The bow is just in a weird place where its hard to make it useful both in PvP and PvE. Its easy to see it being useless or underpowered in PvE but not when its OP. Finding a reasonable balance is not that easy.

KingYogi415 wrote: »

Since my sarcastic rainbow comment was removed for being "rude"

I guess I will just have to resort to being honest.

Bow are all ready BIS for PVEand PVP. Feel free to Roleplay an archer, just don't expect double bow to be META. If these people spent as much time playing the game as the doing they qq'ing maybe they will have learned enough to play effectively.

Are we allowed to disagree with people on the forum? or is that too rude.

So thankful ZOS pays people to keep the forums a "safe space" it's not like we could use in-game gm's or anything....

Meh.

False DW is BIS in pve for both magicka builds and stamina builds try again.

If you're against bow and staff dps parity just outright say, stop acting immature and grow up.

Anti_Virus wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Thomosus wrote: »

Read my post before. Sais it all.

Magicka user cant use stamina abilities effectively
Stamina user cant use maficka effectively.

And if you are playing bow, you are stamina user. Yet one of these two has 50% damage of the other one.

Again, you are playing Bow by CHOICE... when you as a Stamina user have better weapon options for higher damage, but you are CHOOSING to go with a lower damage ranged option. Furthermore, depending on your class, there ARE Stamina abilities that are also high DPS. If everyone could sit back from the safety of the rafters and do as much DPS with a Bow as melee weapons, everyone would be doing it... Magicka users have no choice in weapons other than Staff, and there is no melee option. Thus, since Magicka players don't have a melee option, then their range only option has to compete with melee Stamina weapons. See, Stamina users have a CHOICE in weapons, Magicka users DO NOT. I think your complaint should, instead, be about the lack of Stamina abilities in class trees.... not about how a Stamina range weapon should have the same damage as a much more risky Stamina melee weapon.

Magicka users have class AND weapon skills to change from, Stam builds are FORCED into weapons specificly stamina ranged weapons, NBs are the only class with significant stam morphs but once again they are geared towards melee.

So where is the room for stamina based range? Oh right there is no point let's just all run tiny daggers screw weapon diversity

mSorcs can Go DW OR Staff and use Frags
mNBs can go DW OR Staff and use strife
Archers can go... ONLY BOW no class skills...
Oh and Bow deals leas dmg them Staff why?

There is no such class as 'Archer'... perhaps that's where people are confused. They're trying to CREATE a class out of a non-existant one. And people still keep missing the point, some intentionally I suspect because it would mean admitting they are wrong, or at least, that they expect the game to cater to how THEY want to play it. ZOS said, "Play the game your way" but they never said that playing your way would be equal to all other ways to play it. You can certainly run Bow/Bow, but you're not going to be AS effective, that is your CHOICE. People don't want to claim responsibility for their choices, but the game has a combat design for a reason, and just because you don't want to accept that reason doesn't mean it's not valid for a game with many millions of players to accommodate and balance for.

I never said there was an archer class, that's the problem there is no archer class but if you use a bow you are emulating and archer class. But its clear that ranged stamina builds are neglected if you don't care thats fine but some people including zos do and this thread is here to fix that discussion. If Zos didn't want archery in the game bow wouldn't exist.

No one is asking for BOW/BOW to be top dps. Stop with the false assumptions and pay attention it too much to ask for bow to pull decent dps without getting kicked from trials?

Btw you danced around my statement so is it ok for bow to pull less dps then staff dispite magicka players having options to choose from in terms of weapons.

Funny, if you had read these threads from the start, you'd have seen my explanation of WHY Staff does more damage, because Magicka players cannot switch to any other 'Magicka' weapon, Staff is all they got... so if that is their only option, then of course ZOS has to make it powerful. Now, if they added a Magicka melee weapon, then you could argue against Staff damage. Again, these complaints should be lack of Stamina morphs in skill lines, not "But Magicka players have Staff AND skills".

Considering my main character, a StamSorc, is Bow/DW, and I use BOW as my primary weapon, I would say it goes back to skill and learning which abilities do the best damage when.

Also, the comment about ZOS caring, they're the ones who nerfed the Bow line from back when it was OP thanks to cries in PvP, they are giving us a buff to Hawkeye this patch, but I wouldn't expect anything more from them where Bow is concerned. They've already stated numerous times how Bow should never match a melee weapon because of risk vs reward... and I also explained why Staff (which is the ONLY weapon a Magicka player has access too) does decent damage... decent, NOT OP. In fact, if Staff was so OP, why are so many players still planning on running DW in their builds even after the upcoming changes to Destro staves? Why, because DW will still offer a better damage bonus than the buff to Staves will offer. So no, Staff is NOT OP, but again, it's the only 'weapon' magicka players have access too and should be competitive since it's their only choice for weapons.

ADarklore wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Thomosus wrote: »

Read my post before. Sais it all.

Magicka user cant use stamina abilities effectively
Stamina user cant use maficka effectively.

And if you are playing bow, you are stamina user. Yet one of these two has 50% damage of the other one.

Again, you are playing Bow by CHOICE... when you as a Stamina user have better weapon options for higher damage, but you are CHOOSING to go with a lower damage ranged option. Furthermore, depending on your class, there ARE Stamina abilities that are also high DPS. If everyone could sit back from the safety of the rafters and do as much DPS with a Bow as melee weapons, everyone would be doing it... Magicka users have no choice in weapons other than Staff, and there is no melee option. Thus, since Magicka players don't have a melee option, then their range only option has to compete with melee Stamina weapons. See, Stamina users have a CHOICE in weapons, Magicka users DO NOT. I think your complaint should, instead, be about the lack of Stamina abilities in class trees.... not about how a Stamina range weapon should have the same damage as a much more risky Stamina melee weapon.

Magicka users have class AND weapon skills to change from, Stam builds are FORCED into weapons specificly stamina ranged weapons, NBs are the only class with significant stam morphs but once again they are geared towards melee.

So where is the room for stamina based range? Oh right there is no point let's just all run tiny daggers screw weapon diversity

mSorcs can Go DW OR Staff and use Frags
mNBs can go DW OR Staff and use strife
Archers can go... ONLY BOW no class skills...
Oh and Bow deals leas dmg them Staff why?

There is no such class as 'Archer'... perhaps that's where people are confused. They're trying to CREATE a class out of a non-existant one. And people still keep missing the point, some intentionally I suspect because it would mean admitting they are wrong, or at least, that they expect the game to cater to how THEY want to play it. ZOS said, "Play the game your way" but they never said that playing your way would be equal to all other ways to play it. You can certainly run Bow/Bow, but you're not going to be AS effective, that is your CHOICE. People don't want to claim responsibility for their choices, but the game has a combat design for a reason, and just because you don't want to accept that reason doesn't mean it's not valid for a game with many millions of players to accommodate and balance for.

I never said there was an archer class, that's the problem there is no archer class but if you use a bow you are emulating and archer class. But its clear that ranged stamina builds are neglected if you don't care thats fine but some people including zos do and this thread is here to fix that discussion. If Zos didn't want archery in the game bow wouldn't exist.

No one is asking for BOW/BOW to be top dps. Stop with the false assumptions and pay attention it too much to ask for bow to pull decent dps without getting kicked from trials?

Btw you danced around my statement so is it ok for bow to pull less dps then staff dispite magicka players having options to choose from in terms of weapons.

Funny, if you had read these threads from the start, you'd have seen my explanation of WHY Staff does more damage, because Magicka players cannot switch to any other 'Magicka' weapon, Staff is all they got... so if that is their only option, then of course ZOS has to make it powerful. Now, if they added a Magicka melee weapon, then you could argue against Staff damage. Again, these complaints should be lack of Stamina morphs in skill lines, not "But Magicka players have Staff AND skills".

Considering my main character, a StamSorc, is Bow/DW, and I use BOW as my primary weapon, I would say it goes back to skill and learning which abilities do the best damage when.

Also, the comment about ZOS caring, they're the ones who nerfed the Bow line from back when it was OP thanks to cries in PvP, they are giving us a buff to Hawkeye this patch, but I wouldn't expect anything more from them where Bow is concerned. They've already stated numerous times how Bow should never match a melee weapon because of risk vs reward... and I also explained why Staff (which is the ONLY weapon a Magicka player has access too) does decent damage... decent, NOT OP. In fact, if Staff was so OP, why are so many players still planning on running DW in their builds even after the upcoming changes to Destro staves? Why, because DW will still offer a better damage bonus than the buff to Staves will offer. So no, Staff is NOT OP, but again, it's the only 'weapon' magicka players have access too and should be competitive since it's their only choice for weapons.

You are still taking about something ... that mages have no other choice than staff

So what? Why would they need more? They dont need to switch to other type of weapon. They have enaugh class and non class abilites to fill two bars.

Just becouse stamina right now has 3 choices, lets "nerf" stamina weapons, becouse for "your" reason?
Where the sense in that?
And actualy, mages have 2 staves which give magicka much more power, since they can switch to restoration and heal the crap out of them.

Your logic is only based on this sentence "Mages have 1 weapon and Stamina has 3 weapons"
So next patch tanks are gonna be top damage becouse they can have only Shield and 1Hand?
Becouse that is your logic, tanks cannot switch and have no other choice.

"See and thats the problem, everyone is like ... but there only ONE WAY to play this character like this. Yes one build is always best, but u wanna tell that theres one build and other builds have 30-40% less damage output? It should not matter what build I do, it should not be such a difference.[

EDIT TO CORRECT QUOTE ISSUE.

Sorry but i have to say if that is what you believe we cannot ever come close to agreeing and I hope you never ever get to decide any single aspect of how this game works.

THE PLAYER CHOICES should always matter!
THE PLAYER CHOICES are the only things we as players bring to this game.

The build is frankly shorthand for practically every decision with long lasting consequences we make and if i were told a game existed where "it wont matter what build i do it wont be much of a difference" then i would avoid that game like the plague for a MMO kind of thing.

its akin to setting up ALT-CHESS where "the moves you make wont matter much" because your moves in chess are the only choices you have and if we dont want choices to make that much of a difference in outcome... Well, why would i be there if my choices didn't matter?

i don't go to eateries where they choose the food i get and my choices dont matter.
i dont go to theaters where they choose the movies i see and my choices wont matter.
i dont play MMO where my long-lasting choices on build don't matter much either.

bow as key lynchpin for back bar top dps and as not the best front bar for dps is a trade-off of benefits that means bow gets a lot of play across a lot of content... but the other weapons do too.

ADarklore wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Thomosus wrote: »

Read my post before. Sais it all.

Magicka user cant use stamina abilities effectively
Stamina user cant use maficka effectively.

And if you are playing bow, you are stamina user. Yet one of these two has 50% damage of the other one.

Again, you are playing Bow by CHOICE... when you as a Stamina user have better weapon options for higher damage, but you are CHOOSING to go with a lower damage ranged option. Furthermore, depending on your class, there ARE Stamina abilities that are also high DPS. If everyone could sit back from the safety of the rafters and do as much DPS with a Bow as melee weapons, everyone would be doing it... Magicka users have no choice in weapons other than Staff, and there is no melee option. Thus, since Magicka players don't have a melee option, then their range only option has to compete with melee Stamina weapons. See, Stamina users have a CHOICE in weapons, Magicka users DO NOT. I think your complaint should, instead, be about the lack of Stamina abilities in class trees.... not about how a Stamina range weapon should have the same damage as a much more risky Stamina melee weapon.

Magicka users have class AND weapon skills to change from, Stam builds are FORCED into weapons specificly stamina ranged weapons, NBs are the only class with significant stam morphs but once again they are geared towards melee.

So where is the room for stamina based range? Oh right there is no point let's just all run tiny daggers screw weapon diversity

mSorcs can Go DW OR Staff and use Frags
mNBs can go DW OR Staff and use strife
Archers can go... ONLY BOW no class skills...
Oh and Bow deals leas dmg them Staff why?

There is no such class as 'Archer'... perhaps that's where people are confused. They're trying to CREATE a class out of a non-existant one. And people still keep missing the point, some intentionally I suspect because it would mean admitting they are wrong, or at least, that they expect the game to cater to how THEY want to play it. ZOS said, "Play the game your way" but they never said that playing your way would be equal to all other ways to play it. You can certainly run Bow/Bow, but you're not going to be AS effective, that is your CHOICE. People don't want to claim responsibility for their choices, but the game has a combat design for a reason, and just because you don't want to accept that reason doesn't mean it's not valid for a game with many millions of players to accommodate and balance for.

I never said there was an archer class, that's the problem there is no archer class but if you use a bow you are emulating and archer class. But its clear that ranged stamina builds are neglected if you don't care thats fine but some people including zos do and this thread is here to fix that discussion. If Zos didn't want archery in the game bow wouldn't exist.

No one is asking for BOW/BOW to be top dps. Stop with the false assumptions and pay attention it too much to ask for bow to pull decent dps without getting kicked from trials?

Btw you danced around my statement so is it ok for bow to pull less dps then staff dispite magicka players having options to choose from in terms of weapons.

Funny, if you had read these threads from the start, you'd have seen my explanation of WHY Staff does more damage, because Magicka players cannot switch to any other 'Magicka' weapon, Staff is all they got... so if that is their only option, then of course ZOS has to make it powerful. Now, if they added a Magicka melee weapon, then you could argue against Staff damage. Again, these complaints should be lack of Stamina morphs in skill lines, not "But Magicka players have Staff AND skills".

Considering my main character, a StamSorc, is Bow/DW, and I use BOW as my primary weapon, I would say it goes back to skill and learning which abilities do the best damage when.

Also, the comment about ZOS caring, they're the ones who nerfed the Bow line from back when it was OP thanks to cries in PvP, they are giving us a buff to Hawkeye this patch, but I wouldn't expect anything more from them where Bow is concerned. They've already stated numerous times how Bow should never match a melee weapon because of risk vs reward... and I also explained why Staff (which is the ONLY weapon a Magicka player has access too)does decent damage... decent, NOT OP. In fact, if Staff was so OP, why are so many players still planning on running DW in their builds even after the upcoming changes to Destro staves? Why, because DW will still offer a better damage bonus than the buff to Staves will offer. So no, Staff is NOT OP, but again, it's the only 'weapon' magicka players have access too and should be competitive since it's their only choice for weapons.

You keep repeating a stament that I never said.

I never said bow should match melee dps you keep putting words in my mouth to prove a claim that no one is making. I said bow should match staff dps.

I never said staff was OP once agian putting words in my mouth.

In bold you're wrong but you keep ignoring my statement, you aren't forced you use a staff you can equip DW swords and pull better dps, hence why Zos buffed staff passives.

In italics you just contradicted yourself by saying magicka builds don't have options then claim that they use DW because it deals more dmg.

Also you have other options for staff dps you once again danced around the statement, do you think staff should deal more dmg than bow dispite mag builds having options?

Bow does not equal DW or 2H these are Melee weapons if we have a crossbow and bow skill lines then your argument would make sense

Magicka builds have ranged class skills and can use them with any weapon.

Ya need to get in pvp and get razor caltrops to mix in with your bow dots..mass damage. Good for pvp and pve

Make the bow have even a longer range than a staff without buffing damage. Twice the range, that way the current loss of damage makes more sense. It would only get about 2 more seconds of shooting before getting hit by gap closers, and being overwhelmed by melee.

For me the only problem with bow is that it's range is a hairs breadth longer than gap closers, it should be a lot longer than what it is. Increase the range of Staves as well, just do less damage the farther out you go with those.

Thomosus wrote: »

People stop saying bow has some benefits.

It has the same benefits as mages.

My CHOICE is to play archer and be on the same level as others, that choiche at this moment is hardly achievable.

People need to stop repeating themself as this is starting to happen here

You get to choose what you play - you do not get to just choose what the results of that are in game.

if it was someone else would choose to have the opposite result against you when fighting you and you would be back here complaining.

ZakuBeta wrote: »

Make the bow have even a longer range than a staff without buffing damage. Twice the range, that way the current loss of damage makes more sense. It would only get about 2 more seconds of shooting before getting hit by gap closers, and being overwhelmed by melee.

For me the only problem with bow is that it's range is a hairs breadth longer than gap closers, it should be a lot longer than what it is. Increase the range of Staves as well, just do less damage the farther out you go with those.

No just lower the cast time and travel time on snipe, while lowering the dmg a bit. That's all you need for bow to be good.

Baconlad wrote: »

The problem they have right now, is how do you balance the bow without buffibg the backbar builds it currrntly is on? How do you buff the bow without buffing the PvP aspect of it? Cause if you just buff bow damage, then you buff the current DW dps meta and the bow is right back where it was. They need to figure out a way that encourages players to stay on the bow bar more or encourage players to doublebar the weapon. Eagle ( hawk?) eye passive is great, but i think it needs to last a bit longer and stack higher (even more than new buff to it with homestead).

I will be building a pure templar bow build, double bow, ranged fights, and i intend to figure out a way to pull 25k DPS ALONE with out any outside buffs than i can provide myself. Well see how strong it is...i do not have high expectations.

I will say that when played with a decebt rotation and decent gear a bow build should still do well enough for all fourman content, its the trials where its a bit iffy

It's only the two abilities we use on our back bar that would cause problems with the stamina meta. There's lots of room to improve the other 3. Adding a Major Brutality buff to one of those 3 would be a good start.

KingYogi415 wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

KingYogi415 wrote: »

Since my sarcastic rainbow comment was removed for being "rude"

I guess I will just have to resort to being honest.

Bow are all ready BIS for PVEand PVP. Feel free to Roleplay an archer, just don't expect double bow to be META. If these people spent as much time playing the game as the doing they qq'ing maybe they will have learned enough to play effectively.

Are we allowed to disagree with people on the forum? or is that too rude.

So thankful ZOS pays people to keep the forums a "safe space" it's not like we could use in-game gm's or anything....

Meh.

False DW is BIS in pve for both magicka builds and stamina builds try again.

If you're against bow and staff dps parity just outright say, stop acting immature and grow up.

Are you trolling? for mag dps Double staff is BIS were duel wield gets left behind. double duel wield is not a thing/

Bow is BIS, so is DW for stam. Running double of either would not be.

The only one trolling is you. He is using 2 hand melee weapon for all the strikes, play the video on 1080p and put it on fullscreen. Or You wanna tell me he is fighting with bow on melee range?

Oh my god, we were all so stupid, we though bow is for range, but its actualy for melee combat.

Yes that was sarcastic, becouse I cant believe what you said was not troll.

KingYogi415 wrote: »

@Thomosus

You can clearly see him kill people with a heavy BOW attack > ambush > incap strike all on the BOW bar.

So yes he is killing people at "meele" range. Not sure what's hard to understand about this....

Have you even watched the video?

Note the skills on each bar, his 2-hander only has one attack move that is magic based and used for a speed buff. Hes running barrier on the 2-hand bar as well.

Yes he is weaving 2 hand light attack, but every kill is on the stupidly overpowered bow bar.

Seeing video evidence of you being wrong must be upsetting, but you can't just make up facts because you don't like feeling stupid.

Cheers!

No I dont see anything related to bow there. All what I see, is him using class abilities, which no, bow doesnt not use.