Can We All Agree "Bow Builds" Aren't Viable?

Ch4mpTW · February 2017

Guys, can we please just stop with the bow build nonsense? Please? I don't mean to come off as an elitist. I don't mean to come off as a jerk, nor am I trying to tell someone how to play their game (to a degree). But can we please stop with the bow builds in PvE? It's ridiculous.

I'm tired of going to a dolmen, and seeing no lie waves of people DPS dancing while using Bow light attacks. Or joining a random veteran dungeon via group finder to help lend a hand, only to come across another DPS with double bow or bow and 2H. Using the 2H only to heal, and resume casting bow skills and light attacks. It's silly at this point. Dolmen, world boss, dungeon, etc. It's like these dudes are everywhere! Stahp! :c

And what irks me even more...? Is when I try to explain to folks that it isn't that they're using a bow that's bad, as I use a bow on my backbar on stamina-based characters. But that they're building completely around the bow, and expecting high damage. No. It doesn't work that way. Endless Hail. Poison Injection. That's it. You're good. You don't need anymore bow skills. I promise. You're just taking up slots that could be used for better: Damage, sustain, and or utility.

This. Is. NOT. Skyrim. I love Skyrim. I think it's a wonderful game, in regards to it's: Combat system, lore, gear design, crafting system, interaction with the world, etc. Skyrim is great. Yes. An excellent game. But ESO is NOT Skyrim. Just because you can light attack and do all your trick shots in Skyrim to gain easy kills, does not mean it will work on a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT game. /EndRant

Edit: I just don't see why so many damn people gravitate toward bows/sniper-related weaponry for their main weapon choice, especially when looking at things for what they are. It's not just on ESO. It's on Overwatch too. As well as other games that a sniper is playable. "Ermagerd a sniper! I must pick them!" "OMG! A sniper rifle! Let me go and make use of this, even though it's completely impractical for the given situation and environment!" "What!? This game has a means of me to snipe!? Sorry guys, but I'm gonna go snipe. And don't try to tell me otherwise of how to play my game."

Why is it so popular to be an archer/bowman suddenly? On paper it doesn't even seem too logical, as at close range you're screwed. Ugh.

Turelus · February 2017

I'm not sure you can get this community to all agree on anything, ever.

Would be nice for bows to get some love again, although maybe not enough love to bring back the age of snipe spam.

Titansteele · February 2017

I agree, if you want to play using only a bow you are going to struggle which is a royal shame but how do you know they are expecting high damage?

Maybe they are merely enjoying that play style and are having fun with the game doing just that?

TequilaFire · February 2017

I disagree, my bow builds are quite powerful, don't just spam light attacks but weave them to proc bow enchant or poisons.
The light or heavy attack also causes the Hawk Eye passive to increase bow damage by 5% stacking 5 times for 5 seconds.
Lethal Arrow and Poison injection along with arrow barrage combined with caltrops are quite deadly.
It is like anything else correct build and use make the difference.

Dracane · February 2017

They need love as well

They may use up your group slots and steal your loot, maybe even your life. But they want to have it too.
Misunderstood beings.

ZiRM · February 2017

I play the game I purchased the way I want.

Ch4mpTW · February 2017

Dracane wrote: »

They need love as well They may use up your group slots and steal your loot, maybe even your life. But they want to have it too.
Misunderstood beings.

I don't know why, but this made me laugh more than expected. Thanks for cheering me up, after my most recent encounter with a few people living up their archer dreams in Veteran Cradle of Shadows. You sir deserve an awesome.

Lynx7386 · February 2017

First off, the reason bows are so common at dolmens is because everything dies so quickly that you need to be spamming ranged attacks to get kill credit. Trying to run around finding things to melee is pointless, and almost all stamina builds use a bow back bar anyways.

That said, bow SHOULD be a solid choice as a main weapon for stamina builds, and the only thing holding it back is a proper spammable damage attack. Of course, if attack canceling/weaving was fixed, bow would be fine.

Imo they need to replace magnum shot, or at least one of its morphs, with an instant, full range direct damage attack that can be woven with light or medium attacks to contend with other options for damage. Bow has good dots with poison injection and endless hail, but snipe fails as a spammable.

Ch4mpTW · February 2017

Lynx7386 wrote: »

First off, the reason bows are so common at dolmens is because everything dies so quickly that you need to be spamming ranged attacks to get kill credit. Trying to run around finding things to melee is pointless, and almost all stamina builds use a bow back bar anyways.

That said, bow SHOULD be a solid choice as a main weapon for stamina builds, and the only thing holding it back is a proper spammable damage attack. Of course, if attack canceling/weaving was fixed, bow would be fine.

Imo they need to replace magnum shot, or at least one of its morphs, with an instant, full range direct damage attack that can be woven with light or medium attacks to contend with other options for damage. Bow has good dots with poison injection and endless hail, but snipe fails as a spammable.

Can you explain to me why it is a bow and arrow would be a main choice of weaponry for a stamina-oriented build, when you have: Axes, hammers, dual-wielded daggers and swords, and greatswords, and swords and shields? How does that even sound right? Lol. As a backup weapon? Sure. I can see that, and use a bow as my backup weapon of choice for stamina builds. But main weapon? Lol nope.

I met someone a few days ago saying the same thing at a WB with their double bow build. Know what happened? Lol. They kept light attacking the boss with poison injections here and there, and proceeded to get slapped silly. Lmao. I just watched knowing that I was correct, and how what they were attempting to do was futile. But still let them have at it. After getting brutally annihilated about a good 7 to 8 times, he cussed me out and proceeded with leaving. I then proceeded with solo'ing said boss, and collecting my loot. Poor fella. He doesn't get it.

casparian · February 2017

The problem isn't bow builds. Bow builds can be quite viable (like this or this). As your own post highlights, it's the Skyrimized bow gameplay that's the source of the problem.

And it's not limited to bow users, either. I tanked a PUG through Spindle II last night in which both DPS players did nothing but Wrecking Blow spam -> heavy attack spam -> Executioner spam the entire dungeon, and the healer refused to use any skills besides Luminous Shards and Breath of Life (he literally just stood still watching us in his Nordic Bather's Towel when he wasn't casting those). We only made it through because I put Dawnbreaker and a bow on my back bar instead of my regular tanking skills so we could do AOE damage.

Plenty of players out there convinced they're great because they beat Skyrim on Legendary.

Voxicity · February 2017

I agree

Ch4mpTW · February 2017

casparian wrote: »

The problem isn't bow builds. Bow builds can be quite viable (like this or this). As your own post highlights, it's the Skyrimized bow gameplay that's the source of the problem.

And it's not limited to bow users, either. I tanked a PUG through Spindle II last night in which both DPS players did nothing but Wrecking Blow spam -> heavy attack spam -> Executioner spam the entire dungeon, and the healer refused to use any skills besides Luminous Shards and Breath of Life (he literally just stood still watching us in his Nordic Bather's Towel when he wasn't casting those). We only made it through because I put Dawnbreaker and a bow on my back bar instead of my regular tanking skills so we could do AOE damage.

Plenty of players out there convinced they're great because they beat Skyrim on Legendary.

@casparian Ouch. If it's not the people who are the archers, it's the 2H Wrecking Blow guys. I have a video of this that I'd love to show you guys, but I'm worried I may have disciplinary actions taken upon me for naming and shaming. Even though I'd only like to use the video as an example of what NOT to do with a 2H in a PvE environment. Granted you shouldn't be using a 2H in PvE regardless, but I digress. People use what they want to.

OrphanHelgen · February 2017

There is two reasons why bow build doesn't for as pve dps in trials. One is the snipe being a channel skill and slows you down. Other reason is that you gain bonus dmg from being far away, and you wont recieve any group buffs this way. I think a bow NB would be only valid option since they get minor berserk from their skills.

[Deleted User] · February 2017

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Ajaxduo · February 2017

In Vet Dungeon/Trials? Sure, I can agree that it is just pressuring other people into picking up your slack. But the thing is it shouldn't be like that, for casual stuff and normal dungeons it runs fine though. People have already shown that it can do 'okay'. Problem is with the lack of instant ranged spammable and the general lack of love for stamina builds atm.

Lynx7386 · February 2017

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

First off, the reason bows are so common at dolmens is because everything dies so quickly that you need to be spamming ranged attacks to get kill credit. Trying to run around finding things to melee is pointless, and almost all stamina builds use a bow back bar anyways.

That said, bow SHOULD be a solid choice as a main weapon for stamina builds, and the only thing holding it back is a proper spammable damage attack. Of course, if attack canceling/weaving was fixed, bow would be fine.

Imo they need to replace magnum shot, or at least one of its morphs, with an instant, full range direct damage attack that can be woven with light or medium attacks to contend with other options for damage. Bow has good dots with poison injection and endless hail, but snipe fails as a spammable.

Can you explain to me why it is a bow and arrow would be a main choice of weaponry for a stamina-oriented build, when you have: Axes, hammers, dual-wielded daggers and swords, and greatswords, and swords and shields? How does that even sound right? Lol. As a backup weapon? Sure. I can see that, and use a bow as my backup weapon of choice for stamina builds. But main weapon? Lol nope.

I met someone a few days ago saying the same thing at a WB with their double bow build. Know what happened? Lol. They kept light attacking the boss with poison injections here and there, and proceeded to get slapped silly. Lmao. I just watched knowing that I was correct, and how what they were attempting to do was futile. But still let them have at it. After getting brutally annihilated about a good 7 to 8 times, he cussed me out and proceeded with leaving. I then proceeded with solo'ing said boss, and collecting my loot. Poor fella. He doesn't get it.

Someone is obviously not well versed in just how deadly bows were on the medieval battlefield.

An axe is great, but good luck swinging it when you get shot full of arrows at fifty yards.

There's no reason a bow shouldn't work as a primary weapon, other than the fact that the bow skill tree lacks the ability for it.

DRXHarbinger · February 2017

Disagree. Round 2 in vma a bow build is the quickest way to stam sorc / DK it. Just spam injection and instakill everything. Plus less spinning blade damage. Bow build ftw.

Danksta · February 2017

Are you really crying about how people play at dolmens?? That's one of the places it's ok to play as you want because others aren't relying on you. On top of that a heavy attack/poison injection combo is enough to kill a mob. I get it in dungeons it can be annoying, but dolmens? Really!? Overland PvE is where it should be accepted that players can play any way they want.

DenMoria · February 2017

Straight bow? Absolutely. Not workable, but, as an augmentary skill along with other types of traps and weapons, it can be useful.

Shyfty · February 2017

No bows are not bad for dolmens, world bosses, normal and vet dungeons, etc. I'll argue for the viability of the bow for pretty much anything but vet Trials because I haven't done them.I have used a bow as my main weapon since beta and it is not the absolute strongest but it is certainly viable and fun. I can pull 25-29k single target DPS in PVE (without rearming trap) with my bow build which is plenty for any of the content I have done. I can stand toe to toe with many people in PvP without having to gank them.

Just because many people haven't figured out how to maximize the combat system in the game and are familiar with the old Skyrim bow style doesn't mean the bow itself doesn't have potential. I am so tired of the misconception that the bow is useless as a main weapon...

Dalsinthus · February 2017

casparian wrote: »

The problem isn't bow builds. Bow builds can be quite viable (like this or this). As your own post highlights, it's the Skyrimized bow gameplay that's the source of the problem.

And it's not limited to bow users, either. I tanked a PUG through Spindle II last night in which both DPS players did nothing but Wrecking Blow spam -> heavy attack spam -> Executioner spam the entire dungeon, and the healer refused to use any skills besides Luminous Shards and Breath of Life (he literally just stood still watching us in his Nordic Bather's Towel when he wasn't casting those). We only made it through because I put Dawnbreaker and a bow on my back bar instead of my regular tanking skills so we could do AOE damage.

Plenty of players out there convinced they're great because they beat Skyrim on Legendary.

casparian nailed it. Bow and Two hander certainly need some pve love.

To the op's question: no we can't agree. Bow builds are viable for most content, including vet dungeons and vmsa. They are definitely not the best builds available and a bad idea for vet trials, but they are viable for most content. No's build that casparian linked above build pulls nearly 40K dps. Deltia has a sub build of his Specter that also works well. Alcast has a pvp bow gank build - Silencium - that I've used to good effect in pvp.

Cutting the cast time on snipe and reducing its damage slightly would solve a lot of the issues with bow builds. Giving a source of major brutality besides pots and rally would also help.

But the bigger problem is people that light attack spam on end game content and think that they're a dps.

BlackSparrow · February 2017

Bow builds are absolutely viable for PvE. They're just not up to snuff for things where DPS matters, like Trials. If you don't care about being the very best, like no one ever was? A bow-exclusive build works fine.

One of my alts is a bow build. Why? Because that's her character concept, simple as that. I have a lot of fun playing her, bouncing mobs all around inside a hail of arrows. I don't run her in dungeons or PvP, but for solo PvEing? She does just fine, and I have fun with the build. As far as I'm concerned, that's all that matters.

Cadbury · February 2017

I think we should all agree that:

Bow as main: no
Bow on backbar for stam: yes

Also,

2hnd - PvP
DW - PvE

Humatiel · February 2017

We really need to define the term viable, bow is viable for say normal pledges..and in theory normal trials(?). They are going to cap at ~20k or so which is quite low with the power creep being what it is, best to avoid RPing when handling vpledges and vtrials.

DRXHarbinger · February 2017

Also try and go mêlée on wrothgar titan...doesn't happen. Caltrops plus bow build = success there. Horses for course. For playing vmol....gtfo. for some content it's actually quite hard to face tank some WB so bow works an absolute treat.

Ch4mpTW · February 2017

Shyfty wrote: »

No bows are not bad for dolmens, world bosses, normal and vet dungeons, etc. I'll argue for the viability of the bow for pretty much anything but vet Trials because I haven't done them.I have used a bow as my main weapon since beta and it is not the absolute strongest but it is certainly viable and fun. I can pull 22-25k single target DPS in PVE with my bow build which is plenty for any of the content I have done. I can stand toe to toe with many people in PvP without having to gank them.

Just because many people haven't figured out how to maximize the combat system in the game and are familiar with the old Skyrim bow style doesn't mean the bow itself doesn't have potential. I am so tired of the misconception that the bow is useless as a main weapon...

BlackSparrow wrote: »

Bow builds are absolutely viable for PvE. They're just not up to snuff for things where DPS matters, like Trials. If you don't care about being the very best, like no one ever was? A bow-exclusive build works fine.

One of my alts is a bow build. Why? Because that's her character concept, simple as that. I have a lot of fun playing her, bouncing mobs all around inside a hail of arrows. I don't run her in dungeons or PvP, but for solo PvEing? She does just fine, and I have fun with the build. As far as I'm concerned, that's all that matters.

Bow builds are absolutely viable for PvE? With trials being the only exception? Lol. Okay. Go do VICP, VCoS, or VRoM with the 2 Damage Dealers of the group as bowmen. Report to me with the results you find, compared to 2 Damage Dealers as staff users or DW users. Hell maybe even 2H users (if they're not the Uppercut spamming type). Matter of a fact. Not even those dungeons. Go hit up VCoA2 or VCoH2 with 2 archers, and return with your findings. As I'm interested to see how it'll turn out, although I already have an idea of how it will turn out.

What you guys are misunderstanding is that I mean not saying using a bow is 100% useless and garbage. No. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is, it's not viable as the center of your strategy. It's not viable to go about making it your main source of damage.

Skayaq · February 2017

I use bow when doing dolmes on my main because it gives me highest chance to hit as many enemies as possible before they die. When soloing world bosses I use bow and kite the boss around. So no we cannot agree bow build aren't viable.

max_only · February 2017

You stood there and didn't help someone with a WB because they were using a bow?

I gave up on my bow builds a long time ago so I get how weak it is..., but for overland pve you need to chill with the judgements.

Shyfty · February 2017

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Shyfty wrote: »

No bows are not bad for dolmens, world bosses, normal and vet dungeons, etc. I'll argue for the viability of the bow for pretty much anything but vet Trials because I haven't done them.I have used a bow as my main weapon since beta and it is not the absolute strongest but it is certainly viable and fun. I can pull 22-25k single target DPS in PVE with my bow build which is plenty for any of the content I have done. I can stand toe to toe with many people in PvP without having to gank them.

Just because many people haven't figured out how to maximize the combat system in the game and are familiar with the old Skyrim bow style doesn't mean the bow itself doesn't have potential. I am so tired of the misconception that the bow is useless as a main weapon...

BlackSparrow wrote: »

Bow builds are absolutely viable for PvE. They're just not up to snuff for things where DPS matters, like Trials. If you don't care about being the very best, like no one ever was? A bow-exclusive build works fine.

One of my alts is a bow build. Why? Because that's her character concept, simple as that. I have a lot of fun playing her, bouncing mobs all around inside a hail of arrows. I don't run her in dungeons or PvP, but for solo PvEing? She does just fine, and I have fun with the build. As far as I'm concerned, that's all that matters.

Bow builds are absolutely viable for PvE? With trials being the only exception? Lol. Okay. Go do VICP, VCoS, or VRoM with the 2 Damage Dealers of the group as bowmen. Report to me with the results you find, compared to 2 Damage Dealers as staff users or DW users. Hell maybe even 2H users (if they're not the Uppercut spamming type). Matter of a fact. Not even those dungeons. Go hit up VCoA2 or VCoH2 with 2 archers, and return with your findings. As I'm interested to see how it'll turn out, although I already have an idea of how it will turn out.

What you guys are misunderstanding is that I mean not saying using a bow is 100% useless and garbage. No. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is, it's not viable as the center of your strategy. It's not viable to go about making it your main source of damage.

I literally just 2 manned VCoA2 yesterday on my bow build with my friend who is a CP 75 templar healer. Vet dungeons aren't that difficult. Also I've pulled a bunch of new low cp players through VICP on several occasions with the same bow build.

Ch4mpTW · February 2017

max_only wrote: »

You stood there and didn't help someone with a WB because they were using a bow?

I gave up on my bow builds a long time ago so I get how weak it is..., but for overland pve you need to chill with the judgements.

Incorrect. I didn't help, because they swore out how their bow build was more than okay for handling the boss at hand. I was on my MagDK. They were on I believe a StamNB. I was in the middle of killing the boss (and doing quite well), with the boss at around 70%. I noticed them run over with their bow attacks, and asked in Area Chat what they were doing. I was then told how they got this under control, and it's easy. I told them that what they were doing wasn't too wise, and not viable for putting out the most damage. They then told me how a bow should be every stamina character's main weapon of choice, and how I had no clue of what I'm talking about. So I stopped immediately, and ran off to the side as they proceeded to get ravaged by the boss. Lol.

Essentially waiting to be surprised and proven wrong, although I know realistically that wasn't going to happen.

BlackSparrow · February 2017

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Shyfty wrote: »

No bows are not bad for dolmens, world bosses, normal and vet dungeons, etc. I'll argue for the viability of the bow for pretty much anything but vet Trials because I haven't done them.I have used a bow as my main weapon since beta and it is not the absolute strongest but it is certainly viable and fun. I can pull 22-25k single target DPS in PVE with my bow build which is plenty for any of the content I have done. I can stand toe to toe with many people in PvP without having to gank them.

Just because many people haven't figured out how to maximize the combat system in the game and are familiar with the old Skyrim bow style doesn't mean the bow itself doesn't have potential. I am so tired of the misconception that the bow is useless as a main weapon...

BlackSparrow wrote: »

Bow builds are absolutely viable for PvE. They're just not up to snuff for things where DPS matters, like Trials. If you don't care about being the very best, like no one ever was? A bow-exclusive build works fine.

One of my alts is a bow build. Why? Because that's her character concept, simple as that. I have a lot of fun playing her, bouncing mobs all around inside a hail of arrows. I don't run her in dungeons or PvP, but for solo PvEing? She does just fine, and I have fun with the build. As far as I'm concerned, that's all that matters.

Bow builds are absolutely viable for PvE? With trials being the only exception? Lol. Okay. Go do VICP, VCoS, or VRoM with the 2 Damage Dealers of the group as bowmen. Report to me with the results you find, compared to 2 Damage Dealers as staff users or DW users. Hell maybe even 2H users (if they're not the Uppercut spamming type). Matter of a fact. Not even those dungeons. Go hit up VCoA2 or VCoH2 with 2 archers, and return with your findings. As I'm interested to see how it'll turn out, although I already have an idea of how it will turn out.

What you guys are misunderstanding is that I mean not saying using a bow is 100% useless and garbage. No. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is, it's not viable as the center of your strategy. It's not viable to go about making it your main source of damage.

I think the one misunderstanding is you.

Just because a build isn't at the top of the DPS ladder doesn't mean it's not viable as the "center of your strategy" and "main source of damage."

Viable (adjective): capable of working successfully; feasible.

Using a bow-exclusive build is very much feasible, depending on what you want to do with it. I wouldn't take my archer into the vet dungeons you listed, because I don't really like doing vet dungeons in the first place. They're just not my thing. But for normal dungeons, she does just fine. For solo PvE, she does just fine. For everything I want to do in the game, she does just fine.

What you consider "viable" is not what other people consider "viable." For me, it's "Can I solo PvE quest and have fun while not being completely steamrolled?" If the answer is "yes," I consider it viable.

If you are personally inconvenienced by a bow user, feel free to take it up with that individual player. In the meantime, stop judging other people's builds by your own standards of success.