There's no such thing as "Balance for the Average Player"

wisej12 · February 2017

bubbygink wrote: »

wisej12 wrote: »

Well you'll be happy to hear that on Monday proc sets were sevearly nerfed. You don't see them very much anymore, and when you do, it's probably an inexperienced player because proc sets are no longer the dominant strategy.

I'm on Xbox so still waiting on the update. Is this actually true? Most players have taken off proc sets? I've always had the feel that even with the nerf proc sets will remain dominant by far. Even with a 30ish percent drop in damage stuff like viper should still be BiS. It would be a big surprise to me if proc sets really are not dominant anymore.

30% less damage is much more massive than you think. Also, tremorscale was reduced by an additional 10%, malubeth was fixed, and viper no longer works with bows (it was never supposed to). My PvP experience after the patch has been very promising, and proc sets are on the way out. Additionally, vitality potions were nerfed which is what allowed people to build glass cannon and still stay alive. It's a bright future.

bubbygink · February 2017

wisej12 wrote: »

30% less damage is much more massive than you think. Also, tremorscale was reduced by an additional 10%, malubeth was fixed, and viper no longer works with bows (it was never supposed to). My PvP experience after the patch has been very promising, and proc sets are on the way out. Additionally, vitality potions were nerfed which is what allowed people to build glass cannon and still stay alive. It's a bright future.

I see. Well then that is good to hear. Currently, it is a virtual given that there will be at least one viper in my death recap. I think practically every stam build is running it on XBox, or so it seems.

NightbladeMechanics · February 2017

dmar613 wrote: »

I can definitley agree with what you are saying, but there comes a point where something has got to change for server populations. On xbox scourge NA, yellows are always popped locked with a group that pushes people for emp and receives Real money as the incentive. At most we'll have 50 blues fighting 200 yellow, happened last week, when we managed to get emp, we were dethroned in 30 minutes.

Also, I refuse to go to haderus because barely any competition in there, and too much dc'ing to have to wait in the que all time. I just don't understand why there is not mechanics in place to promote a healthy balance to server populations.
People refuse to go to scourge because there are too many yellows to fight against, but they will pop lock skull as soon as blue gets emp haha with 1 bar other factions. No one to blame really, just the way it is.... you can't play solo efficiently anymore without getting zerged on no matter where you are.

Tldr: server pops need to be rethought because yellows zerg scourge, reds zerg skull, blues zerg haddy along with every other faction. azuras empty, skeleton empty. we try to leave lagerus, go to skull get zerg by 200 reds vs 50 blue, or scourge 50 blue vs 200 yellow blazing shield tanks whith capture flag builds who lag your whole group out when they show up because there are so many.... js that *** is trash lol no competition, they don't want that.

The solution to population imbalance between so many one-sided campaigns is to close campaigns and force people together.

t3hdubzy · February 2017

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

dmar613 wrote: »

I can definitley agree with what you are saying, but there comes a point where something has got to change for server populations. On xbox scourge NA, yellows are always popped locked with a group that pushes people for emp and receives Real money as the incentive. At most we'll have 50 blues fighting 200 yellow, happened last week, when we managed to get emp, we were dethroned in 30 minutes.

Also, I refuse to go to haderus because barely any competition in there, and too much dc'ing to have to wait in the que all time. I just don't understand why there is not mechanics in place to promote a healthy balance to server populations.
People refuse to go to scourge because there are too many yellows to fight against, but they will pop lock skull as soon as blue gets emp haha with 1 bar other factions. No one to blame really, just the way it is.... you can't play solo efficiently anymore without getting zerged on no matter where you are.

Tldr: server pops need to be rethought because yellows zerg scourge, reds zerg skull, blues zerg haddy along with every other faction. azuras empty, skeleton empty. we try to leave lagerus, go to skull get zerg by 200 reds vs 50 blue, or scourge 50 blue vs 200 yellow blazing shield tanks whith capture flag builds who lag your whole group out when they show up because there are so many.... js that *** is trash lol no competition, they don't want that.

The solution to population imbalance between so many one-sided campaigns is to close campaigns and force people together.

Agree unfortunately the choice is low pop or high lag. They take away the choice of low pop and leave you only with high lag.

Good times

Sylosi · February 2017

wisej12 wrote: »

I often see people complain that ZOS only balances the game for the "elite" players. It's the idea that if you're just an average player the game is horribly unbalanced. But that sentiment just shows a lack of understanding of how this game's balance works.

The irony is strong...

If you only balance the game for the best players then even an "e-sport" type game struggles (see Starcraft), if you do that in what is a much more casual game in terms of skill, which has no meaningful competitive gameplay and a much wider demographic of player then you are real trouble, but ESO fortunately doesn't do that, hence why so many self-proclaimed "leet" players QQ about skilless builds, because like you they don't understand that you balance a game for different levels of player, not just the best players.

DenMoria · February 2017

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

dmar613 wrote: »

I can definitley agree with what you are saying, but there comes a point where something has got to change for server populations. On xbox scourge NA, yellows are always popped locked with a group that pushes people for emp and receives Real money as the incentive. At most we'll have 50 blues fighting 200 yellow, happened last week, when we managed to get emp, we were dethroned in 30 minutes.

Also, I refuse to go to haderus because barely any competition in there, and too much dc'ing to have to wait in the que all time. I just don't understand why there is not mechanics in place to promote a healthy balance to server populations.
People refuse to go to scourge because there are too many yellows to fight against, but they will pop lock skull as soon as blue gets emp haha with 1 bar other factions. No one to blame really, just the way it is.... you can't play solo efficiently anymore without getting zerged on no matter where you are.

Tldr: server pops need to be rethought because yellows zerg scourge, reds zerg skull, blues zerg haddy along with every other faction. azuras empty, skeleton empty. we try to leave lagerus, go to skull get zerg by 200 reds vs 50 blue, or scourge 50 blue vs 200 yellow blazing shield tanks whith capture flag builds who lag your whole group out when they show up because there are so many.... js that *** is trash lol no competition, they don't want that.

The solution to population imbalance between so many one-sided campaigns is to close campaigns and force people together.

Force people together? I don't like 99.99% of the people now! Now you want to force me to be with them???? AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

NightbladeMechanics · February 2017

t3hdubzy wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

dmar613 wrote: »

I can definitley agree with what you are saying, but there comes a point where something has got to change for server populations. On xbox scourge NA, yellows are always popped locked with a group that pushes people for emp and receives Real money as the incentive. At most we'll have 50 blues fighting 200 yellow, happened last week, when we managed to get emp, we were dethroned in 30 minutes.

Also, I refuse to go to haderus because barely any competition in there, and too much dc'ing to have to wait in the que all time. I just don't understand why there is not mechanics in place to promote a healthy balance to server populations.
People refuse to go to scourge because there are too many yellows to fight against, but they will pop lock skull as soon as blue gets emp haha with 1 bar other factions. No one to blame really, just the way it is.... you can't play solo efficiently anymore without getting zerged on no matter where you are.

Tldr: server pops need to be rethought because yellows zerg scourge, reds zerg skull, blues zerg haddy along with every other faction. azuras empty, skeleton empty. we try to leave lagerus, go to skull get zerg by 200 reds vs 50 blue, or scourge 50 blue vs 200 yellow blazing shield tanks whith capture flag builds who lag your whole group out when they show up because there are so many.... js that *** is trash lol no competition, they don't want that.

The solution to population imbalance between so many one-sided campaigns is to close campaigns and force people together.

Agree unfortunately the choice is low pop or high lag. They take away the choice of low pop and leave you only with high lag.

Good times

If they delete too many campaigns, sure. They need the constantly pop locked campaigns + a no cp campaign + 1 more to take overflow in my opinion. That's what na pc has right now, and it's working nicely. We didn't get any campaign openings or closures for a reason with this patch.

NightbladeMechanics · February 2017

Sylosi wrote: »

If you only balance the game for the best players then even an "e-sport" type game struggles (see Starcraft), if you do that in what is a a much more casual game in terms of skill, which has no meaningful competitive gameplay and a much wider demographic of player then you are real trouble, but ESO fortunately doesn't do that, hence why so many self-proclaimed "leet" players QQ about skilless builds.

A game with a low skill cap has a short life expectancy, both for casuals and hardcores.

Also isn't this post in response to those complaining that Zeni is consulting with streamers? Who else would you have them consult with? Forum polls?

alexkdd99 · February 2017

wisej12 wrote: »

Paraflex wrote: »

There's no doubt the recent changes for balance is a step in the right direction. I hope they can continue to make good improvements. Average players are a moving target to please. Even when they are happy give them a month and they will cry about the next thing...it's a tough problem to fix but atleast now ZOS is addressing core issues.

Another good point.
ZOS tends to make drastic, sweeping changes to balance indirectly when they add new content, and it usually makes things worse (despite having super cool new stuff to play with). However, I think they've done a really consistent job in following up those content patches with balance patches that are pretty much on-point, always targeting the core problems. I'm optimistic that this will continue.

dmar613 wrote: »

yes great posts op, and people who are just playing this game for the first time or their 1st mmo for that matter fail to realize how complex these games can be, espicially if you have no mentor or someone to show you the ropes...

I think that's really the core problem when it comes to people feeling that the game is unbalanced. I think it would be a great idea of ZOS to invest more into their streamer community, like League of Legends did. League is an equally complex game (if not more complex), but new players still have the courage and grit to learn and improve themselves because they feel inspired by watching professional players stream and participate in tournaments. The inexperienced players know there's some legitimacy to getting crushed, because they constantly see the people who have risen above that.

I disagree. They should focus more on the average player as they make up way more of the population than steamers. But then again I have never cared to watch steamers.

Putting focus on the minority soon becomes balancing around that same minority. The game should be balanced around the majority of players.

DenMoria · February 2017

alexkdd99 wrote: »

wisej12 wrote: »

Paraflex wrote: »

There's no doubt the recent changes for balance is a step in the right direction. I hope they can continue to make good improvements. Average players are a moving target to please. Even when they are happy give them a month and they will cry about the next thing...it's a tough problem to fix but atleast now ZOS is addressing core issues.

Another good point.
ZOS tends to make drastic, sweeping changes to balance indirectly when they add new content, and it usually makes things worse (despite having super cool new stuff to play with). However, I think they've done a really consistent job in following up those content patches with balance patches that are pretty much on-point, always targeting the core problems. I'm optimistic that this will continue.

dmar613 wrote: »

yes great posts op, and people who are just playing this game for the first time or their 1st mmo for that matter fail to realize how complex these games can be, espicially if you have no mentor or someone to show you the ropes...

I think that's really the core problem when it comes to people feeling that the game is unbalanced. I think it would be a great idea of ZOS to invest more into their streamer community, like League of Legends did. League is an equally complex game (if not more complex), but new players still have the courage and grit to learn and improve themselves because they feel inspired by watching professional players stream and participate in tournaments. The inexperienced players know there's some legitimacy to getting crushed, because they constantly see the people who have risen above that.

I disagree. They should focus more on the average player as they make up way more of the population than steamers. But then again I have never cared to watch steamers.

Putting focus on the minority soon becomes balancing around that same minority. The game should be balanced around the majority of players.

Ah... but then it wouldn't be a classic MMO. MMO's have always focused on their elite players. They're elite for a reason. They have the time and patience. We casuals do not, which makes us transient and catering to a transient population only works in homeless services and hotelier.

Sylosi · February 2017

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

If you only balance the game for the best players then even an "e-sport" type game struggles (see Starcraft), if you do that in what is a a much more casual game in terms of skill, which has no meaningful competitive gameplay and a much wider demographic of player then you are real trouble, but ESO fortunately doesn't do that, hence why so many self-proclaimed "leet" players QQ about skilless builds.

A game with a low skill cap has a short life expectancy, both for casuals and hardcores.

Not really, you are playing an MMORPG, every single one of which including this one has at best a mediocre skillcap, laughable balance and huge flaws in design in terms of being a skillful game, because guess what, the vast majority of players that play MMORPGs aren't bothered about skill cap in the slightest, you've confused the game with SC2.

Beyond that maybe you should read things properly, I didn't say games should be low skill cap, I said developers balance for different groups not just the best players, especially in a game like an MMORPG with a very varied playerbase.

JinMori · February 2017

alexkdd99 wrote: »

wisej12 wrote: »

Paraflex wrote: »

There's no doubt the recent changes for balance is a step in the right direction. I hope they can continue to make good improvements. Average players are a moving target to please. Even when they are happy give them a month and they will cry about the next thing...it's a tough problem to fix but atleast now ZOS is addressing core issues.

Another good point.
ZOS tends to make drastic, sweeping changes to balance indirectly when they add new content, and it usually makes things worse (despite having super cool new stuff to play with). However, I think they've done a really consistent job in following up those content patches with balance patches that are pretty much on-point, always targeting the core problems. I'm optimistic that this will continue.

dmar613 wrote: »

yes great posts op, and people who are just playing this game for the first time or their 1st mmo for that matter fail to realize how complex these games can be, espicially if you have no mentor or someone to show you the ropes...

I think that's really the core problem when it comes to people feeling that the game is unbalanced. I think it would be a great idea of ZOS to invest more into their streamer community, like League of Legends did. League is an equally complex game (if not more complex), but new players still have the courage and grit to learn and improve themselves because they feel inspired by watching professional players stream and participate in tournaments. The inexperienced players know there's some legitimacy to getting crushed, because they constantly see the people who have risen above that.

I disagree. They should focus more on the average player as they make up way more of the population than steamers. But then again I have never cared to watch steamers.

Putting focus on the minority soon becomes balancing around that same minority. The game should be balanced around the majority of players.

You know what happens when you focus too much on casuals? you get a game with no flavour, no skill, no competition, no nothing, look at what happened at wow during WOD, yea... from 10 mil to 4 mil. the fact is that you should have both easy and hard content in a game, if you only have one of a kind it gets boring pretty soon.

wisej12 · February 2017

DenMoria wrote: »

soll wrote: »

makes me feel funny every time when I hear statement that game is balances around "elite" players.

ZoS made this game casual as never before. you can easily play your way in the worst build ever, having 4k dps and reach 500+ cp without even close understanding of mechanics of basic combat. not even talking about vet dungeons. The progress of leveling in this game is so fast, that people simply have no time and desire to learn because TESO are not punishing them for wrong builds and low efficiently in any way. , unless they are guided by skilled friend. And now they made leveling even more faster.

As an officer in in pve social guild, it feels painful trying to teach new players. It's simply doesn't work. Out of 200 new members, only 5 asking and listening for an advices. And worst part, as long as this new "majority" of players will face the problems, they not thinking about improving themselves, they complain, that game is hard. Take a look, majority of content is nerfed. vICP? vWGT? joke! even vMA in new patch can be done so easy-cheesy on pet sorc that now even worst player can finish it. you just press 2 bottoms and everything around melts.

LFM v16 ftw.

Gee... it's funny how we "casual" players don't agree with you. Funny that. Particularly when it's obvious how "balanced" around the "elite" squad everything is.

Sure, the first 50 levels are great and the solo PvE isn't bad either, but, just try not being perfect and attempting to do anything in the higher level content and see how well we "casual" players are treated.

I suppose we should apologize for not being the "perfect" players like you and not being the "skilled" player that you obviously are that everything is so easy and a walk in the park.

I am sincerely sorry.

Anyone who flames you for being "unskilled" is in the wrong. If you're underperforming for the group, they should simply try to teach you what you're doing wrong, or find someone with the required experience and skill. There's nothing wrong with being inexperienced, but if you're going to attempt higher-difficulty dungeons you should be humble about your skill level and be willing and ready to improve if necessary for your group.