Block Casting

SanderBuraas · March 2017

This was stated in the Welcome to 2017 article: "We will be addressing this in 2017 – from Champion System performance to class/armor balance to client/server performance in large battles." One change that needs to happen, for the sake of balance, is to restrict block casting. I've written about this before, though the entire thread is not relevant, so I will quote a part of it:

Smepic wrote: »

The fact that you are able to 'toggle' block, which grants you cc immunity and highly reduced damage taken, and still be able to deal damage is absurd. This should not be possible. In what other games are you able to block and still perform spells? There is a reason this is not possible in most games.

Block is not a toggle. We should not be able to hold block and still be able to use spells. Usage of skills while you hold block should remove the block status for the duration of the ability animation.

Or simply gray out skills when you block, though this could cause latency issues. Heavy armour builds with a lot of sustain and damage are very strong. One of the reasons why is block casting, which is why I propose the change. There are a lot of other balance changes needed – like the removal of Evasion – but those can be discussed in other threads.

Edit: The thread is obviously not about animation cancelling. My point is that blocking should be about compromise and not be a mitigation toggle.

Sneaky-Snurr · March 2017

@Smepic
Block casting is a byproduct of Animation Cancelling (AC).
I've started and participated in various threads in the past discussing about it with a possible solution that I came out with but alas, those discussions ended to be just discussions at the end of the day with no reaction from ZoS.
I can find my responses to the threads but it's been a while back and digging it out again is wasting time knowing that you may be ramming into an invincible wall with no possibility to crack it talking about this.

Best to just play the game and leave the AC debate between the Devs.

Royaji · March 2017

And the weekly AC thread is here. You are a bit off schedule though. We are still waiting for the vMA RNG thread here...

g0dlik3buthumbl3 · March 2017

Royaji wrote: »

And the weekly AC thread is here. You are a bit off schedule though. We are still waiting for the vMA RNG thread here...

Lol Sad, but true.

Malmai · March 2017

Royaji wrote: »

And the weekly AC thread is here. You are a bit off schedule though. We are still waiting for the vMA RNG thread here...

And you know why ? Because Zenimax ignores people and you will see this threads every week, day, year till Zenimax decides to change some stupid stuff which is probably never...

Solariken · March 2017

They don't need to restrict block-casting, they just need to discourage it with an intelligent mechanical change. Blocking should reduce weapon and spell damage by 50%. That's a fair trade for reducing incoming damage by 50% and preventing CC don't you think?

This way block-casting is still possible but is not an effective way to play.

Royaji · March 2017

Malmai wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

And the weekly AC thread is here. You are a bit off schedule though. We are still waiting for the vMA RNG thread here...

And you know why ? Because Zenimax ignores people and you will see this threads every week, day, year till Zenimax decides to change some stupid stuff which is probably never...

They have already adressed the issue. AC is not an exploit. It's hard coded into the fighting system and dealing with it will take more resources than ZOS is willing to allocate. Why can't you guys just admit that and stop whining? Deal with it or leave the game. There is no need to post the same thread on the forum once a week.

edited because of typos

heyjrey · March 2017

I don't think they should take away the ability to block-cast, as I block-cast all the time when I'm tanking in PvE. I mean there's already downsides to block-casting like paused stam regen. And whenever you swap bars, your block drops anyways (which is why you need to time your bar swaps correctly whilst tanking)

I mean honestly, block-casting is not really that big a deal—if we're talking PvP situations, just fear them, they'll drop block real quick lol.

SanderBuraas · March 2017

Royaji wrote: »

And the weekly AC thread is here. You are a bit off schedule though. We are still waiting for the vMA RNG thread here...

@Royaji

My thread has nothing to do with animation cancelling, but holding block and using abilities – as many builds do in PvP.

heyjrey wrote: »

I don't think they should take away the ability to block-cast, as I block-cast all the time when I'm tanking in PvE. I mean there's already downsides to block-casting like paused stam regen. And whenever you swap bars, your block drops anyways (which is why you need to time your bar swaps correctly whilst tanking)

I mean honestly, block-casting is not really that big a deal—if we're talking PvP situations, just fear them, they'll drop block real quick lol.

@heyjrey

They will drop the block for a few milliseconds before they CC break and continue to hold block.

Lynx7386 · March 2017

Here's another perfect example of people crying for a change because of pvp that would completely destroy pve.

heyjrey · March 2017

Smepic wrote: »

heyjrey wrote: »

I don't think they should take away the ability to block-cast, as I block-cast all the time when I'm tanking in PvE. I mean there's already downsides to block-casting like paused stam regen. And whenever you swap bars, your block drops anyways (which is why you need to time your bar swaps correctly whilst tanking)

I mean honestly, block-casting is not really that big a deal—if we're talking PvP situations, just fear them, they'll drop block real quick lol.

@heyjrey

They will drop the block for a few milliseconds before they CC break and continue to hold block.

Well I guess I see how that can be annoying, but by block-casting, they're really just hurting themselves because you can't regenerate the resources you're using while blocking (assuming they're stamina abilities) Eventually they're going to screw themselves over because if you force them to break their stamina it's just gonna end up with them dead lol. Idk, I think it's possible to work around the block-casters.

SanderBuraas · March 2017

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Here's another perfect example of people crying for a change because of pvp that would completely destroy pve.

@Lynx7386

Completely destroy PvE? Do elaborate. While you're at it, explain how my thread is "crying".

IronCrystal · March 2017

Smepic wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Here's another perfect example of people crying for a change because of pvp that would completely destroy pve.

@Lynx7386

Completely destroy PvE? Do elaborate. While you're at it, explain how my thread is "crying".

It's pretty much necessary to block cancel in trials such as the Warrior and Foundation Atronach and first boss in vMoL.

Mitigating damage while dealing it/healing is pretty necessary. You sacrifice all stam recovery though for it.

Lynx7386 · March 2017

Smepic wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Here's another perfect example of people crying for a change because of pvp that would completely destroy pve.

@Lynx7386

Completely destroy PvE? Do elaborate. While you're at it, explain how my thread is "crying".

Block casting is an absolute necessity for endgame tanking. There are so many attacks and mechanics that will one shot even a high health/mitigation tank if he isn't constantly blocking, and many builds - namely dragon knight and nightblade tanks - rely on being able to cast while blocking in order to keep their resource mechanics functioning. Imagine if your tank had to risk dropping his shield every 8 seconds to taunt. Imagine a tank that cannot provide war horn or buffs/debuff while tanking because he can't use anything while blocking. It'd be a disaster.

Your post constitutes crying because, rather than use what's in the game already to solve your problems (fear, stamina/magicka drain poisons, etc), you come here expecting the developers to hand you a solution at everyone else's detriment.

Qbiken · March 2017

Royaji wrote: »

And the weekly AC thread is here. You are a bit off schedule though. We are still waiting for the vMA RNG thread here...

Sometimes I miss the nerf RD threads

SanderBuraas · March 2017

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Here's another perfect example of people crying for a change because of pvp that would completely destroy pve.

@Lynx7386

Completely destroy PvE? Do elaborate. While you're at it, explain how my thread is "crying".

Block casting is an absolute necessity for endgame tanking. There are so many attacks and mechanics that will one shot even a high health/mitigation tank if he isn't constantly blocking, and many builds - namely dragon knight and nightblade tanks - rely on being able to cast while blocking in order to keep their resource mechanics functioning. Imagine if your tank had to risk dropping his shield every 8 seconds to taunt. Imagine a tank that cannot provide war horn or buffs/debuff while tanking because he can't use anything while blocking. It'd be a disaster.

Your post constitutes crying because, rather than use what's in the game already to solve your problems (fear, stamina/magicka drain poisons, etc), you come here expecting the developers to hand you a solution at everyone else's detriment.

@Lynx7386

You can drop block for a few milliseconds to use a skill, for then to block again. It would even be an animation cancel, which is not what I'm asking to get rid of.

Crying is merely complaining. In my thread, I first introduce the problem, explain why it is one, and then suggest solutions.

Asgari · March 2017

If you remove block casting then light armor needs a serious buff to armor. Some classes simply can't play without using block casting for survival.

I've never been like omg I can't kill him because of block it just delays their eventual death.

IcyDeadPeople · March 2017

If block casting were removed, either immovable skill/potion needs to be longer duration, or any stam build will easily wreck most players with crit rush, dizzying swing, dawbreaker, reverse slice.

There are a lot of counters to block: just burn down the target's stamina with jabs, rapid strikes etc, or fear them, invigorating drain, fossilize, stamina cost increase poisons etc.

However, block casting or immovable are the only options available for a lot of builds to counter dizzying swing/dawnbreaker.

Lynx7386 · March 2017

Smepic wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Here's another perfect example of people crying for a change because of pvp that would completely destroy pve.

@Lynx7386

Completely destroy PvE? Do elaborate. While you're at it, explain how my thread is "crying".

Block casting is an absolute necessity for endgame tanking. There are so many attacks and mechanics that will one shot even a high health/mitigation tank if he isn't constantly blocking, and many builds - namely dragon knight and nightblade tanks - rely on being able to cast while blocking in order to keep their resource mechanics functioning. Imagine if your tank had to risk dropping his shield every 8 seconds to taunt. Imagine a tank that cannot provide war horn or buffs/debuff while tanking because he can't use anything while blocking. It'd be a disaster.

Your post constitutes crying because, rather than use what's in the game already to solve your problems (fear, stamina/magicka drain poisons, etc), you come here expecting the developers to hand you a solution at everyone else's detriment.

@Lynx7386

You can drop block for a few milliseconds to use a skill, for then to block again. It would even be an animation cancel, which is not what I'm asking to get rid of.

Crying is merely complaining. In my thread, I first introduce the problem, explain why it is one, and then suggest solutions.

You've never played a tank here, have you?

Qbiken · March 2017

I´m against all forms of nerfs that will affect animation canceling (which somewhat includes blockcasting). This is not a crythread (as OP actually presents his/her view of the problem in a decent way), but I don´t see how blockcanceling is a problem? Sure for PvP it can cause some lag, but there´s other reasons that has a stronger impact on the lag than block-canceling (not implying that it doesn´t affect it, but it´s a minor reason). And removing/punish block-canceling would IMO do more bad than good, since it is at this point (together with AC) a core mechanic to the game. Removing it without offering something better (besides POTENTIALLY less lag) will never give a good outcome.

SanderBuraas · March 2017

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

If you remove block casting then light armor needs a serious buff to armor. Some classes simply can't play without using block casting for survival.

I've never been like omg I can't kill him because of block it just delays their eventual death.

@Princess_Asgari

You haven't fought a Dragonknight that holds block, reflects, and regains stamina with Constitution, Helping Hands, Battle Roar and tri-pots while block casting?

Junipus · March 2017

Smepic wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Here's another perfect example of people crying for a change because of pvp that would completely destroy pve.

@Lynx7386

Completely destroy PvE? Do elaborate. While you're at it, explain how my thread is "crying".

Block casting is an absolute necessity for endgame tanking. There are so many attacks and mechanics that will one shot even a high health/mitigation tank if he isn't constantly blocking, and many builds - namely dragon knight and nightblade tanks - rely on being able to cast while blocking in order to keep their resource mechanics functioning. Imagine if your tank had to risk dropping his shield every 8 seconds to taunt. Imagine a tank that cannot provide war horn or buffs/debuff while tanking because he can't use anything while blocking. It'd be a disaster.

Your post constitutes crying because, rather than use what's in the game already to solve your problems (fear, stamina/magicka drain poisons, etc), you come here expecting the developers to hand you a solution at everyone else's detriment.

@Lynx7386

You can drop block for a few milliseconds to use a skill, for then to block again. It would even be an animation cancel, which is not what I'm asking to get rid of.

Crying is merely complaining. In my thread, I first introduce the problem, explain why it is one, and then suggest solutions.

So basically you'd be holding block, then it'd drop block for a split second while you did the animation of whatever ability it was, then it'd put you back into blocking again? Or would it involve having to release the block button and then do the ability?

The former is basically how it works now, so this thread is pointless. The latter would destroy trial tanking in this game and make absolutely no difference to PvP, thereby making this thread pointless.

Also it seems to be very much a "you" problem. Not that that's a bad thing, but given there's solutions already available it'd be unrealistic for ZOS to change their entire approach to block casting just because one person didn't like or care about the solutions available.

TARAFRAKA · March 2017

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Here's another perfect example of people crying for a change because of pvp that would completely destroy pve.

@Lynx7386

Completely destroy PvE? Do elaborate. While you're at it, explain how my thread is "crying".

Block casting is an absolute necessity for endgame tanking. There are so many attacks and mechanics that will one shot even a high health/mitigation tank if he isn't constantly blocking, and many builds - namely dragon knight and nightblade tanks - rely on being able to cast while blocking in order to keep their resource mechanics functioning. Imagine if your tank had to risk dropping his shield every 8 seconds to taunt. Imagine a tank that cannot provide war horn or buffs/debuff while tanking because he can't use anything while blocking. It'd be a disaster.

Your post constitutes crying because, rather than use what's in the game already to solve your problems (fear, stamina/magicka drain poisons, etc), you come here expecting the developers to hand you a solution at everyone else's detriment.

@Lynx7386

You can drop block for a few milliseconds to use a skill, for then to block again. It would even be an animation cancel, which is not what I'm asking to get rid of.

Crying is merely complaining. In my thread, I first introduce the problem, explain why it is one, and then suggest solutions.

You've never played a tank here, have you?

Or a healer in any hardmode trial clearly.
Block casting is love. Block casting is life.

TARAFRAKA · March 2017

If i dont block cast 3 healing springs for the tank on the warrior or rakkhat DEATH ABSOLUTE INSTADEATH

Junipus · March 2017

Smepic wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

If you remove block casting then light armor needs a serious buff to armor. Some classes simply can't play without using block casting for survival.

I've never been like omg I can't kill him because of block it just delays their eventual death.

@Princess_Asgari

You haven't fought a Dragonknight that holds block, reflects, and regains stamina with Constitution, Helping Hands, Battle Roar and tri-pots while block casting?

I used to eat them for breakfast on my stamblade. Now I simply ignore them and focus on the squishier targets, especially if they're acting as support.

Take away a tank's wheels and it's just an impotent boat.

alexkdd99 · March 2017

I use it as well, but anyone who thinks it's not stupid needs to really look at what's happening. You should not be able to block damage while attacking. The guy further up the thread posted a great fix for it as well so as to not screw tanks up. Lower spell/ weapon power by 50% while blocking. That seems like the best solution over all.

Anyone saying this was a cry thread just didn't read it.

You should not be able to block and cast spells/ attack. But if they are adamant on keeping it then they should lower the effectiveness of your attack while blocking.

Dark_Aether · March 2017

Malmai wrote: »

Because Zenimax ignores people and you will see this threads every week, day, year till Zenimax decides to change some stupid stuff which is probably never...

You are being ignored for a reason. What you are bringing up as "issues" are just your opinion, things you dislike about the design; but they are part of the design. Some people like them, some don't and ZOS has no intention of changing them.

Koensol · March 2017

Malmai wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

And the weekly AC thread is here. You are a bit off schedule though. We are still waiting for the vMA RNG thread here...

And you know why ? Because Zenimax ignores people and you will see this threads every week, day, year till Zenimax decides to change some stupid stuff which is probably never...

If you honestly think animation canceling is bad and stupid to have in an interactive combat system, then you haven't thought this through. This is not WoW. In this game you have to actually react to your opponent in real time. Nothing would be as frustration as not being able to block your opponents attack when you are in the middle of your own animation. Or being punished for playing a class with slower animations. Animation canceling is necesary in combat systems such as this. I'm sorry, if you cannot comprehend this logic, I don't know what to say.

Draxys · March 2017

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Here's another perfect example of people crying for a change because of pvp that would completely destroy pve.

Please don't assume these people speak for all of the player base that pvps. I would venture to guess that most pvpers, when they think about the implications of these changes, would not want them.

Let's hope the few noise makers don't get their way, although zenimax has a bad track record of paying attention to them.

PlaceboSoul · March 2017

I truly wish ZOS would pay more attention to these issues, but, frankly they won't. If it takes time, money or both, ZOS won't fix it. Period. They are your typical corporation of avarice, sadly with the rights to a franchise I've loved for decades.

My personal opinion, anything that isn't "realistic" (yes, yes, I know this is a fantasy game with magic, you know what I mean) should be fixed. Block casting in many ways is the same thing or at least similar to AC. I personally hate both. I can AC, and I've gotten fairly good at it in rotations, but I don't like it. Sadly in pvp especially, if you want to not only be competitive, but even just survive pvp, you have to AC.

The problem I have is mostly one of immersion, which for me is big in any fantasy game, I like to be immersed into the world and my character. AC pretty much immediately kills immersion. Watching my character stutter through animations and cast things without the animation playing through, it doesn't look or feel right. The majority of other games out there, you start a move, you are locked into the animation, which actually is a good thing, it forces you to plan your moves and react to enemies. With AC, you can just rotation spam.

I can't in any way see that AC was an intended thing in this game, so why hasn't it been fixed? Well, back to my first point. ZOS is a greedy and selfish corporation, with avaricious investors. Time and money are the new gods of tamriel, and the real world.

So, while I don't like AC or block casting, they won't change while ZOS is helming the ship we are all on.

DannyLV702 · March 2017

You are being attacked by pve'ers who have no idea how broken block casting is in pvp. Rip us. I completely agree. Block casting is beyond broken and I've been wanting to make a thread about it. Problem is, i knew the pve'ers would attack because they want to be able to block and use abilities at the same time. Gg