Can We All Agree "Bow Builds" Aren't Viable?

Shyfty · February 2017

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

You stood there and didn't help someone with a WB because they were using a bow?

I gave up on my bow builds a long time ago so I get how weak it is..., but for overland pve you need to chill with the judgements.

Incorrect. I didn't help, because they swore out how their bow build was more than okay for handling the boss at hand. I was on my MagDK. They were on I believe a StamNB. I was in the middle of killing the boss (and doing quite well), with the boss at around 70%. I noticed them run over with their bow attacks, and asked in Area Chat what they were doing. I was then told how they got this under control, and it's easy. I told them that what they were doing wasn't too wise, and not viable for putting out the most damage. They then told me how a bow should be every stamina character's main weapon of choice, and how I had no clue of what I'm talking about. So I stopped immediately, and ran off to the side as they proceeded to get ravaged by the boss. Lol.

Essentially waiting to be surprised and proven wrong, although I know realistically that wasn't going to happen.

I think soloing a WB might have more to do with being a MagDK vs a StamNB than the weapon of choice.

Cadbury · February 2017

Isn't this pretty mucn the whole "Elitists are ruining the game" trope in action?

While I don't think certain playstyles are optimal, I don't begrudge those that play how they want provided its not to the detriment of a group.

Overworld stuff? Go nuts, you crazy diamonds

Cherryblossom · February 2017

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

First off, the reason bows are so common at dolmens is because everything dies so quickly that you need to be spamming ranged attacks to get kill credit. Trying to run around finding things to melee is pointless, and almost all stamina builds use a bow back bar anyways.

That said, bow SHOULD be a solid choice as a main weapon for stamina builds, and the only thing holding it back is a proper spammable damage attack. Of course, if attack canceling/weaving was fixed, bow would be fine.

Imo they need to replace magnum shot, or at least one of its morphs, with an instant, full range direct damage attack that can be woven with light or medium attacks to contend with other options for damage. Bow has good dots with poison injection and endless hail, but snipe fails as a spammable.

Can you explain to me why it is a bow and arrow would be a main choice of weaponry for a stamina-oriented build, when you have: Axes, hammers, dual-wielded daggers and swords, and greatswords, and swords and shields? How does that even sound right? Lol. As a backup weapon? Sure. I can see that, and use a bow as my backup weapon of choice for stamina builds. But main weapon? Lol nope.

I met someone a few days ago saying the same thing at a WB with their double bow build. Know what happened? Lol. They kept light attacking the boss with poison injections here and there, and proceeded to get slapped silly. Lmao. I just watched knowing that I was correct, and how what they were attempting to do was futile. But still let them have at it. After getting brutally annihilated about a good 7 to 8 times, he cussed me out and proceeded with leaving. I then proceeded with solo'ing said boss, and collecting my loot. Poor fella. He doesn't get it.

Someone is obviously not well versed in just how deadly bows were on the medieval battlefield.

An axe is great, but good luck swinging it when you get shot full of arrows at fifty yards.

There's no reason a bow shouldn't work as a primary weapon, other than the fact that the bow skill tree lacks the ability for it.

If you are on the battlefield with only a fecking bow, you are a dead man, if I have an axe, I have a shield, I'm also running at you. There is a reason archers stand behind infantry you know! It's not a primary weapon.

Archers were deadly on battlefield due to Barrage, the main work was done by foot soldiers in melee combat.

The battle your thinking about where a few thousand longbow men destroyed armoured knights, was because the Longbow men were behind big walls and it would seem wrapping a french man in metal makes him stupid.

So no its a support weapon, not a primary unless your Robinhood.

JinMori · February 2017

compared to dw? no, not even close, bow is an excellent back bar, but not good for front

Malamar1229 · February 2017

quite frankly theyre smarter than you using a bow on dolmens. You get more exp if you manage to tag all the adds and you cant do that with melee and the fact the adds die so quickly. Tagging the adds with bow and staff light attacks is a quick way to exp leech.

AFrostWolf · February 2017

Bows need to be buffed big time.

Beardimus · February 2017

Not everyone plays for min/max perfection is the thing. Don't let it annoy you unless it personally impacts you.

I run a fun bow build, slight RPG. I HATE hack n slash in games, in fact I nearly didn't get ESO as I thought it would be hack N slash. Luckily i rolled a Sorc main, and love the play style.

I rolled an archer for fun, as a thief, just to mess around then I dropped a Sharp vMSA bow, and two vMSA Sharp axes and a dagger. So what am I to do, gotta give it a whirl right? I know it won't be the best but it's for fun

NeillMcAttack · February 2017

Dolmens, world bosses and dungeons are actually all the places that bow builds can be viable.

What you are actually "irked" by, is less experienced players. That is the definition of elitist I'm sorry to say, especially in regards to the trivial activities you listed. Can you not simply understand that some players play the game very differently and don't care if they are or are not the top DPS in the group? Or know how they would even go about achieving that.

And purposely stopping your DPS or tanking in order to watch some noobs wipe, to prove a point no-one but yourself cared to learn, is not only elitist, It's straight up being a ***.

Ch4mpTW · February 2017

JinMori wrote: »

compared to dw? no, not even close, bow is an excellent back bar, but not good for front

@JinMori That's what I'm saying, but apparently they're completely viable in regards to other people's opinions and experiences for certain content. And I'm okay with that. I'm okay with a difference of opinion, if backed by logic and reason. But as a whole, bows just aren't viable (overall) in PvE content as a main weapon/primary. They're fantastic for secondary use. Absolutely amazing. Maelstrom's Bow's Endless Hail is fantastic, as well as Poison Injection's DOT. In conjunction they work wonders together when paired together with other DOTs and damage laid down with other skills and say DW for an example. But as a main hand weapon, I can't see it. I just can't.

KeiruNicrom · February 2017

The bows at dolmens could be those people leveling their bow bar since dolmens give good exp in short amounts of time

SwimsWithMemes · February 2017

Cherryblossom wrote: »

If you are on the battlefield with only a fecking bow, you are a dead man, if I have an axe, I have a shield, I'm also running at you. There is a reason archers stand behind infantry you know! It's not a primary weapon.

Archers were deadly on battlefield due to Barrage, the main work was done by foot soldiers in melee combat.

The battle your thinking about where a few thousand longbow men destroyed armoured knights, was because the Longbow men were behind big walls and it would seem wrapping a french man in metal makes him stupid.

So no its a support weapon, not a primary unless your Robinhood.

Well, I mean it would be the main weapon of the archers - if your enemy is getting up close to you its not because the bow doesn't work, but because of poor tactics/planning. If your opponent is a knight in heavy armor, use a crossbow or a longbow and punch right through the steel. If your opponent doesn't have a shield and you start at range, I would prefer a bow 99% of the time. It's all about relative strengths.

But for ESO, the bow should be stronger. Spray, Magnum and Snipe should all be changed so they work differently. Let Spray be almost the same, except it has a once-ticking (2second?) DOT and does 3x the damage at close range - bam, spammable, strong, weavable ability. Magnum can stop with the annoying knockback ability and give Empower. Then Snipe can be your massively ranged ability, but with half the damage under 14 metres, and a *** decreased channel.

2Hander should also be changed, let the swing ability (not the WB style ones) deal extra damage if there are more enemies around you overall (or Major mangle?). Give crit rush a 12 second bleed or something.

ADarklore · February 2017

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

compared to dw? no, not even close, bow is an excellent back bar, but not good for front

@JinMori That's what I'm saying, but apparently they're completely viable in regards to other people's opinions and experiences for certain content. And I'm okay with that. I'm okay with a difference of opinion, if backed by logic and reason. But as a whole, bows just aren't viable (overall) in PvE content as a main weapon/primary. They're fantastic for secondary use. Absolutely amazing. Maelstrom's Bow's Endless Hail is fantastic, as well as Poison Injection's DOT. In conjunction they work wonders together when paired together with other DOTs and damage laid down with other skills and say DW for an example. But as a main hand weapon, I can't see it. I just can't.

It's interesting that YOU keep saying this, even when others come in and say that they've had no problems using bow as a main. So perhaps it is just YOU that cannot perform well with bow as primary, perhaps you're too worried about scores and min/maxing to commit to the dedication it takes to become a master of the bow.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · February 2017

I see just as many stick wavers spamming light attack anymore. I don't really think it is a problem with the bow. I think it is a problem with how easy most of the game is.

Ch4mpTW · February 2017

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Dolmens, world bosses and dungeons are actually all the places that bow builds can be viable.

What you are actually "irked" by, is less experienced players. That is the definition of elitist I'm sorry to say, especially in regards to the trivial activities you listed. Can you not simply understand that some players play the game very differently and don't care if they are or are not the top DPS in the group? Or know how they would even go about achieving that.

And purposely stopping your DPS or tanking in order to watch some noobs wipe, to prove a point no-one but yourself cared to learn, is not only elitist, It's straight up being a ***.

Hm... That's a pretty interesting way to evaluate things. I never really looked at it that way, I suppose. Also, I'm as far from an elitist/min-maxer as you can imagine (to a degree). I mean, I prefer a PerSorc to any other type of Sorcerer whether it be PvE or PvP. And it's been like that for as far back as I can mention. I've run Soulshine on my MagPlar, and things like Seducer as well (actually got Flawless Conqueror on my MagPlar with that particular setup). So I'm not so much of a meta guy either. I can assure you of that. Lol. I don't even FOTM, or follow those types of trends (outside of trial environments).

STEVIL · February 2017

I love the logic...

2h/bow is considered good to best at the very least viable stam for PVP.
DW/bow is considered good to best stam at the very least viable for DPS PVE.

Bow/Bow not being just as viable as both of those means... bow is underpowered???

Seems to me that neither of those other two were one weapon double barred either.

Seems to me if you are part of the top or "viable" builds in both PVE and PVP and well regarded in many non-trial PVE due to range flexibility... you might not be my first candidate for a buff.

dday3six · February 2017

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/noss-bo-bo-stamblade-pve-guide/

Nos has been doing well with this build, and iirc has beat Vet Maelstrom with it before.

Generally I agree, but bow builds are sort of in the middle, and quite as low tier as hybrids for example.

DeathlurkZ · February 2017

My first charcter was a pure bow NB wood elf, I made since in Skyrim I was a sneak bow build that would 1 shot everything from stealth, and assumed it would be just as fun in ESO... at level 47 I gave up playing the character for a magplar because it just sucked so bad, not enough heal, not enough dps, not enough sustain.. I wanted to like it so bad, but I couldnt... I like my magplar so much better, more dps, sustain, etc... but less burst. I might do a bow on the back bar for my magplar just for poison injection, endless hail, and bombard for some CC

JinMori · February 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

compared to dw? no, not even close, bow is an excellent back bar, but not good for front

@JinMori That's what I'm saying, but apparently they're completely viable in regards to other people's opinions and experiences for certain content. And I'm okay with that. I'm okay with a difference of opinion, if backed by logic and reason. But as a whole, bows just aren't viable (overall) in PvE content as a main weapon/primary. They're fantastic for secondary use. Absolutely amazing. Maelstrom's Bow's Endless Hail is fantastic, as well as Poison Injection's DOT. In conjunction they work wonders together when paired together with other DOTs and damage laid down with other skills and say DW for an example. But as a main hand weapon, I can't see it. I just can't.

It's interesting that YOU keep saying this, even when others come in and say that they've had no problems using bow as a main. So perhaps it is just YOU that cannot perform well with bow as primary, perhaps you're too worried about scores and min/maxing to commit to the dedication it takes to become a master of the bow.

There are statistics, the statistics say that 0% of the top dps have bow as main bar, because it sucks at it, flurry is much stronger than snipe, it gives more spell and weapon damage, and the passives for dw are better. The fact is that min maxing is basically math, the build that is mathematically better is the build you wanna go with. End of story. facts cannot be changed by preference.

leepalmer95 · February 2017

Bow build dps is viable for 95% of the games pve content, you can put out enough dmg to do everything apart from vet trials pretty much.

That to me makes the 'viable' , are they the best? No, but they are viable.

Cadbury · February 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

I love the logic...

2h/bow is considered good to best at the very least viable stam for PVP.
DW/bow is considered good to best stam at the very least viable for DPS PVE.

Bow/Bow not being just as viable as both of those means... bow is underpowered???

Seems to me that neither of those other two were one weapon double barred either.

Seems to me if you are part of the top or "viable" builds in both PVE and PVP and well regarded in many non-trial PVE due to range flexibility... you might not be my first candidate for a buff.

To be fair, I think this is because bow serves as a good accompaniment to a Dw or 2hnd setup. The other options would be 1hnd/Sh, which is a tank setup, or run DW/2hnd, which might be seen as redundant.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · February 2017

JinMori wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

compared to dw? no, not even close, bow is an excellent back bar, but not good for front

@JinMori That's what I'm saying, but apparently they're completely viable in regards to other people's opinions and experiences for certain content. And I'm okay with that. I'm okay with a difference of opinion, if backed by logic and reason. But as a whole, bows just aren't viable (overall) in PvE content as a main weapon/primary. They're fantastic for secondary use. Absolutely amazing. Maelstrom's Bow's Endless Hail is fantastic, as well as Poison Injection's DOT. In conjunction they work wonders together when paired together with other DOTs and damage laid down with other skills and say DW for an example. But as a main hand weapon, I can't see it. I just can't.

It's interesting that YOU keep saying this, even when others come in and say that they've had no problems using bow as a main. So perhaps it is just YOU that cannot perform well with bow as primary, perhaps you're too worried about scores and min/maxing to commit to the dedication it takes to become a master of the bow.

There are statistics, the statistics say that 0% of the top dps have bow as main bar, because it sucks at it, flurry is much stronger than snipe, it gives more spell and weapon damage, and the passives for dw are better. The fact is that min maxing is basically math, the build that is mathematically better is the build you wanna go with. End of story. facts cannot be changed by preference.

True. But you don't need to be min\maxed to do like 99% of content in this game.

NeillMcAttack · February 2017

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

I see just as many stick wavers spamming light attack anymore. I don't really think it is a problem with the bow. I think it is a problem with how easy most of the game is.

This is a good point. There is nowhere in solo play (bar VMA) that top DPS is even a thought for most players. And I don't blame those dudes that queue as DPS and spam light bow attacks in dungeons. The problem is that in game there is no means of learning what constitutes even a role.

Don't hate the player hate the game systems I guess....

t3hdubzy · February 2017

I destroy faces with my nightblade bow build. Then again i mostly play pvp. When i do dailies i use my bow a considerable amount, but i keep dots up the entire time and can typically draw about 15 to 20k damage per second just in dots without changing weapons or light attacking, procing kena or veil, or relentless focus.

Sheer venom
Poison injection
Caltrops
Damage health with 2 dots

Also never been kicked from a dungeon or trial for running it either and im usually the guy helping others learn the dungeon.

zaria · February 2017

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

I see just as many stick wavers spamming light attack anymore. I don't really think it is a problem with the bow. I think it is a problem with how easy most of the game is.

Don't think I have seen anybody spawning light attack outside of the starting island, exception is some who is out of magic/ stamina at world bosses.
Crystal fragment spawning is far more common, it can be effective against human sized bosses who is stunned by the it but hit hard but nothing you will do in group content.
Guess snipe on bow it the same rolle

Judas Helviaryn · February 2017

Bows are fine. The people who complain about them being underpowered just haven't figured out that every weapon has a niche, application, and role. With the insane plethora of set effects and utility skills at our disposal, there is plenty of room for the archer's playstyle to grow.

Fodore · February 2017

Just stop trying to dictate and let people play the way they want to, not the way you want them to.

mvffins · February 2017

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

@casparian Ouch. If it's not the people who are the archers, it's the 2H Wrecking Blow guys. I have a video of this that I'd love to show you guys, but I'm worried I may have disciplinary actions taken upon me for naming and shaming. Even though I'd only like to use the video as an example of what NOT to do with a 2H in a PvE environment. Granted you shouldn't be using a 2H in PvE regardless, but I digress. People use what they want to.

No 2h or Bow in PvE? Lol so you just hate stamina builds I understand I do too.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · February 2017

zaria wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

I see just as many stick wavers spamming light attack anymore. I don't really think it is a problem with the bow. I think it is a problem with how easy most of the game is.

Don't think I have seen anybody spawning light attack outside of the starting island, exception is some who is out of magic/ stamina at world bosses.
Crystal fragment spawning is far more common, it can be effective against human sized bosses who is stunned by the it but hit hard but nothing you will do in group content.
Guess snipe on bow it the same rolle

I've been through several dungeons with several who did nothing but spam light attack the whole time. But I have bad luck. I also went through a dungeon with CritRush Man. He did nothing but the 2 handed charge attack. Then back up and do it again. Over and over and over....

At some point a part of your soul dies... then a little bit after that you are like we'll let's do this! I never run out of magicka and I'm not doing anything for the next 4 hours of my life!

Ch4mpTW · February 2017

mvffins wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

@casparian Ouch. If it's not the people who are the archers, it's the 2H Wrecking Blow guys. I have a video of this that I'd love to show you guys, but I'm worried I may have disciplinary actions taken upon me for naming and shaming. Even though I'd only like to use the video as an example of what NOT to do with a 2H in a PvE environment. Granted you shouldn't be using a 2H in PvE regardless, but I digress. People use what they want to.

No 2h or Bow in PvE? Lol so you just hate stamina builds I understand I do too.

... Sigh. People just take some things, and run with them. Now supposedly I claimed how bows shouldn't even be used in PvE, even though I've said numerous times that I use a bow (specifically Maelstrom's Bow) upon all of my stamina characters' back bar. As it complements the damage being done on the front bar (dual-wield).

pizzaow · February 2017

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

I also went through a dungeon with CritRush Man. He did nothing but the 2 handed charge attack. Then back up and do it again. Over and over and over....

Please tell me his character name was "CritRush Man".

I'm picturing a tank wearing tormentor, tremorscale with a sharpened malestrom greatsword... crit charging around the room doing 20-25K damage to each enemy hit, then bar swapping to his sword and board with all enemies taunted... although, I'd bet this wasn't the case