Backlash is stupid

pieratsos · February 2017

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Should the class with the highest healing output, the best group heal, and the cheapest purge have high damage, though? If we gave stam NB a Breath of Life or Major Mending then that would be obviously broken, but we're cool with giving Templar a harder-hitting Curse?

First of all, I would trade Backlash for Curse is a blink of an eye and not think twice about it. Curse can crit and I've gotten 9k curses and I'm not even one of those sorcs that stack 50K+ magicka. Curse explodes faster, can't be blocked, and doesn't require me to do a crapton of damage in 6 seconds to actually get that 9K figure

Second of all, the narrative that templars are somehow uniquely gifted in high self-healing is nonsense. Every halfway decent stam build through vigor and rally will output more self-healing per second than my templar, particularly that very same stam NB you lament about because of its easy access to heal debuffs. Stam sorc Dark Deal is a burst heal which also restores a primary resource. DKs new Dragonblood toy is just as high as BoL and is actually a guaranteed self-heal, and a sorc shield stacking gives them a higher effective health pool than templars. Also Healing Ward is a superior heal to breath of life; it does require a resto staff which is why most templars wont use it in cyrodiil (but the do use it in PvE content such as vet Maelstrom).

What templars can do that the other classes can't is heal others, which is something that many templars couldnt give a hoot about because it is of absolutely zero use in say a 1v1 against say a mDK who will out heal us because of dragonblood, embers, whips, etc., or vs. your typical Rally-Vigor stam dizzy blow spamming proctard.

Since you seem to want templars to be nothing but impotent healbots, that's fine, we'll be healbots. But when you take away templars ability to actually do damage, then fair is fair and take away the vigor+rally combo that accompanies the ridiculous burst damage for stamina, strip away shield stacking on sorcs, revert the Dragonblood back to its uselessness, and dont allow Mageblades to use healing ward.

So you are saying backlash is the only way for templars to do dmg?

Backlash is probably the most effective way we have to deal with permablockers thanks for the blazing spear nerf.

Blazing spear didnt go through block. Luminous is the one that goes through block and thats the way templars are supposed to deal with permablockers even tho luminous is crap and it needs some help. And i cant really see how backlash is going to help you against a permablocker. All ur stored dmg will be blocked so it will never do the full dmg. If anything, blocking is a counter to backlash not the other way around. What backlash gives is burst potential, not a way to counter block.

Huggelz · February 2017

People always complain about skills not being useful and when ZOS gives them a use people just complain it's broken. Boozdog just told you the best counterplay for the skill so instead of complaining just go ahead and l2p.

maxjapank · February 2017

Backlash is viable now. It isn't op. It's just something new for people to deal with, as it was never used before. Why don't you give it a month or two before asking for a nerf?

Armitas · February 2017

Cinbri wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

This was in a 1v1, I'm at 26k physical resist (major resolve from Shadow Barrier, minor resolve (and Major Evasion) from Mirage, Blood Spawn proc, 5 heavy) and 3.5k crit resist (5 impen+Transmutation proc.) It's even worse against magic Templars--I'm convinced nobody at ZOS checked to see how insane Backlash+Soul Assault+Radiant Oppression would be before pushing this to live.

Hmm i guess you havent seen the surprise attacks, dizzying swings, or frags hitting for same numbers and they are spamable. At least with this backlash you have 6 seconds of eternity to defend yourself before it explodes.

You can time POTL to go off right after you hit somebody with Dizzying Swing and Dawnbreaker, it not being spammable isn't a weakness.

Cinbri wrote: »

9203 damage from Backlash means in previous 6seconds you received ~23000 damage. It is already overkill, and given how much damage you ate with your parameters - enemy didn't even reacched cap as it should hit for ~11k damage.
Grim Focus might take couple more seconds to activate but will hit for same numbers while doesn't require to store damage, proced Frags with you parameters(in case you have at least 50 points into physical resistance CP) will hit you for 8k without require to store damage along with new unblockable Curse.
Suggestion: stop looking on magplar as "no damage healbot" and on stamplar as "useless stamina build".

Should the class with the highest healing output, the best group heal, and the cheapest purge have high damage, though? If we gave stam NB a Breath of Life or Major Mending then that would be obviously broken, but we're cool with giving Templar a harder-hitting Curse?

You probably didn't know but mDK already have everything that possible to have.

Like Purge for example.

arkansas_ESO · February 2017

Huggelz wrote: »

People always complain about skills not being useful and when ZOS gives them a use people just complain it's broken. Boozdog just told you the best counterplay for the skill so instead of complaining just go ahead and l2p.

I appreciate Boozdog's input, and I'll be dodge rolling every Backlash that I can until they fix it, but Backlash not going through dodge is likely a bug that will be fixed at some point. It's not actual, intended counterplay.

timidobserver · February 2017

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Should the class with the highest healing output, the best group heal, and the cheapest purge have high damage, though? If we gave stam NB a Breath of Life or Major Mending then that would be obviously broken, but we're cool with giving Templar a harder-hitting Curse?

First of all, I would trade Backlash for Curse is a blink of an eye and not think twice about it. Curse can crit and I've gotten 9k curses and I'm not even one of those sorcs that stack 50K+ magicka. Curse explodes faster, can't be blocked, and doesn't require me to do a crapton of damage in 6 seconds to actually get that 9K figure

Second of all, the narrative that templars are somehow uniquely gifted in high self-healing is nonsense. Every halfway decent stam build through vigor and rally will output more self-healing per second than my templar, particularly that very same stam NB you lament about because of its easy access to heal debuffs. Stam sorc Dark Deal is a burst heal which also restores a primary resource. DKs new Dragonblood toy is just as high as BoL and is actually a guaranteed self-heal, and a sorc shield stacking gives them a higher effective health pool than templars. Also Healing Ward is a superior heal to breath of life; it does require a resto staff which is why most templars wont use it in cyrodiil (but the do use it in PvE content such as vet Maelstrom).

What templars can do that the other classes can't is heal others, which is something that many templars couldnt give a hoot about because it is of absolutely zero use in say a 1v1 against say a mDK who will out heal us because of dragonblood, embers, whips, etc., or vs. your typical Rally-Vigor stam dizzy blow spamming proctard.

Since you seem to want templars to be nothing but impotent healbots, that's fine, we'll be healbots. But when you take away templars ability to actually do damage, then fair is fair and take away the vigor+rally combo that accompanies the ridiculous burst damage for stamina, strip away shield stacking on sorcs, revert the Dragonblood back to its uselessness, and dont allow Mageblades to use healing ward.

So you are saying backlash is the only way for templars to do dmg?

Backlash is probably the most effective way we have to deal with permablockers thanks for the blazing spear nerf.

Blazing spear didnt go through block. Luminous is the one that goes through block and thats the way templars are supposed to deal with permablockers even tho luminous is crap and it needs some help. And i cant really see how backlash is going to help you against a permablocker. All ur stored dmg will be blocked so it will never do the full dmg. If anything, blocking is a counter to backlash not the other way around. What backlash gives is burst potential, not a way to counter block.

Awesome, you go ahead and counter backlash by blocking.

Minno · February 2017

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Huggelz wrote: »

People always complain about skills not being useful and when ZOS gives them a use people just complain it's broken. Boozdog just told you the best counterplay for the skill so instead of complaining just go ahead and l2p.

I appreciate Boozdog's input, and I'll be dodge rolling every Backlash that I can until they fix it, but Backlash not going through dodge is likely a bug that will be fixed at some point. It's not actual, intended counterplay.

The classes eacg need a spell that ignores dodge roll. Though, if it requires conditions that make instant cast abilities more attractive, then they should review the ability and make adjustments.

This spell needs you to hit the enemy, wait 6 seconds, and is single target (it's spamable on multiple targets, but still need to focus on one to gain max output). For a single target, hard to use spell, I expect it to do something else to help offset it from instant cast abilities. Since it's a condition based spell, it should debuff the enemy. Maybe reduce the Magicka or stamina resource Regen of the enemy? Maybe it adds extra dmg on all your attacks after the effect ends?

pieratsos · February 2017

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Should the class with the highest healing output, the best group heal, and the cheapest purge have high damage, though? If we gave stam NB a Breath of Life or Major Mending then that would be obviously broken, but we're cool with giving Templar a harder-hitting Curse?

First of all, I would trade Backlash for Curse is a blink of an eye and not think twice about it. Curse can crit and I've gotten 9k curses and I'm not even one of those sorcs that stack 50K+ magicka. Curse explodes faster, can't be blocked, and doesn't require me to do a crapton of damage in 6 seconds to actually get that 9K figure

Second of all, the narrative that templars are somehow uniquely gifted in high self-healing is nonsense. Every halfway decent stam build through vigor and rally will output more self-healing per second than my templar, particularly that very same stam NB you lament about because of its easy access to heal debuffs. Stam sorc Dark Deal is a burst heal which also restores a primary resource. DKs new Dragonblood toy is just as high as BoL and is actually a guaranteed self-heal, and a sorc shield stacking gives them a higher effective health pool than templars. Also Healing Ward is a superior heal to breath of life; it does require a resto staff which is why most templars wont use it in cyrodiil (but the do use it in PvE content such as vet Maelstrom).

What templars can do that the other classes can't is heal others, which is something that many templars couldnt give a hoot about because it is of absolutely zero use in say a 1v1 against say a mDK who will out heal us because of dragonblood, embers, whips, etc., or vs. your typical Rally-Vigor stam dizzy blow spamming proctard.

Since you seem to want templars to be nothing but impotent healbots, that's fine, we'll be healbots. But when you take away templars ability to actually do damage, then fair is fair and take away the vigor+rally combo that accompanies the ridiculous burst damage for stamina, strip away shield stacking on sorcs, revert the Dragonblood back to its uselessness, and dont allow Mageblades to use healing ward.

So you are saying backlash is the only way for templars to do dmg?

Backlash is probably the most effective way we have to deal with permablockers thanks for the blazing spear nerf.

Blazing spear didnt go through block. Luminous is the one that goes through block and thats the way templars are supposed to deal with permablockers even tho luminous is crap and it needs some help. And i cant really see how backlash is going to help you against a permablocker. All ur stored dmg will be blocked so it will never do the full dmg. If anything, blocking is a counter to backlash not the other way around. What backlash gives is burst potential, not a way to counter block.

Awesome, you go ahead and counter backlash by blocking.

And you go ahead and reach the dmg cap in 6 seconds on someone that is permablocking. lol. Is this a joke? Did you even think about it? You do realise that the devs said that this was what they had in mind right? Backlash was designed to give templars burst and the way to counter it is to prevent the stored dmg.

timidobserver · February 2017

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Should the class with the highest healing output, the best group heal, and the cheapest purge have high damage, though? If we gave stam NB a Breath of Life or Major Mending then that would be obviously broken, but we're cool with giving Templar a harder-hitting Curse?

First of all, I would trade Backlash for Curse is a blink of an eye and not think twice about it. Curse can crit and I've gotten 9k curses and I'm not even one of those sorcs that stack 50K+ magicka. Curse explodes faster, can't be blocked, and doesn't require me to do a crapton of damage in 6 seconds to actually get that 9K figure

Second of all, the narrative that templars are somehow uniquely gifted in high self-healing is nonsense. Every halfway decent stam build through vigor and rally will output more self-healing per second than my templar, particularly that very same stam NB you lament about because of its easy access to heal debuffs. Stam sorc Dark Deal is a burst heal which also restores a primary resource. DKs new Dragonblood toy is just as high as BoL and is actually a guaranteed self-heal, and a sorc shield stacking gives them a higher effective health pool than templars. Also Healing Ward is a superior heal to breath of life; it does require a resto staff which is why most templars wont use it in cyrodiil (but the do use it in PvE content such as vet Maelstrom).

What templars can do that the other classes can't is heal others, which is something that many templars couldnt give a hoot about because it is of absolutely zero use in say a 1v1 against say a mDK who will out heal us because of dragonblood, embers, whips, etc., or vs. your typical Rally-Vigor stam dizzy blow spamming proctard.

Since you seem to want templars to be nothing but impotent healbots, that's fine, we'll be healbots. But when you take away templars ability to actually do damage, then fair is fair and take away the vigor+rally combo that accompanies the ridiculous burst damage for stamina, strip away shield stacking on sorcs, revert the Dragonblood back to its uselessness, and dont allow Mageblades to use healing ward.

So you are saying backlash is the only way for templars to do dmg?

Backlash is probably the most effective way we have to deal with permablockers thanks for the blazing spear nerf.

Blazing spear didnt go through block. Luminous is the one that goes through block and thats the way templars are supposed to deal with permablockers even tho luminous is crap and it needs some help. And i cant really see how backlash is going to help you against a permablocker. All ur stored dmg will be blocked so it will never do the full dmg. If anything, blocking is a counter to backlash not the other way around. What backlash gives is burst potential, not a way to counter block.

Awesome, you go ahead and counter backlash by blocking.

And you go ahead and reach the dmg cap in 6 seconds on someone that is permablocking. lol. Is this a joke? Did you even think about it? You do realise that the devs said that this was what they had in mind right? Backlash was designed to give templars burst and the way to counter it is to prevent the stored dmg.

I reach the damage cap or at least a very nice 7-8k hit on people that are blocking all the time. Using it on stam builds and block builds is my favorite use for the skill. You can easily line up a combined nice burst against a blocking target with this skill. Though, there is really no need for me to convince you of anything. So feel free to continue on.

Sizaansil · February 2017

I know I'm gonna get some heat once again but can anyone confirm that Backlash and its morphs are bugged ? What I noticed was that you could store up the damage to create a bigger final explosion by reapplying the skill before it goes off. Something like that :

0s : Backlash inital damage for 5k
2s : Reapply Backlash for an inital explosion of 5k damage
4s : ....
Around 40 sec : let Backlash go off for the cap value

I really doubt that's intended

timidobserver · February 2017

Sizaansil wrote: »

I know I'm gonna get some heat from all templars once again but can anyone confirm that Backlash and its morphs are bugged ? What I noticed was that you could store up the damage to create a bigger final explosion by reapplying the skill before it goes off. Something like that :

0s : Backlash inital damage for 5k
2s : Reapply Backlash for an inital explosion of 5k damage
4s : ....
Around 40 sec : let Backlash go off for the cap value

I really doubt that's intended

I just tested this and was not seeing that result. Are you taking into consideration that they added a base damage to backlash? In other words, just casting the skill does damage now.

Sizaansil · February 2017

timidobserver wrote: »

Sizaansil wrote: »

I know I'm gonna get some heat from all templars once again but can anyone confirm that Backlash and its morphs are bugged ? What I noticed was that you could store up the damage to create a bigger final explosion by reapplying the skill before it goes off. Something like that :

0s : Backlash inital damage for 5k
2s : Reapply Backlash for an inital explosion of 5k damage
4s : ....
Around 40 sec : let Backlash go off for the cap value

I really doubt that's intended

I just tested this and was not seeing that result. Are you taking into consideration that they added a base damage to backlash? In other words, just casting the skill does damage now.

Yes absolutely. Let me try and get a decent screenshot

pieratsos · February 2017

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Should the class with the highest healing output, the best group heal, and the cheapest purge have high damage, though? If we gave stam NB a Breath of Life or Major Mending then that would be obviously broken, but we're cool with giving Templar a harder-hitting Curse?

First of all, I would trade Backlash for Curse is a blink of an eye and not think twice about it. Curse can crit and I've gotten 9k curses and I'm not even one of those sorcs that stack 50K+ magicka. Curse explodes faster, can't be blocked, and doesn't require me to do a crapton of damage in 6 seconds to actually get that 9K figure

Second of all, the narrative that templars are somehow uniquely gifted in high self-healing is nonsense. Every halfway decent stam build through vigor and rally will output more self-healing per second than my templar, particularly that very same stam NB you lament about because of its easy access to heal debuffs. Stam sorc Dark Deal is a burst heal which also restores a primary resource. DKs new Dragonblood toy is just as high as BoL and is actually a guaranteed self-heal, and a sorc shield stacking gives them a higher effective health pool than templars. Also Healing Ward is a superior heal to breath of life; it does require a resto staff which is why most templars wont use it in cyrodiil (but the do use it in PvE content such as vet Maelstrom).

What templars can do that the other classes can't is heal others, which is something that many templars couldnt give a hoot about because it is of absolutely zero use in say a 1v1 against say a mDK who will out heal us because of dragonblood, embers, whips, etc., or vs. your typical Rally-Vigor stam dizzy blow spamming proctard.

Since you seem to want templars to be nothing but impotent healbots, that's fine, we'll be healbots. But when you take away templars ability to actually do damage, then fair is fair and take away the vigor+rally combo that accompanies the ridiculous burst damage for stamina, strip away shield stacking on sorcs, revert the Dragonblood back to its uselessness, and dont allow Mageblades to use healing ward.

So you are saying backlash is the only way for templars to do dmg?

Backlash is probably the most effective way we have to deal with permablockers thanks for the blazing spear nerf.

Blazing spear didnt go through block. Luminous is the one that goes through block and thats the way templars are supposed to deal with permablockers even tho luminous is crap and it needs some help. And i cant really see how backlash is going to help you against a permablocker. All ur stored dmg will be blocked so it will never do the full dmg. If anything, blocking is a counter to backlash not the other way around. What backlash gives is burst potential, not a way to counter block.

Awesome, you go ahead and counter backlash by blocking.

And you go ahead and reach the dmg cap in 6 seconds on someone that is permablocking. lol. Is this a joke? Did you even think about it? You do realise that the devs said that this was what they had in mind right? Backlash was designed to give templars burst and the way to counter it is to prevent the stored dmg.

I reach the damage cap or at least a very nice 7-8k hit on people that are blocking all the time. Using it on stam builds and block builds is my favorite use for the skill. You can easily line up a combined nice burst against a blocking target with this skill. Though, there is really no need for me to convince you of anything. So feel free to continue on.

No need to convince me of anything. Just saying that the main point everyone makes when they defend backlash is that u have to do an insane amount of to reach the cap. I guess you just threw that argument out of the window. So its basically a guaranteed unblockable huge burst ability with absolutely no counterplay.

React · February 2017

Lol stamplars get a decent, skillful ability to use that requires you to play around a 6 second window and everyone is ready to jump on the nerf wagon after one week?

You all do realize that the class was nearly unused for 6 months due to having no sustain and little use able burst....?

But disregard that, let's just nerf it because people are qqing about a 9k unblockable that requires 23k damage to be done in 6 seconds.. silly peasant stamplars thinking they should be able to burst. They should just all roll magsorc or mdk and conform to the meta.

timidobserver · February 2017

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Should the class with the highest healing output, the best group heal, and the cheapest purge have high damage, though? If we gave stam NB a Breath of Life or Major Mending then that would be obviously broken, but we're cool with giving Templar a harder-hitting Curse?

First of all, I would trade Backlash for Curse is a blink of an eye and not think twice about it. Curse can crit and I've gotten 9k curses and I'm not even one of those sorcs that stack 50K+ magicka. Curse explodes faster, can't be blocked, and doesn't require me to do a crapton of damage in 6 seconds to actually get that 9K figure

Second of all, the narrative that templars are somehow uniquely gifted in high self-healing is nonsense. Every halfway decent stam build through vigor and rally will output more self-healing per second than my templar, particularly that very same stam NB you lament about because of its easy access to heal debuffs. Stam sorc Dark Deal is a burst heal which also restores a primary resource. DKs new Dragonblood toy is just as high as BoL and is actually a guaranteed self-heal, and a sorc shield stacking gives them a higher effective health pool than templars. Also Healing Ward is a superior heal to breath of life; it does require a resto staff which is why most templars wont use it in cyrodiil (but the do use it in PvE content such as vet Maelstrom).

What templars can do that the other classes can't is heal others, which is something that many templars couldnt give a hoot about because it is of absolutely zero use in say a 1v1 against say a mDK who will out heal us because of dragonblood, embers, whips, etc., or vs. your typical Rally-Vigor stam dizzy blow spamming proctard.

Since you seem to want templars to be nothing but impotent healbots, that's fine, we'll be healbots. But when you take away templars ability to actually do damage, then fair is fair and take away the vigor+rally combo that accompanies the ridiculous burst damage for stamina, strip away shield stacking on sorcs, revert the Dragonblood back to its uselessness, and dont allow Mageblades to use healing ward.

So you are saying backlash is the only way for templars to do dmg?

Backlash is probably the most effective way we have to deal with permablockers thanks for the blazing spear nerf.

Blazing spear didnt go through block. Luminous is the one that goes through block and thats the way templars are supposed to deal with permablockers even tho luminous is crap and it needs some help. And i cant really see how backlash is going to help you against a permablocker. All ur stored dmg will be blocked so it will never do the full dmg. If anything, blocking is a counter to backlash not the other way around. What backlash gives is burst potential, not a way to counter block.

Awesome, you go ahead and counter backlash by blocking.

And you go ahead and reach the dmg cap in 6 seconds on someone that is permablocking. lol. Is this a joke? Did you even think about it? You do realise that the devs said that this was what they had in mind right? Backlash was designed to give templars burst and the way to counter it is to prevent the stored dmg.

I reach the damage cap or at least a very nice 7-8k hit on people that are blocking all the time. Using it on stam builds and block builds is my favorite use for the skill. You can easily line up a combined nice burst against a blocking target with this skill. Though, there is really no need for me to convince you of anything. So feel free to continue on.

No need to convince me of anything. Just saying that the main point everyone makes when they defend backlash is that u have to do an insane amount of to reach the cap. I guess you just threw that argument out of the window. So its basically a guaranteed unblockable huge burst ability with absolutely no counterplay.

Not quite.

The weakness to purifying light is that the caster has to be on the offensive for it to do decent damage. Meaning, someone has to sit there and let you hit them. A Sorc can curse you, teleport around in a circles spamming shields, and then load a frag and a meteor into you to create burst when the curse explodes. Putting the purifying light user on the defensive, ccing them, cleansing it, or los them will reduce the damage signficantly. The only thing I am saying to you in my previous posts is that it is possible to get a decent purifying light hit against a blocking target.

Sizaansil · February 2017

That's what I'm talking about :

Because yes "Backlash: This ability and its morphs now deal moderate damage when they are initially applied to the enemy. This damage does not contribute to the copied damage delivered at the end of the ability’s duration" is not working either

pieratsos · February 2017

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Should the class with the highest healing output, the best group heal, and the cheapest purge have high damage, though? If we gave stam NB a Breath of Life or Major Mending then that would be obviously broken, but we're cool with giving Templar a harder-hitting Curse?

First of all, I would trade Backlash for Curse is a blink of an eye and not think twice about it. Curse can crit and I've gotten 9k curses and I'm not even one of those sorcs that stack 50K+ magicka. Curse explodes faster, can't be blocked, and doesn't require me to do a crapton of damage in 6 seconds to actually get that 9K figure

Second of all, the narrative that templars are somehow uniquely gifted in high self-healing is nonsense. Every halfway decent stam build through vigor and rally will output more self-healing per second than my templar, particularly that very same stam NB you lament about because of its easy access to heal debuffs. Stam sorc Dark Deal is a burst heal which also restores a primary resource. DKs new Dragonblood toy is just as high as BoL and is actually a guaranteed self-heal, and a sorc shield stacking gives them a higher effective health pool than templars. Also Healing Ward is a superior heal to breath of life; it does require a resto staff which is why most templars wont use it in cyrodiil (but the do use it in PvE content such as vet Maelstrom).

What templars can do that the other classes can't is heal others, which is something that many templars couldnt give a hoot about because it is of absolutely zero use in say a 1v1 against say a mDK who will out heal us because of dragonblood, embers, whips, etc., or vs. your typical Rally-Vigor stam dizzy blow spamming proctard.

Since you seem to want templars to be nothing but impotent healbots, that's fine, we'll be healbots. But when you take away templars ability to actually do damage, then fair is fair and take away the vigor+rally combo that accompanies the ridiculous burst damage for stamina, strip away shield stacking on sorcs, revert the Dragonblood back to its uselessness, and dont allow Mageblades to use healing ward.

So you are saying backlash is the only way for templars to do dmg?

Backlash is probably the most effective way we have to deal with permablockers thanks for the blazing spear nerf.

Blazing spear didnt go through block. Luminous is the one that goes through block and thats the way templars are supposed to deal with permablockers even tho luminous is crap and it needs some help. And i cant really see how backlash is going to help you against a permablocker. All ur stored dmg will be blocked so it will never do the full dmg. If anything, blocking is a counter to backlash not the other way around. What backlash gives is burst potential, not a way to counter block.

Awesome, you go ahead and counter backlash by blocking.

And you go ahead and reach the dmg cap in 6 seconds on someone that is permablocking. lol. Is this a joke? Did you even think about it? You do realise that the devs said that this was what they had in mind right? Backlash was designed to give templars burst and the way to counter it is to prevent the stored dmg.

I reach the damage cap or at least a very nice 7-8k hit on people that are blocking all the time. Using it on stam builds and block builds is my favorite use for the skill. You can easily line up a combined nice burst against a blocking target with this skill. Though, there is really no need for me to convince you of anything. So feel free to continue on.

No need to convince me of anything. Just saying that the main point everyone makes when they defend backlash is that u have to do an insane amount of to reach the cap. I guess you just threw that argument out of the window. So its basically a guaranteed unblockable huge burst ability with absolutely no counterplay.

Not quite.

The weakness to purifying light is that the caster has to be on the offensive for it to do decent damage. Meaning, someone has to sit there and let you hit them. A Sorc can curse you, teleport around in a circles spamming shields, and then load a frag and a meteor into you to create burst when the curse explodes. Putting the purifying light user on the defensive, ccing them, cleansing it, or los them will reduce the damage signficantly. The only thing I am saying to you in my previous posts is that it is possible to get a decent purifying light hit against a blocking target.

Cleanse isnt a counterplay unless u are a templar and los is counterplay to everything. If u can do that much dmg on a blocking target it means that u have to do much less on someone who isnt permablocking. So you dont exactly have to be on the offensive all the time. And while i do agree that curse is better it still doesnt hit for over 10k. The only way to hit someone that hard is if they have very low resistances and if ur curse crits. The average curse wont hit anywhere near 10k. So if u dont consider backlash a guaranteed huge burst then the same applies for curse. Its not a guaranteed huge burst. And while i dont have a problem with templars having burst potential you cant exactly justify it by saying sorcs can do even more burst. You are comparing apples with oranges. Its two completely different classes. Sorcs are designed to do burst dmg. They dont have a spammable ability, dots or the same defenses with templars. Sorcs need that burst cause they are not going to kill anything without it.

timidobserver · February 2017

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Should the class with the highest healing output, the best group heal, and the cheapest purge have high damage, though? If we gave stam NB a Breath of Life or Major Mending then that would be obviously broken, but we're cool with giving Templar a harder-hitting Curse?

First of all, I would trade Backlash for Curse is a blink of an eye and not think twice about it. Curse can crit and I've gotten 9k curses and I'm not even one of those sorcs that stack 50K+ magicka. Curse explodes faster, can't be blocked, and doesn't require me to do a crapton of damage in 6 seconds to actually get that 9K figure

Second of all, the narrative that templars are somehow uniquely gifted in high self-healing is nonsense. Every halfway decent stam build through vigor and rally will output more self-healing per second than my templar, particularly that very same stam NB you lament about because of its easy access to heal debuffs. Stam sorc Dark Deal is a burst heal which also restores a primary resource. DKs new Dragonblood toy is just as high as BoL and is actually a guaranteed self-heal, and a sorc shield stacking gives them a higher effective health pool than templars. Also Healing Ward is a superior heal to breath of life; it does require a resto staff which is why most templars wont use it in cyrodiil (but the do use it in PvE content such as vet Maelstrom).

What templars can do that the other classes can't is heal others, which is something that many templars couldnt give a hoot about because it is of absolutely zero use in say a 1v1 against say a mDK who will out heal us because of dragonblood, embers, whips, etc., or vs. your typical Rally-Vigor stam dizzy blow spamming proctard.

Since you seem to want templars to be nothing but impotent healbots, that's fine, we'll be healbots. But when you take away templars ability to actually do damage, then fair is fair and take away the vigor+rally combo that accompanies the ridiculous burst damage for stamina, strip away shield stacking on sorcs, revert the Dragonblood back to its uselessness, and dont allow Mageblades to use healing ward.

So you are saying backlash is the only way for templars to do dmg?

Backlash is probably the most effective way we have to deal with permablockers thanks for the blazing spear nerf.

Blazing spear didnt go through block. Luminous is the one that goes through block and thats the way templars are supposed to deal with permablockers even tho luminous is crap and it needs some help. And i cant really see how backlash is going to help you against a permablocker. All ur stored dmg will be blocked so it will never do the full dmg. If anything, blocking is a counter to backlash not the other way around. What backlash gives is burst potential, not a way to counter block.

Awesome, you go ahead and counter backlash by blocking.

And you go ahead and reach the dmg cap in 6 seconds on someone that is permablocking. lol. Is this a joke? Did you even think about it? You do realise that the devs said that this was what they had in mind right? Backlash was designed to give templars burst and the way to counter it is to prevent the stored dmg.

I reach the damage cap or at least a very nice 7-8k hit on people that are blocking all the time. Using it on stam builds and block builds is my favorite use for the skill. You can easily line up a combined nice burst against a blocking target with this skill. Though, there is really no need for me to convince you of anything. So feel free to continue on.

No need to convince me of anything. Just saying that the main point everyone makes when they defend backlash is that u have to do an insane amount of to reach the cap. I guess you just threw that argument out of the window. So its basically a guaranteed unblockable huge burst ability with absolutely no counterplay.

Not quite.

The weakness to purifying light is that the caster has to be on the offensive for it to do decent damage. Meaning, someone has to sit there and let you hit them. A Sorc can curse you, teleport around in a circles spamming shields, and then load a frag and a meteor into you to create burst when the curse explodes. Putting the purifying light user on the defensive, ccing them, cleansing it, or los them will reduce the damage signficantly. The only thing I am saying to you in my previous posts is that it is possible to get a decent purifying light hit against a blocking target.

Cleanse isnt a counterplay unless u are a templar and los is counterplay to everything. If u can do that much dmg on a blocking target it means that u have to do much less on someone who isnt permablocking. So you dont exactly have to be on the offensive all the time. And while i do agree that curse is better it still doesnt hit for over 10k. The only way to hit someone that hard is if they have very low resistances and if ur curse crits. The average curse wont hit anywhere near 10k. So if u dont consider backlash a guaranteed huge burst then the same applies for curse. Its not a guaranteed huge burst. And while i dont have a problem with templars having burst potential you cant exactly justify it by saying sorcs can do even more burst. You are comparing apples with oranges. Its two completely different classes. Sorcs are designed to do burst dmg. They dont have a spammable ability, dots or the same defenses with templars. Sorcs need that burst cause they are not going to kill anything without it.

I gave you 4 ways to get around it. CC the Templar, LOS them( LOS doesn't apply to everything, you will be hit twice for full damage anyway if you LOS curse after it is cast), put them on the defensive, or cleanse it. Additionally, there is dodge rolling which can reduce some incoming damage thus reducing the backlash damage and the damage can be entirely avoided if the dodge roll is at the right moment. All of those things above are valid counterplay.

There is much more counterplay involved available with Purifying Light than there is in avoiding burst from a proc build.

pieratsos · February 2017

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Should the class with the highest healing output, the best group heal, and the cheapest purge have high damage, though? If we gave stam NB a Breath of Life or Major Mending then that would be obviously broken, but we're cool with giving Templar a harder-hitting Curse?

First of all, I would trade Backlash for Curse is a blink of an eye and not think twice about it. Curse can crit and I've gotten 9k curses and I'm not even one of those sorcs that stack 50K+ magicka. Curse explodes faster, can't be blocked, and doesn't require me to do a crapton of damage in 6 seconds to actually get that 9K figure

Second of all, the narrative that templars are somehow uniquely gifted in high self-healing is nonsense. Every halfway decent stam build through vigor and rally will output more self-healing per second than my templar, particularly that very same stam NB you lament about because of its easy access to heal debuffs. Stam sorc Dark Deal is a burst heal which also restores a primary resource. DKs new Dragonblood toy is just as high as BoL and is actually a guaranteed self-heal, and a sorc shield stacking gives them a higher effective health pool than templars. Also Healing Ward is a superior heal to breath of life; it does require a resto staff which is why most templars wont use it in cyrodiil (but the do use it in PvE content such as vet Maelstrom).

What templars can do that the other classes can't is heal others, which is something that many templars couldnt give a hoot about because it is of absolutely zero use in say a 1v1 against say a mDK who will out heal us because of dragonblood, embers, whips, etc., or vs. your typical Rally-Vigor stam dizzy blow spamming proctard.

Since you seem to want templars to be nothing but impotent healbots, that's fine, we'll be healbots. But when you take away templars ability to actually do damage, then fair is fair and take away the vigor+rally combo that accompanies the ridiculous burst damage for stamina, strip away shield stacking on sorcs, revert the Dragonblood back to its uselessness, and dont allow Mageblades to use healing ward.

So you are saying backlash is the only way for templars to do dmg?

Backlash is probably the most effective way we have to deal with permablockers thanks for the blazing spear nerf.

Blazing spear didnt go through block. Luminous is the one that goes through block and thats the way templars are supposed to deal with permablockers even tho luminous is crap and it needs some help. And i cant really see how backlash is going to help you against a permablocker. All ur stored dmg will be blocked so it will never do the full dmg. If anything, blocking is a counter to backlash not the other way around. What backlash gives is burst potential, not a way to counter block.

Awesome, you go ahead and counter backlash by blocking.

And you go ahead and reach the dmg cap in 6 seconds on someone that is permablocking. lol. Is this a joke? Did you even think about it? You do realise that the devs said that this was what they had in mind right? Backlash was designed to give templars burst and the way to counter it is to prevent the stored dmg.

I reach the damage cap or at least a very nice 7-8k hit on people that are blocking all the time. Using it on stam builds and block builds is my favorite use for the skill. You can easily line up a combined nice burst against a blocking target with this skill. Though, there is really no need for me to convince you of anything. So feel free to continue on.

No need to convince me of anything. Just saying that the main point everyone makes when they defend backlash is that u have to do an insane amount of to reach the cap. I guess you just threw that argument out of the window. So its basically a guaranteed unblockable huge burst ability with absolutely no counterplay.

Not quite.

The weakness to purifying light is that the caster has to be on the offensive for it to do decent damage. Meaning, someone has to sit there and let you hit them. A Sorc can curse you, teleport around in a circles spamming shields, and then load a frag and a meteor into you to create burst when the curse explodes. Putting the purifying light user on the defensive, ccing them, cleansing it, or los them will reduce the damage signficantly. The only thing I am saying to you in my previous posts is that it is possible to get a decent purifying light hit against a blocking target.

Cleanse isnt a counterplay unless u are a templar and los is counterplay to everything. If u can do that much dmg on a blocking target it means that u have to do much less on someone who isnt permablocking. So you dont exactly have to be on the offensive all the time. And while i do agree that curse is better it still doesnt hit for over 10k. The only way to hit someone that hard is if they have very low resistances and if ur curse crits. The average curse wont hit anywhere near 10k. So if u dont consider backlash a guaranteed huge burst then the same applies for curse. Its not a guaranteed huge burst. And while i dont have a problem with templars having burst potential you cant exactly justify it by saying sorcs can do even more burst. You are comparing apples with oranges. Its two completely different classes. Sorcs are designed to do burst dmg. They dont have a spammable ability, dots or the same defenses with templars. Sorcs need that burst cause they are not going to kill anything without it.

I gave you 4 ways to get around it. CC the Templar, LOS them( LOS doesn't apply to everything, you will be hit twice for full damage anyway if you LOS curse after it is cast), put them on the defensive, or cleanse it. Additionally, there is dodge rolling which can reduce some incoming damage thus reducing the backlash damage and the damage can be entirely avoided if the dodge roll is at the right moment. All of those things above are valid counterplay.

There is much more counterplay involved available with Purifying Light than there is in avoiding burst from a proc build.

And again like i told you curse by itself is not a guaranteed huge burst either. But i still dont see the relevance between the two. Sorcs are designed to do burst. Its their only source to do dmg. They need it otherwise they are not gonna kill anything.
And proctato builds are broken. Thats not an argument to make when u want to defend something.

timidobserver · February 2017

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Should the class with the highest healing output, the best group heal, and the cheapest purge have high damage, though? If we gave stam NB a Breath of Life or Major Mending then that would be obviously broken, but we're cool with giving Templar a harder-hitting Curse?

First of all, I would trade Backlash for Curse is a blink of an eye and not think twice about it. Curse can crit and I've gotten 9k curses and I'm not even one of those sorcs that stack 50K+ magicka. Curse explodes faster, can't be blocked, and doesn't require me to do a crapton of damage in 6 seconds to actually get that 9K figure

Second of all, the narrative that templars are somehow uniquely gifted in high self-healing is nonsense. Every halfway decent stam build through vigor and rally will output more self-healing per second than my templar, particularly that very same stam NB you lament about because of its easy access to heal debuffs. Stam sorc Dark Deal is a burst heal which also restores a primary resource. DKs new Dragonblood toy is just as high as BoL and is actually a guaranteed self-heal, and a sorc shield stacking gives them a higher effective health pool than templars. Also Healing Ward is a superior heal to breath of life; it does require a resto staff which is why most templars wont use it in cyrodiil (but the do use it in PvE content such as vet Maelstrom).

What templars can do that the other classes can't is heal others, which is something that many templars couldnt give a hoot about because it is of absolutely zero use in say a 1v1 against say a mDK who will out heal us because of dragonblood, embers, whips, etc., or vs. your typical Rally-Vigor stam dizzy blow spamming proctard.

Since you seem to want templars to be nothing but impotent healbots, that's fine, we'll be healbots. But when you take away templars ability to actually do damage, then fair is fair and take away the vigor+rally combo that accompanies the ridiculous burst damage for stamina, strip away shield stacking on sorcs, revert the Dragonblood back to its uselessness, and dont allow Mageblades to use healing ward.

So you are saying backlash is the only way for templars to do dmg?

Backlash is probably the most effective way we have to deal with permablockers thanks for the blazing spear nerf.

Blazing spear didnt go through block. Luminous is the one that goes through block and thats the way templars are supposed to deal with permablockers even tho luminous is crap and it needs some help. And i cant really see how backlash is going to help you against a permablocker. All ur stored dmg will be blocked so it will never do the full dmg. If anything, blocking is a counter to backlash not the other way around. What backlash gives is burst potential, not a way to counter block.

Awesome, you go ahead and counter backlash by blocking.

And you go ahead and reach the dmg cap in 6 seconds on someone that is permablocking. lol. Is this a joke? Did you even think about it? You do realise that the devs said that this was what they had in mind right? Backlash was designed to give templars burst and the way to counter it is to prevent the stored dmg.

I reach the damage cap or at least a very nice 7-8k hit on people that are blocking all the time. Using it on stam builds and block builds is my favorite use for the skill. You can easily line up a combined nice burst against a blocking target with this skill. Though, there is really no need for me to convince you of anything. So feel free to continue on.

No need to convince me of anything. Just saying that the main point everyone makes when they defend backlash is that u have to do an insane amount of to reach the cap. I guess you just threw that argument out of the window. So its basically a guaranteed unblockable huge burst ability with absolutely no counterplay.

Not quite.

The weakness to purifying light is that the caster has to be on the offensive for it to do decent damage. Meaning, someone has to sit there and let you hit them. A Sorc can curse you, teleport around in a circles spamming shields, and then load a frag and a meteor into you to create burst when the curse explodes. Putting the purifying light user on the defensive, ccing them, cleansing it, or los them will reduce the damage signficantly. The only thing I am saying to you in my previous posts is that it is possible to get a decent purifying light hit against a blocking target.

Cleanse isnt a counterplay unless u are a templar and los is counterplay to everything. If u can do that much dmg on a blocking target it means that u have to do much less on someone who isnt permablocking. So you dont exactly have to be on the offensive all the time. And while i do agree that curse is better it still doesnt hit for over 10k. The only way to hit someone that hard is if they have very low resistances and if ur curse crits. The average curse wont hit anywhere near 10k. So if u dont consider backlash a guaranteed huge burst then the same applies for curse. Its not a guaranteed huge burst. And while i dont have a problem with templars having burst potential you cant exactly justify it by saying sorcs can do even more burst. You are comparing apples with oranges. Its two completely different classes. Sorcs are designed to do burst dmg. They dont have a spammable ability, dots or the same defenses with templars. Sorcs need that burst cause they are not going to kill anything without it.

I gave you 4 ways to get around it. CC the Templar, LOS them( LOS doesn't apply to everything, you will be hit twice for full damage anyway if you LOS curse after it is cast), put them on the defensive, or cleanse it. Additionally, there is dodge rolling which can reduce some incoming damage thus reducing the backlash damage and the damage can be entirely avoided if the dodge roll is at the right moment. All of those things above are valid counterplay.

There is much more counterplay involved available with Purifying Light than there is in avoiding burst from a proc build.

And again like i told you curse by itself is not a guaranteed huge burst either. But i still dont see the relevance between the two. Sorcs are designed to do burst. Its their only source to do dmg. They need it otherwise they are not gonna kill anything.
And proctato builds are broken. Thats not an argument to make when u want to defend something.

I never said curse was guaranteed burst. You said that los works on everything. I pointed out that it doesn't work on curse.

Proc builds are valid and run by many ESO players. It is perfectly valid to point out that backlash has much more counter play than those builds. 6 seconds to react is more counter play than most things.

pieratsos · February 2017

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Should the class with the highest healing output, the best group heal, and the cheapest purge have high damage, though? If we gave stam NB a Breath of Life or Major Mending then that would be obviously broken, but we're cool with giving Templar a harder-hitting Curse?

First of all, I would trade Backlash for Curse is a blink of an eye and not think twice about it. Curse can crit and I've gotten 9k curses and I'm not even one of those sorcs that stack 50K+ magicka. Curse explodes faster, can't be blocked, and doesn't require me to do a crapton of damage in 6 seconds to actually get that 9K figure

Second of all, the narrative that templars are somehow uniquely gifted in high self-healing is nonsense. Every halfway decent stam build through vigor and rally will output more self-healing per second than my templar, particularly that very same stam NB you lament about because of its easy access to heal debuffs. Stam sorc Dark Deal is a burst heal which also restores a primary resource. DKs new Dragonblood toy is just as high as BoL and is actually a guaranteed self-heal, and a sorc shield stacking gives them a higher effective health pool than templars. Also Healing Ward is a superior heal to breath of life; it does require a resto staff which is why most templars wont use it in cyrodiil (but the do use it in PvE content such as vet Maelstrom).

What templars can do that the other classes can't is heal others, which is something that many templars couldnt give a hoot about because it is of absolutely zero use in say a 1v1 against say a mDK who will out heal us because of dragonblood, embers, whips, etc., or vs. your typical Rally-Vigor stam dizzy blow spamming proctard.

Since you seem to want templars to be nothing but impotent healbots, that's fine, we'll be healbots. But when you take away templars ability to actually do damage, then fair is fair and take away the vigor+rally combo that accompanies the ridiculous burst damage for stamina, strip away shield stacking on sorcs, revert the Dragonblood back to its uselessness, and dont allow Mageblades to use healing ward.

So you are saying backlash is the only way for templars to do dmg?

Backlash is probably the most effective way we have to deal with permablockers thanks for the blazing spear nerf.

Blazing spear didnt go through block. Luminous is the one that goes through block and thats the way templars are supposed to deal with permablockers even tho luminous is crap and it needs some help. And i cant really see how backlash is going to help you against a permablocker. All ur stored dmg will be blocked so it will never do the full dmg. If anything, blocking is a counter to backlash not the other way around. What backlash gives is burst potential, not a way to counter block.

Awesome, you go ahead and counter backlash by blocking.

And you go ahead and reach the dmg cap in 6 seconds on someone that is permablocking. lol. Is this a joke? Did you even think about it? You do realise that the devs said that this was what they had in mind right? Backlash was designed to give templars burst and the way to counter it is to prevent the stored dmg.

I reach the damage cap or at least a very nice 7-8k hit on people that are blocking all the time. Using it on stam builds and block builds is my favorite use for the skill. You can easily line up a combined nice burst against a blocking target with this skill. Though, there is really no need for me to convince you of anything. So feel free to continue on.

No need to convince me of anything. Just saying that the main point everyone makes when they defend backlash is that u have to do an insane amount of to reach the cap. I guess you just threw that argument out of the window. So its basically a guaranteed unblockable huge burst ability with absolutely no counterplay.

Not quite.

The weakness to purifying light is that the caster has to be on the offensive for it to do decent damage. Meaning, someone has to sit there and let you hit them. A Sorc can curse you, teleport around in a circles spamming shields, and then load a frag and a meteor into you to create burst when the curse explodes. Putting the purifying light user on the defensive, ccing them, cleansing it, or los them will reduce the damage signficantly. The only thing I am saying to you in my previous posts is that it is possible to get a decent purifying light hit against a blocking target.

Cleanse isnt a counterplay unless u are a templar and los is counterplay to everything. If u can do that much dmg on a blocking target it means that u have to do much less on someone who isnt permablocking. So you dont exactly have to be on the offensive all the time. And while i do agree that curse is better it still doesnt hit for over 10k. The only way to hit someone that hard is if they have very low resistances and if ur curse crits. The average curse wont hit anywhere near 10k. So if u dont consider backlash a guaranteed huge burst then the same applies for curse. Its not a guaranteed huge burst. And while i dont have a problem with templars having burst potential you cant exactly justify it by saying sorcs can do even more burst. You are comparing apples with oranges. Its two completely different classes. Sorcs are designed to do burst dmg. They dont have a spammable ability, dots or the same defenses with templars. Sorcs need that burst cause they are not going to kill anything without it.

I gave you 4 ways to get around it. CC the Templar, LOS them( LOS doesn't apply to everything, you will be hit twice for full damage anyway if you LOS curse after it is cast), put them on the defensive, or cleanse it. Additionally, there is dodge rolling which can reduce some incoming damage thus reducing the backlash damage and the damage can be entirely avoided if the dodge roll is at the right moment. All of those things above are valid counterplay.

There is much more counterplay involved available with Purifying Light than there is in avoiding burst from a proc build.

And again like i told you curse by itself is not a guaranteed huge burst either. But i still dont see the relevance between the two. Sorcs are designed to do burst. Its their only source to do dmg. They need it otherwise they are not gonna kill anything.
And proctato builds are broken. Thats not an argument to make when u want to defend something.

I never said curse was guaranteed burst. You said that los works on everything. I pointed out that it doesn't work on curse.

Proc builds are valid and run by many ESO players. It is perfectly valid to point out that backlash has much more counter play than those builds. 6 seconds to react is more counter play than most things.

Proc buils are not an argument to defend any ability. Procs like you said have no counterplay and require no skill. Procs are broken and they still need more work to be balanced. Every single ability in the game is underperforming when u compare it with procs. Thats doesnt mean that they are all balanced. If something is broken u nerf it to bring it in line with other abilities. You dont justify everything else just because procs are broken. This reminds me people defending eots with the argument "well procs are OP so eots should stay OP as well". Procs are not the standard of comparison. Procs are what you try to avoid.

timidobserver · February 2017

Sizaansil wrote: »

That's what I'm talking about :

Because yes "Backlash: This ability and its morphs now deal moderate damage when they are initially applied to the enemy. This damage does not contribute to the copied damage delivered at the end of the ability’s duration" is not working either

Lol this is interesting. I'll have to play around with this, but it doesn't look like a major issue if you have to spam backlash to make it work.

Sizaansil · February 2017

Now let's say you do this : Backlash, Reflective Light, 2 x Puncturing Sweep, reapply Backlash before explosion goes off, same rotation and let the explosion go off. It would be an almost guaranteed 10k explosion. If the guy is tanky or blocking just do a 3rd rotation ^^ on top of it you can even add an Eye of the Storm or a Meteor

@ZOS_GinaBruno

timidobserver · February 2017

Sizaansil wrote: »

Now let's say you do this : Backlash, Reflective Light, 2 x Puncturing Sweep, reapply Backlash before explosion goes off, same rotation and let the explosion go off. It would be an almost guaranteed 10k explosion. If the guy is tanky or blocking just do a 3rd rotation ^^ on top of it you can even add an Eye of the Storm or a Meteor

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Edit:
Nevermind I get it now.

Sizaansil · February 2017

Exactly that

with a guaranteed 10k explosion that requires 2 to 4 rotations if the guy is really really tanky (and on the event of having a decent damage output).

Joy_Division · February 2017

pieratsos wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Should the class with the highest healing output, the best group heal, and the cheapest purge have high damage, though? If we gave stam NB a Breath of Life or Major Mending then that would be obviously broken, but we're cool with giving Templar a harder-hitting Curse?

First of all, I would trade Backlash for Curse is a blink of an eye and not think twice about it. Curse can crit and I've gotten 9k curses and I'm not even one of those sorcs that stack 50K+ magicka. Curse explodes faster, can't be blocked, and doesn't require me to do a crapton of damage in 6 seconds to actually get that 9K figure

Second of all, the narrative that templars are somehow uniquely gifted in high self-healing is nonsense. Every halfway decent stam build through vigor and rally will output more self-healing per second than my templar, particularly that very same stam NB you lament about because of its easy access to heal debuffs. Stam sorc Dark Deal is a burst heal which also restores a primary resource. DKs new Dragonblood toy is just as high as BoL and is actually a guaranteed self-heal, and a sorc shield stacking gives them a higher effective health pool than templars. Also Healing Ward is a superior heal to breath of life; it does require a resto staff which is why most templars wont use it in cyrodiil (but the do use it in PvE content such as vet Maelstrom).

What templars can do that the other classes can't is heal others, which is something that many templars couldnt give a hoot about because it is of absolutely zero use in say a 1v1 against say a mDK who will out heal us because of dragonblood, embers, whips, etc., or vs. your typical Rally-Vigor stam dizzy blow spamming proctard.

Since you seem to want templars to be nothing but impotent healbots, that's fine, we'll be healbots. But when you take away templars ability to actually do damage, then fair is fair and take away the vigor+rally combo that accompanies the ridiculous burst damage for stamina, strip away shield stacking on sorcs, revert the Dragonblood back to its uselessness, and dont allow Mageblades to use healing ward.

So you are saying backlash is the only way for templars to do dmg?

No. I believe I made it quite clear what I did say.

You said "when you take away templars ability to actually do dmg". But no one asked for such thing. Templars without backlash is certainly not the same as sorcs without shields, DKs without a heal etc.

You are correct. My apologies. I was not clear at that point. The person I responded to made this contention:

Should the class with the highest healing output, the best group heal, and the cheapest purge have high damage, though? If we gave stam NB a Breath of Life or Major Mending then that would be obviously broken, but we're cool with giving Templar a harder-hitting Curse?

Note just "high damage," not specifically backlash. That was the point I was responding to. Just because Templars have breath of life does not mean that they have a monopoly on self-healing or have the highest self-heals per second. It's one thing to say stam NBs don't have breath of life, which is true; it's another to ignore the fact that the Rally burst heal is easily available, which then makes the no BoL comment specious. Also, healing is not the only means to sustain survivability, (i.e. shield stacking sorcerers).

So to be consistent, if we are going to take away a templars "high damage," because they are heal-bots, then we need to take away the other classes access to high heals/damage mitigation. Because, apparently, classes are supposed to have damage or heals/survivability and not both.

For the record, I warned ZoS multiple times during the PTS that Backlash was potentially abusable because it is at its core an ability suited for PvE raids . It's a very good healer/support skill in that I can press a button and do 20K+ damage to a raid boss on a non-DPS build. No other skill in the game does this. The original version of the PTS was totally busted. In mind opinion, Zos's adjustments have been fair. I have used this ability a lot since the patch released (and had it used against me) and do not see this anything more threatening than a curse. This ability takes a noticeable effort by a solitary templar to reach that max, which makes it shine more in an Xv1 forma. But it's not like templars weren't already the best class in such a dubious role.

Chuga_Rei · February 2017

With my new build im actually running retribution and dont even bother cleansing backlash a lot of the time(I dont have the stamina to dubzug it either)

Ron_Burgundy_79 · February 2017

pieratsos wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Should the class with the highest healing output, the best group heal, and the cheapest purge have high damage, though? If we gave stam NB a Breath of Life or Major Mending then that would be obviously broken, but we're cool with giving Templar a harder-hitting Curse?

First of all, I would trade Backlash for Curse is a blink of an eye and not think twice about it. Curse can crit and I've gotten 9k curses and I'm not even one of those sorcs that stack 50K+ magicka. Curse explodes faster, can't be blocked, and doesn't require me to do a crapton of damage in 6 seconds to actually get that 9K figure

Second of all, the narrative that templars are somehow uniquely gifted in high self-healing is nonsense. Every halfway decent stam build through vigor and rally will output more self-healing per second than my templar, particularly that very same stam NB you lament about because of its easy access to heal debuffs. Stam sorc Dark Deal is a burst heal which also restores a primary resource. DKs new Dragonblood toy is just as high as BoL and is actually a guaranteed self-heal, and a sorc shield stacking gives them a higher effective health pool than templars. Also Healing Ward is a superior heal to breath of life; it does require a resto staff which is why most templars wont use it in cyrodiil (but the do use it in PvE content such as vet Maelstrom).

What templars can do that the other classes can't is heal others, which is something that many templars couldnt give a hoot about because it is of absolutely zero use in say a 1v1 against say a mDK who will out heal us because of dragonblood, embers, whips, etc., or vs. your typical Rally-Vigor stam dizzy blow spamming proctard.

Since you seem to want templars to be nothing but impotent healbots, that's fine, we'll be healbots. But when you take away templars ability to actually do damage, then fair is fair and take away the vigor+rally combo that accompanies the ridiculous burst damage for stamina, strip away shield stacking on sorcs, revert the Dragonblood back to its uselessness, and dont allow Mageblades to use healing ward.

So you are saying backlash is the only way for templars to do dmg?

No. I believe I made it quite clear what I did say.

You said "when you take away templars ability to actually do dmg". But no one asked for such thing. Templars without backlash is certainly not the same as sorcs without shields, DKs without a heal etc.

Nope, but templars without blazing spear is.

mvffins · February 2017

Sizaansil wrote: »

Exactly that with a guaranteed 10k explosion that requires 2 to 4 rotations if the guy is really really tanky (and on the event of having a decent damage output).

Requires you to be on the offensive longer than 6 seconds though. Compared to one-shot kill NB 2h builds this doesn't really sound that big of an issue. In fact if you were on a Sorc playing with curse or that NB build I was talking about you would get to the point of bursting even quicker in a fight as a templar you described compared to a templar using it properly.

Strider_Roshin · February 2017

Docmandu wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

So the best counter to Templar is to play Templar? Doesn't seem right.

*cough* Cloak -> Mark Target *cough*

Right is not in Wrobel's vocabulary.

This is true if you forget about abilities such as Hurricane, Jabs, and Volatile Armor.

Thankfully for Stamblades like me, I rarely encounter them since they're so underpowered; so I just keep a detection potion on my quick slot wheel for those rare occurrences. The difference between nightblades, and other classes is that we actually have to slot an ability in order to deal with cloak (or use a potion); whereas other classes can merely just buff or attack like they normally would.