WRONG FEEDBACK SOURCE Streamers don't represent most players

DenMoria · February 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

Gimme a break. I suppose you think that you represent the majority of the player base. You do not have any more clue than how other people play this game beyond me, Sypher, or the other PvPers you think exploit, cheat, and don't bother fighting each other.

Do you think the majority of people suck or, how did you put it, "rarely utilizing abilities to their maximum effectiveness"?

The very fact that you think the game is balanced toward the top 1% is beyond ridiculous.

Actually, "the majority of people suck or, how did you put it, "rarely utilizing abilities to their maximum effectiveness" would probably be a pretty accurate statement.

I don't disagree with you though.

DenMoria · February 2017

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

I generally trust them to do a good job at whatever it is they are doing.

The great trap is that the 1% have a habit of working only for the 1% instead of a focus on raising the middle to be more competitive with the 1%. If there is only 1% that truly understands how classes should function, then that needs to be translated into a better experience which educates the average user. That seems to fly in the face of convention as who would want to invite a more difficult experience or make it more difficult to be that 1%. As a long time athletics coach I can tell you that those world class athletes I met, who wanted to be the best, always invited the most difficult competitive situation and competitors. If e-sports, etc, wants to be respected as anything other than those who game a game, they must embrace the same attitude. I hope this group will take this approach. I think, from what I've seen, that they have the character to do so.

While true, you realize that they do it because that would mean that they would no longer be the "elite" or the "special ones" and there would be a chance that someone might be better than they are.

Egos are easily bruised and easily broken.

I don't care if they want to consult with the elites myself, I just wish the elites wouldn't treat me like trash just because I'm not nearly, and will never, be or have the time to live up to their standards.

Oh well.

Gandrhulf_Harbard · February 2017

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Im in 5 guilds. All pvp focused and most times the majority of players will be pvping or pve to pvp. These guilds range from 500-50. So from my point of view 90% of the population pvp. Get my point? just because your guild does not engage in pvp as much does not make it representative of the population.

Yeah I understand your point of view.

But I also know that it is a fact that across the MMORPG industry only approx 20% of players PvP.
I know this because about 4 years ago Turbine commissioned a report into just that question to determine if it was worth investing more in PvP, and one of their Community Managers discussed it at length on their Forums.

The report found that across the industry as an average:
Approx 20% of players engage regularly in PvP.
Approx 20% of player engage regularly with "end game raiding" - from my own experience I thought that a little low.
That there was close to 50% crossover between those two groups.
Approx 10% of player engage regularly in some form of Roleplay - from my own experience I thought that a little high.

So End Game Raiders and PvPers COMBINED made up approximately 30% of the average total playerbase of MMORPGs.

All The Best

i would love to see a link to this report please.

The report itself wasn't to my knowledge published, it was "discussed at length" on Turbines forums. The Community Manager in question left Turbine, IIRC, 2 years or so ago.

All The Best

Moglijuana · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Approx 20% of players engage regularly in PvP.
Approx 20% of player engage regularly with "end game raiding" - from my own experience I thought that a little low.
That there was close to 50% crossover between those two groups.

So, would it be fair to say that only TEN PERCENT of players (based on those figures) would engage in grinding "end game raiding" for BIS gear for the purpose of playing PvP with "Meta Builds"?

Uh. No. "Meta Builds" for PvP don't get their gear from end game raids -_______-

Dr.NRG · February 2017

Willi you need to stop man! you are making a fool out of yourself with all these topics and accusations. Plus please stop talking for the community cause you ain't representing us at all. Kinda hypocrite move complaing how streamers do not represent us but trying to do so yourself

Stamden · February 2017

I've said this once and I'll say it again (because for some reason this thread is still going):

Getting feedback from streamers is fine if they also listened to feedback from the community.

However, there are hundreds of pages on the PTS forums that simply go unread. If the devs can't listen to the obvious things that get repeated over and over again on the forums, then inviting streamers is pointless.

It's like a student going out and asking Steven Hawking "what is 2 divided by 2?" You don't need to ask Steven Hawking for this information, literally any math teacher will tell you the solution and even give an explanation.

Dr.NRG · February 2017

there is obviously no other reason than jealousy for this threat. why else would one go so beserk on a topic like this?? FYI this event is not about asking anyone for balance chages or fix, its for top tier gamers to test new stuff and then tell the community what a awsome time they had over there and how nice zos is. thats all!!! So just stop man, please stop with this bs.

willlienellson · February 2017

Moglijuana wrote: »

willlienellson wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Approx 20% of players engage regularly in PvP.
Approx 20% of player engage regularly with "end game raiding" - from my own experience I thought that a little low.
That there was close to 50% crossover between those two groups.

So, would it be fair to say that only TEN PERCENT of players (based on those figures) would engage in grinding "end game raiding" for BIS gear for the purpose of playing PvP with "Meta Builds"?

Uh. No. "Meta Builds" for PvP don't get their gear from end game raids -_______-

Well, I'm including VMA and VDSA in the mix (because I'm quite certain we are talking about the same subset of people) and I'm also quite certain that's very "Meta" for PvP. '0_____0''

Moglijuana · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

willlienellson wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Approx 20% of players engage regularly in PvP.
Approx 20% of player engage regularly with "end game raiding" - from my own experience I thought that a little low.
That there was close to 50% crossover between those two groups.

So, would it be fair to say that only TEN PERCENT of players (based on those figures) would engage in grinding "end game raiding" for BIS gear for the purpose of playing PvP with "Meta Builds"?

Uh. No. "Meta Builds" for PvP don't get their gear from end game raids -_______-

Well, I'm including VMA and VDSA in the mix (because I'm quite certain we are talking about the same subset of people) and I'm also quite certain that's very "Meta" for PvP. '0_____0''

Wrong again. "Meta" builds for PvP are rarely using VMA/DSA weapons now since most people are opting for two 5 piece sets & Monster Set as it yields better resource management & better damage. The Master's Bow/Staves do find their way into specific builds, but they are most certainly not Meta, VMA weapons even less so now.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · February 2017

This thread is simply amazing. I have not jumped into midden heap as of yet or taken a side. Signal to noise ratio seems even lower than usual on these forums but hey, hold my unicorn, here I go.

Here are my pre-fabricated argument options to select from:

[snip]
OP has a legitimate concern that ZOS ignores existing broader feedback channels and focuses on a very narrow margin of feedback sources that suffer from their own inherent biases.
I agree with most of what the streamers say and they are knowledgeable players so the fact that ZOS invited them is a good thing no matter what.
I don't feel that any of the people invited represent me or others like me and and I feel disenfranchised.
Doesn't matter either way, this is all just a marketing move and ZOS will do it's own thing regardless of what advice the people invited give them.
I don't care either way but I'm just here to argue.

This is like looking at the menu of the restaurant you got dragged to because your friends all wanted to go out and you just ate an hour before.

A couple items on that list look alright but nothing is extremely appetizing. I do watch streams occasionally and agree with some of the streamers some of the time. But I also think ZOS pulls quite unevenly from their feedback sources, sometimes in favor of the most popular voices and sometimes quite the opposite. Option #5 does appeal to my pessimistic side but I would hope that at least one of the things I agree with was mentioned to ZOS during this trip and it was well received.

I guess it really depends on what ZOS actually showed the people invited and how much time they allotted for feedback.

Was it "Here's what we are planning, now go fourth and tell your fans how amazing it is but don't tell them specifics(NDA) so we keep this hype train going"

or was it "This is what we are thinking of doing, here is what we have so far, what are your thoughts and concerns at this point?"

ZOS historically does more of the former than the latter. When ever they present something, even in early beta, it is always feels fait accompli. It will be telling how restrictive they make the NDA and how forthcoming the people invited can be about their experience.
[edited for baiting]

Elsonso · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

I do not know whether they brought anyone in for One Tamriel, or Homestead, but in the case of the latter, if they did not do that, they should have done that. Homestead is a massive amount of investment, and I still feel that it missed the mark. It is too niche for the amount of effort they put into it.

And in the PTS everyone was screaming that Homestead missed the mark, while Deltia was "geeking out" over housing on his youtube. His words. Not mine.

And almost all the feedback on the PTS was ignored....and has now been mirrored as complaint threads by the general player base. And now Deltia is at Zos HQ helping form the direction of future content

Don't get confused between liking the direction a product went, and directing where the product went.

There is a market for Homestead, and there are people out there who like it. I think that ZOS and Bethesda feel that there are enough people to justify the effort. Deltia is one of those people who likes what ZOS has done, not the other way around. I think there are more people who would like it if they had spent more time working on it and rolled it up into Morrowind. (Which would have caused anger because of no 1Q Update)

From a development perspective, we are in the final days of Morrowind development. We are on final approach. The avalanche has started. The timer is running out. The big decisions have already been made. This focus group is providing input that ZOS will examine and toy with over the next couple of weeks, not to do as directed, but to validate whatever input they got from these people, decide whether they need to make any changes, decide what those changes would be, decide whether there is time to do anything, and if so, plan and schedule them, and then implement them. If we are lucky, test them. If these people were to have any significant influence on the game, they needed to be at ZOS last summer or fall.

Personally, if I ever attended one of these things, I would not let anyone know, and I would deny it if anyone found out. This thread is giving waaaaaay too much influence to these people. ZOS is going to do stuff people do not like, and the people in this focus group are going to get blamed for corrupting ZOS with bad ideas. In truth, it is all ZOS, it always was ZOS, and it always will be ZOS. I don't believe that these people have the influence being attributed to them. It is simply too late in development.

Nerouyn · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

Apparently, right now, a select elite of ESO youtubers like Sypher and Deltia, etc are meeting in person with Zenimax after being invited to the headquarters.

I wonder if Princess Bitter Poor People a member of the inner court?

That aside, this strikes me as fundamentally incestuous but entirely normal business practice. ZO give them something. Even just being invited to HQ is something. The streamers provide positive coverage and perhaps direct focus away from hotbutton issues like.... housing without storage.

willlienellson · February 2017

Paraflex wrote: »

I'd imagine you have offended every person who went to this meeting in Baltimore.

Oh, the humanity!

LiquidSchwartz · February 2017

I utterly disagree. Sypher posted a video asking his viewers to tell him what we wanted to convey to the developers. Not only that, but just because they're better at the game doesn't mean they don't experience players cheating. Do you watch every stream the entire time it is happening? FENGRUSH has a video on youtube about cheaters back when the cheat engine was working and people could fly and drop infinite meteors. You just got upset because you're not being invited to give input for the game when people who play this game for a living are. They know more about the game than the average player. You have no idea what they are testing. Stop complaining for the sake of complaining. If some change happens because of them that offends you (which I'm sure will happen, then you can take up your angry posts about how we aren't represented properly.
I don't mean to sound kinda aggressive, but I'm so tired of people ragging on ZoS the past couple weeks since Morrowind was announced.

Hammy01 · February 2017

One positive thing we can draw from this.. when these youtubers / streamers get back from their vacation testing / playing with the new toys at ZOS, we will get an idea if the content is going to be any good. They have an NDA and can't speak about anything but they won't be able to hide their emotions... so if those invited have an uncontrollable excitement and eagerness to play non stop then we know the upcoming content might be pretty good. On the other hand if those invited have lost all desire to even log in and just go through the emotions of getting a paycheck then maybe we all need to worry!!

willlienellson · February 2017

Hammy01 wrote: »

so if those invited have an uncontrollable excitement and eagerness to play non stop then we know the upcoming content might be pretty good.

See my reply somewhere in the last 2 pages about Deltia's enthusiasm over Homestead and how it contrasts with most player feedback.

hamgatan · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

Hammy01 wrote: »

so if those invited have an uncontrollable excitement and eagerness to play non stop then we know the upcoming content might be pretty good.

See my reply somewhere in the last 2 pages about Deltia's enthusiasm over Homestead and how it contrasts with most player feedback.

Deltia is always right 100% of the time...

.... and DC do not zerg...

... hashtag #alternativefacts

I would take that enthusiasm with a pinch of salt. Deltia has been known to be wrong in the past.. ive called him out on inadequate or misinformation before..

Celas_Dranacea · February 2017

I more or less trust these streamers to represent my interests as a pvper who wants class balance. I don't agree with all of their attitudes/positions on certain things but overall they seem like fine people who do a lot of research and hear a lot from the community. I appreciate all of em.

My instinct is that their primary concern this week has been to do a good job in the things their testing, not somehow exploit the average player - after all they're gonna come back and have to face the community if future balance updates suck

And yes, in addition to feedback it is also about advertising and keeping them happy as streamers who promote the game. Who cares? Super normal business stuff.

Celas_Dranacea · February 2017

Also I constantly here ZOS referencing the data they collect about combat stats, morph bias, etc... and have personally witnessed a lot of changes based on various forms of feedback in game and on the forums so I'm super happy that they are taking time to get this additional form of feedback.

idk · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Wrong again. "Meta" builds for PvP are rarely using VMA/DSA weapons now since most people are opting for two 5 piece sets & Monster Set as it yields better resource management & better damage. The Master's Bow/Staves do find their way into specific builds, but they are most certainly not Meta, VMA weapons even less so now.

[snip]

To the point you said you were replying to, a high number of end game raiders do PvP. All tanks and healers must have AvA skills, most importantly War Horn. Serious stam DPS (though not many competitively raid stam ATM) kinda need Vigor and some other dps builds use AvA skills as well. A good number have Emperor on at least one character.

Some heavy PvP players are also serious raiders including many you seem to not like being invited to Zos, but also many others. Basically, the more serious someone is about their ESO game the more they do.

willlienellson wrote: »

since most people are opting for two 5 piece sets & Monster Set

Right. Cause everyone is running 12 pieces. Almost nobody runs 2H or staff in Cyrodiil. face/palm

Not entirely true. Mag sorcs pretty much have to run staves, they have little to use that would work well not running staves. There are good templars, NB and DK builds with staves. Ofc some have staves on one bar and something else on the other, especially 1H&S.

There are a number of good builds across the board for PvP though PvE magika users mostly use staves. Only one class uses swords for good dps PvE wise but often have a staff on the other bar.
[edited to remove quote]

Dredlord · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

jpeter88 wrote: »

sypher hands down knows PvP

Furthermore, suggesting that Sypher should have extra influence with Zos' balancing because he is great at pvp is ludicrous. It's like suggesting whoever hits the most home runs should get invited to MLB headquarters to make the rules for next season.

This absolutely right and gw2 proved this beyond a doubt when they hired one of the best gw players to develop gw2.

Player skill =/= good developer

Elsonso · February 2017

Dredlord wrote: »

willlienellson wrote: »

jpeter88 wrote: »

sypher hands down knows PvP

Furthermore, suggesting that Sypher should have extra influence with Zos' balancing because he is great at pvp is ludicrous. It's like suggesting whoever hits the most home runs should get invited to MLB headquarters to make the rules for next season.

This absolutely right and gw2 proved this beyond a doubt when they hired one of the best gw players to develop gw2.

Player skill =/= good developer

And yet, when it comes to the ZOS developers, we seem to hear a different story. They don't play their own game. They aren't good at playing the game. The implication often being that they should not be developing it because they aren't good at playing it.

These people are not traveling to ZOS HQ because they are good developers. They aren't going there to be developers, at all. They are going there to be players.

Edit: Don't forget that players that do theory crafting are doing a player activity, not a developer activity.

Isellskooma · February 2017

Karius_Imalthar wrote: »

I can't speak on everything the OP wrote but I do feel that a lot of companies like ZOS listen to the streamers who do not speak for average players and don't necessarily have the same experiences/frustrations as average players.

That good that they're starting to listen to streamers, average/casual players have done nothing but ruin this game.

cbaudersub17_ESO · February 2017

Isellskooma wrote: »

That good that they're starting to listen to streamers, average/casual players have done nothing but ruin this game.

When was the summit with the average/casual players?

cbaudersub17_ESO · February 2017

Access does bring opportunity for influence. If this is more than a marketing ploy, I would hope sources for developmental feedback would be broad and inclusive. Answering questions like ‘who plays our game?’ and ‘who do we want playing our game?’ would seem to be important when digesting said feedback.

After all, I personally would not limit myself to feedback from professional racecar drivers on my design for a family car. Point of fact, I might ignore their feedback on my grocery-getter…but I might take a picture with them in it for later release.

leepalmer95 · February 2017

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Isellskooma wrote: »

That good that they're starting to listen to streamers, average/casual players have done nothing but ruin this game.

When was the summit with the average/casual players?

This forum is basically full of average/ casual players.

Some of the thread here amuse me.

hamgatan · February 2017

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

I more or less trust these streamers to represent my interests as a pvper who wants class balance.

class balance isn't even the major issue bugging PvP. before they sort that, they need to sort alliance imbalance before even tampering with that.

it doesn't matter how OP your build is, if you are getting steamrolled by a 40 player Zerg you are not going to survive.. plain and simple. the map in TF was a clear example of the imbalance last night - nothing but DC zergs everywhere, and very few players of other alliances. You could be a former Emp, but that doesn't make a difference if 40 mindless aoe spamming zerglings are mashing keys. there needs to be a hard cap on the amount of players allowed in contrast to other alliances.

currently its a static value that defines x amount of players of each alliance can access the campaign. that value needs to change and be a constantly calculated variable based on if statements.. for example as a logical workflow

action: OnCampaignJoinRequest
-> Are there available slots on static max server capacity? (IF Statement 1) ->
NO? - Join Queue
YES? (If Statement 2, if statement 1 is "true") THEN,
IF Current Alliance = DC then Calculate variable "Mean" [var2 (EP Player Count) + var3 (AD Player Count) / 2 = var4 (Resultant Population currently).
IF var CurrentAlliancePopulation = > var4 + 10% THEN
Join Queue.
IF var CurrentAlliancePopulation = < var4 + 10% THEN
AllowAccess

What that would do hopefully is have a constantly variable restriction on the amount of players that can join a campaign to no more than 10% of the mean of players of the other two alliances combined, so if theres 150 AD Players on, and 130 EP Players on, that would mean there could be no more than 154 DC on at any one time and players will queue like they do currently with the static values.

Yes there will still be Zergs, but other alliances will at least have a fighting chance and not be steamrolled by over-imbalances because 90% of a server at any one time is one alliance.

And also it will curtail the cheating for Emp thats been going on (i.e. the paid "real world dollars" services that are out there - i'm not going into detail about that because of T.O.S).

Dredlord · February 2017

lordrichter wrote: »

Dredlord wrote: »

willlienellson wrote: »

jpeter88 wrote: »

sypher hands down knows PvP

Furthermore, suggesting that Sypher should have extra influence with Zos' balancing because he is great at pvp is ludicrous. It's like suggesting whoever hits the most home runs should get invited to MLB headquarters to make the rules for next season.

This absolutely right and gw2 proved this beyond a doubt when they hired one of the best gw players to develop gw2.

Player skill =/= good developer

And yet, when it comes to the ZOS developers, we seem to hear a different story. They don't play their own game. They aren't good at playing the game. The implication often being that they should not be developing it because they aren't good at playing it.

These people are not traveling to ZOS HQ because they are good developers. They aren't going there to be developers, at all. They are going there to be players.

Edit: Don't forget that players that do theory crafting are doing a player activity, not a developer activity.

Your edit is so ignorant it's surprising, theory crafting is first and foremost a developer activity, without it there would be no game systems to even code.

Player theorycrafting merely tries to guess how their build will interact with those systems.

And to be clear those going to visit ZOS are going there to be advertising for the game. That is why they chose who they did...

thankyourat · February 2017

So what I'm getting from this thread is that some players are scared streamers will get rid of some of the casual friendly mechanics and actually make the game more skill base thus making it to where casual players won't be able to complete content or compete in PvP anymore. But wouldn't that be a good thing there should be more separation between good and average players. And even playing casually eventually you will be able to compete the content, honestly that sounds better for everyone it would add a sense of accomplishment to the game that's been missing for awhile now.

Balamoor · February 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Isellskooma wrote: »

That good that they're starting to listen to streamers, average/casual players have done nothing but ruin this game.

When was the summit with the average/casual players?

This forum is basically full of average/ casual players.

Some of the thread here amuse me.

So average/casual players constantly spew toxic opinionated crap and stomp their feet when they don't feel constantly validated?

PLEASE TEACH ME NOT TO BE CASUAL!!!!!!!!!!!!