Empirical Arguments Against Ebon

DRXHarbinger · January 2017

With Ebon though don't you have to be within a certain distance from tank? Like AA those on the other side of the mage don't get the buff, same for tanks warhorn which is what a 24m radius?

Xerton · January 2017

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

With Ebon though don't you have to be within a certain distance from tank? Like AA those on the other side of the mage don't get the buff, same for tanks warhorn which is what a 24m radius?

Have you even read the thread? Warden has a 5m radius!

DRXHarbinger · January 2017

Xerton wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

With Ebon though don't you have to be within a certain distance from tank? Like AA those on the other side of the mage don't get the buff, same for tanks warhorn which is what a 24m radius?

Have you even read the thread? Warden has a 5m radius!

Did you read my post? And did you read title. It's asking about....Ebon. not warden.

Xerton · January 2017

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Xerton wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

With Ebon though don't you have to be within a certain distance from tank? Like AA those on the other side of the mage don't get the buff, same for tanks warhorn which is what a 24m radius?

Have you even read the thread? Warden has a 5m radius!

Did you read my post? And did you read title. It's asking about....Ebon. not warden.

Ok this post answers my question: You did not read.
While the thread title does not say so, the OP statet, that Warden is more effective than Ebon.
So any argument that involves a too small range of Ebon is flawed as it is wayyyyy bigger than the range of Warden.

I currently don't have numbers for the range of Ebon, so if someone else could provide that please?

Wizball1987 · January 2017

Whats the bis trait for tanks in trials? Reinforce, sturdy, divines, nirn?

code65536 · January 2017

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

With Ebon though don't you have to be within a certain distance from tank? Like AA those on the other side of the mage don't get the buff, same for tanks warhorn which is what a 24m radius?

Yes, Ebon does have a limited range, just like Worm. The effective radius is 28 meters, which means that if the DPS is outside of Ebon's range, they are probably also outside of DPS range of the boss. This is a concern for some fights (e.g., the MoL twins), but is generally not a major issue.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · January 2017

Wizball1987 wrote: »

Whats the bis trait for tanks in trials? Reinforce, sturdy, divines, nirn?

I dont think there is such thing as BIS with tank traits. You can compensate for anything with CP and the gear you choose. Most tanks I know go Sturdy on small and infused on big pieces. Some go 7 sturdy. I think the reality is that traits like reinforced are really effective at raising resist caps, but its just not needed. On my tank build (I dont really tank trails) I go sturdy on small, Infused on big.

code65536 wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

With Ebon though don't you have to be within a certain distance from tank? Like AA those on the other side of the mage don't get the buff, same for tanks warhorn which is what a 24m radius?

Yes, Ebon does have a limited range, just like Worm. The effective radius is 28 meters, which means that if the DPS is outside of Ebon's range, they are probably also outside of DPS range of the boss. This is a concern for some fights (e.g., the MoL twins), but is generally not a major issue.

Spot on. I have never noticed ebon dropping on any VMOL boss fight unless I am in back room on last boss. Its a big radius.

hedna123b14_ESO · January 2017

amasuriel wrote: »

It seems like daily I have an argument about Ebon being best in slot for tanks. I give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are talking about just trials, because 4 man it is 100% not These people insist that not only is Ebon BiS, it's required for some trials.

Even for trials though, I contest it, and I have some numbers to aid my argument.
If you are going for full ultimate generation, Bloodspawn / Tava / Akaviri is what you need, no question.

If you are going to sacrifice some ultimate to help your group, you are giving up Tava or Akaviri for Ebon.

These same people, when I suggest using Lord Warden instead of Bloodspawn, scoff with great ferocity, because Blood Spawn is BiS understand

So here is a hand spreadsheet you can copy to play with:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tYY-wwA6kvhWvfV5o1DllhBsfQ23ANEk7cO9x_PvT_A/edit?usp=sharing

Here is the summary though. You can see that Warden actually adds quite a bit more survivability than Ebon, with 2 piece instead of 5. The radius is less of an issue than one might think in trials, since the majority of fights you are tightly stacked. Yes there are exceptions, but since the survivability is much better (not just the same), I think it's fair to say that anyone who argues Ebon is BiS would be very hypocritical not to consider Lord Warden BiS, especially since you then have the option of Alkosh / Akaviri or Tava / Warden, which is much better overall benefit than Ebon / Akaviri or Tava / Blood Spawn

Warden VS Ebon

Ebon is important in trials especially with hard hitting mechancs. It helps prevent one shots. No amount of mitigation helps with that. It is a must in trials.

hedna123b14_ESO · January 2017

amasuriel wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

I don't doubt the math, but the math does not take into account the realities and mechanics of the fight.

It's a game with a damage formula, the math is absolutely the reality. If you take X raw damage in ESO, with Y resistance and Z passives, you will subtract N hitpoints every time without fail.

If your argument is about the range of Warden, it's a separate debate. Indisputable though is that if you have a warden orb you will survive more damage than an extra 1k HP.

Yes you can have both, but most (not all of course) people I have encountered that insist that Ebon is required, also say that Warden is trash and should never be used (because Bloodspawn is BiS apparently), which to me highlights that they are not forming an opinion based on facts, but just strongly repeating what they have heard or seen without thought.

Empirical testing in trials like vMoL and SO which have high amounts of damage and large sections of the trial where you DO NOT stack the whole team together make warden useless. 1 tank typically runs alkosh/PA, while the other runs ebon and another set that depends on the group needs. Currently on live we have the ebon tank run worm while the healers run aether/spc and mending/spc. Other groups may have different setups. I can tell you from extensive experience that not running ebon has resulter in worse results for the group's survivability EVERY SINGLE time we have attempted it. It absolutely outperforms any damage reductiom sets because it increases your effective health. Its the same reason why tanky stam users with more armor mitigation are utter *** in trials in terms of survivability, they dont have the shields that magicka users posess and thus do not have the extra 15-20k effective health, making their survival a lot more difficult.

hedna123b14_ESO · January 2017

amasuriel wrote: »

It seems like daily I have an argument about Ebon being best in slot for tanks. I give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are talking about just trials, because 4 man it is 100% not These people insist that not only is Ebon BiS, it's required for some trials.

Even for trials though, I contest it, and I have some numbers to aid my argument.
If you are going for full ultimate generation, Bloodspawn / Tava / Akaviri is what you need, no question.

If you are going to sacrifice some ultimate to help your group, you are giving up Tava or Akaviri for Ebon.

These same people, when I suggest using Lord Warden instead of Bloodspawn, scoff with great ferocity, because Blood Spawn is BiS understand

So here is a hand spreadsheet you can copy to play with:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tYY-wwA6kvhWvfV5o1DllhBsfQ23ANEk7cO9x_PvT_A/edit?usp=sharing

Here is the summary though. You can see that Warden actually adds quite a bit more survivability than Ebon, with 2 piece instead of 5. The radius is less of an issue than one might think in trials, since the majority of fights you are tightly stacked. Yes there are exceptions, but since the survivability is much better (not just the same), I think it's fair to say that anyone who argues Ebon is BiS would be very hypocritical not to consider Lord Warden BiS, especially since you then have the option of Alkosh / Akaviri or Tava / Warden, which is much better overall benefit than Ebon / Akaviri or Tava / Blood Spawn

Warden VS Ebon

Also dont quiet understand your worksheet.
Incoming damage - 27000
Armor 10000
CP mitigation 18%
Warden buff 3870
Armor with warden = 13870. Mitigation from armor is calculated out of 66000 for players. This means that 13870 mitigation from armor and warden is equal to 13870/66000 = 21%. Incoming damage is reduced by CP and Armor multiplicatively so 27000 x (1 - .21) x (1- .18) = 17487 damage, or 487 more damage than you have health.

Without warden you would have 10000/66000 or 15% mitigation. This means that 27000 x (1-.15) x (1-.18) = 18785 damage or 1785 more damage than health. Ebon gives you 1118 health however most dps run with 5/1/1. This gives a 6% buff to all resource pools. Furthermore, gear bonuses apply before CP buffs to resources. CP buffs are calculated via the following formula: 1 + (CP^.56432)/100. For the next patch this number is equal to 1.199 or 19.9% increase. 19.9 % from CP and 6% from undaunted (they stack multiplicatively) means that the total modification to the Ebon buff is 1.199 x 1.06 = 1.271 or 27.1% meaning this health modifier becomes 1118 x 1.271 = 1421. 1785 -1421 = 364, which is the value that ebon could not mitigate. Note this value is SMALLER than the value we got from Warden thus proving my point that Ebon is better....
Drops mic...

idk · January 2017

amasuriel wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

amasuriel wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

I don't doubt the math, but the math does not take into account the realities and mechanics of the fight.

It's a game with a damage formula, the math is absolutely the reality. If you take X raw damage in ESO, with Y resistance and Z passives, you will subtract N hitpoints every time without fail.

If your argument is about the range of Warden, it's a separate debate. Indisputable though is that if you have a warden orb you will survive more damage than an extra 1k HP.

You showed that Warden adds more effective health than Ebon. I do not and did not dispute this.

You argued that Ebon is not BiS for trials. I vehemently dispute this.
Warden and Ebon are not mutually exclusive. For Rakkhat, we have both Ebon and Warden in group.

"BiS" isn't determined by abstract numbers. "BiS" is determined by practical experience and what actually works in reality. Your thread title says "empirical", yet it would appear that you do not know the definition of this word: "based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic"

The reality is that Ebon does help and that that Ebon's range means that it helps reliably. And any raid leader making a decision about what gear the tanks should run would be a fool to ignore factors like Ebon's range and Ebon's uptime. Even if Warden and Ebon were somehow mutually exclusive (which they aren't), I would still pick Ebon because it helps the entire raid instead of just the small handful who can remain within range of the tank. So, no, the range argument isn't "a separate debate". It's a crucial factor when making statements about what is and isn't "BiS".

Your spreadsheet has an error. Your "Remaining HP with Warden" row has B4+B7 instead of just B4. So the number you show is actually "Remaining HP with Warden and Ebon", not "Remaining HP with Warden". With that error corrected, Warden still comes out ahead for damage >17500 (Ebon will come out ahead for damage amounts below that), but the difference is quite a bit lower than what your spreadsheet suggests.

Thank you for taking the time to actually look at the sheet. I fixed it and will upload a new screenshot as well.

While admitting anything on the internet is bad form, I have to say that after fixing the sheet my argument is much weaker. When Warden was significantly stronger, when comparing 2 sets you can argue range vs stronger effect. With the effect being much closer after the fix in formula, it's much harder to make the argument.

As a side note, I know what empirical means but in a game based on math, observing mitigation and calculating mitigation are the same. Something like a DPS rotation I agree you need to try in practice because the theory can be different. Anyway.

This is a rare occurrence in the forums that someone recognizes and accepts the logical contributions someone adds to their thread. It is good to see.

However, Code is correct about observing the affects during actual game play in vet trials as a requirement for determining what is best for trial groups. There is no difference between theory crafting DPS and the use of tanking sets in a case like this. This is especially the case with the anti-stacking mechanisms that several dungeons have which would reduce the effectiveness of Warden and increase the effectiveness of Ebon. All trials have fights that greatly reduce the effectiveness of Warden because players must be spread out, even melee.

I would also take a look at Hedna's contributions as he makes good points.

Norn · January 2017

You're completely correct with the math. However this is not a this or that situation, you can easily have both active.

And most importantly while Ebon has 100% uptime on the buff naturally and also bigger range. Lord Warden, first needs to proc(highest uptime I've seen is 90% so far), second everyone needs to in the radius of the orb, which is considerably smaller than Ebon's radius.

amasuriel · January 2017

Yeah for anyone still poking in this thread, Ebon is better. My sheet doesn't take into account CP boost to Ebon either, making survivability gain from Ebon the same or better than warden, with no downtime and 6x the range.

If you want gear to help the DPS survive, Ebon is the way to go in trials. Yes you can run both.