sickboy2808 wrote: »

I have just pre ordered Morrowind and im sure like others, i cant wait to go exploring and questing in the new zone. Not only that, ZOS are bringing us another Trial which i really hope is not going to be a pure dps race. I still have not been able to complete any Vet Trial in this game because as an older player my reactions and thinking are alot slower these days and i also cant smash my keyboard buttons as fast as other players in this game. I just really hope this new trial wont be all about high dps and instead some sort of other interesting tactics or mechanics.

welcome to the age of animation cancelling where its not about situational awareness, its just about how fast you can cancel animation of one skill to do another skill and repeat on through a cycle. bet anything if you were to take animation cancelling everyone doing 30-55k dps would drop by 200% dps.

AzuraKin wrote: »

sickboy2808 wrote: »

I have just pre ordered Morrowind and im sure like others, i cant wait to go exploring and questing in the new zone. Not only that, ZOS are bringing us another Trial which i really hope is not going to be a pure dps race. I still have not been able to complete any Vet Trial in this game because as an older player my reactions and thinking are alot slower these days and i also cant smash my keyboard buttons as fast as other players in this game. I just really hope this new trial wont be all about high dps and instead some sort of other interesting tactics or mechanics.

welcome to the age of animation cancelling where its not about situational awareness, its just about how fast you can cancel animation of one skill to do another skill and repeat on through a cycle. bet anything if you were to take animation cancelling everyone doing 30-55k dps would drop by 200% dps.

Step into any vet trial without situational awareness and see how long you will last. Understanding of mechanics and being able to stay alive is more important then your DPS. Dead DD is worthless DD

Go play a normal trial and stop bugging us about vet trials. They are for the best, so let us play them. And yes, some of us do enjoy the crazy heart-attack inducing situations trials can put us in.

here i was hoping the exact opposite...
top players are bored with this game when we no lunar drop hard-mode rakkhat
they said this is for END game players since we barely get anything as much as everyone claims we get catered to.
you have other trials to pug/casually clear with lower than 40k dps even normal vmol is easy now for avg people

cpuScientist wrote: »

magnusthorek wrote: »

It would indeed be very nice to actually have fun doing a trial. All of them so far are too stressful on veteran and/or HM because there are too much happening at same time preventing you to, I don't know, appreciate The Mage's robes or take a closer look to Rakkhat's room.

I know it's silly but part of the magnificent world of TES are the details.

Great news the normal ones are just for you!

Not really. I've completed all of Craglorn's in HM and vMoL. But it's not fun, it's more like a job rather than a sightseeing and HMs (which only applies to veteran as consequence) have indeed different visual elements during last bosses' fights

What else it can be theres 12 guys, probably 2 tank and 3-4 healer and the rest just stand? Feel themselves useless.

AzuraKin wrote: »

sickboy2808 wrote: »

I have just pre ordered Morrowind and im sure like others, i cant wait to go exploring and questing in the new zone. Not only that, ZOS are bringing us another Trial which i really hope is not going to be a pure dps race. I still have not been able to complete any Vet Trial in this game because as an older player my reactions and thinking are alot slower these days and i also cant smash my keyboard buttons as fast as other players in this game. I just really hope this new trial wont be all about high dps and instead some sort of other interesting tactics or mechanics.

welcome to the age of animation cancelling where its not about situational awareness, its just about how fast you can cancel animation of one skill to do another skill and repeat on through a cycle. bet anything if you were to take animation cancelling everyone doing 30-55k dps would drop by 200% dps.

No situation awareness required? Lol, surely you havent tried vMoL.

Vet trials are DPS races only if you are running for score in order to qualify for the leader boards. Otherwise you can do them with moderate DPS - if each DD can pull at least 25K you're fine - if there's sufficient group coordination and knowledge of mechanics. Normal ones are faceroll easy. Those can be easily done by people just into CPs, running crafted gear only and pulling 10-15K. You can run them once or twice to know the mechanics for vet, but then they become boring.

@Surgee wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

I hope and presume its going to be harder than Maw of Lorkhaj or at least at the same level of difficulty. We need DPS checks whether people like it or not, because it does determine player skill to a certain extent. We also need some more team coordination mechanics like the Lunar Phase on Rakkhat or the entire Twins fight, but we shouldn't be able to burn and skip these mechanics. And we need some creativity, which I'm sure we will get, in terms of positionning, cause the whole "stack and burn" on every boss is getting old...

DPS in most cases determine the player ability to copy the most popular cancer build to date from Youtube. It has nothing to do with skill. Also, if DPS is what matters most, why would anyone run support abilities and support sets? This game should encourage team play not a DPS race. No wonder it's so hard now to find anyone that will support a group with abilities and set effects. You should try playing Destiny. It proves that dungeons can be made very hard, without pumping 200000 million hp into mobs, by simply adding mechanics that require a good communication between players. Everyone have a role there, but killing mobs is just a side activity. That's what ESO should try. At the moment it's all just going from room to room and killing everything while avoiding red circles. Very shallow and repetitive.

Ok, if it has nothing to do with skill, try to copy any "cancer build" and pull 50k dps. And pls record this! Prove that there's no skill involved.
Also in vet MoL you cannot just stand and dps... If you try to do that, you'll likely just wipe the whole team.
And Im not sure ESO playerbase is ready for more mechanic-based content. vMoL is still impossible for the majority of players, even though you can beat it with 20-25k dps from every dd. But in training runs dps usually isnt an issue. Exploding each other, failing at killing shades at backyard (let me remind you that shades have 1 hp and assassins have around 30k), getting cursed... all these things make vMoL relatively difficult.
So... Be careful with what you wish for...

i agree with op rather than a dps race, i think zos should move away from that and if they want to go to end game challange content then make it more about movement, that the movement of the group has to be right and not the dps, say like the aoe's from the manti, platforms people have to stand on to open doors, but the order the platforms are, are based on a random gen, i feel for people who can't do the trails, but what i hate more is this elite behaviour creeping in to the game, like if you don't have x dps of like 30k (which i can do in my sleep) or have the lastest thing which is going around, you must have
RaidNotifier or you cant go on the trail, so trails that are based on movement rather than dps if zos does not want this to continue would be nice (i could shame and name the people behind this pushing the elist favour forward but i wont)

p;s i do end game content

sickboy2808 wrote: »

Its been good reading all the replies which above post reminded me that a Guild that im in requires at least 30k dps and already a Vet Achievement to even be allowed to join a Trial run. Well if more and more guilds want this sort of requirement it will be the same old guild/players that are on your Leaderboards so where is the fun in that? Also to another poster(soz on phone cant quote) I had done all Vet Dungs long time ago but as a Tank which i loved, but then ZOS decided to bring the IC Vet Dung out where the 3rd boss i couldnt Tank and had to do damage to portals hence the reason i switched to DD in the first place. So much for Play as you want then hey.

>Assuming that those players who didnt pass dps checks cant join guilds with lesser dps requirements or form their own guilds so that they can learn the trials and compete with other teams.

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

@Surgee wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

I hope and presume its going to be harder than Maw of Lorkhaj or at least at the same level of difficulty. We need DPS checks whether people like it or not, because it does determine player skill to a certain extent. We also need some more team coordination mechanics like the Lunar Phase on Rakkhat or the entire Twins fight, but we shouldn't be able to burn and skip these mechanics. And we need some creativity, which I'm sure we will get, in terms of positionning, cause the whole "stack and burn" on every boss is getting old...

DPS in most cases determine the player ability to copy the most popular cancer build to date from Youtube. It has nothing to do with skill. Also, if DPS is what matters most, why would anyone run support abilities and support sets? This game should encourage team play not a DPS race. No wonder it's so hard now to find anyone that will support a group with abilities and set effects. You should try playing Destiny. It proves that dungeons can be made very hard, without pumping 200000 million hp into mobs, by simply adding mechanics that require a good communication between players. Everyone have a role there, but killing mobs is just a side activity. That's what ESO should try. At the moment it's all just going from room to room and killing everything while avoiding red circles. Very shallow and repetitive.

Ok, if it has nothing to do with skill, try to copy any "cancer build" and pull 50k dps. And pls record this! Prove that there's no skill involved.
Also in vet MoL you cannot just stand and dps... If you try to do that, you'll likely just wipe the whole team.
And Im not sure ESO playerbase is ready for more mechanic-based content. vMoL is still impossible for the majority of players, even though you can beat it with 20-25k dps from every dd. But in training runs dps usually isnt an issue. Exploding each other, failing at killing shades at backyard (let me remind you that shades have 1 hp and assassins have around 30k), getting cursed... all these things make vMoL relatively difficult.
So... Be careful with what you wish for...

It's very easy to copy cancer build if the gear that is required is within your reach. One has to really lack of intelligence to not be able to follow a step by step guide. Using the new set up is just a matter of few days of getting used to. As for the mechanics you've mentioned that's exactly what I said - kill stuff and avoid red (curse etc), occasionally avoid something else. By advanced team play mechanics, I mean scenarios like this:

- The boss can only be harmed by a player that has a special artifact. As soon as players try to get in a damage range to the boss, an AOE kills them
- team get's split into 4 smaller group
- team A needs to survive the boss while waiting for other teams to return
- team B goes into death sleep. Their spirits leave their bodies. They appear in the underworld dark maze as spirits and they need to retrieve the artifact that can harm the boss. Bodies of Team B are in the room that needs to be protected. If any of the bodies die, it's a wipe.
- Team C is far, protecting the bodies of team B from big enemies by using siege weapons
- Team D is there on the ground in the middle of the action, protection the room from small, quick adds that are hard to stop with siege weapons. All the adds die easily but deal massive damage to the soulless bodies of team B.
- One single player have an overview of the maze that team B is in, trying to lead them to the artifact. He also needs to opens various gates for them.
- Once team B have the artifact, they need to go to a teleport that will bring them back to their bodies.
- Artifact sucks the life out of the player that carries it, so it needs to be passed every 10 seconds. It also protects all other players that are near by from AOE.
- When team B is back in their bodies, all the teams have to make their way back to the boss (team A is there waiting, surviving)
- Now it's time to attack. The player that has the artifact, needs to activate it to create a dome of protection in 18m radius that will shield everyone from bosses AOE. The team needs to move together toward the boss with the artifact active. Boss takes significant amount of damage from players. Attack lasts 15 seconds and always take around 1/3 of bosses hp
- Rinse and repeat (random roles again)

Now that's a teamwork challenge. Destiny had similar stuff to this. IMO this is the way to go in ESO if they want more players to try trials. At the moment 95% won't ever try it because of lack of gear or DPS. This forces everyone to pursue the same end game builds. ZOS just sucks at creating interesting gameplay. They need to get a bit creative.

@Surgee wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

@Surgee wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

I hope and presume its going to be harder than Maw of Lorkhaj or at least at the same level of difficulty. We need DPS checks whether people like it or not, because it does determine player skill to a certain extent. We also need some more team coordination mechanics like the Lunar Phase on Rakkhat or the entire Twins fight, but we shouldn't be able to burn and skip these mechanics. And we need some creativity, which I'm sure we will get, in terms of positionning, cause the whole "stack and burn" on every boss is getting old...

DPS in most cases determine the player ability to copy the most popular cancer build to date from Youtube. It has nothing to do with skill. Also, if DPS is what matters most, why would anyone run support abilities and support sets? This game should encourage team play not a DPS race. No wonder it's so hard now to find anyone that will support a group with abilities and set effects. You should try playing Destiny. It proves that dungeons can be made very hard, without pumping 200000 million hp into mobs, by simply adding mechanics that require a good communication between players. Everyone have a role there, but killing mobs is just a side activity. That's what ESO should try. At the moment it's all just going from room to room and killing everything while avoiding red circles. Very shallow and repetitive.

Ok, if it has nothing to do with skill, try to copy any "cancer build" and pull 50k dps. And pls record this! Prove that there's no skill involved.
Also in vet MoL you cannot just stand and dps... If you try to do that, you'll likely just wipe the whole team.
And Im not sure ESO playerbase is ready for more mechanic-based content. vMoL is still impossible for the majority of players, even though you can beat it with 20-25k dps from every dd. But in training runs dps usually isnt an issue. Exploding each other, failing at killing shades at backyard (let me remind you that shades have 1 hp and assassins have around 30k), getting cursed... all these things make vMoL relatively difficult.
So... Be careful with what you wish for...

It's very easy to copy cancer build if the gear that is required is within your reach. One has to really lack of intelligence to not be able to follow a step by step guide. Using the new set up is just a matter of few days of getting used to. As for the mechanics you've mentioned that's exactly what I said - kill stuff and avoid red (curse etc), occasionally avoid something else. By advanced team play mechanics, I mean scenarios like this:

- The boss can only be harmed by a player that has a special artifact. As soon as players try to get in a damage range to the boss, an AOE kills them
- team get's split into 4 smaller group
- team A needs to survive the boss while waiting for other teams to return
- team B goes into death sleep. Their spirits leave their bodies. They appear in the underworld dark maze as spirits and they need to retrieve the artifact that can harm the boss. Bodies of Team B are in the room that needs to be protected. If any of the bodies die, it's a wipe.
- Team C is far, protecting the bodies of team B from big enemies by using siege weapons
- Team D is there on the ground in the middle of the action, protection the room from small, quick adds that are hard to stop with siege weapons. All the adds die easily but deal massive damage to the soulless bodies of team B.
- One single player have an overview of the maze that team B is in, trying to lead them to the artifact. He also needs to opens various gates for them.
- Once team B have the artifact, they need to go to a teleport that will bring them back to their bodies.
- Artifact sucks the life out of the player that carries it, so it needs to be passed every 10 seconds. It also protects all other players that are near by from AOE.
- When team B is back in their bodies, all the teams have to make their way back to the boss (team A is there waiting, surviving)
- Now it's time to attack. The player that has the artifact, needs to activate it to create a dome of protection in 18m radius that will shield everyone from bosses AOE. The team needs to move together toward the boss with the artifact active. Boss takes significant amount of damage from players. Attack lasts 15 seconds and always take around 1/3 of bosses hp
- Rinse and repeat (random roles again)

Now that's a teamwork challenge. Destiny had similar stuff to this. IMO this is the way to go in ESO if they want more players to try trials. At the moment 95% won't ever try it because of lack of gear or DPS. This forces everyone to pursue the same end game builds. ZOS just sucks at creating interesting gameplay. They need to get a bit creative.

You have all the gear and crafting skills on pts, so please prove that anyone can copy a build and be as effective as a person who posted the guide. If its easy, why wont you show this to us? I can even pay you 100k gold on EU server if you demonstrate 40-50k vet bloodspawn test on a build you just copied.
Regarding the mechanics part... Do you realize that releasing something like this would make the trial impossible for everyone who doesnt have a dedicated raid group? Have you even pugged nMoL? A lot of people fail on the last boss due to backyard mechanic (where 2 players have to go to another part of the map and destroy dromathra shadows), not to mention second boss.
I personally like mechanic-based difficulty, but in this game people are just trying to faceroll stuff and are complaining about "dps checks" when they fail. ZOS is already gravitating towards this type of difficulty (as opposed to old dungeons that are full of "damage sponge" bosses), but surprisingly they get a lot of whining. So I'm no so sure that average players want this type of challenge. People just assume that if they cant burn the bosses and ignore mechanics, it means that "dps check is too high, NERF!!!!".
As for competitive trial guilds, they will always choose people that are good at mechanics AND pull highest dps possible. Nothing is gonna change that.

@Surgee wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

@Surgee wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

@Surgee wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

I hope and presume its going to be harder than Maw of Lorkhaj or at least at the same level of difficulty. We need DPS checks whether people like it or not, because it does determine player skill to a certain extent. We also need some more team coordination mechanics like the Lunar Phase on Rakkhat or the entire Twins fight, but we shouldn't be able to burn and skip these mechanics. And we need some creativity, which I'm sure we will get, in terms of positionning, cause the whole "stack and burn" on every boss is getting old...

DPS in most cases determine the player ability to copy the most popular cancer build to date from Youtube. It has nothing to do with skill. Also, if DPS is what matters most, why would anyone run support abilities and support sets? This game should encourage team play not a DPS race. No wonder it's so hard now to find anyone that will support a group with abilities and set effects. You should try playing Destiny. It proves that dungeons can be made very hard, without pumping 200000 million hp into mobs, by simply adding mechanics that require a good communication between players. Everyone have a role there, but killing mobs is just a side activity. That's what ESO should try. At the moment it's all just going from room to room and killing everything while avoiding red circles. Very shallow and repetitive.

Ok, if it has nothing to do with skill, try to copy any "cancer build" and pull 50k dps. And pls record this! Prove that there's no skill involved.
Also in vet MoL you cannot just stand and dps... If you try to do that, you'll likely just wipe the whole team.
And Im not sure ESO playerbase is ready for more mechanic-based content. vMoL is still impossible for the majority of players, even though you can beat it with 20-25k dps from every dd. But in training runs dps usually isnt an issue. Exploding each other, failing at killing shades at backyard (let me remind you that shades have 1 hp and assassins have around 30k), getting cursed... all these things make vMoL relatively difficult.
So... Be careful with what you wish for...

It's very easy to copy cancer build if the gear that is required is within your reach. One has to really lack of intelligence to not be able to follow a step by step guide. Using the new set up is just a matter of few days of getting used to. As for the mechanics you've mentioned that's exactly what I said - kill stuff and avoid red (curse etc), occasionally avoid something else. By advanced team play mechanics, I mean scenarios like this:

- The boss can only be harmed by a player that has a special artifact. As soon as players try to get in a damage range to the boss, an AOE kills them
- team get's split into 4 smaller group
- team A needs to survive the boss while waiting for other teams to return
- team B goes into death sleep. Their spirits leave their bodies. They appear in the underworld dark maze as spirits and they need to retrieve the artifact that can harm the boss. Bodies of Team B are in the room that needs to be protected. If any of the bodies die, it's a wipe.
- Team C is far, protecting the bodies of team B from big enemies by using siege weapons
- Team D is there on the ground in the middle of the action, protection the room from small, quick adds that are hard to stop with siege weapons. All the adds die easily but deal massive damage to the soulless bodies of team B.
- One single player have an overview of the maze that team B is in, trying to lead them to the artifact. He also needs to opens various gates for them.
- Once team B have the artifact, they need to go to a teleport that will bring them back to their bodies.
- Artifact sucks the life out of the player that carries it, so it needs to be passed every 10 seconds. It also protects all other players that are near by from AOE.
- When team B is back in their bodies, all the teams have to make their way back to the boss (team A is there waiting, surviving)
- Now it's time to attack. The player that has the artifact, needs to activate it to create a dome of protection in 18m radius that will shield everyone from bosses AOE. The team needs to move together toward the boss with the artifact active. Boss takes significant amount of damage from players. Attack lasts 15 seconds and always take around 1/3 of bosses hp
- Rinse and repeat (random roles again)

Now that's a teamwork challenge. Destiny had similar stuff to this. IMO this is the way to go in ESO if they want more players to try trials. At the moment 95% won't ever try it because of lack of gear or DPS. This forces everyone to pursue the same end game builds. ZOS just sucks at creating interesting gameplay. They need to get a bit creative.

You have all the gear and crafting skills on pts, so please prove that anyone can copy a build and be as effective as a person who posted the guide. If its easy, why wont you show this to us? I can even pay you 100k gold on EU server if you demonstrate 40-50k vet bloodspawn test on a build you just copied.
Regarding the mechanics part... Do you realize that releasing something like this would make the trial impossible for everyone who doesnt have a dedicated raid group? Have you even pugged nMoL? A lot of people fail on the last boss due to backyard mechanic (where 2 players have to go to another part of the map and destroy dromathra shadows), not to mention second boss.
I personally like mechanic-based difficulty, but in this game people are just trying to faceroll stuff and are complaining about "dps checks" when they fail. ZOS is already gravitating towards this type of difficulty (as opposed to old dungeons that are full of "damage sponge" bosses), but surprisingly they get a lot of whining. So I'm no so sure that average players want this type of challenge. People just assume that if they cant burn the bosses and ignore mechanics, it means that "dps check is too high, NERF!!!!".
As for competitive trial guilds, they will always choose people that are good at mechanics AND pull highest dps possible. Nothing is gonna change that.

I don't play the PC version anymore. Left it almost 2 years ago. No PTS on console. Again, it's just following step by step guide form youtube. Where is the challenge in copying a build other than getting the gear and getting used to the skills? Please explain which part is so hard . As for the team work mechanics I proposed, they are very possible to do without a dedicated raid group at least on Xbox one, as everyone has a mic there (you can't buy a console without a mic, voice chat is mandatory). It's more problematic on PC as everyone just use text chat so I imagine that finding cooperating randoms is very hard.

I'm sorry, but if you think that gear and someone's build guarantees you high dps, you would be really disappointed if you could see the dps meter. Rotation affects your dps much more than gear (and you cant macro it, if you do, you'll probably die to the first oneshotting mechanic because you'd be locked in skill sequence). And most of boss fights in the new instances arent static and you have to pay attention to your surrounding all the time. You cant just mechanically repeat the rotation (and even that is apparently difficult, considering how many people are struggling with pulling 30+k numbers).
If you just spam your abilities randomly, you'll probably get your 10-15k dps (with good gear), but no more than that.
If this all would be as easy as you're trying to make it look like, no one ever would have issues with low dps.
Also, its worth mentioning that most of good dds arent copying builds, theyre theorycrafting and testing a lot. Thats how the meta is created, they dont just blindly decide that "aha, now Julianos will be the next FoTM!", they test all the options and compare. And yes, it requires a decent amount of out of the box thinking.
The people who just blindly follow arent usually that good. Yes, its a decent starting point, but if you want to be a top dps dd, youll have to develop your own skills.

I disagree about mechanics. Even though consoles have voice chat, how often do you pug vCoS succesfully? This dungeon isnt based on dps races, it just requires coordination. Or vMazzatun? Even vMoL doesnt require that much dps (assuming that you're not going for speedrun).

Because of the way the scoring system works it will be a dps race by perforce. There might be challenging mechanics that hinder dps, or require mixed group tasks, like managing lamias on serpent, but in the end it's like wishing for math without numbers.