WRONG FEEDBACK SOURCE Streamers don't represent most players

bowmanz607 · February 2017

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

that way it has been publicized? it is the community on the forums, specifically this thread, that are trying to make it look bad. Additionally, you are still basing your premise that they dont listen to players and still seem to think the forums are the end all be all for community feedback. Both are wrong.

your argument is that game gets better, but it got better from the wrong people, so people will leave b/c of that? if the game is better why would people leave? Because they yelled on the forum about something and they didnt get the change they wanted???

Well because significantly less than 50% of total players even bother with PvP.
So what improvement there is means absolutely NOTHING to the majority of the playerbase.

Because the Official Forums to the game damn well SHOULD BE the be all and end all for community feedback.
I work in customer service in the live entertainment industry - if a customer has an issue with anything my employer sells they come to me. They DON'T go to the coffee shop three doors down the street.

Yes some players will leave because they didn't get the changes they wanted - in fact this thread is full of people claiming lots of players left because ZeniMax spent too much time listening to "casuals" instead of the "elite" - you can't have that point both ways.

Paying customers can be expected to take their money elsewhere any time they feel they are not being respected or valued by the company they are spending money with.

I can't think of a better way to make the majority of paying customers feel undervalued and disrespected than by saying "screw you - we only want a few people's opinions, and we want them so badly we will pay for them to have a jolly at our HQ to tell us their opinions" - can you?

All The Best

you dont know how many people ply pvp. you dont know the percentages. you are guessing. stop it.

See, I knew you were going to ONLY focus on that point - that was why I put it in. You and I both know FOR A FACT that less than 50% of players regularly engage in PvP. Heck I am in a guild of over 120 players and less than 20 of them regularly PvP.

How about you address some of the other points - if you can.

All The Best

ya ofcourse i focused on that. Everything else you talked about I already stated my opinion on. In fact, much of what you had to say was a response to what I said.

Im in 5 guilds. All pvp focused and most times the majority of players will be pvping or pve to pvp. These guilds range from 500-50. So from my point of view 90% of the population pvp. Get my point? just because your guild does not engage in pvp as much does not make it representative of the population.

you also have to account for the players that stop pvp or dont pvp as much because of the zerg fest they want to see fixed.

contrary to what you think the forums SHOULD be, it is merely a small portion of the community. IN fact, it is a well established principle that people are quick to write reviews and talk crap about a bad experience, then they are about good ones. they are usually just playing the game they enjoy. there are many more outlets to voice opinions. stream, youtube, reddit, in game, email, zos meetings with guilds etc.

Gandrhulf_Harbard · February 2017

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Im in 5 guilds. All pvp focused and most times the majority of players will be pvping or pve to pvp. These guilds range from 500-50. So from my point of view 90% of the population pvp. Get my point? just because your guild does not engage in pvp as much does not make it representative of the population.

Yeah I understand your point of view.

But I also know that it is a fact that across the MMORPG industry only approx 20% of players PvP.
I know this because about 4 years ago Turbine commissioned a report into just that question to determine if it was worth investing more in PvP, and one of their Community Managers discussed it at length on their Forums.

The report found that across the industry as an average:
Approx 20% of players engage regularly in PvP.
Approx 20% of player engage regularly with "end game raiding" - from my own experience I thought that a little low.
That there was close to 50% crossover between those two groups.
Approx 10% of player engage regularly in some form of Roleplay - from my own experience I thought that a little high.

So End Game Raiders and PvPers COMBINED made up approximately 30% of the average total playerbase of MMORPGs.

All The Best

[Deleted User] · February 2017

The user and all related content has been deleted.

bowmanz607 · February 2017

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Im in 5 guilds. All pvp focused and most times the majority of players will be pvping or pve to pvp. These guilds range from 500-50. So from my point of view 90% of the population pvp. Get my point? just because your guild does not engage in pvp as much does not make it representative of the population.

Yeah I understand your point of view.

But I also know that it is a fact that across the MMORPG industry only approx 20% of players PvP.
I know this because about 4 years ago Turbine commissioned a report into just that question to determine if it was worth investing more in PvP, and one of their Community Managers discussed it at length on their Forums.

The report found that across the industry as an average:
Approx 20% of players engage regularly in PvP.
Approx 20% of player engage regularly with "end game raiding" - from my own experience I thought that a little low.
That there was close to 50% crossover between those two groups.
Approx 10% of player engage regularly in some form of Roleplay - from my own experience I thought that a little high.

So End Game Raiders and PvPers COMBINED made up approximately 30% of the average total playerbase of MMORPGs.

All The Best

i would love to see a link to this report please.

willlienellson · February 2017

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Approx 20% of players engage regularly in PvP.
Approx 20% of player engage regularly with "end game raiding" - from my own experience I thought that a little low.
That there was close to 50% crossover between those two groups.

So, would it be fair to say that only TEN PERCENT of players (based on those figures) would engage in grinding "end game raiding" for BIS gear for the purpose of playing PvP with "Meta Builds"?

idk · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Approx 20% of players engage regularly in PvP.
Approx 20% of player engage regularly with "end game raiding" - from my own experience I thought that a little low.
That there was close to 50% crossover between those two groups.

So, would it be fair to say that only TEN PERCENT of players (based on those figures) would engage in grinding "end game raiding" for BIS gear for the purpose of playing PvP with "Meta Builds"?

Probably not in the way you worded it and probably not 10% of player base would go full meta for PvP if only 20% engage in PvP to begin with.

Gandrhulf_Harbard · February 2017

Spectral_Lord wrote: »

A 4 year old report is not accurate.

Its a LOT more accurate than a guestimate based on a small circle of guildmates.

All The Best

DenMoria · February 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

Gimme a break. I suppose you think that you represent the majority of the player base. You do not have any more clue than how other people play this game beyond me, Sypher, or the other PvPers you think exploit, cheat, and don't bother fighting each other.

Do you think the majority of people suck or, how did you put it, "rarely utilizing abilities to their maximum effectiveness"?

The very fact that you think the game is balanced toward the top 1% is beyond ridiculous.

Actually, "the majority of people suck or, how did you put it, "rarely utilizing abilities to their maximum effectiveness" would probably be a pretty accurate statement.

I don't disagree with you though.

DenMoria · February 2017

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

I generally trust them to do a good job at whatever it is they are doing.

The great trap is that the 1% have a habit of working only for the 1% instead of a focus on raising the middle to be more competitive with the 1%. If there is only 1% that truly understands how classes should function, then that needs to be translated into a better experience which educates the average user. That seems to fly in the face of convention as who would want to invite a more difficult experience or make it more difficult to be that 1%. As a long time athletics coach I can tell you that those world class athletes I met, who wanted to be the best, always invited the most difficult competitive situation and competitors. If e-sports, etc, wants to be respected as anything other than those who game a game, they must embrace the same attitude. I hope this group will take this approach. I think, from what I've seen, that they have the character to do so.

While true, you realize that they do it because that would mean that they would no longer be the "elite" or the "special ones" and there would be a chance that someone might be better than they are.

Egos are easily bruised and easily broken.

I don't care if they want to consult with the elites myself, I just wish the elites wouldn't treat me like trash just because I'm not nearly, and will never, be or have the time to live up to their standards.

Oh well.

Gandrhulf_Harbard · February 2017

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Im in 5 guilds. All pvp focused and most times the majority of players will be pvping or pve to pvp. These guilds range from 500-50. So from my point of view 90% of the population pvp. Get my point? just because your guild does not engage in pvp as much does not make it representative of the population.

Yeah I understand your point of view.

But I also know that it is a fact that across the MMORPG industry only approx 20% of players PvP.
I know this because about 4 years ago Turbine commissioned a report into just that question to determine if it was worth investing more in PvP, and one of their Community Managers discussed it at length on their Forums.

The report found that across the industry as an average:
Approx 20% of players engage regularly in PvP.
Approx 20% of player engage regularly with "end game raiding" - from my own experience I thought that a little low.
That there was close to 50% crossover between those two groups.
Approx 10% of player engage regularly in some form of Roleplay - from my own experience I thought that a little high.

So End Game Raiders and PvPers COMBINED made up approximately 30% of the average total playerbase of MMORPGs.

All The Best

i would love to see a link to this report please.

The report itself wasn't to my knowledge published, it was "discussed at length" on Turbines forums. The Community Manager in question left Turbine, IIRC, 2 years or so ago.

All The Best

Moglijuana · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Approx 20% of players engage regularly in PvP.
Approx 20% of player engage regularly with "end game raiding" - from my own experience I thought that a little low.
That there was close to 50% crossover between those two groups.

So, would it be fair to say that only TEN PERCENT of players (based on those figures) would engage in grinding "end game raiding" for BIS gear for the purpose of playing PvP with "Meta Builds"?

Uh. No. "Meta Builds" for PvP don't get their gear from end game raids -_______-

Dr.NRG · February 2017

Willi you need to stop man! you are making a fool out of yourself with all these topics and accusations. Plus please stop talking for the community cause you ain't representing us at all. Kinda hypocrite move complaing how streamers do not represent us but trying to do so yourself

Stamden · February 2017

I've said this once and I'll say it again (because for some reason this thread is still going):

Getting feedback from streamers is fine if they also listened to feedback from the community.

However, there are hundreds of pages on the PTS forums that simply go unread. If the devs can't listen to the obvious things that get repeated over and over again on the forums, then inviting streamers is pointless.

It's like a student going out and asking Steven Hawking "what is 2 divided by 2?" You don't need to ask Steven Hawking for this information, literally any math teacher will tell you the solution and even give an explanation.

Dr.NRG · February 2017

there is obviously no other reason than jealousy for this threat. why else would one go so beserk on a topic like this?? FYI this event is not about asking anyone for balance chages or fix, its for top tier gamers to test new stuff and then tell the community what a awsome time they had over there and how nice zos is. thats all!!! So just stop man, please stop with this bs.

willlienellson · February 2017

Moglijuana wrote: »

willlienellson wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Approx 20% of players engage regularly in PvP.
Approx 20% of player engage regularly with "end game raiding" - from my own experience I thought that a little low.
That there was close to 50% crossover between those two groups.

So, would it be fair to say that only TEN PERCENT of players (based on those figures) would engage in grinding "end game raiding" for BIS gear for the purpose of playing PvP with "Meta Builds"?

Uh. No. "Meta Builds" for PvP don't get their gear from end game raids -_______-

Well, I'm including VMA and VDSA in the mix (because I'm quite certain we are talking about the same subset of people) and I'm also quite certain that's very "Meta" for PvP. '0_____0''

willlienellson · February 2017

Dr.NRG wrote: »

there is obviously no other reason than jealousy for this threat. why else would one go so beserk on a topic like this?? FYI this event is not about asking anyone for balance chages or fix, its for top tier gamers to test new stuff and then tell the community what a awsome time they had over there and how nice zos is. thats all!!! So just stop man, please stop with this bs.

Your post inspired me to bump this thread. But I am sorry you feel threatened.

FYI, you also posted almost the exact same comment 2 posts ago, 17 minutes prior.

If you people want the thread to go away, you might stop doing that. LMAO

Moglijuana · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

willlienellson wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Approx 20% of players engage regularly in PvP.
Approx 20% of player engage regularly with "end game raiding" - from my own experience I thought that a little low.
That there was close to 50% crossover between those two groups.

So, would it be fair to say that only TEN PERCENT of players (based on those figures) would engage in grinding "end game raiding" for BIS gear for the purpose of playing PvP with "Meta Builds"?

Uh. No. "Meta Builds" for PvP don't get their gear from end game raids -_______-

Well, I'm including VMA and VDSA in the mix (because I'm quite certain we are talking about the same subset of people) and I'm also quite certain that's very "Meta" for PvP. '0_____0''

Wrong again. "Meta" builds for PvP are rarely using VMA/DSA weapons now since most people are opting for two 5 piece sets & Monster Set as it yields better resource management & better damage. The Master's Bow/Staves do find their way into specific builds, but they are most certainly not Meta, VMA weapons even less so now.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · February 2017

This thread is simply amazing. I have not jumped into midden heap as of yet or taken a side. Signal to noise ratio seems even lower than usual on these forums but hey, hold my unicorn, here I go.

Here are my pre-fabricated argument options to select from:

OP is just bitter/jealous/salty and wishes he was invited (LOL)
OP has a legitimate concern that ZOS ignores existing broader feedback channels and focuses on a very narrow margin of feedback sources that suffer from their own inherent biases.
I agree with most of what the streamers say and they are knowledgeable players so the fact that ZOS invited them is a good thing no matter what.
I don't feel that any of the people invited represent me or others like me and and I feel disenfranchised.
Doesn't matter either way, this is all just a marketing move and ZOS will do it's own thing regardless of what advice the people invited give them.
I don't care either way but I'm just here to argue.

This is like looking at the menu of the restaurant you got dragged to because your friends all wanted to go out and you just ate an hour before.

A couple items on that list look alright but nothing is extremely appetizing. I do watch streams occasionally and agree with some of the streamers some of the time. But I also think ZOS pulls quite unevenly from their feedback sources, sometimes in favor of the most popular voices and sometimes quite the opposite. Option #5 does appeal to my pessimistic side but I would hope that at least one of the things I agree with was mentioned to ZOS during this trip and it was well received.

I guess it really depends on what ZOS actually showed the people invited and how much time they allotted for feedback.

Was it "Here's what we are planning, now go fourth and tell your fans how amazing it is but don't tell them specifics(NDA) so we keep this hype train going"

or was it "This is what we are thinking of doing, here is what we have so far, what are your thoughts and concerns at this point?"

ZOS historically does more of the former than the latter. When ever they present something, even in early beta, it is always feels fait accompli. It will be telling how restrictive they make the NDA and how forthcoming the people invited can be about their experience.

Paraflex · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

willlienellson wrote: »

Of course you got a lot of agrees. The number of whining baddies who

Of course the streamers are getting defended. The number of hero-worshiping fanboys who....blaa blaa blaaaaa

@willlienellson

The amount of jealousy and negativity from you is insane. You are the kind of guy who complains just to get free stuff in life. Who are you to judge ZOS's decision to choose a group of people for what ever purpose they have in mind.

I'd imagine you have offended every person who went to this meeting in Baltimore. Talk about becoming a public enemy at this point.

I don't side with the streamers on everything but what exactly have you accomplish to get an invite to this meeting except complain on the forums and be a self proclaimed expert because you live in mom's basement and play all day.

willlienellson · February 2017

Moglijuana wrote: »

Wrong again. "Meta" builds for PvP are rarely using VMA/DSA weapons now since most people are opting for two 5 piece sets & Monster Set as it yields better resource management & better damage. The Master's Bow/Staves do find their way into specific builds, but they are most certainly not Meta, VMA weapons even less so now.

now. right.
idgaf what is being used this week.

I was talking to a different person, specific to their comment, about the percentage of players that would be involved in BOTH end game raiding and pvp, one to serve the other. You're trying to turn this point into a conversation with you, when it was not.

You want to sidetrack by saying, "Nobody is doing that RIGHT NOW". Okay, but they were. And they probably will later. sheesh.

willlienellson wrote: »

since most people are opting for two 5 piece sets & Monster Set

Right. Cause everyone is running 12 pieces. Almost nobody runs 2H or staff in Cyrodiil. face/palm

Elsonso · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

I do not know whether they brought anyone in for One Tamriel, or Homestead, but in the case of the latter, if they did not do that, they should have done that. Homestead is a massive amount of investment, and I still feel that it missed the mark. It is too niche for the amount of effort they put into it.

And in the PTS everyone was screaming that Homestead missed the mark, while Deltia was "geeking out" over housing on his youtube. His words. Not mine.

And almost all the feedback on the PTS was ignored....and has now been mirrored as complaint threads by the general player base. And now Deltia is at Zos HQ helping form the direction of future content

Don't get confused between liking the direction a product went, and directing where the product went.

There is a market for Homestead, and there are people out there who like it. I think that ZOS and Bethesda feel that there are enough people to justify the effort. Deltia is one of those people who likes what ZOS has done, not the other way around. I think there are more people who would like it if they had spent more time working on it and rolled it up into Morrowind. (Which would have caused anger because of no 1Q Update)

From a development perspective, we are in the final days of Morrowind development. We are on final approach. The avalanche has started. The timer is running out. The big decisions have already been made. This focus group is providing input that ZOS will examine and toy with over the next couple of weeks, not to do as directed, but to validate whatever input they got from these people, decide whether they need to make any changes, decide what those changes would be, decide whether there is time to do anything, and if so, plan and schedule them, and then implement them. If we are lucky, test them. If these people were to have any significant influence on the game, they needed to be at ZOS last summer or fall.

Personally, if I ever attended one of these things, I would not let anyone know, and I would deny it if anyone found out. This thread is giving waaaaaay too much influence to these people. ZOS is going to do stuff people do not like, and the people in this focus group are going to get blamed for corrupting ZOS with bad ideas. In truth, it is all ZOS, it always was ZOS, and it always will be ZOS. I don't believe that these people have the influence being attributed to them. It is simply too late in development.

Moglijuana · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Wrong again. "Meta" builds for PvP are rarely using VMA/DSA weapons now since most people are opting for two 5 piece sets & Monster Set as it yields better resource management & better damage. The Master's Bow/Staves do find their way into specific builds, but they are most certainly not Meta, VMA weapons even less so now.

now. right.
idgaf what is being used this week.

I was talking to a different person, specific to their comment, about the percentage of players that would be involved in BOTH end game raiding and pvp, one to serve the other. You're trying to turn this point into a conversation with you, when it was not.

You want to sidetrack by saying, "Nobody is doing that RIGHT NOW". Okay, but they were. And they probably will later. sheesh.

willlienellson wrote: »

since most people are opting for two 5 piece sets & Monster Set

Right. Cause everyone is running 12 pieces. Almost nobody runs 2H or staff in Cyrodiil. face/palm

You can run 2 5 pieces with a 2h/bow and a Destro/Resto lol. Offensive set front bar, sustain set back bar. Hello proper build planning! Anyways, you seem to be too ingrained in your own little world to have any one else think differently when they actually know what they are talking about. Have fun being wrong on basically your whole post, and making yourself look like a salty care bear

. Have a good day!

willlienellson · February 2017

Moglijuana wrote: »

You can run 2 5 pieces with a 2h/bow and a Destro/Resto lol. Offensive set front bar, sustain set back bar. Hello proper build planning! Anyways, you seem to be too ingrained in your own little world to have any one else think differently when they actually know what they are talking about. Have fun being wrong on basically your whole post, and making yourself look like a salty care bear . Have a good day!

You are dense man. I don't care about the current meta. This is a moment in time. I'm was talking to someone else about something else. I don't think anyone in this entire thread is trying to have a discussion about current meta except you.

Go look at Deltia's 2h/staff build videos going back, and I bet you a majority of them involve a Masters or Maelstrom weps. But it really doesn't matter.

I wonder if you do this all the time IRL? Just go up to 2 people talking about a subject and interrupt them to tell them the subject matter isn't important.

For the 2nd time, I was talking to @Gandrhulf_Harbard about the percentage of people that would be involved in both end-game pve and pvp. I don't care about your meta ideology or your epeen.

I'll have a great day when you stop derailing.

Nerouyn · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

Apparently, right now, a select elite of ESO youtubers like Sypher and Deltia, etc are meeting in person with Zenimax after being invited to the headquarters.

I wonder if Princess Bitter Poor People a member of the inner court?

That aside, this strikes me as fundamentally incestuous but entirely normal business practice. ZO give them something. Even just being invited to HQ is something. The streamers provide positive coverage and perhaps direct focus away from hotbutton issues like.... housing without storage.

willlienellson · February 2017

Paraflex wrote: »

I'd imagine you have offended every person who went to this meeting in Baltimore.

Oh, the humanity!

LiquidSchwartz · February 2017

I utterly disagree. Sypher posted a video asking his viewers to tell him what we wanted to convey to the developers. Not only that, but just because they're better at the game doesn't mean they don't experience players cheating. Do you watch every stream the entire time it is happening? FENGRUSH has a video on youtube about cheaters back when the cheat engine was working and people could fly and drop infinite meteors. You just got upset because you're not being invited to give input for the game when people who play this game for a living are. They know more about the game than the average player. You have no idea what they are testing. Stop complaining for the sake of complaining. If some change happens because of them that offends you (which I'm sure will happen, then you can take up your angry posts about how we aren't represented properly.
I don't mean to sound kinda aggressive, but I'm so tired of people ragging on ZoS the past couple weeks since Morrowind was announced.

Hammy01 · February 2017

One positive thing we can draw from this.. when these youtubers / streamers get back from their vacation testing / playing with the new toys at ZOS, we will get an idea if the content is going to be any good. They have an NDA and can't speak about anything but they won't be able to hide their emotions... so if those invited have an uncontrollable excitement and eagerness to play non stop then we know the upcoming content might be pretty good. On the other hand if those invited have lost all desire to even log in and just go through the emotions of getting a paycheck then maybe we all need to worry!!

willlienellson · February 2017

LiquidSchwartz wrote: »

You just got upset because you're not being invited to give input for the game when people who play this game for a living are.

And you're just mad about this thread because your girlfriend left you for me.

See, I can project random crap onto you too.

DenMoria · February 2017

Moglijuana wrote: »

willlienellson wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Wrong again. "Meta" builds for PvP are rarely using VMA/DSA weapons now since most people are opting for two 5 piece sets & Monster Set as it yields better resource management & better damage. The Master's Bow/Staves do find their way into specific builds, but they are most certainly not Meta, VMA weapons even less so now.

now. right.
idgaf what is being used this week.

I was talking to a different person, specific to their comment, about the percentage of players that would be involved in BOTH end game raiding and pvp, one to serve the other. You're trying to turn this point into a conversation with you, when it was not.

You want to sidetrack by saying, "Nobody is doing that RIGHT NOW". Okay, but they were. And they probably will later. sheesh.

willlienellson wrote: »

since most people are opting for two 5 piece sets & Monster Set

Right. Cause everyone is running 12 pieces. Almost nobody runs 2H or staff in Cyrodiil. face/palm

You can run 2 5 pieces with a 2h/bow and a Destro/Resto lol. Offensive set front bar, sustain set back bar. Hello proper build planning! Anyways, you seem to be too ingrained in your own little world to have any one else think differently when they actually know what they are talking about. Have fun being wrong on basically your whole post, and making yourself look like a salty care bear . Have a good day!

Did you just tell some one "Proper Build Planning"? And just who determines what "proper" is? You?

willlienellson · February 2017

Hammy01 wrote: »

so if those invited have an uncontrollable excitement and eagerness to play non stop then we know the upcoming content might be pretty good.

See my reply somewhere in the last 2 pages about Deltia's enthusiasm over Homestead and how it contrasts with most player feedback.