WRONG FEEDBACK SOURCE Streamers don't represent most players

bitels · February 2017

Riga_Mortis wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

StackonClown wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

I agree most have multiple layers of players testing. A lot of the people at zos aren't twitch streamers though so.. the marketing theory may have a couple holes imo.

I might be reading this wrong, but are you actually saying that you, as twitch streamers, have more influence than paid ZOS employees when it comes to testing. Pretty sure thats what this entire thread is worried about in general.

Yes, you might be reading this wrong- a lot of the ppl that were invited to ZoS HQ for a week are not streamers.
[edited to remove quote]

StackonClown · February 2017

FENGRUSH wrote: »

StackonClown wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

I agree most have multiple layers of players testing. A lot of the people at zos aren't twitch streamers though so.. the marketing theory may have a couple holes imo.

Well by marketing I mean that:

ZOS doesnt really need any non-ZOS person to 'theorycraft' or 'playtest' other than as a token gesture and maybe some generalised feedback.

So instead, they see the players, streamers, youtubers who are passionate about the game, and know the game well and are typically near the top in multiple areas whether pve, pvp, builds, general mechanics and rotations, theory etc.

They then invite these players as a reward for their dedication and also passion in generating interest in the game - and basically acknowledge their place in the game... and then..

'Now go tell the world how awesome the game is and Zeni is also' - i.e. go ahead and market and promote the game for us fo the next 12 months.. and maybe you'll come back again next year.

This is called marketing! Typically this is something like 'celebrity marketing'...
Imagine if noone ever did a youtube or stream relating to ESO.. This would not be good for business!
So whether you intend or not, you are part of Zeni's marketing framework.

I look forward to anyone who attended to criticise ZOS loudly on their youtube for the next 'dumb' thing ZOS does (like nerfing proc crit - for no other good reason than to force yet another few months of grinding).

Do I have an issue with this? No!! Have fun!

BUT... call it what it is... not some invite to 'theory crafters' as was said by someone from ZOS which would imply this will help to fix issues or improve the game.

Just call it the 'ZOS awesome player/streamer' summit, take some photos, publish a magazine, play laser tag.. whatever!

Note this is not a personal judgement on you - I find your videos entertaining and enjoy watching them!
[edited to remove quote]

willlienellson · February 2017

bitels wrote: »

Yes, you might be reading this wrong- a lot of the ppl that were invited to ZoS HQ for a week are not streamers.

FWIW, Zos pushed me into a corner of using "streamers" because when I tried to use the word L0bby!sts to describe the group it was deleted twice. But also, it seems we are all using the term "streamers" now to encompass anyone who puts out videos. And people are saying Alcast isn't one, but if you google his name and ESO the first result is youtube videos.

Not that I have a problem with streaming, or youtube, or any of it. It's great.

@FENGRUSH, @Deltia, @Alcast, etc......I think it's great you guys are making a living (or trying to) doing something you enjoy and I hope you all get many thousands more followers and get wealthy from it. Seriously.

But that has nothing to do with the subject of the thread. I understand your immediate emotional reaction (and that of your fans) is to become very defensive. But it's not about you or the service you provide to viewers.

idk · February 2017

Other than streaming and such I am unsure what @fengrush does. However, @Deltia and @Alcast both deliver extreemly useful information about the game and builds that perform well. They have demonstrated the ability to discern what works well as the constantly changing ESO evolves.

Further, there are other Zos invited that are less known, but Zos knows them well for the success and critical thinking in ESO in relation to what is being tested.

So, to @willlienellson I ask what have you done to demonstrate your worthiness to be part of the testing or even to have an understanding of who should be involved in the testing. All I have seen you contribute is salty threads to the forums that provide little value.

Cadbury · February 2017

15 pages...amazeballs.

@Giles.floydub17_ESO , just let it go. It's not worth it. All that matters is the delicious popcorn.

StackonClown · February 2017

For what its worth, I have supported Zeni as a loyal customer.

I have bought 3 copies of ESO, sub to ESO+, bought many 10s of thousands of crowns and bought a *lot* of crown crates. (Unlike people who complained about them and bought none!)

This may not be much compared to others, but I'm not throwing stones from a distance - I have 'put my money on the table' for a game I enjoy.

But I'm passionate about Zeni fixing things that affect ALL players like botting and exploiting and dont see Zeni doing enough in this area. These things dont need a player meeting to discover - they are all well known!

I also find it odd that Zeni are so secretive about their player numbers and also *statistics* (not details) about player discipline. Why? Its not like there is some legislation preventing it - be transparent!

So when I see what I still feel is a thinly veiled marketing/award meeting being called a theorycrafting playtest'... I will not wear that easily.

A lot. most, nearly all people who play ESO are clever and have great instincts and don't like to be treated like fools

Tabbycat · February 2017

If they make the game better, that's a great thing.

If not... now we know who to blame. bwahahahaha

dsalter · February 2017

VileDeeds77 wrote: »

cheemers wrote: »

I think all three of the streamers you mentioned by name are actually pretty great ambassadors for the game and its playerbase. You don't know what specifically they are being asked to review at ZoS - I'm confident that they'll be looking to review new PvP systems rather than new quests or whatever. I'm not sure what axe you have to grind but some of your assertions about cheaters and exploiters and the "middle 98%" are completely baseless and frankly laughable.

I agree.

OP, not sure if you have watched any of Fengrush's videos but he is very critical and rightfully so of the entire Cyrodiil experience, from getting zerged down in the wheel of pain, to the stability of Cyrodiil. He is respectful toward the work that is done by the devs toward combat changes and Cyrodiil, but by no means does he kiss any butts at ZOS.

they will after special treatment.

StackonClown · February 2017

MakoFore wrote: »

StackonClown wrote: »

MakoFore wrote: »

well as i said- I'm happy fengrush and deltia, and alcast are there to rep me. they've blasted the game, supported the game- been fair throughout. most of all they've done good things for the community. i know they loe the game and just want whats best for all gamers- and for the longevity and welfare of the gaming community. so whats wrong with that?

How is anyone representing you?
Have you given them direct feedback to relay on to ZOS?
What are your main concerns and how can these players help to get them addressed?

How do you mean support the game? buying crowns, subbing? or just 'liking the game' by playing for hours and hours.

i would rather these guys do it than a random selection or a hired testers. these guys hear our complaints on our streams day and night- and are as close to professional players that we have in the community. whats wrong with getting their feedback? nothings final. as we saw with PTS, plenty of time to *** things up.

Ok fine - i hear you - if that is really the case that you are giving feedback to 'these guys' day and night... then once they are back please simply ask them:

- what feedback they gave
- what Zeni said about the feedback
- what Zeni will do with the feedback
- check what really was done?

anitajoneb17_ESO · February 2017

StackonClown wrote: »

Well by marketing I mean that:

ZOS doesnt really need any non-ZOS person to 'theorycraft' or 'playtest' other than as a token gesture and maybe some generalised feedback.

All you say about marketing is true, but it's not true that ZOS doesn't need non-ZOS people to test and theorycraft.
Professional testers CANNOT have the eyes of a player. The people ZOS invited have the point of view of players.

I think ZOS is doing both : marketing AND collecting valuable input/feedback.

StackonClown · February 2017

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

StackonClown wrote: »

Well by marketing I mean that:

ZOS doesnt really need any non-ZOS person to 'theorycraft' or 'playtest' other than as a token gesture and maybe some generalised feedback.

All you say about marketing is true, but it's not true that ZOS doesn't need non-ZOS people to test and theorycraft.
Professional testers CANNOT have the eyes of a player. The people ZOS invited have the poitn of view of a players.

I think ZOS is doing both : marketing AND collecting valuable input/feedback.

Look thats fair - but is a few players for 1 week really going to make a tangible difference?
And they wont spend the entire week playing/'testing'.. maybe 2 or 3 days max

Whereas ZOS employees, devs AND testers will work for months on end..

bitels · February 2017

StackonClown wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@Deltia and @Alcast both deliver extreemly useful information about the game and builds that perform well. They have demonstrated the ability to discern what works well as the constantly changing ESO evolves..

Again, the best players actually work for Zeni - they dont really need any <insert player/streamer here> to show them something that they 'didnt work out yet' - they *wrote the game* LOL

Have to disagree, i already once mentioned it in this topic but i could repeat:

bitels wrote: »

Best example- Woeler video about frost tanking, where he pointed out a basic problems with whole concept, that could be easily fixed on the earlier stages, but at that point it was already to late to rework whole thing, so now we are stucked with it for at least next 4 month

Testers on ZoS pay roll dont know everything. They may lack of experience in a field of competive end game that some players have, or maybe they lack certain point of view that they have. Either way- example above show how important feedback from those players might be

Arthg · February 2017

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I think ZOS is doing both : marketing AND collecting valuable input/feedback.

But that's exactly what's at hand here:
1) how more valuable than pages after pages of feedback threads are those exceptional players' opinions?
2) why should ZOS pay heed to these opinions rather than the feedback threads, which ZOS consistently ignore?

If I weren't the ever-optimist, I'd say that ZOS is doing nothing else than cleverly turning potentially critical prominent members of the players' "community" into docile instruments of the back-stabbing, money-grabbing operation that Morrowind is.

"Morrowind. Tested and balanced by Alcast, Fengrush, Deltia and Sypher. Out June 2017 for only $49.99."

JinMori · February 2017

Arthg wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I think ZOS is doing both : marketing AND collecting valuable input/feedback.

But that's exactly what's at hand here:
1) how more valuable than pages after pages of feedback threads are those exceptional players' opinions?
2) why should ZOS pay heed to these opinions rather than the feedback threads, which ZOS consistently ignore?

If I weren't the ever-optimist, I'd say that ZOS is doing nothing else than cleverly turning potentially critical prominent members of the players' "community" into docile instruments of the back-stabbing, money-grabbing operation that Morrowind is.

"Morrowind. Tested and balanced by Alcast, Fengrush, Deltia and Sypher. Out June 2017 for only $49.99."

Better then:
Morrowind. Tested and balanced by average dudes who don't know *** about the game. Out June 2017 for only $49.99

StackonClown · February 2017

bitels wrote: »

StackonClown wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@Deltia and @Alcast both deliver extreemly useful information about the game and builds that perform well. They have demonstrated the ability to discern what works well as the constantly changing ESO evolves..

Again, the best players actually work for Zeni - they dont really need any <insert player/streamer here> to show them something that they 'didnt work out yet' - they *wrote the game* LOL

Have to disagree, i already once mentioned it in this topic but i could repeat:

bitels wrote: »

Best example- Woeler video about frost tanking, where he pointed out a basic problems with whole concept, that could be easily fixed on the earlier stages, but at that point it was already to late to rework whole thing, so now we are stucked with it for at least next 4 month

Yeah I remember reading this now - Ok, so what do we expect will happen ? Once Deltia and the gang are there, will they ask Zeni: 'please listen to people like Woeler in future' ? As we have been saying all along, even if Woeler sees it as a flaw, either Zeni doesnt or doesnt care, or doesnt want to for other reasons fix it ?

Isn't dropping 'premium' gear in training/prosperous essentially a flaw ?
Will Zeni fix it - Noooooo! They WANT you to have a crap roll chance - They WANT you to run VMA 500 times

This is their business model - how do you fix this flaw?

anitajoneb17_ESO · February 2017

Arthg wrote: »

But that's exactly what's at hand here:
1) how more valuable than pages after pages of feedback threads are those exceptional players' opinions?
2) why should ZOS pay heed to these opinions rather than the feedback threads, which ZOS consistently ignore?

I explained that already (comment #295 in this thread) but I don't mind copy/pasting again

Forum feedback is totally different from what they are doing now. Players on forum do their own thing and follow their own expectations in the game. Their feedback is just the conclusion of that, and there's usually not much information on what and how they reach that conclusion / feedback.

What ZOS is doing now allows to put all participants in the same conditions, doing the same thing and asked to look at things from the same approach. The collected feedback is much more valuable in those circumstances.

Last but not least, forum feedback doesn't allow ZOS to see what players DO. It's only what players SAY. And more often than not, looking at what people DO differs greatly from what people SAY. When you do behaviour analysis (player/playing behaviour analysis in the current case) it's crucial to consider what people DO and not only what they SAY.

Elsonso · February 2017

StackonClown wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

This is hardly anything new and has been happening on a regular basis since beta.
The only difference is that this time ZOS opted to make this public.

Just making sure this doesn't get lost in all the drivel ...

So why make it public? I don't see how it helps - apart from the pyramid marketing style effect it will have later.
A few people on here have said ZOS never said these players represent the community etc - then don't mention it at all?

But to announce this to the community is attempting to imply that either the community is indeed represented or will benefit somehow.

In the mean time, ZOS does indeed solicit feedback on the forums ALL the time - Just check all the 'Official feedback thread for <insert here>' threads. But how often do we see them either ignore dozens of pages of feedback or do the exact opposite. Then why bother - just do whatever...

The thing that I'm a bit surprised by is Zeni not really focusing on fixing serious issues like botting, exploits etc.

Why make it public? So that we know that they are taking community input. As SirAndy said, they have been taking community input, and having meetings with players, for years. While these have not (all) been in secret, as even I have heard about them, they are not announced. A big complaint from community is that they don't listen. Now, we can change gears and really dig into the complaint that they listen to the wrong people.

I, for one, am happy that they brought people in to play test under NDA for Morrowind, and perhaps other systems that are T.B.A. I really don't care about the bias of the players that they bring in because those players counter the bias that the developers have had for the last several months designing and developing this stuff. For as much as they might not agree, they live in an Ivory Tower. They need players to come in and talk to them to combat this.

I do not know whether they brought anyone in for One Tamriel, or Homestead, but in the case of the latter, if they did not do that, they should have done that. Homestead is a massive amount of investment, and I still feel that it missed the mark. It is too niche for the amount of effort they put into it.

If ZOS were in the early stages of design and were bringing in players for stuff that we will not see for a year, then I would be more concerned about who they were bringing in.

Why not pull from the forum? I am sure they do. The problem with the forum is that the people who are making suggestions are doing it out of context. They cannot know whether the suggestion they are making is the right thing to do, or even possible. This means that some suggestions, while sounding right, might be wide of the mark. Since the popularity of a comment or suggestion has absolutely nothing to do with how valid the suggestion is, it is inevitable that a high profile popular suggestion will not be used.

StackonClown wrote: »

A LOT of people complained about Crown crates, including some of the so called 'famous streamers' - will the people visiting Zeni speak up about the 'money grab' or keep their peace for fear of 'not being invited next time'...

They can speak up, if they want, but I don't think that ZOS is the originator of the Crown Crates. The complaint would need to be directed at the people who are. Those people probably won't be at an event like this, although, it is possible that they might make a cameo.

StackonClown wrote: »

How about all the complaining about RNG ??

This is a more appropriate comment for a venue like this. ZOS could have changed that, if they wanted to. That they did not (yet) speaks as loudly as those who want it changed. I, for one, would be interested in hearing more about what ZOS thinks.

StackonClown wrote: »

To me this whole thing seems to be a mix of 2nd tier marketing by buddying up with known players (very good players at that) that have a profile and also buying their silence at least for a while.

Dont bite the hand that feeds you - come to mind ?

To me, this is an end-stage play test focus group for development purposes.

StackonClown · February 2017

lordrichter wrote: »

StackonClown wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

This is hardly anything new and has been happening on a regular basis since beta.
The only difference is that this time ZOS opted to make this public.

Just making sure this doesn't get lost in all the drivel ...

So why make it public? I don't see how it helps - apart from the pyramid marketing style effect it will have later.
A few people on here have said ZOS never said these players represent the community etc - then don't mention it at all?

But to announce this to the community is attempting to imply that either the community is indeed represented or will benefit somehow.

In the mean time, ZOS does indeed solicit feedback on the forums ALL the time - Just check all the 'Official feedback thread for <insert here>' threads. But how often do we see them either ignore dozens of pages of feedback or do the exact opposite. Then why bother - just do whatever...

The thing that I'm a bit surprised by is Zeni not really focusing on fixing serious issues like botting, exploits etc.

Why make it public? So that we know that they are taking community input. As SirAndy said, they have been taking community input, and having meetings with players, for years. While these have not (all) been in secret, as even I have heard about them, they are not announced. A big complaint from community is that they don't listen. Now, we can change gears and really dig into the complaint that they listen to the wrong people.

I, for one, am happy that they brought people in to play test under NDA for Morrowind, and perhaps other systems that are T.B.A. I really don't care about the bias of the players that they bring in because those players counter the bias that the developers have had for the last several months designing and developing this stuff. For as much as they might not agree, they live in an Ivory Tower. They need players to come in and talk to them to combat this.

I do not know whether they brought anyone in for One Tamriel, or Homestead, but in the case of the latter, if they did not do that, they should have done that. Homestead is a massive amount of investment, and I still feel that it missed the mark. It is too niche for the amount of effort they put into it.

If ZOS were in the early stages of design and were bringing in players for stuff that we will not see for a year, then I would be more concerned about who they were bringing in.

Why not pull from the forum? I am sure they do. The problem with the forum is that the people who are making suggestions are doing it out of context. They cannot know whether the suggestion they are making is the right thing to do, or even possible. This means that some suggestions, while sounding right, might be wide of the mark. Since the popularity of a comment or suggestion has absolutely nothing to do with how valid the suggestion is, it is inevitable that a high profile popular suggestion will not be used.

StackonClown wrote: »

A LOT of people complained about Crown crates, including some of the so called 'famous streamers' - will the people visiting Zeni speak up about the 'money grab' or keep their peace for fear of 'not being invited next time'...

They can speak up, if they want, but I don't think that ZOS is the originator of the Crown Crates. The complaint would need to be directed at the people who are. Those people probably won't be at an event like this, although, it is possible that they might make a cameo.

StackonClown wrote: »

How about all the complaining about RNG ??

This is a more appropriate comment for a venue like this. ZOS could have changed that, if they wanted to. That they did not (yet) speaks as loudly as those who want it changed. I, for one, would be interested in hearing more about what ZOS thinks.

StackonClown wrote: »

To me this whole thing seems to be a mix of 2nd tier marketing by buddying up with known players (very good players at that) that have a profile and also buying their silence at least for a while.

Dont bite the hand that feeds you - come to mind ?

To me, this is an end-stage play test focus group for development purposes.

Interesting comments - thanks for your thoughts.. although I have a somewhat different stance on some of these points, I think your observations may not be far off the mark..

bitels · February 2017

StackonClown wrote: »

bitels wrote: »

StackonClown wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@Deltia and @Alcast both deliver extreemly useful information about the game and builds that perform well. They have demonstrated the ability to discern what works well as the constantly changing ESO evolves..

Again, the best players actually work for Zeni - they dont really need any <insert player/streamer here> to show them something that they 'didnt work out yet' - they *wrote the game* LOL

Have to disagree, i already once mentioned it in this topic but i could repeat:

bitels wrote: »

Best example- Woeler video about frost tanking, where he pointed out a basic problems with whole concept, that could be easily fixed on the earlier stages, but at that point it was already to late to rework whole thing, so now we are stucked with it for at least next 4 month

Yeah I remember reading this now - Ok, so what do we expect will happen ? Once Deltia and the gang are there, will they ask Zeni: 'please listen to people like Woeler in future' ? As we have been saying all along, even if Woeler sees it as a flaw, either Zeni doesnt or doesnt care, or doesnt want to for other reasons fix it ?

Isn't dropping 'premium' gear in training/prosperous essentially a flaw ?
Will Zeni fix it - Noooooo! They WANT you to have a crap roll chance - They WANT you to run VMA 500 times

This is their business model - how do you fix this flaw?

Of course in the end its ZoS that decide what will they do with a feedback they recive. Will they change anything or not.
But I just think that feedback from experience players is usefull, they might have ideas that ZOS doesnt even think about, or pick up flaws that developers didnt saw.
Just dont get why so many ppl see it as such horrible thing. It isnt end of ESO that developers decides to first test thing with closed group of players before realesing it for open test in PTS

VelociousLegend · February 2017

CyrusArya wrote:

My point is that the opinions of a knowledgeable minority are more valuable than the opinions of an ignorant majority.

Direct and digestible feedback from a knowledgeable and experienced group of players.

willlienellson wrote:

"ZOS gave away $1 million about a year ago to whoever - couldn't they have hired like 10 people with that to 'playtest' 24/7 to help resolve some of these issues.."

The whole post is brilliant, but this line is especially on point.

People already complain that ZOS employees don't play the game at a high level or understand the daily struggles. So your resolution is to add more QA members to the development team?

I still fail to see the logic of why sending experienced and knowledgeable players to a closed beta test of sorts is bad. Out of fear that those chosen will find more 'secret cheats'? That they'll just want to buff their favorite class? Come on.

willlienellson · February 2017

lordrichter wrote: »

I do not know whether they brought anyone in for One Tamriel, or Homestead, but in the case of the latter, if they did not do that, they should have done that. Homestead is a massive amount of investment, and I still feel that it missed the mark. It is too niche for the amount of effort they put into it.

And in the PTS everyone was screaming that Homestead missed the mark, while Deltia was "geeking out" over housing on his youtube. His words. Not mine.

And almost all the feedback on the PTS was ignored....and has now been mirrored as complaint threads by the general player base. And now Deltia is at Zos HQ helping form the direction of future content

Balamoor · February 2017

Just want to point out to folks there is an ignore feature on the forums, if there is any comments from anyone you don't wish to see or you feel is bothering you.

Also honestly this thread has devolved into:

"I know you are but what am I?" childishness, think of the starving vampric marsupials in Africa...what would they say if they saw you squabbling like this?

idk · February 2017

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

Yes and Zos will open testing to everyone. It will be open on PTS for the normal 5 weeks.

For now they are looking for feedback in the initial design of the battlegrounds based on who they invited. The feedback is fairly specific in dealing with other overall design. It's certainly not for marketing since the testers cannot discuss it for months.

I will admit that I'm not that guy who can provide them the information needed at this point in developement. Can I say something worthy, maybe but not to the deput Zos wants right now. The same can be said of know for of us that have posted in his thread and in the forums as a whole.

Willie and others can be if the oppinion that streamers should not have been included for whatever opinions they have and that's fine. I'm of the oppinion I'd rather 20 knowledgeable and capable players like @deltia @Alcast @FENGRUSH involved in this early testing than 100 of me or 1000 willies.

I'd like it done well.
[edited to remove quote]

JinMori · February 2017

One last thing, the reason why i seem to keep defending these streamers, youtubers etc.. is because i actually learned something from them, when i joined this game about a year ago i didn't know much of course, but i wanted to become a better player, so the day later i searched on the web for some information, and the first channel i saw was deltia's channel, i got some addons, and at endgame i was doing about 10-15 k dps thanks to him, there are some people who gets like 5 k, and that was just from listening, then as i continued to watch i learned more and more stuff, so i learned animation cancelling, how to burst properly, how to make a setup, etc... after deltia i saw fengrush, sypher, alcast and gilliamtherogue, now thanks to all the things i learned from them i can do about 40 to 50 k dps in optimal situations, with every class.
This is why i say that i prefer letting them do the balance compared to the average joe.

anitajoneb17_ESO · February 2017

JinMori wrote: »

[snip]

We disagree about semantics here. You seem to happily mix up facts, opinions, advice and belief.

A fact is a fact. It may be true or false, backed up or not by evidence, and depending on those, you'll believe or not believe it.
An opinion is not something you believe in , it's something you share or not, something you agree or disagree with.

Player 1 : "Skill A should be nerved" (Opinion) because of number X and number Y (facts backing up opinion)
Player 2 : "Skill A should be buffed" (Opinion) because of number W and number Z (other facts backing up opinion).
Player 3 : "Skill A should be buffed" (Opinion) because number X and Y as presented by player 1 are wrong (disbelief in facts)

etc etc.

80% of ESO tutorials and build-providers on the internet don't explain the strategy and numbers behind their builds. They post a combination of skill, gear and CP, then videos and parses, and say : "See ? That's currently BiS". No real explanation, no details. Probably partly because they don't know how to explain, probably also because they know that most people just want to copy/paste and don't want to understand anything.

Actually the best advice and explanation givers I've met in the game are slightly above-average players who have taken the time to study, decipher and understand the tutorials and builds provided by the top players. But not the top players themselves.

Top players are primarily players. Streamers are primarily entertainers. Tutorial and build authors are primarily teachers. Theorycrafters are primarily analysts. Some people happen to have several of these qualities but in this thread we throw all of them into one pot.
[edited to remove quote]

willlienellson · February 2017

JinMori wrote: »

One last thing, the reason why i seem to keep defending these streamers, youtubers etc.. is because i actually learned something from them, when i joined this game about a year ago i didn't know much of course, but i wanted to become a better player.......

I can appreciate that. I really can. And I've never tried to suggest that those guys don't provide a service. It's just kind of beside my point.

When I first started investing and trading I read some books by a guy that runs a hedge fund. I learned tons, became a huge fan, and certainly owe some degree of my success to his lessons.

That doesn't mean I want him in DC helping to write finance law. You know what I mean?

idk · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

One last thing, the reason why i seem to keep defending these streamers, youtubers etc.. is because i actually learned something from them, when i joined this game about a year ago i didn't know much of course, but i wanted to become a better player.......

I can appreciate that. I really can. And I've never tried to suggest that those guys don't provide a service. It's just kind of beside my point.

When I first started investing and trading I read some books by a guy that runs a hedge fund. I learned tons, became a huge fan, and certainly owe some degree of my success to his lessons.

That doesn't mean I want him in DC helping to write finance law. You know what I mean?

I fail to see how this truly relates outside of a stretch that he is considered an expert and you are saying @FENGRUSH may be an expert.

There is a player of ESO who's unravels all the mysteries pertaining to math in ESO. He's provided us with great information and even a tool for calculating what CP allotments would serve our dps best. Through your his posts of indepth mathematical formulas Zos has certainly learned from him about how some aspects of the game actually work. This s allows them to make adjustments.

Zos has learned plenty from fantastic players since early beta to present day. I recall in beta the devs learned that cost reduction. Didn't have a cap or soft cap from the works of one player. They acknowledged this.

Any MMO needs people like these. Players that have insight to unravel the mysteries and understand the actual mechanics that find what works and what really isn't working. With this I'm not even talking about balance.

So when Zos needs specific feedback they will go to specific people. Not because they stream but because they have displayed deep knowledge of gaming and have proved to provide worthwhile feebback of the type they're needing. Something most players, including myself cannot provide as well.

Agree or disagree with Zos, that's your prerogative. If well designed battlegrounds are desired then the path Zos is taking will provide the best chance.

Oh. BTW, Zos has what is essentially focus groups in game. Various representatives of guilds from casual to hard core from which they regularly communicate. Of course not every guild is represented because that would be just to many people. It's a good cross section across the several groups.

Moglijuana · February 2017

[snip]

ZOS* is currently in possession of one of the best "Open World" MMOPVP games on the market (One of the ONLY ones on console too). It would behoove them to invite players that are knowledgeable in that specific area of the game to continue to build on what makes it so successful. Sorry that they are seen as "elite" for simply understanding game mechanics and being able to outsmart the average PuG in Cyrodiil. Welcome to PvP in every single pvp game ever.

And of course bringing the Top End PvE players in is a smart move as well. Who else would you invite to discuss the next tier of THE HARDEST content coming out for PvE? Some player who made it to 561 using light attacks only? No thanks. The PvE in this game is already pretty laughable when compared to other MMO's so them making more difficult and engaging content for strong players will only lengthen their life span as a game.
[edited for baiting]

ThePaleItalian · February 2017

@willlienellson

What would you do differently?

I know that mods are all over the forums, maybe not always giving us the feedback we want, but they are there. They are now even putting spoiler tags in their patch notes to explain why they did certain things or doing in a certain direction.

I am curious after trying to sift through 17 pages of this "stuff" What you feel would be the correct way to market? or even have feedback over the current situation?

anitajoneb17_ESO · February 2017

Moglijuana wrote: »

The PvE in this game is already pretty laughable when compared to other MMO's so them making more difficult and engaging content for strong players will only lengthen their life span as a game.

Could you please explain your reasoning ?
How is making content more difficult - thus probably more appealing and long lasting for the 10% best players will lengthen the lifetime of the game ? Considering that it might scare off the 90 remaining % of players... I don't understand.

I think ZOS people and the panel of players over there are all smart enough to not fall into that meaningless shortcut. Making the game *better* has nothing to do with making it more difficult. That's what some people in this thread fear.

Besides, were you there in early 2014 ? The game was really difficult back then. It nearly died because of it. If ZOS hadn't made that original mistake, maybe ESO would still be sub-only and we would not have to endure the current, somewhat cash-oriented design.