Trait research times need to be toned down

Remag_Div · February 2017

What is the community consensus on this?

Now that I'm starting to get to the point where I need only 1 or 2 more traits to research per item the time it takes to research these is way too high IMO, even with Rank 4 in every craft (research time reduced by 25%, capped at 30 days, research 3 traits simultaneously).

To research all 9 traits for one item, it takes 88 real life days. There are 34 items total (14 blacksmith, 14 clothing, 6 woodworking). So let's say you maximize the time and research 3 items at once for each craft:

3 blacksmith, 3 clothing, 3 woodworking - 88 days
3 blacksmith, 3 clothing, 3 woodworking - 88 days (woodworking done)
3 blacksmith, 3 clothing - 88 days
3 blacksmith, 3 clothing - 88 days
2 blacksmith, 2 clothing - 88 days (blacksmith and clothing done)

TOTAL:
440 days / 10,560 hours / 1.2 years

I understand being a 9 trait research should take some time and effort, but this is a little extreme. There's not even effort involved. Just click to research then wait. The only saving grace is that research times continue to go down even when not logged in. Perhaps a simple way to reduce times is to add more ranks to the Metallurgy, Stitching, and Carpentry passives beyond Rank 4 to continue reducing research times up to 50% max instead of just 25%. In this way you have to invest even more skill points into each crafting tree to benefit from this.

Do you think research times should be reduced? By how much? Should the trait research system even be totally overhauled?

Unsent.Soul · February 2017

@PelinalWhitestrake you know what needs to be done.

Voxicity · February 2017

No

Yeah not gonna happen or all of us who researched them the long way WILL revolt

starkerealm · February 2017

No

It takes somewhere around half a year to complete your research. Which, if this was a single player game, I'd agree, that's excessive... but it's not. ESO is an MMO, you're expected to be playing this (either intermittently or continuously) for much longer than you would with a game like Skyrim.

Artemiisia · February 2017

No

Hell no, its called Master Crafter for something, its not meant to be easy, and never meant to be something you have on more hen one char.

Now with the master writs, this finally means that the people like me, that has spend that time researching everything, finally gets what we deserve, and small rng chance at getting something more.

KimberlyannKitsuragi · February 2017

Yes

Prof_Bawbag · February 2017

KaiVox22 wrote: »

Yeah not gonna happen or all of us who researched them the long way WILL revolt

Things change. Just because I had to do something doesn't mean I would expect others have to do the long wait.

After all, my grandfather used to get up at 4am to work down a mine shaft and not return home until around 8pm. Doesn't mean we all have to do the same *** to earn the same wage. I've no axe to grind as I'm approaching 8 traits on all my crafting other than the woodworking which will all be 9 trait in 7 days.

tdannay_ESO · February 2017

Yes

Artemiisia wrote: »

Hell no, its called Master Crafter for something, its not meant to be easy, and never meant to be something you have on more hen one char.

Now with the master writs, this finally means that the people like me, that has spend that time researching everything, finally gets what we deserve, and small rng chance at getting something more.

I think the OP would be thrilled if it wasn't "easy" but the problem here is that it's extremely easy and nevertheless it takes an artificially long amount of time to complete. A "Master" crafter should actually have to do something to research the traits rather than just waiting. Otherwise completion is not a sign of mastery so much as it is a sign that you logged in several times over a period of many months. Given the original pay structure of the game, forcing a player to spend several months to complete a simple task would have seemed quite profitable. Now, however, there may be better ways that are worth exploring.

starkerealm · February 2017

No

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

KaiVox22 wrote: »

Yeah not gonna happen or all of us who researched them the long way WILL revolt

Things change. Just because I had to do something doesn't mean I would expect others have to do the long wait.

After all, my grandfather used to get up at 4am to work down a mine shaft and not return home until around 8pm. Doesn't mean we all have to do the same *** to earn the same wage. I've no axe to grind as I'm approaching 8 traits on all my crafting other than the woodworking which will all be 9 trait in 7 days.

Well, if you get black lung from research, please be sure to let us know. Alternately, you can do your research on a character, and then, you know, do anything else you want on that character while the research ticks. You can research 9 items simultaneously, which, if you keep track of your research progress, means you can knock it out fairly quickly... okay, yeah, it takes about six or seven months. But, that doesn't mean you can't run content on that character, or you know, play the game. It just means you can't instantly make Twice Born Star sets. (And, really, if you're crafting, most of the good stuff is around 6 traits, so you can get there in under a month, if you know what you want.)

MarkusLiberty · February 2017

No

I enjoy the long term aspects of trait research, gives me something relatively low-effort to work on over an extended period of time

Artemiisia · February 2017

No

tdannay_ESO wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

Hell no, its called Master Crafter for something, its not meant to be easy, and never meant to be something you have on more hen one char.

Now with the master writs, this finally means that the people like me, that has spend that time researching everything, finally gets what we deserve, and small rng chance at getting something more.

I think the OP would be thrilled if it wasn't "easy" but the problem here is that it's extremely easy and nevertheless it takes an artificially long amount of time to complete. A "Master" crafter should actually have to do something to research the traits rather than just waiting. Otherwise completion is not a sign of mastery so much as it is a sign that you logged in several times over a period of many months. Given the original pay structure of the game, forcing a player to spend several months to complete a simple task would have seemed quite profitable. Now, however, there may be better ways that are worth exploring.

The thing is, being able to craft 9 trait sets as a select few, can and is very profitable, so for me, yes this should take long to get.

There is also more to being a master crafter then that

Learn all traits
Learn all motifs styles
Learn all provisioner recipes
Learn all housing recipes

and the only reason this is taken up now, is due to master writs

Prof_Bawbag · February 2017

starkerealm wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

KaiVox22 wrote: »

Yeah not gonna happen or all of us who researched them the long way WILL revolt

Things change. Just because I had to do something doesn't mean I would expect others have to do the long wait.

After all, my grandfather used to get up at 4am to work down a mine shaft and not return home until around 8pm. Doesn't mean we all have to do the same *** to earn the same wage. I've no axe to grind as I'm approaching 8 traits on all my crafting other than the woodworking which will all be 9 trait in 7 days.

Well, if you get black lung from research, please be sure to let us know. Alternately, you can do your research on a character, and then, you know, do anything else you want on that character while the research ticks. You can research 9 items simultaneously, which, if you keep track of your research progress, means you can knock it out fairly quickly... okay, yeah, it takes about six or seven months. But, that doesn't mean you can't run content on that character, or you know, play the game. It just means you can't instantly make Twice Born Star sets. (And, really, if you're crafting, most of the good stuff is around 6 traits, so you can get there in under a month, if you know what you want.)

Erm, eh ... way to take it to the extreme. I never once insinuated anyone should be able to make TBS instantly. Nor has anyone within this thread for that matter. A small increase that requires extra skill points would be better. I suppose that's me now wanting TBS in 2 days now, though, huh?

That's the problem with most people who dislike change. They see everything as a case of either or. No in-between. Because waiting over a year is deemed too long, we must want it all INSTANTLY!!!!

Guambodian · February 2017

No

No way. Everybody wants things to be easier all the time. Some things are just worth the effort. For the longest time people who took the time and spent the gold to complete research on traits, motifs, etc, were undervalued. If everyone else wants what current master crafters have, everyone needs to put in the same time and work. ZOS, please no shortcuts for impatient newer players.

UrQuan · February 2017

The way you have it laid is not the most efficient way to research all of the traits.

The way you have it listed above, for both blacksmithing and clothing you've got 1 research slot sitting idle for a full 88 days. If you do it properly, it's only when you're down to researching your last two traits for a craft that you'll have a research slot idle.

That means that you don't research every trait for 3 items, then move on to research every trait for the next 3 items. Instead you research the first trait for 3 items, then the first trait for the next 3 items, and so on. You'll end up with staggered research times for some of your research slots, and the only time any slot will be idle is when you're down to researching your last 2 traits.

Also, you're not taking into account ESO plus, which makes a significant difference in the total amount of time. Taking 27 days to research the 9th trait on an item rather than 30 days is a big deal, even without taking into account all of the time savings along the way to getting to the 9th trait.

Plus, let's be honest. You can power-level everything else for crafting. The fact that it takes a long time to become a 9-trait crafter is the only thing stopping someone who's never crafted before from overnight becoming just as good at crafting as someone who's been crafting since launch.

NewBlacksmurf · February 2017

Yes

Yes it does.
To those saying not or that you had to do it the long way......
Stop

That's dumb

Why would you want ppl to not have opportunities to participate in buying and selling or progressing

Ideally if they wanted to make the ESO plus benefit worth a dang....it should reduce all to 8 24 hours each

Outside of ESO Plus, it never should exceed 5 days

starkerealm · February 2017

No

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Erm, eh ... way to take it to the extreme.

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

After all, my grandfather used to get up at 4am to work down a mine shaft and not return home until around 8pm. Doesn't mean we all have to do the same *** to earn the same wage.

Not much more extreme than that. We're talking about a videogame, not, literally, working in a coalmine.

There's a huge jump between 16 hour days, black lung, and an eventual, painful, death, and, you know, playing a videogame for fun. You could almost say there's an "extreme" difference between these things.

So, it takes a few months to get what you want? So what? That's ultimately going right into the area of, "I want everything and I want it now." Yes, I know, you didn't intend for it to be quite that binary, but, I mean, really, if ESO reminds you of a coalmine... maybe you need to find a less stressful hobby.

Soella · February 2017

No

If you are not planning to play this game for couple years, there is no point in doing all researching, there are always a lot of crafters around.

And research feels as quite less tiresome than horse feeding...

starkerealm · February 2017

No

UrQuan wrote: »

The way you have it laid is not the most efficient way to research all of the traits.

The way you have it listed above, for both blacksmithing and clothing you've got 1 research slot sitting idle for a full 88 days. If you do it properly, it's only when you're down to researching your last two traits for a craft that you'll have a research slot idle.

That means that you don't research every trait for 3 items, then move on to research every trait for the next 3 items. Instead you research the first trait for 3 items, then the first trait for the next 3 items, and so on. You'll end up with staggered research times for some of your research slots, and the only time any slot will be idle is when you're down to researching your last 2 traits.

Also, you're not taking into account ESO plus, which makes a significant difference in the total amount of time. Taking 27 days to research the 9th trait on an item rather than 30 days is a big deal, even without taking into account all of the time savings along the way to getting to the 9th trait.

Plus, let's be honest. You can power-level everything else for crafting. The fact that it takes a long time to become a 9-trait crafter is the only thing stopping someone who's never crafted before from overnight becoming just as good at crafting as someone who's been crafting since launch.

And, the resulting research time is hilariously inflated as a result. As I recall, we were actually seeing the first full nine trait crafters before ESO+ was a thing. Which puts it at under a 10 months. Again, 6 to 7, with an efficient pattern sounds about right.

Leandor · February 2017

The problem with reducing research times is you will always outrage those that spent the time. The older the game gets, the more players are outraged.

This issue has been gone since about the time the first guy finished all research (anyone still remember that 300+ post thread of congratulations? We all were nice at one time...)

ElliottXO · February 2017

Yes

KaiVox22 wrote: »

Yeah not gonna happen or all of us who researched them the long way WILL revolt

Superb argument. Let's keep a chore system because you already went through the chore.

Remag_Div · February 2017

Yes

UrQuan wrote: »

The way you have it laid is not the most efficient way to research all of the traits.

The way you have it listed above, for both blacksmithing and clothing you've got 1 research slot sitting idle for a full 88 days. If you do it properly, it's only when you're down to researching your last two traits for a craft that you'll have a research slot idle.

That means that you don't research every trait for 3 items, then move on to research every trait for the next 3 items. Instead you research the first trait for 3 items, then the first trait for the next 3 items, and so on. You'll end up with staggered research times for some of your research slots, and the only time any slot will be idle is when you're down to researching your last 2 traits.

Also, you're not taking into account ESO plus, which makes a significant difference in the total amount of time. Taking 27 days to research the 9th trait on an item rather than 30 days is a big deal, even without taking into account all of the time savings along the way to getting to the 9th trait.

Plus, let's be honest. You can power-level everything else for crafting. The fact that it takes a long time to become a 9-trait crafter is the only thing stopping someone who's never crafted before from overnight becoming just as good at crafting as someone who's been crafting since launch.

You're right, I forgot about the ESO+ buff and I didn't take into account the optimal way to research via the "first trait for 3 items".

In that regard, it would take less time then 440 days. Not sure the exact time, but I still feel it could be faster. Prof_Bawbag made a good point in people overreact when change is involved. Suddenly people think I want 9 trait researchers to be done in a matter of days when I'm simply stating I would be down with a system where you can invest more skill points into crafting to further increase the % increase to research timers.

MarkusLiberty · February 2017

No

How exactly does research time change depending on the order in which you choose to do them? When you stack every trait, you still get the same overall research time, regardless of order. Or is my brain completely useless today?

SaRuZ · February 2017

No

I am also just now beginning 8th trait research on Blacksmithing & Clothier and last three 9th trait Woodworking is on the countdown.

Honestly, it sucks but we knew it going into it. If you didn't, should have googled, ya know google? That search engine everyone uses when they need to find something out about anything, it's instant.

Oh and nobody seemed concerned about this until ZoS began rewarding master crafters, locking certain sealed writs behind a wall. Get over it.

Remag_Div · February 2017

Yes

SaRuZ wrote: »

Honestly, it sucks but we knew it going into it. If you didn't, should have googled, ya know google? That search engine everyone uses when they need to find something out about anything, it's instant.

What is with this condescending crap?

I was well aware of the research timers, I made a thread asking the community what their thoughts are on the timers.

JKorr · February 2017

No

ElliottXO wrote: »

KaiVox22 wrote: »

Yeah not gonna happen or all of us who researched them the long way WILL revolt

Superb argument. Let's keep a chore system because you already went through the chore.

Yes, let's.

You also need to add in the rng routine of going to craglorn, doing the quest to get a random nirnhoned item to research. The first people who did it had to run the quest multiple times to get the various items to do the research.

Thanks to truly wonderful guildies, I only had to find the nirncrux. They made me nirnhoned items for research as I got the nirncrux. But they did the grinding work to get the items to research in the first place.

You can research three traits at a time. Many guilds have crafters who will make research items for free, although you will probably have to provide the nirncrux. Once the research is done you can respec and get the points back. I really don't see why things would have to change. :shrug: I would agree that it would have to change, if you had to park your character at the crafting station or a library for the time it takes to research. But you don't. Research goes on in the background while you play.

Prof_Bawbag · February 2017

starkerealm wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Erm, eh ... way to take it to the extreme.

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

After all, my grandfather used to get up at 4am to work down a mine shaft and not return home until around 8pm. Doesn't mean we all have to do the same *** to earn the same wage.

Not much more extreme than that. We're talking about a videogame, not, literally, working in a coalmine.

There's a huge jump between 16 hour days, black lung, and an eventual, painful, death, and, you know, playing a videogame for fun. You could almost say there's an "extreme" difference between these things.

So, it takes a few months to get what you want? So what? That's ultimately going right into the area of, "I want everything and I want it now." Yes, I know, you didn't intend for it to be quite that binary, but, I mean, really, if ESO reminds you of a coalmine... maybe you need to find a less stressful hobby.

Yes, it reminds me of being down a coal mine since you're so desperate to use it as something more than the analogy it was supposed to be. Glad we've got that out of the way now. Have a pat on the head. Seriously, I wouldn't have expected anything more from some dullard who enters into debates armed with nothing but rebuttals about stuff he would have liked to have been typed by the person he's disagreeing with, rather than what was actually said.

Amazing the amount of people on here that jump into debates and attempt to make their own argument seem more sound based on things that were never said. I'm sure you'll have a point in there somewhere, but I really can't be bothered with people like you. Nothing personal as I don't know you, I can't even recall ever discussing anything with you, so maybe you're not always like this. Just stick to what was actually said if you're gonna attempt to rubbish the arguments of others and want people to remain interested in anything further you've got to say. If the OP or myself were wanting everything in an instant or within a week, I'm sure s/he and I would have said so.

Lynx7386 · February 2017

Yes

At the very least, crafted sets need to be worth the effort it takes to do all that research.

Right now only a small handful of crafted sets are any good, and even those are just brief stepping stones to the far superior dropped or pvp sets

UrQuan · February 2017

ElliottXO wrote: »

KaiVox22 wrote: »

Yeah not gonna happen or all of us who researched them the long way WILL revolt

Superb argument. Let's keep a chore system because you already went through the chore.

Pretending you don't understand why it would be problematic at best to make this change isn't exactly a superb argument on your part you know.

Let me spell it out in case you actually don't understand the issue (which I highly doubt).

People who went through the "chore" have a way to earn gold by crafting 9-trait sets like Twice-Born Star for people who decided they didn't want to go through the effort to become 9-trait crafters.

If the "chore" was removed or made significantly less of a chore, then you've taken away a source of income from those people who actually made the effort to complete the "chore".

Not only that, but with the addition of Master Writs, people who made the effort to become 9-trait crafters are supposed to now be rewarded by having better drop rates for Master Writs, which gives them another in-game source of income. Making it so that anyone can quickly become a 9-trait crafter would take that away as well, as soon everyone would be able to max out their Master Writ drop rates. And then you'd have altaholics like me ruining the Master Writ economy by having 28 characters a day doing writs with a high chance of getting Master Writs, while people with only 1 character who have been crafting and researching since day 1 get left in the dust.

A small change in the amount of time it takes to research the traits wouldn't be a big deal. A significant change would be a big middle finger to people who have gone through the research grind in order to have an in-game source of income.

And for the record, I've been a full 9-trait crafter for over a year, but I don't actually make any gold off it because I can't be bothered to sell my services. So I wouldn't personally be negatively affected by a big change in the amount of time to research traits (in fact, I would benefit because with my virtual army of alts I'd be getting more Master Writs than I do today), but it would have a major negative impact on actual dedicated crafters trying to make some gold off the effort they've put into becoming master crafters.

idk · February 2017

No

@Remag_Div

The research times have been in place for almost 3 years now. Very little mention of wanting the times changed during that almost 3 years.

With the current master writ additions many of us are doing research on alts and again, little issues with the research times. Yes, it takes a bit but with passives points and ESO+ is shortens the times considerably.

In understanding new players see the time as daunting, every crafter has had to go through the same thing. More would probably be upset if they spent all the time going through research and in the end Zos made it much easier. It generally does not go over will in MMOs.

UrQuan · February 2017

Remag_Div wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag made a good point in people overreact when change is involved. Suddenly people think I want 9 trait researchers to be done in a matter of days when I'm simply stating I would be down with a system where you can invest more skill points into crafting to further increase the % increase to research timers.

See and this part right here is why I haven't actually voted in the poll. I think a relatively small decrease in the time to research traits (through investing more skill points, or whatever other mechanism) would be fine, but a major decrease wouldn't be fine at all.

And to be fair, your title of "Trait research times need to be heavily toned down" (emphasis added by me) is why people are thinking you want 9 trait research to be done in a matter of days.

UrQuan · February 2017

MarkusLiberty wrote: »

How exactly does research time change depending on the order in which you choose to do them? When you stack every trait, you still get the same overall research time, regardless of order. Or is my brain completely useless today?

It's because the maximum number of traits you can research at a time is 3, but the total number of items that you can research traits on is not divisible by 3 (well, not for blacksmithing or clothing anyway). So if you research all 9 traits on 3 items at a time, and then move on to researching all 9 traits on the next 3 items, and continue that way you'll end up wasting 1 of your 3 research slots when you get to the last 2 items that you haven't yet researched any traits on.

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Trait research times need to be toned down

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