand..
Edited by WhoThenNow7 on February 26, 2017 8:39PM2 -
Khivas_Carrick✭✭✭✭✭Simple solution (next to just, making 2h weapons count as two items):
Bucklers: an armored bracer that can be equipped with 2h maces, axes, and swords, providing a small armor increase.
Focus: magical items such as orbs, crystals, soul shards, and spell books held in the offhand with a staff.
Quiver: used with bows to provide additional weapon damage.
Sorry, but this suggestion actually sounds kinda awesome and should totally be implemented lolBobbity Boop, this game might become poop, but I'll still play because I'm just a pile of goop!0 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Khivas_Carrick wrote: »Simple solution (next to just, making 2h weapons count as two items):
Bucklers: an armored bracer that can be equipped with 2h maces, axes, and swords, providing a small armor increase.
Focus: magical items such as orbs, crystals, soul shards, and spell books held in the offhand with a staff.
Quiver: used with bows to provide additional weapon damage.
Sorry, but this suggestion actually sounds kinda awesome and should totally be implemented lol
I just don't get how people don't understand that it is not the fact that these weapons don't count as two set pieces but the fact they suck as skill lines by themselves. Think about it, would you use two-handers as your main bar if it suddenly had two set pieces? No. Cause the spammable skill still sucks, the AOE skill sucks, the "dot" skill still sucks (which makes sense because it is attached to the AOE skill). The bow too would be no better off, for the spammable is a cast time, just like two handers, it sucks. The destro staff doesn't need any more help, the last patch was great to it, though I would like some work done to it to make ice staff tanking more valuable.
Oh And a BIG asterisk for those of you that need it, ALL OF THIS IS IN PVE.Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on February 27, 2017 9:51AM0 -
deepseamk20b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Make the last passive under 2H to read (along with what's already there) 2H weapons now count as two different slots. Or something. I can't think of the right words lol.Hey everyone! Look! It's a signature!0 -
Rickter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think ZOS is talking about implementing a "Rune Weapon" - basically, you'd have a 2h in one hand like a greatsword or staff, and a "rune" in the other (this would change no aesthetic visuals) and that rune would be crafted and afford 2h weapons two slots for set bonuses.
I think thats a great idea, dont you?RickterESO
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Draconerus✭✭✭This has been discussed before. I actually have a thread here if you want to check it out https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/316998/suggestion-make-2h-items-count-as-2-peices#latestDraconerus
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Blake6332✭✭✭EldritchPenguin wrote: »
It's quite simple: Build diversity.Sandman929 wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »DannyLV702 wrote: »It comes down to simple math. A 2h is one, count it, one weapon.
Dual wield requires two, count it, two weapons.
And therefore 2h counts as one weapon because it is one weapon, and dual wield counts as two weapons, because they are two weapons.
Not that I don't appreciate a thorough explanation of the differences between 1 thing and 2 things, because I do, but this particular game mechanic is unnecessarily limiting when it comes to build diversity. Couldn't these singular 2H weapons somehow contain through some magical means the properties of 2 weapons forged into one? Thus fulfilling the 2 piece requirement while still only being a single piece?
Wasn't there a class in Diablo (barbarian?) that after unlocking a skill, you could carry a 2h weapon in one hand? Is that something that could be incorporated into a passive class skill? Then maybe that class can carry a shield or 1h weapon on the second hand. It might make that class OP, but it's worth a look.
Good to see a post not drifting off topic....
Anyway, if someone at ZOS could explain why 2H must necessarily be penalized at slot for set pieces, I'd love to hear it.
If everyone gets 12 set slots, then absolutely everyone will run 5/5/2. It's bad enough that almost every single build only uses a handful of sets, and the rest get left in the dust. At least with 2H, there's some semblance of a build dilemma, since you have to decide between 5/5/1 or 5/4/2 or 5/3/2/1. If 2H gets an extra set piece, then they're going to run exactly the same builds that DW players use. Not to mention that we'd basically never see anyone using DW in PvP again.
Okay, but if NOT everyone gets 5/5/2, then who really wants to run 2h if they dont have to for their role (IE, healers)?0 -
thankyourat✭✭✭✭✭
✭If 2hand weapons count as 2 set pieces that would be the end of dual wield in PvP, no one would run it. Right now in PvP 2hand weapons are still better than dual wield for both stam and magicka even though you can't really do 5-5-2. Why buff them. This would also hurt PvE by making magicka DPS even higher basically killing stamina even more, because magicka users use 2hand weapons in PvE, and even if 2hand sword was buffed it still wouldn't out perform dual wield in PvE.1 -
DragonBound✭✭✭✭✭thankyourat wrote: »If 2hand weapons count as 2 set pieces that would be the end of dual wield in PvP, no one would run it. Right now in PvP 2hand weapons are still better than dual wield for both stam and magicka even though you can't really do 5-5-2. Why buff them. This would also hurt PvE by making magicka DPS even higher basically killing stamina even more, because magicka users use 2hand weapons in PvE, and even if 2hand sword was buffed it still wouldn't out perform dual wield in PvE.
Well maybe they have plans on changing the weapons some.0 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭EldritchPenguin wrote: »
It's quite simple: Build diversity.Sandman929 wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »DannyLV702 wrote: »It comes down to simple math. A 2h is one, count it, one weapon.
Dual wield requires two, count it, two weapons.
And therefore 2h counts as one weapon because it is one weapon, and dual wield counts as two weapons, because they are two weapons.
Not that I don't appreciate a thorough explanation of the differences between 1 thing and 2 things, because I do, but this particular game mechanic is unnecessarily limiting when it comes to build diversity. Couldn't these singular 2H weapons somehow contain through some magical means the properties of 2 weapons forged into one? Thus fulfilling the 2 piece requirement while still only being a single piece?
Wasn't there a class in Diablo (barbarian?) that after unlocking a skill, you could carry a 2h weapon in one hand? Is that something that could be incorporated into a passive class skill? Then maybe that class can carry a shield or 1h weapon on the second hand. It might make that class OP, but it's worth a look.
Good to see a post not drifting off topic....
Anyway, if someone at ZOS could explain why 2H must necessarily be penalized at slot for set pieces, I'd love to hear it.
If everyone gets 12 set slots, then absolutely everyone will run 5/5/2. It's bad enough that almost every single build only uses a handful of sets, and the rest get left in the dust. At least with 2H, there's some semblance of a build dilemma, since you have to decide between 5/5/1 or 5/4/2 or 5/3/2/1. If 2H gets an extra set piece, then they're going to run exactly the same builds that DW players use. Not to mention that we'd basically never see anyone using DW in PvP again.
Okay, but if NOT everyone gets 5/5/2, then who really wants to run 2h if they dont have to for their role (IE, healers)?
those wanting the other strengths of 2h not related to set piece end bonuses.
those realizing there are a number of good sets which work well with the 2h 11pc model, including clever alchemist, witchman, lich and even perhaps ones like morkuldin.
etc.
its not all about the end-set bonuses.Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
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Hurika✭✭✭✭if 2h counts as 2 pieces I'd expect them to take 2x the amount of resources to make gold and the drop rate of 2h cut in half to compensate for having to get 2 dropped 1h weapons. Otherwise folks with dw have to farm 2x as much.0
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RABIDxWOLVERINE✭✭✭✭Sandman929 wrote: »DannyLV702 wrote: »It comes down to simple math. A 2h is one, count it, one weapon.
Dual wield requires two, count it, two weapons.
And therefore 2h counts as one weapon because it is one weapon, and dual wield counts as two weapons, because they are two weapons.
Not sure how that is relevant. By that logic I have to use 2 hands, count them 2 hands to hold a 2H weapon. A set for each hand.
And there's the magical property that could fulfill the 2H weapon counting as 2 pieces of a set...number of hands needed. One set piece per hand needed.
This is the way I think about it because if you actually look in your inventory the 2H takes up 2 weapon slots because it isn't broken up by 1 or 2 weapons its broken up by main hand and off hand. Therefore the logic seems to say its a set piece per hand slot and if a 2H weapon requires 2 hand slots then it should be worth 2 set pieces.
At the same time I can understand it both ways. Id prefer bow and 2H count as 2 because I use Bow and I like 2H better than dual wield but because of this I'm going to dual-wield because it helps my build more. I do have to agree though this would allow for more build diversity.Rhaegar Gregorson, The Ebonheart Centurion - Imperial Dragonknight
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Strider_Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭thankyourat wrote: »If 2hand weapons count as 2 set pieces that would be the end of dual wield in PvP, no one would run it. Right now in PvP 2hand weapons are still better than dual wield for both stam and magicka even though you can't really do 5-5-2. Why buff them. This would also hurt PvE by making magicka DPS even higher basically killing stamina even more, because magicka users use 2hand weapons in PvE, and even if 2hand sword was buffed it still wouldn't out perform dual wield in PvE.
Incorrect. Magicka users will no longer DW; however avoiding having to use the worst spammable in the game (uppercut) is more than enough of a reason for me to DW on my Stam Sorc, and Stam DK.0 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Strider_Roshin wrote: »thankyourat wrote: »If 2hand weapons count as 2 set pieces that would be the end of dual wield in PvP, no one would run it. Right now in PvP 2hand weapons are still better than dual wield for both stam and magicka even though you can't really do 5-5-2. Why buff them. This would also hurt PvE by making magicka DPS even higher basically killing stamina even more, because magicka users use 2hand weapons in PvE, and even if 2hand sword was buffed it still wouldn't out perform dual wield in PvE.
Incorrect. Magicka users will no longer DW; however avoiding having to use the worst spammable in the game (uppercut) is more than enough of a reason for me to DW on my Stam Sorc, and Stam DK.
This is 100% the reason that two hander sucks, NOT the fact you can't have 5/5/2, the skills are not conducive to sustained DPS, and you NEED that in PvE and anything else will just just be second class in most peoples eyes.1 -
ForsakenSin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sandman929 wrote: »I'm sure it's been asked before @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_ANYONE_ELSE, but is there a reason 2H weapons can't count for 2 pieces of a set? If this has been answered elsewhere, could someone please direct me to the explanation?
Having 11 "pieces" with a 2H weapon while Dual Wielding provides 12 seems unnecessarily limiting in build options.
Allot of people agree with that 2hand should be counted as two set items
but until then to answer your question
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ookami007✭✭✭✭✭
✭It would be different if the two handed weapons gave some substantial bonus over DW, but they really don't. Not enough to warrant losing a set piece. This is a flaw in the game design and should be corrected.1 -
WarpigFunk✭✭✭Sandman929 wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »DannyLV702 wrote: »It comes down to simple math. A 2h is one, count it, one weapon.
Dual wield requires two, count it, two weapons.
And therefore 2h counts as one weapon because it is one weapon, and dual wield counts as two weapons, because they are two weapons.
Not that I don't appreciate a thorough explanation of the differences between 1 thing and 2 things, because I do, but this particular game mechanic is unnecessarily limiting when it comes to build diversity. Couldn't these singular 2H weapons somehow contain through some magical means the properties of 2 weapons forged into one? Thus fulfilling the 2 piece requirement while still only being a single piece?
Wasn't there a class in Diablo (barbarian?) that after unlocking a skill, you could carry a 2h weapon in one hand? Is that something that could be incorporated into a passive class skill? Then maybe that class can carry a shield or 1h weapon on the second hand. It might make that class OP, but it's worth a look.
Good to see a post not drifting off topic....
Anyway, if someone at ZOS could explain why 2H must necessarily be penalized at slot for set pieces, I'd love to hear it.
Because you get bonuses for using a 2 hander to compensate for the lack of an extra set slot (8% damage with flamestaff for example) ... also when the game released there were no 5 pc bonuses iirc. Weren't there only 3 pc bonuses?
Not saying that justifies it, but those are reasons...
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STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It would be different if the two handed weapons gave some substantial bonus over DW, but they really don't. Not enough to warrant losing a set piece. This is a flaw in the game design and should be corrected.
On what do you base the claim that there aren't sufficient offsets.
Right now common wisdom says for
PVP/burst needs 2h/bow is best Stan smh producer
For PVE-GROUP/sustain: DW/bow is best Stan smh producer.
Staves just gotsignificant uptic and already show strong playtime and results in trials.
That shows a balance, nothing best everywhere (except bow in both cases) everything best everywhere.
Also every single moment of PS play an llive play analysis and testing that went intoeery inglebalance chug ever made in the games couple years span... Every one... Was done with set bonus counts figured into that play.
So that's where I say "looks good, no evidence a global change is needed. "
So what's your evidence that bow and staves and 2h need a flat out boost?
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Strider_Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It would be different if the two handed weapons gave some substantial bonus over DW, but they really don't. Not enough to warrant losing a set piece. This is a flaw in the game design and should be corrected.
On what do you base the claim that there aren't sufficient offsets.
Right now common wisdom says for
PVP/burst needs 2h/bow is best Stan smh producer
For PVE-GROUP/sustain: DW/bow is best Stan smh producer.
Staves just gotsignificant uptic and already show strong playtime and results in trials.
That shows a balance, nothing best everywhere (except bow in both cases) everything best everywhere.
Also every single moment of PS play an llive play analysis and testing that went intoeery inglebalance chug ever made in the games couple years span... Every one... Was done with set bonus counts figured into that play.
So that's where I say "looks good, no evidence a global change is needed. "
So what's your evidence that bow and staves and 2h need a flat out boost?
2H either needs to count as a 2 piece or it needs to provide more raw damage. The fact that you say that the 2H's place is in PvP because it provides "burst" has just informed every experienced PvP player that you're clueless as to how the 2H performs in PvP.
Here's a simple math problem for you:
What's 15,000 X 0 = ?
The answer to the question will tell you how much "burst" the 2H gives you in PvP.
No, the 2H is garbage in every aspect of this game when compared to DW. The only two classes that should use the 2H are Nightblades, and Templars. The reason for this is because they're the only two classes that don't have a viable source of major brutality.
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Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Strider_Roshin wrote: »It would be different if the two handed weapons gave some substantial bonus over DW, but they really don't. Not enough to warrant losing a set piece. This is a flaw in the game design and should be corrected.
On what do you base the claim that there aren't sufficient offsets.
Right now common wisdom says for
PVP/burst needs 2h/bow is best Stan smh producer
For PVE-GROUP/sustain: DW/bow is best Stan smh producer.
Staves just gotsignificant uptic and already show strong playtime and results in trials.
That shows a balance, nothing best everywhere (except bow in both cases) everything best everywhere.
Also every single moment of PS play an llive play analysis and testing that went intoeery inglebalance chug ever made in the games couple years span... Every one... Was done with set bonus counts figured into that play.
So that's where I say "looks good, no evidence a global change is needed. "
So what's your evidence that bow and staves and 2h need a flat out boost?
2H either needs to count as a 2 piece or it needs to provide more raw damage. The fact that you say that the 2H's place is in PvP because it provides "burst" has just informed every experienced PvP player that you're clueless as to how the 2H performs in PvP.
Here's a simple math problem for you:
What's 15,000 X 0 = ?
The answer to the question will tell you how much "burst" the 2H gives you in PvP.
No, the 2H is garbage in every aspect of this game when compared to DW. The only two classes that should use the 2H are Nightblades, and Templars. The reason for this is because they're the only two classes that don't have a viable source of major brutality.
I would disagree with this, nbs and temps are the only ones with a class spammable that is better then dizzying swing. Again, it comes down to the skills and the damage they do, NOT the fact that you can't have 5/5/2. Two hander will suck regardless of the two set pieces.
Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on March 4, 2017 3:01AM1