A moral dilemna

ESOUser0x00 · February 2017

You use group finder, get a group and run through the whole dungeon fine until the last boss, where your team can't seem to beat. A team member votes to kick the lowest CP member out and bring in 1 of his guildies as replacement, do you vote yes when that member has already been through almost the entire dungeon?

LadyLavina · February 2017

ESOUser0x00 wrote: »

You use group finder, get a group and run through the whole dungeon fine until the last boss, where your team can't seem to beat. A team member votes to kick the lowest CP member out and bring in 1 of his guildies as replacement, do you vote yes when that member has already been through almost the entire dungeon?

If the lowest cp member has been pinpointed as the weak link that is preventing the completion of the dungeon, then yes absolutely. It would make all the sense in the world.

If the group is simply failing and blaming the lowest cp w/o evidence presented, then no.

Strider_Roshin · February 2017

Would you rather screw over one guy or the entire team? Those are your options.

dbgager · February 2017

That does not seem very nice to me. Is that the only option. Could not one of the members of the group bring in another character of his own that would make the group better able to handle the situation better. Its not just the amount of help that the low CP has provided. You have to consider the time that person has invested.

LordGavus · February 2017

If the low cp guy is the weak link and has been carried through the dungeon, then yes kick is fine.
If you're just looking for someone to blame and hoping a new player will carry the the group, then no.

Not always the low cp though. Yesterday got stuck on a boss, cp250 dps left, got a cp80 replacement, finished the boss on first try.

LadyLavina · February 2017

dbgager wrote: »

That does not seem very nice to me. Is that the only option. Could not one of the members of the group bring in another character that would make the group better able to handle the situation better.

lol okay troll identified. That out of touch nonsense in the other thread and now this.

Well done though, you had me sold on it there for a bit.

ArchMikem · February 2017

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Would you rather screw over one guy or the entire team? Those are your options.

"If I'm going down I'm taking you with me!"

max_only · February 2017

Is it actually the lowest CP person who is the worst though? Are they dying first/most often?

As a player who DOES die first and often (lol) I wouldn't mind if you kicked me. But if you kicked me and I wasn't the worse and someone else (say a dps) is the one standing in red/doesn't know how to drop aggro and they expecting me to BOL them through it, THEN I'd be pissed.

On another note, thanks OP for really thinking about this dilemma and not just being a jerk who judges based on numbers.

Shimmer · February 2017

ESOUser0x00 wrote: »

You use group finder, get a group and run through the whole dungeon fine until the last boss, where your team can't seem to beat. A team member votes to kick the lowest CP member out and bring in 1 of his guildies as replacement, do you vote yes when that member has already been through almost the entire dungeon?

I wouldnt because its not just that one person holding you back, and thats not my style. I would find other ways to suggest things to the people messing up. My group is able to 2 man dungeons so we carry people sometimes. I feel badly for you having to make that decision

It also depends on whats preventing you from beating the boss. Is someone just not getting the mechanics or constantly standing in stupid? Constructive criticism is a good thing sometimes

dbgager · February 2017

LadyLavina wrote: »

dbgager wrote: »

That does not seem very nice to me. Is that the only option. Could not one of the members of the group bring in another character that would make the group better able to handle the situation better.

lol okay troll identified. That out of touch nonsense in the other thread and now this.

Well done though, you had me sold on it there for a bit.

huh..You don't have to be rude to me. Is this not possible. You cannot log out of one character. Login another character and be invited back into the group.

AdamBourke · February 2017

Its not a pleasant experience to be kicked out of a group - and discourages newer players from trying again in the future.

If you specifically say that you are going for a hard-core attempt at a vet dungeon, maybe. But if you are just doing it for fun, just try and make suggestions to how they could play better.

If you are not doing it for fun - be upfront about your goal and requirements.

Think about how annoyed you would be if YOU were kicked at the last boss. Especially if you were doing it for the first time, or trying to get the monster mask.

dbgager · February 2017

Defintelly agree with you Adam.

BigBragg · February 2017

I say get a bigger backpack.

IronCrystal · February 2017

If I am running with friends, I will take the hit and change characters to something we need. (I say take the hit because yes, it will not give completion for pledges).

If its randoms, no mercy. They are out of there if they are clearly not capable of clearing the dungeon.

LordGavus · February 2017

AdamBourke wrote: »

Its not a pleasant experience to be kicked out of a group - and discourages newer players from trying again in the future.

If you specifically say that you are going for a hard-core attempt at a vet dungeon, maybe. But if you are just doing it for fun, just try and make suggestions to how they could play better.

If you are not doing it for fun - be upfront about your goal and requirements.

Think about how annoyed you would be if YOU were kicked at the last boss. Especially if you were doing it for the first time, or trying to get the monster mask.

Well yeah being kicked sucks.
But look at it like this, you've wiped on the final boss 15 times, not getting closer to finishing and there is a clear weak link (constant dying, not following mechanics or taking advice, very low dps).
Your choices are to all leave the dungeon, or to kick the weak player.

I don't like kicking players and have no problem helping players through dungeons, even if that means carrying them. But sometimes you just can't finish.

BlueViolet · February 2017

How do you know it's the low CP person causing it ? I ran a dungeon not long ago with some people, and the max level cp DPS was virtually useless. He ended up disconnecting and we filled the spot with someone who was at 260 cp and ended the last boss quite rapidly.
I would vote no.

It isn't always the low CP that's the issue. I don't know why people keep harping on that.

qsnoopyjr · February 2017

The problem is the DPS gap.

You have people who cannot sustain 15k+ dps... Then you have people who easily do 30k+ dps sustain.
Thats why, to some... World Bosses obliterate them. To others, World Bosses get obliterated.

Zenimax Online Balance team, needs to figure out a new solution, that doesnt make Veteran Dungeons so hard for those of low DPS and not too easy for those who do insane amount of DPS.

Hardly anyone is... In the middle. Once you know how to DPS, your DPS is god. When you dont know how to DPS.. Its crap. Your either God or your Crap.

Zenimax Online Balance team should also look into why some people put out low DPS... Is it gear? Is it bad play of skills? Is it.. Skill swapping thingy, I have no idea how to do this but all I know is, your DPS gets a lot better when you do it. Who knows.

But this is going to continue to be an issue. I dont think balancing skills is the best thing right now, maybe informing the community of how to increase DPS would be the best solution, figure out why the heck people do such *** poor DPS and fix it.

Not only does this affect Veteran Dungeons, this effects AvA as well. You have those people that rush into you, all sudden you see 3 different moves all at once and you die.

Zenimax Online Balance team should make a skill hint, telling you how to increase DPS, like if you use this skill you should couple it with this other skill. These skills work great together. Not everyone goes online and reads up and follows the meta build. You have clueless people that have no idea what the skill swap thingy is, and using terrible skill set, they just dumb period.

Chadak · February 2017

If the lowest CP person is actually the problem, sure.

If they're not? Resolve the actual problem, don't treat CP as meaning more than it does.

TheShadowScout · February 2017

Well, I think the honorable way to do it would be ask the lowbie to leave, but give them something for their efforts. A bribe, from every member who wants them to go... so they don't spend all that effort with nothing to show for it. Consider it a payment for defaulting on the "we'll do this dungeon together" contract...

But only when there really is no other way. Personally I would think it better to help them improve, not penalize them for not being good enough. But that is why I dislike PUGs in the first place... and thus haven't done many dungeons as of yet.

SolarCat02 · February 2017

If the lower level is the weakest link, then yes, voting to kick is probably necessary if the rest of the group intends to finish.

Just be sure that is the weakest link, because that is not always the case.

Random normal today we got Imperial City Prison. My husband and I on level 31s (dps and healer), tank was 45, other dps was CP280 or so. My husband and I know this dungeon fairly well. Our tank needed some practice and some prompting with the mechanics (like tanking the boss with the hoarvers in a corner instead of the center, and not running through the poison circles) but was doing all the important normal dungeon tanking things, holding aggro, spinning the boss, interrupting the big attacks, etc.

The CP280 meanwhile died at least once on every boss fight and quite frequently to adds as well. I can heal that dungeon on veteran with my Dragonknight healer easily, and my lowby Templar with all the same healing skills plus Breath of Life could not keep his health bar from suddenly tanking as if he got hit by a one-shot. He didn't follow any mechanics, took forever to kill anything, and was basically carried through the dungeon by three below-50 characters.

So just make sure you have identified the correct weak link.

qsnoopyjr · February 2017

SolarCat02 wrote: »

If the lower level is the weakest link, then yes, voting to kick is probably necessary if the rest of the group intends to finish.

Just be sure that is the weakest link, because that is not always the case.

Random normal today we got Imperial City Prison. My husband and I on level 31s (dps and healer), tank was 45, other dps was CP280 or so. My husband and I know this dungeon fairly well. Our tank needed some practice and some prompting with the mechanics (like tanking the boss with the hoarvers in a corner instead of the center, and not running through the poison circles) but was doing all the important normal dungeon tanking things, holding aggro, spinning the boss, interrupting the big attacks, etc.

The CP280 meanwhile died at least once on every boss fight and quite frequently to adds as well. I can heal that dungeon on veteran with my Dragonknight healer easily, and my lowby Templar with all the same healing skills plus Breath of Life could not keep his health bar from suddenly tanking as if he got hit by a one-shot. He didn't follow any mechanics, took forever to kill anything, and was basically carried through the dungeon by three below-50 characters.

So just make sure you have identified the correct weak link.

I just commented on a thread, you have some players that are god, and others that are useless.
He probably was trying very hard, but never figured out the combos, how to couple things and get things to proc. He probably feels very useless, but tries very hard. I blame this on the game because I go through a lot of Veteran Dungeons PUGs, and normally we get to final boss and just not enough DPS, always the DPS.

I played healer, I had several boss fights last 15+ minutes and guess what... They do exactly what you said, kick the lowest CP guy, when it should be the DPS that should get removed from group.

When I see the people DPSing, some guys do try very hard, but they try hard and not do it smart. Therefore, doesnt matter and its nothing but a DPS check anyways.

Random Normals should always win with someone 160+ CP or more, very sad to hear you did not complete, especially since that guy was DPS.

Zenimax Online Balance team, no matter how you change the skills, the people that know how to DPS will always be good at DPS, and those that are terrible, will always be terrible, until you educate and put into the game things that make people more aware of their DPS and give hints on how to increase it.

Maybe have people go into some training session when they hit CP 160, and you dont become a CP 160 until you can do a certain amount of DPS and sustain it with training session gear.

Wrecking_Blow_Spam · February 2017

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Well, I think the honorable way to do it would be ask the lowbie to leave, but give them something for their efforts. A bribe, from every member who wants them to go... so they don't spend all that effort with nothing to show for it. Consider it a payment for defaulting on the "we'll do this dungeon together" contract...

But only when there really is no other way. Personally I would think it better to help them improve, not penalize them for not being good enough. But that is why I dislike PUGs in the first place... and thus haven't done many dungeons as of yet.

You have a really fresh attitudes but don't let others limit you.

Dungeons are worth doing, try doing them I'm sure you'll like the stuff you get.

Don't worry about the others, there's always trouble stirrers and such but there's usually not to many.