Streamers who went to zenimax

sickboy2808 · February 2017

I was invited but they couldnt meet my demands

anitajoneb17_ESO · February 2017

makeumrage wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

makeumrage wrote: »

So the basic complaint is more average joes or amatuers should be chosen? I think its a much smarter choice to take the people who do it for a profession.

When you plan to purchase a car, do you take advice from independent consumer reviews and specialized press, or from that guy who sells cars of one particular brand ?

Neither, I take advice from my auto shop man. He knows very well what ones hold up, how often he sees certain others and all the ins and outs.

Most people know those independent reviews arent so independent, and that guy is trying to sell something. But your analogy is invalid. Streamers arent salesmen. There more like my auto shop man. They work with the races, builds and characters. They know what works and what doesnt. When it fails and when it wont. What works best for certain situatioms. And yeah, for special things other then free advice they might charge. But information is free.

Heres to hoping everyone got some kinda of compensation for going. Be it crowns or money. Since Deltia helped himself to all the salad.

Some consumer reviews are truly independent, some aren't.
Some "auto shop guys" give reliable advice, some have connections with particular brands and don't give reliable advice.
Streamers are obviously salesmen of their own content, some will provide reliable information, some will be biased towards promoting their content further.

In the end it comes down to trust. I think there are a few people in this panel that I don't trust for giving objective, unbiased feedback, but ZOS trusted them.

PS : and don't be too hard on Deltia. His job requires a LOT of sitting. Salad is the way to go, lots of salad

Idinuse · February 2017

makeumrage wrote: »

They answered alot of your questions on the live stream friday. They played battlegrounds and trials and morrowind and thte dungeon and got to test and play warden. It was said. Also sypher and fengrush said that they really listened to feedback and sometimes they changed things right there on the spot in front of them. I dont remember everything but if your curious go watch the past broadcasts on bethesda's twitch. Pay attention to those dev trackers. They will help you find important announcements and information.

Pity two Templar haters/really no in depth Templars get to wield that power. But I guess the consensus is that the Templar class is dead, long live the Warden Class (along with the dev and streamer favourites).

willlienellson · February 2017

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Im still interested in seeing you answer the question you avoided before - can you put forth an actual list of players who should have been for us all?

Even other posters have pointed out that I answered that before you even asked it in my original post. And then I answered it again directly quoting your question later. And then at least one other poster (maybe two...can't remember) informed you that it had already been answered and called you out on not reading the post you were attacking.

Your defensiveness is matched only by your total obliviousness/disregard of the actual conversation that has taken place.

Jitterbug · February 2017

I've read this whole thread semi-carefully and must admit I can't see what people are getting upset about. Is it that ZOS spent money (out of game budget) to fly people over? Or is it that they didn't fly you in particular over? Or that they only chose people who know a lot about the game? What would be the point in choosing someone who doesn't know the game?
"What do you think of the changes to taunt in Homestead?", "What's a taunt?"
I'm sure (or I'm hoping) that ZOS also spend money on throwing holiday parties for the staff and that they buy the graveyard shift a pizza from time to time. And I hope that they again will invite players from all around the globe to get their opinions.

It's like they can't win. We complain that their QA sucks. Then they get Sypher, Fengrush, and Deltia to do the friggin' QA and we still complain? I have a lot of respect for a lot of the posters in this thread, but I have this little voice in the back of my mind saying "spoiled children".

willlienellson · February 2017

^ did not read carefully at all ^

runagate · February 2017

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

I don't make any money from this game. I do this cause I love it and theory crafting makes me happy. And a lot of those streamers you are angry about think in the same way. And I am a bit confused, who exactly is making people pay 300+ dollars for teaching them things?

I didn't believe it either, but after a bit of research, I found a website where two of the people who were in last week's gathering actually offer and promote 1on1 teaching of the game for 400$. I won't provide names or links because of the "naming-shaming" thing. I guess it is their right to offer such services. And I don't know if they have actual customers for that kind of services. But the offer exists.

The problem is that the game would, in my opinion, benefit greatly from 1) simplification of all this number things 2) narrowing the gap between casual/hardcore or bad/good.

Obviously the feedback provided by those two people is likely to be biased by the need to make their services MORE useful and not less. They would advocate for calculations to be even more complex and the gap between players to be even wider.

That's where there is an obvious conflict of interest and @willlienellson is correct to point it out. It's not about everyone who was there, not even about streamers, but it applies to people offering teaching services for real money.

That being said, I think ZOS knows, and can take the bias into consideration when using the feedback provided. And according to Rich Lambert's recent statements, he's also aware of the necessity to streamline things a bit and to narrow the gap between players.

It's not naming and shaming when it's not something they're ashamed of. It's not like it's a service that's against the TOS that they're keeping on the DL.

Johngo0036 · February 2017

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Banana wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

If the game isn't perfectly balanced when Morrowind goes live, SypherPK is to blame.

and the other ones.

Sypher is the main "face" of ESO streamers, game builds (since Deltia's retirement).

Deltia has NOT retired,

He was also there..

Jitterbug · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

^ did not read carefully at all ^

No, I know. I used the word "semi". And a lot of what I wrote wasn't aimed at you in particular (except the "respect" thing). It's the whole tone of a lot of these posts that sort of gets to me.

Sypher · February 2017

I do training services for cash. What's wrong with that? I only get a few clients who are willing to spend the money and time it takes to practice and get better.

Seriously confused how this was brought up as a point of contention. Please explain? (serious)

willlienellson · February 2017

runagate wrote: »

It's not naming and shaming when it's not something they're ashamed of. It's not like it's a service that's against the TOS that they're keeping on the DL.

I think maybe it's Zos who is ashamed (shrug) but I've already been told that we're not allowed to be more specific.

Rohamad_Ali · February 2017

Sypher wrote: »

I do training services for cash. What's wrong with that? I only get a few clients who are willing to spend the money and time it takes to practice and get better.

Seriously confused how this was brought up as a point of contention. Please explain? (serious)

I'll explain .

You're being trolled .

Johngo0036 · February 2017

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi guys,

First, just to clarify, the event last week wasn't exclusively for streamers. Yes, there were some streamers present, but there were also other content creators, and some that only post on the forums and never show their face. In general, we were looking for theorycrafters, players who know the game inside and out, and those who really get into the math and numbers. We also wanted a good mix of PvP and PvE players, and make sure all platforms were accounted for. All in all, we felt we met these goals.

We invited these players to give us some early feedback specifically on the Warden and battlegrounds. We also had a larger open Q&A about the game in general for a couple hours on their last day. While it's true they are currently under an NDA, they will be able to talk more about their experiences at the studio in just a couple weeks.

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

Surprised they invited Fengrush. Surprised he even went. Last vids I watched of him he was giving them harsh, constructive criticism. Maybe it's a love hate relationship...

Not everyone who was invited give us nothing but glowing reviews. But, like you said, Fengrush does give us constructive criticism, and that's ok. He is extremely knowledgable and passionate about the game, which was what we were looking for.

Lets give credit where credit is due. I think this is a move in the right direction for the game and should have happened a long time ago...

Lets hope that Zenni will use the money and time invested in the best interest of the game....

I love this game and really feel that the future is really bright...

Thanks Zenni and to all those who went to participate.

willlienellson · February 2017

Sypher wrote: »

I do training services for cash. What's wrong with that?

Nothing is wrong with that. But someone who does that shouldn't be included in the balancing decisions for the game.

I'm not sure if you're being serious asking for an explanation, because if you really want to know why we have concerns...it's been described in excruciating detail

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3796774/#Comment_3796774

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3796423/#Comment_3796423

I doubt you'll read either of those posts, so I'll just say this here.

I don't think it's proper for players who make a living from training people to be elite players should be given early access to information and special feedback privileges that will influence the very game variables they are charging people to master.

I don't think ANYONE has a problem with what you guys do. Some of us (a lot actually) have a problem with you being included in an event like just took place because of what you do. It's an important distinction.

arkansas_ESO · February 2017

Idinuse wrote: »

makeumrage wrote: »

They answered alot of your questions on the live stream friday. They played battlegrounds and trials and morrowind and thte dungeon and got to test and play warden. It was said. Also sypher and fengrush said that they really listened to feedback and sometimes they changed things right there on the spot in front of them. I dont remember everything but if your curious go watch the past broadcasts on bethesda's twitch. Pay attention to those dev trackers. They will help you find important announcements and information.

Pity two Templar haters/really no in depth Templars get to wield that power. But I guess the consensus is that the Templar class is dead, long live the Warden Class (along with the dev and streamer favourites).

The new Backlash would like to have a word with you

willlienellson · February 2017

Jitterbug wrote: »

No, I know. I used the word "semi". And a lot of what I wrote wasn't aimed at you in particular (except the "respect" thing). It's the whole tone of a lot of these posts that sort of gets to me.

There has been a whole lot of trolling/baiting/purposefully obtuse reactions to the specific concerns that some of us have had. The tone may be in response to that. Meme spam and troll comments usually invite a poor tone.

If you really care what the issue is, here are two good reference posts.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3796423/#Comment_3796423
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3796774/#Comment_3796774

Gilliamtherogue · February 2017

So from reading this thread I've seen a few things;

1. ZoS is damned if they do something, and damned if they don't. People bash them for staying too quiet, and the second they start improving (which they've improved phenomenally on recently) they say they did it wrong. Sorry, but which one of you saying ZoS chose the wrong group of people, are CEO's, or have any experience running a business?

2. Personal trainers are evil, evil people and how dare they try to make money off their knowledge and passion. Everyone must find a job they hate and complain 24/7. Furthermore, if you're a personal trainer, you can't be a decent human being who wants to help people learn, even if you have countless hours of non profit content helping people learn and enjoy things more.

3. Experienced members of said field are not "proper" for focus groups, despite understanding the field to an almost (or already) professional level. Everything must revolve around the masses, and just because people don't understand said field, it should be designed around making it accessible to them at that level, rather than trying to raise them up to understand.

runagate · February 2017

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

So from reading this thread I've seen a few things;

1. ZoS is damned if they do something, and damned if they don't. People bash them for staying too quiet, and the second they start improving (which they've improved phenomenally on recently) they say they did it wrong. Sorry, but which one of you saying ZoS chose the wrong group of people, are CEO's, or have any experience running a business?

2. Personal trainers are evil, evil people and how dare they try to make money off their knowledge and passion. Everyone must find a job they hate and complain 24/7. Furthermore, if you're a personal trainer, you can't be a decent human being who wants to help people learn, even if you have countless hours of non profit content helping people learn and enjoy things more.

3. Experienced members of said field are not "proper" for focus groups, despite understanding the field to an almost (or already) professional level. Everything must revolve around the masses, and just because people don't understand said field, it should be designed around making it accessible to them at that level, rather than trying to raise them up to understand.

I think it's fair to say that there are only tiny handful of people who care at all in this particular argument.

I'm just freaking glad that they invited people who know wtf they're talking about. It might seem odd to say this but we know this game and what it's like to play it to a degree they simply could not possibly find the time to replicate themselves. Of the people who play this game way too much they seem to have invited many of those most knowledgeable. Kudos.

Rohamad_Ali · February 2017

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

So from reading this thread I've seen a few things;

1. ZoS is damned if they do something, and damned if they don't. People bash them for staying too quiet, and the second they start improving (which they've improved phenomenally on recently) they say they did it wrong. Sorry, but which one of you saying ZoS chose the wrong group of people, are CEO's, or have any experience running a business?

2. Personal trainers are evil, evil people and how dare they try to make money off their knowledge and passion. Everyone must find a job they hate and complain 24/7. Furthermore, if you're a personal trainer, you can't be a decent human being who wants to help people learn, even if you have countless hours of non profit content helping people learn and enjoy things more.

3. Experienced members of said field are not "proper" for focus groups, despite understanding the field to an almost (or already) professional level. Everything must revolve around the masses, and just because people don't understand said field, it should be designed around making it accessible to them at that level, rather than trying to raise them up to understand.

Exactly . We are talking about people , fellow gamers , going to ZoS to give some test group feedback . A real positive step for ZoS . We are not talking about politicians running for office with conflicts of business interest . Lol But to some people it's like that . Perspective . It got lost here somewhere .

willlienellson · February 2017

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

We won't be able to ever(?) talk about specifics and stuff

That's troubling and goes to the heart of my issue.

You guys were privy to information so fundamentally core for how the game functions you can't EVER explain the details.

But some of you guys make a living off of helping people master the game, even charging hundreds of dollars per individual.

At what point does it become PAY TO WIN for people who are granted special inside knowledge of how the game functions and special influence to charge individual players to learn the secrets of the game?

Idinuse · February 2017

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Idinuse wrote: »

makeumrage wrote: »

They answered alot of your questions on the live stream friday. They played battlegrounds and trials and morrowind and thte dungeon and got to test and play warden. It was said. Also sypher and fengrush said that they really listened to feedback and sometimes they changed things right there on the spot in front of them. I dont remember everything but if your curious go watch the past broadcasts on bethesda's twitch. Pay attention to those dev trackers. They will help you find important announcements and information.

Pity two Templar haters/really no in depth Templars get to wield that power. But I guess the consensus is that the Templar class is dead, long live the Warden Class (along with the dev and streamer favourites).

The new Backlash would like to have a word with you

One skill is not enough. It used to be Blinding Flashes, BoL, then RD, now Backlash, while the rest of the classes have a plethora of hard hitting, instant, no cast time, no channel, cheap skills and Ultimates, many of them buffing, debuffing and CC more in one skill than the entire Templar class has in total.

No. The Warden is the new kid on the block, and frankly, if they never touched Templar again, it might well be considered a buff in itself, since at least they will not listen to any more salty tears and nerf it further to the ground.

Only tears to revert changes I've ever seen Zos grant are from Sorcerers. They are lightning fast in meeting the demands of Sorcerers. Such a surprise. 80+ pages of Templars explaining there was no reason to remove the stun from Blazing Spear, and that it in fact is counter simplifying the gameplay, was met with total and utter ignorance. Just as an example.

anitajoneb17_ESO · February 2017

Sypher wrote: »

I do training services for cash. What's wrong with that? I only get a few clients who are willing to spend the money and time it takes to practice and get better.

Seriously confused how this was brought up as a point of contention. Please explain? (serious)

It's been explained already but to sum it up : the fact that you provide training services for cash is likely to make you want the game made more difficult and requiring more expertise and practice. Whereas many of us think the game would benefit from being simplified and the power gap between players to be narrowed.
Another aspect of this is that you get extra knowledge in advance that you can monetize too. Imho that is secondary, but nonetheless true.

ScooberSteve · February 2017

paulsimonps wrote: »

As one of the people that went to Zenimax I just want to remind you and others that we that went are under a strict NDA (a non-disclosure agreement), we can't say anything. So any new info about the game that might have come out of this will be from the devs here on the forums, the main website or on ESO Live.

wow howd you get an invite 4stars? Only reason you put your 2 cents in was to boast.

Sypher · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

I do training services for cash. What's wrong with that?

Nothing is wrong with that. But someone who does that shouldn't be included in the balancing decisions for the game.

I'm not sure if you're being serious asking for an explanation, because if you really want to know why we have concerns...it's been described in excruciating detail

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3796774/#Comment_3796774

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3796423/#Comment_3796423

I doubt you'll read either of those posts, so I'll just say this here.

I don't think it's proper for players who make a living from training people to be elite players should be given early access to information and special feedback privileges that will influence the very game variables they are charging people to master.

I don't think ANYONE has a problem with what you guys do. Some of us (a lot actually) have a problem with you being included in an event like just took place because of what you do. It's an important distinction.

You're assuming bias and motivation based off a source of revenue. I get what you're saying, I just think it's a bit silly and paranoid.

Let's say someone mains Templar. Maybe I don't want them to give feedback on Templar because it's their main and they'll most likely be bias towards the class.

Also, I still fail to see the supposed connection of personal training and how that affects our decision making skills in feedback. I teach players to play the game in whatever current state it is. What scenario results in skewed feedback? As in, what balance decision (example) could be skewed in favor of a personal ESO trainer? (Curios)

At the end of the day, you seem to have your mind made up. All I can say to comfort you is Zenimax is smart enough to filter and prioritize our feedback and I think over all this event was a big success for the game.

runagate · February 2017

Um.. I think it's fair to say that @Gilliamtherogue has a lot more to teach the people who code the game about how one actually applies that knowledge than anything they could possibly teach him. And I think they'd immediately agree with that statement.

You can know how things are coded. Gilliam actually analyzes and reverse engineers that information, which actually make for more accurate information that the intentions of the person who coded it.

Jitterbug · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

Jitterbug wrote: »

No, I know. I used the word "semi". And a lot of what I wrote wasn't aimed at you in particular (except the "respect" thing). It's the whole tone of a lot of these posts that sort of gets to me.

There has been a whole lot of trolling/baiting/purposefully obtuse reactions to the specific concerns that some of us have had. The tone may be in response to that. Meme spam and troll comments usually invite a poor tone.

If you really care what the issue is, here are two good reference posts.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3796423/#Comment_3796423
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3796774/#Comment_3796774

Yeah, I can see how that may merit concern. It does ring a little "scratch-each-other's-backs-y".
But that sort of goes with the territory I think.
A real life example. I'm a guitarist. Not a very good one, but I can play. People pay me the equivalent of $30 pr. hour to teach them how to play like me. My uncle is a very good guitarist with a successful band that sells records, goes on tours, and appears on tv and in magazines. People pay him 10 times as much for a lesson. As they should, he's at least 10 times better than me. I don't get bitter over the fact that the magazines interview him in stead of me; he's famous, and I'm not.

Cherryblossom · February 2017

@willlienellson

it would seem your own irrational hatred of some streamers is clouding your own thinking.

Firstly you do not know what ZOS actually wanted in the meeting, although they have alluded to the fact they wanted people who understood the mechanics of the game and theory crafting.

Streamers that have great many viewers, not only are good at the game, but are also good for the game in the terms of advertising, it actually makes sense to invite these people for two reasons, one they are actually competitive within the game, two it is good PR.

You say they don't represent the community, I would suggest they represent their own viewers, otherwise these people wouldn't regularly follow them. I've watched many of the streamers and have learnt things from them that I'd not been aware of in both PVP and PVE, so from a personal stand point I've learned from them!

You have only come out with one false flag regarding conflict of interest that has already been refuted by a few already.

So I see nothing but an irrational hatred of some streamers as being your argument. yes, I've read all your arguments, I've even agreed with some of your point regarding the game and lack of recognition from ZOS about community concerns, but none of these have anything to do with the meeting, which would seem to be centred around balance and combat, not about general feedback about the game.

anitajoneb17_ESO · February 2017

runagate wrote: »

It's not naming and shaming when it's not something they're ashamed of. It's not like it's a service that's against the TOS that they're keeping on the DL.

Mmmhhh... 'kay.
I hope I won't get into trouble for this. If ZOS supports them I guess it's within TOS and all.

http://thearcaneacademy.com/

This site is made by @Deltia and @Gilliamtherogue , who offer personal training/coaching for cash. Afaik, both were at the meeting.
This situation applies to @Sypher as well (by his own admission). That's 3 people already (out of a panel of +/- 20 ?)

Remember we're not "shaming" you guys, just pointing out the conflict of interest there.

Sypher · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

We won't be able to ever(?) talk about specifics and stuff

That's troubling and goes to the heart of my issue.

You guys were privy to information so fundamentally core for how the game functions you can't EVER explain the details.

But some of you guys make a living off of helping people master the game, even charging hundreds of dollars per individual.

At what point does it become PAY TO WIN for people who are granted special inside knowledge of how the game functions and special influence to charge individual players to learn the secrets of the game?

At no point is it pay to win. PTS is available to the community 40-50 days prior to launch of a new update. Whatever knowledge we gained in those few play sessions (which most likely becomes outdated with changes made from now until launch) is easily gained in the first couple days of PTS.

Gilliamtherogue · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

We won't be able to ever(?) talk about specifics and stuff

That's troubling and goes to the heart of my issue.

You guys were privy to information so fundamentally core for how the game functions you can't EVER explain the details.

But some of you guys make a living off of helping people master the game, even charging hundreds of dollars per individual.

At what point does it become PAY TO WIN for people who have extreme inside knowledge of how the game functions and influence to charge individual players to learn the secrets of the game?

That statement you I made referred to every single word we uttered while there. All of the stuff dealing with the patch will be removed from NDA, once the content goes live. But not everything that was discussed has anything to do with the patch. Some of it was pipe dream talk, some of it was understanding how things work from a business view point. You're taking stabs at the dark and assuming what I mentioned.

The stuff we can't talk about has no bearing on how well a player operates, but is more about secret talk with a developer team of a product. You don't hear about companies having podcasts about what banter goes around at their offices, do you?

It's comments like these that are just so wildly unbelievable. You have literally no clue what was discussed, yet you're sitting here and pointing fingers as if there was some super exclusive discussion about how we're going to all start making a killing off this game. Everyone who attended this event was a human being, who has fun and is passionate about something. Why are you treating them like a corporation who is raking in millions of dollars?