[BUG] Purifying/Power of the Light PTS v2.7.3 (Don't let this go live)

Grumble_and_Grunt · January 2017

@Zinaroth It is clear from the post that it is not working as intended, I don't think many people will bother to make a thread on the PTS forums to bash on a functioning skill that if worked correctly would be more than ordinary. The sad thing is, when fixed will probably be a useless skill again, but to go live in its current state? Beyond broken.

Personally I await @RoyJade findings as he is more adept at reverse engineering mathematical anomalies than I am for sure. I think his findings will generally be similar to me and @Valve for how he is to go about testing it, but he'll just have numerical data to back it up. I mean he isn't in Hodor I think, but sure you can trust his findings when he manages to actually get on the bug ridden build of the latest PTS.

Junipus · January 2017

I agree that bypassing resistances and other things such as CP mitigation etc are a pain, but this gives templars a bit of useful burst. It's not as if situational templar play has been under-performing. If they removed the stacking so only one PL/PotL was able to store damage at any one time then that would be a a reasonable fix.

RoyJade · January 2017

Honestly, everyone can find the results I expect to get. It's just that my best ability is to think about every possible problem and how to determine it, and I love testing everything in order to have the most accuracy conclusion we can have ^^

I just need some numbers with precise background (knowing all sources of mitigations, exact damages, exact numbers of hits, sources of damages…) for a precise report to ZOS in order to make their job easier for fixing it.
From your test, we can actually conclude that the buildup is completely broken (that the main and most important point), and the final damage doesn't count any mitigation (which is fine if the buildup take mitigation in account).

Edit :

Junipus wrote: »

I agree that bypassing resistances and other things such as CP mitigation etc are a pain, but this gives templars a bit of useful burst. It's not as if situational templar play has been under-performing. If they removed the stacking so only one PL/PotL was able to store damage at any one time then that would be a a reasonable fix.

Well, bypassing mitigation seem fine to me, if the stored damage take them in account. If the damage buildup ignore mitigation, it would be broken because you would be able to store the maximum damage really easily. If the damage buildup take mitigation in account, it would be fine because the final damage would have already suffer from mitigation (that's why the final blast can't be blocked anymore, in my opinion).
For the simultaneous stacking, it seem fine when comparing to every other skills ingame who can stack (two curses, two embers -yes I know it have been fixed recently-, and other dots), but for this skill it may indeed be broken in pvp. If the first skill can store damage until it reach it's limit, then the second begin to store its own one, it would be fine to me too, because pve won't suffer and pvp won't have extremely-high burst in organized groups. But I highly doubt ZOS would be able to do something like this without a lot of bugs, at least not really fast.

Grumble_and_Grunt · January 2017

@RoyJade let me know what you find man and if need someone to spam you with it to get conclusive data just pm me. There was maintenance on PTS today no idea if it fixed crashes though.

@Junipus Yeah man I know, would be great if we did have a skill orientated around burst, I mean we lost that a long time ago with the proxy/DBoS Topping combo etc now Templar in PvP is kinda ok for me because of beam and Crescent sweep, but Beam was over performing and now we lost that and Crescent made stamina, so any Templar not playing a heal bot in PvP has to either go destro and take a hit from Sweeps dmg which I don't like to do either or find other means of burst with whatever ultimate (most likely DBoS).

I mean if they fixed stored dmg so to get the full 10k you had to put enormous pressure on the opponent, giving us lower values like 5/6/7k then it would still be really great burst for magicka and stamina Templar.

I also think the ability for allies to contribute to the build up should be removed too, to prevent it being spammed by tanks/healers etc who will just 'mark' people in large groups and dish out good dmg, either way the only options if the skill does hit hard, but not obscenely hard as it does at the moment is if you are going to make the threshold easier to reach to be meaningful then the threshold can not be as low as it is now, as well as can not have allies dmg contribution attribute to it imo. You can not balance the ceiling dmg at all, it will only be too high for the caster and way too low for groups who could theoretically hit the 10k explosion from stored dmg more times than not.

*This assuming the skill was working as intended*

usmcjdking · January 2017

Backlash works fine.

The damage tool tip is the max damage it will do. it is not the max damage it will store. If the stored damage begins to exceed the tooltip damage, each additional point will act like penetration.

It has always worked like this.

Baconlad · January 2017

I don't think it needed damage buff. Although the change to not allowing you to block it is nice. The only other change it really needed was that if it was purged, it immediately deals the damage stored. Anyway I was ducking around with it last night, I learned that I don't think this is really ever supposed to be a solo skill. I think it was always supposed to be a group skill for temp healers/ magtanks. I dropped on a lone magplar last night while at least 5 players were trying to bust through a magplars heals and mist, he was doing fine roughly at 60% health. He dropped block for a SPLIT second and purifying light hit the poor *** for 20.5k damage...he turned into a dead lion real quick. It was his fault for not purging it yes. But I think that so little players run the skill as is on live that many enemies just don't care for the expected tickle it normally deals.

Baconlad · January 2017

Soo...they either should leave the damage numbers how they are but not allow it to be blocked, or they should buff the percentage value to say 35% damage stored and leave the damage stored to only be stored by the caster WITH the new damage upfront. But realistically, I like how it works now, being a good tool for a healer to do damage through his teamates, but not being so great for 1v1.....thoughts?

Joy_Division · January 2017

I told ZoS last week that a 10K burst from a templar was OP.

At least they aren't listening to me when I argue templar skills are too good. ZoS's weird way of balance I guess.

Grumble_and_Grunt · January 2017

@Joy_Division Yes, tell me about it, I have been following the official Temp thread as well and seen your posts. These are dark times ahead of us.

Funny thing is, this was supposed to be the 'balance' patch for classes, yet as of PTS Build v2.7.3 they've broken core fundamental mechanics e.g. Crowd Control abilities as just one example.

At first I was hoping for good balance changes and now I am just hoping for a functioning game lol.

olsborg · January 2017

Im not surprised at all, wrobel and his team cant code for ***.

Cinbri · January 2017

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

@Joy_Division Yes, tell me about it, I have been following the official Temp thread as well and seen your posts. These are dark times ahead of us.

Funny thing is, this was supposed to be the 'balance' patch for classes, yet as of PTS Build v2.7.3 they've broken core fundamental mechanics e.g. Crowd Control abilities as just one example.

At first I was hoping for good balance changes and now I am just hoping for a functioning game lol.

One thing for sure - I won't share views on what balance is of someone who claim that Coagulated Blood scaled of missing magicka was more reliable than CB than can flat heal like BoL with 33% more healing based on lost hp.

Grumble_and_Grunt · January 2017

@Cinbri Except it doesn't heal like BoL don't kid yourself. reached much higher heals with the previous change than the current one as for reliability it was reliable to anyone who knows how to play the class, as well as punished poor play. (Will update when 33% missing health is fixed).

When I tested the CDB v2.7.2 it was really strong actually and you didn't have to have like f*** all magicka for it to pump out a heal similar to what CDB is as of v2.7.3 does, it synergised well with DK since every skill costs 3.5k+ and forced into HA which it also synergised well with sets like DR, but not necessary.

Their was validation to my claims, one you may not agree with. Sure the CBD looked good on paper and many probably QQ about the previous version 'I need to be low on magicka to heal' it simply didn't play out like that at all. Combine that with cheap AF embers heal. Any DK that didn't play PTS and had chance to use v2.7.2 on live would probably not have complained and welcomed the change imo, I know my DK friends did and were happy with it. They were also thrilled reading v2.7.3 too then when we tested there was just an overall sense of underwhelming. So don't come on the forums and spread over reactions like CDB is the next BoL/HTD when it isn't lol BoL/HTD is still superior despite tooltips (not to mention magicka return on HTD bugged or otherwise).

DK is almost always sub par 50% magicka in PvP duels or open world. That is just the way ZOS designed the class, not something I particularly agree on either, but the change worked well with the heal and encouraged good play too since DK still have OP embers heal, they should work in tangent with each other, e.g. using CDB for burst heal or when not in range to keep up embers etc. The new new CDB as said looks good on paper and may be better with the 33% missing health I mean sure it will benefit you and your brother since whenever I see you guys in Cyro you're on tank builds. Sure the scaling of missing health would do him wonders.

Not sure why came onto the thread to question my views on balance tbh. I've read your comments on forums, some of the things you suggest for Templar would make templar god mode, no wonder so many value your comments on the official threads because in past patches some of the buffs you have asked for were simply insane and the class bias is real. Not sure how that equates to balance? One example I remember correctly was asking for Temps to be able to take their own shards for resource return xD? Ye that's balance.

leepalmer95 · January 2017

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

@Cinbri Except it doesn't heal like BoL don't kid yourself. reached much higher heals with the previous change than the current one as for reliability it was reliable to anyone who knows how to play the class, as well as punished poor play. (Will update when 33% missing health is fixed).

When I tested the CDB v2.7.2 it was really strong actually and you didn't have to have like f*** all magicka for it to pump out a heal similar to what CDB is as of v2.7.3 does, it synergised well with DK since every skill costs 3.5k+ and forced into HA which it also synergised well with sets like DR, but not necessary.

Their was validation to my claims, one you may not agree with. Sure the CBD looked good on paper and many probably QQ about the previous version 'I need to be low on magicka to heal' it simply didn't play out like that at all. Combine that with cheap AF embers heal. Any DK that didn't play PTS and had chance to use v2.7.2 on live would probably not have complained and welcomed the change imo, I know my DK friends did and were happy with it. They were also thrilled reading v2.7.3 too then when we tested there was just an overall sense of underwhelming. So don't come on the forums and spread over reactions like CDB is the next BoL/HTD when it isn't lol BoL/HTD is still superior despite tooltips (not to mention magicka return on HTD bugged or otherwise).

DK is almost always sub par 50% magicka in PvP duels or open world. That is just the way ZOS designed the class, not something I particularly agree on either, but the change worked well with the heal and encouraged good play too since DK still have OP embers heal, they should work in tangent with each other, e.g. using CDB for burst heal or when not in range to keep up embers etc. The new new CDB as said looks good on paper and may be better with the 33% missing health I mean sure it will benefit you and your brother since whenever I see you guys in Cyro you're on tank builds. Sure the scaling of missing health would do him wonders.

Not sure why came onto the thread to question my views on balance tbh. I've read your comments on forums, some of the things you suggest for Templar would make templar god mode, no wonder so many value your comments on the official threads because in past patches some of the buffs you have asked for were simply insane and the class bias is real. Not sure how that equates to balance? One example I remember correctly was asking for Temps to be able to take their own shards for resource return xD? Ye that's balance.

Don't kid yourself the 2.7.2 CDH wasn't reliable at all.

A heal that healed better based off missing magicka? How can that be reliable? You have bigger heals for bad resource management, what good is a 17k heal if it's only 17k when you have 4k magicka left?

Grumble_and_Grunt · January 2017

Here we go, outdated ofc, but the suggestions you made @Cinbri would still be relevant. How is any of this balanced lol? Seems as long as it's a buff to Templar it's balanced, yet question my integrity because of my opinion on the validation of the functionality of one skill xD?

Cinbri wrote: »

Post 2.3.2 suggestions:

a. Revamp Total Dark and make it work as DK Scales.
b. Revamp Radiant Ward to apply some sort of CC upon cast with little damage shield.
As result to it: In PvP - templar will become as Wrobel wanted - enemies will be forced to come to melee to kill templar and in melee templar will be able to slowing them by CC. In PvE - tanking will still be not as viable as DK, but it will contradict with fact that templar better healer at least. Change of Radiant Ward will completely remove such problems as percentage skills in PvP and shieldstacking problem for this morph. Also it will cover another Eclipse problem - only hard hitting range stamina ability is Snipe, but Snipe has much longer range and Eclipse won't be able to reach it, aslo stamina build have high stamina regen and break free will be almost unnoticable for them while mana cost for Eclipse is high.
2. Another way to fix it:
a. Make Spear Shards to have unique synnergy that can be activated by its own caster.
b. Make Total Dark to reflect all types of abilities and increase cap to 3 targets.
As result those 2 changes will fix problem of self-sustainable templar tanks both in PvP and PvE and will negate fact that templar as tanking class without active stamina returns.
3. And last way to fix it: (some unique)
a. to remove such problems as percentage skills in PvP and shieldstacking problem, revamp Radiant Ward to work like: self-buff for 20 seconds that will grant Major Evasion buff(20%) and will have additional effect to help with sustain:
every dodge grants returns 1000 stamina to caster.l

Ashamray · January 2017

If those average 10.3k you mentioned are result of CP and res ignore, the only thing required is fixing mitigation. 10.3k will turn into 6-8k - pretty mediocre number for an ability that doesn't explode for free like Curse.

Anyway Backlash is so *** that I'm just frustrated.

Grumble_and_Grunt · January 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

@Cinbri Except it doesn't heal like BoL don't kid yourself. reached much higher heals with the previous change than the current one as for reliability it was reliable to anyone who knows how to play the class, as well as punished poor play. (Will update when 33% missing health is fixed).

When I tested the CDB v2.7.2 it was really strong actually and you didn't have to have like f*** all magicka for it to pump out a heal similar to what CDB is as of v2.7.3 does, it synergised well with DK since every skill costs 3.5k+ and forced into HA which it also synergised well with sets like DR, but not necessary.

Their was validation to my claims, one you may not agree with. Sure the CBD looked good on paper and many probably QQ about the previous version 'I need to be low on magicka to heal' it simply didn't play out like that at all. Combine that with cheap AF embers heal. Any DK that didn't play PTS and had chance to use v2.7.2 on live would probably not have complained and welcomed the change imo, I know my DK friends did and were happy with it. They were also thrilled reading v2.7.3 too then when we tested there was just an overall sense of underwhelming. So don't come on the forums and spread over reactions like CDB is the next BoL/HTD when it isn't lol BoL/HTD is still superior despite tooltips (not to mention magicka return on HTD bugged or otherwise).

DK is almost always sub par 50% magicka in PvP duels or open world. That is just the way ZOS designed the class, not something I particularly agree on either, but the change worked well with the heal and encouraged good play too since DK still have OP embers heal, they should work in tangent with each other, e.g. using CDB for burst heal or when not in range to keep up embers etc. The new new CDB as said looks good on paper and may be better with the 33% missing health I mean sure it will benefit you and your brother since whenever I see you guys in Cyro you're on tank builds. Sure the scaling of missing health would do him wonders.

Not sure why came onto the thread to question my views on balance tbh. I've read your comments on forums, some of the things you suggest for Templar would make templar god mode, no wonder so many value your comments on the official threads because in past patches some of the buffs you have asked for were simply insane and the class bias is real. Not sure how that equates to balance? One example I remember correctly was asking for Temps to be able to take their own shards for resource return xD? Ye that's balance.

Don't kid yourself the 2.7.2 CDH wasn't reliable at all.

A heal that healed better based off missing magicka? How can that be reliable? You have bigger heals for bad resource management, what good is a 17k heal if it's only 17k when you have 4k magicka left?

Bad resource management? Most to all DK run HA you're not getting good dmg and OP regen, you go for dmg and rely on cost reduction to synergise with Battle Roar, further boosting that with sets like DR all because DK movement is so bad in PvP you have to mist everywhere cutting off all regens. You're entitled to your opinion, as am I and I would have preferred the other change, it heals more which worked well in-between your embers and there is a difference between a 17k heal at 10% magicka and a 10k heal at around 30% magicka. the heal should revolve around your embers, used in emergency, otherwise imo it's too strong to have a BoL with embers on a class that can perma block. Not that that matters cause the new heal is underwhelming.

Grumble_and_Grunt · January 2017

@Ashamray I would agree if worked that way, but it isn't just mitigations as @RoyJade pointed out earlier. It's a problem with the build up dmg and the % stored for the final explosion.

Cinbri · January 2017

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

@Cinbri Except it doesn't heal like BoL don't kid yourself. reached much higher heals with the previous change than the current one as for reliability it was reliable to anyone who knows how to play the class, as well as punished poor play. (Will update when 33% missing health is fixed).

When I tested the CDB v2.7.2 it was really strong actually and you didn't have to have like f*** all magicka for it to pump out a heal similar to what CDB is as of v2.7.3 does, it synergised well with DK since every skill costs 3.5k+ and forced into HA which it also synergised well with sets like DR, but not necessary.

Their was validation to my claims, one you may not agree with. Sure the CBD looked good on paper and many probably QQ about the previous version 'I need to be low on magicka to heal' it simply didn't play out like that at all. Combine that with cheap AF embers heal. Any DK that didn't play PTS and had chance to use v2.7.2 on live would probably not have complained and welcomed the change imo, I know my DK friends did and were happy with it. They were also thrilled reading v2.7.3 too then when we tested there was just an overall sense of underwhelming. So don't come on the forums and spread over reactions like CDB is the next BoL/HTD when it isn't lol BoL/HTD is still superior despite tooltips (not to mention magicka return on HTD bugged or otherwise).

DK is almost always sub par 50% magicka in PvP duels or open world. That is just the way ZOS designed the class, not something I particularly agree on either, but the change worked well with the heal and encouraged good play too since DK still have OP embers heal, they should work in tangent with each other, e.g. using CDB for burst heal or when not in range to keep up embers etc. The new new CDB as said looks good on paper and may be better with the 33% missing health I mean sure it will benefit you and your brother since whenever I see you guys in Cyro you're on tank builds. Sure the scaling of missing health would do him wonders.

Not sure why came onto the thread to question my views on balance tbh. I've read your comments on forums, some of the things you suggest for Templar would make templar god mode, no wonder so many value your comments on the official threads because in past patches some of the buffs you have asked for were simply insane and the class bias is real. Not sure how that equates to balance? One example I remember correctly was asking for Temps to be able to take their own shards for resource return xD? Ye that's balance.

I afriad all your claims is a results of your low solo/small-scale pvp experience.
1. Flat heal is bad you claim... 1.5k heals when you ganked. So tell me, regarding current pvp meta that won't shift next update: when you will loose 15-20k hp instantly from gankers that stacked 3 procsets or abused invisible heavy attack, and you stay at 5k hp that equal to be killed by 2 blockable executes, while you at 100% mana. So how reliable 1.5k heal will be when next attack you will face will be even blocked not less than 5k damage? Now it will not just heal no matter of HP but also saved it HP scaling feature, transforming it into awesome anti-execute heals.
2. Scaled heals are nice and dk can't sustain you claim... So here is video of sustained heavy armor DK without mana returns from teammates:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUdoAJPEUO8

So, how good can be skill that will never work for 100% for sustained dk pvp build or will work for 100% when your dk is unevitable will die? Now skill will work for 100% all the time, in addition to be critable it transformed it smaller version of BoL.
3. I never said that CB is equal to BoL in strength, don't lie at least to yourself. I said it working like BoL - dk now can same as templar just run away from enemy and spam his heals that will work even when he on 90% hp. Or did you seiously expected that ZOS will grant Dks skill that will be equal to feature skill of other class?! In 1v1 dk already can get HpS as high as templars from their whips and embers spam, now they also get flat heal that they can activate at any time, without forced to spam burning embers to get viable healing.
In open world: dk much tankier than templars in outnumbered fights because of their Deep Breath skill allows them to heal more based on number of enemies around, but in 1v1 or 1vX high burst builds they are much more weaker than any templar, even templar in light armor, simply because their embers can't heal in time or number of enemies too low for activating deep breath or enemies are just bunch of range atack users. In those situations dk simply die, while templar can spam heals. Everyone who tried to gather hard data in pvp knows that. Now DK can also spam heals in those situations and not rely solely on sutuative skills like whip's heal or deep breath. As side effect dks can swithc back to light armor (as unlike templars they have awesome mitigation skills like Scales), and as side result it will decrease their susain problem. I.e. key problem of mDK in pvp after 1.5 years will be finally fixed. All my pvp dk friends in love with this change. I admit I don't know if it will work bad or good in pve, but in pvp it became what it should be from the beginning.
4. You have once again weird view of pvp and tank builds in paticular. According to you, tank build is 5pc light armor user with 3100 spelldamage with flame-staff and dual swords... There is such thing that called "skill" in pvp that allows some people not die instantly when being outnumbered.

Next. My biasity on templar balance you say...
1. Ok, go to official feedback thread of U13 and show me where I suggest to add something unfair to be given to class, or if i wine about Blazing Spear removal of stun and claim it will ruin templars as class.
2. I indeed posted many suggestions regarding templars because I love class and like you or not, I already got messaged by Devs that they looking of implementing some of my ideas in Update14 that will also contain major skill changes.
3. I indeed asked about Shards synnergy back in time when templar unlike "completely ruined" DKs had zero skills that helps tanks, it seems you prefered to ignore that I asked about it a time when Templar was only class that didn't had skills/passives for stamina returns, unlike every single other class. But well, right now I admit it indeed would be too OP but not coz it was OP idea but because ZOS fixed this problem and with frost staff, new Aura and Channeled Focus that literally restore blocking energy(that you also might remember I asked for), this problem fixed. Literally templar meta tank with frost staff can get more "stamina" that he could get from 20sec cooldown synnergy of their own Shards.
Here is is simple math: on my pvp build from own Shards synnergy I could get 3250 stamina with 20 sec cooldown that equal to 324 stamina regeneration. Now just by slotting frost staff, and using Channel Focus, Radiant Aura and fixed Honor the Dead(hopefully), i.e. skills that I would use by default I can get 1680 (480+800+400) "blocking energy" regeneration while blocking, while in that same time my actual stamina will regenerate and I still will be able to pick up teammate's Shards that will also grant me 324 stamina regeneration. When I will want to fill my blocking magicka back i just switch to snb bar and at a time when all my stamina will be drained on blocking, my 35k mana pool will be filled completely and that is without mana regen buffs like Orbs.<-- frost tanking perfect for templar class.
^^ZOS gladly didn't listen one of my ideas but implemented something that is 5 times stronger for templar. So, does my idea still looking OP or now it looks balanced?
P.S.: So, since all your claims are wrong for pvp, why should I agree with you regarding pvp balance?

RoyJade · January 2017

Ok, I'm here and for now I'm testing the skill against the skeleton. I'm a full naked character with no passive (except in craft), no skill (except backslash), no attribute, no stuff, no cp, a pure raw character.
Three points for now :
- the skill only copy 12,6 to 12,8% of damage applied against the skeletton.
- critics work fine and are counted.
- possibly problematic, when I spam backslash (well, spam, I can use it 6 time in 9 seconds but whatever) or when I re-use it before the end of the skill, the final damage take in account all the previous damage from non-finished backslash. That's mean if a templar need more than 6 second, he can re-use the skill and continue to store damage until the frightened 10k burst. That can open great templar possibilities in 1v1, but can also be dangerous in xv1 cases.

I want to test if penetration work with the storage mechanism, but if I take cp or a staff I'll change my raw stats, so I need some help.
After that, when I'll be fixed to how the damage buildup work in pve, I'll test it in pvp.

Oh, and by the way, the new dps calculator from the skeleton is very good, and confirm FTC accyrancy's one.

Edit : okay, two weird points.
First, the final hit can crit. I don't think it can do more than the maximum damage, but it definitively can crit if it hasn't reach the maximum stored damage.
Secondly, the way debuff work is still unclear. The final damage is more than 12,8% when someone applied drain, but I need more testing to determine exactly why.

Mojomonkeyman · January 2017

Cinbri wrote: »

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

@Cinbri Except it doesn't heal like BoL don't kid yourself. reached much higher heals with the previous change than the current one as for reliability it was reliable to anyone who knows how to play the class, as well as punished poor play. (Will update when 33% missing health is fixed).

When I tested the CDB v2.7.2 it was really strong actually and you didn't have to have like f*** all magicka for it to pump out a heal similar to what CDB is as of v2.7.3 does, it synergised well with DK since every skill costs 3.5k+ and forced into HA which it also synergised well with sets like DR, but not necessary.

Their was validation to my claims, one you may not agree with. Sure the CBD looked good on paper and many probably QQ about the previous version 'I need to be low on magicka to heal' it simply didn't play out like that at all. Combine that with cheap AF embers heal. Any DK that didn't play PTS and had chance to use v2.7.2 on live would probably not have complained and welcomed the change imo, I know my DK friends did and were happy with it. They were also thrilled reading v2.7.3 too then when we tested there was just an overall sense of underwhelming. So don't come on the forums and spread over reactions like CDB is the next BoL/HTD when it isn't lol BoL/HTD is still superior despite tooltips (not to mention magicka return on HTD bugged or otherwise).

DK is almost always sub par 50% magicka in PvP duels or open world. That is just the way ZOS designed the class, not something I particularly agree on either, but the change worked well with the heal and encouraged good play too since DK still have OP embers heal, they should work in tangent with each other, e.g. using CDB for burst heal or when not in range to keep up embers etc. The new new CDB as said looks good on paper and may be better with the 33% missing health I mean sure it will benefit you and your brother since whenever I see you guys in Cyro you're on tank builds. Sure the scaling of missing health would do him wonders.

Not sure why came onto the thread to question my views on balance tbh. I've read your comments on forums, some of the things you suggest for Templar would make templar god mode, no wonder so many value your comments on the official threads because in past patches some of the buffs you have asked for were simply insane and the class bias is real. Not sure how that equates to balance? One example I remember correctly was asking for Temps to be able to take their own shards for resource return xD? Ye that's balance.

I afriad all your claims is a results of your low solo/small-scale pvp experience.
1. Flat heal is bad you claim... 1.5k heals when you ganked. So tell me, regarding current pvp meta that won't shift next update: when you will loose 15-20k hp instantly from gankers that stacked 3 procsets or abused invisible heavy attack, and you stay at 5k hp that equal to be killed by 2 blockable executes, while you at 100% mana. So how reliable 1.5k heal will be when next attack you will face will be even blocked not less than 5k damage? Now it will not just heal no matter of HP but also saved it HP scaling feature, transforming it into awesome anti-execute heals.
2. Scaled heals are nice and dk can't sustain you claim... So here is video of sustained heavy armor DK without mana returns from teammates:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUdoAJPEUO8
So, how good can be skill that will never work for 100% for sustained dk pvp build or will work for 100% when your dk is unevitable will die? Now skill will work for 100% all the time, in addition to be critable it transformed it smaller version of BoL.
3. I never said that CB is equal to BoL in strength, don't lie at least to yourself. I said it working like BoL - dk now can same as templar just run away from enemy and spam his heals that will work even when he on 90% hp. Or did you seiously expected that ZOS will grant Dks skill that will be equal to feature skill of other class?! In 1v1 dk already can get HpS as high as templars from their whips and embers spam, now they also get flat heal that they can activate at any time, without forced to spam burning embers to get viable healing.
In open world: dk much tankier than templars in outnumbered fights because of their Deep Breath skill allows them to heal more based on number of enemies around, but in 1v1 or 1vX high burst builds they are much more weaker than any templar, even templar in light armor, simply because their embers can't heal in time or number of enemies too low for activating deep breath or enemies are just bunch of range atack users. In those situations dk simply die, while templar can spam heals. Everyone who tried to gather hard data in pvp knows that. Now DK can also spam heals in those situations and not rely solely on sutuative skills like whip's heal or deep breath. As side effect dks can swithc back to light armor (as unlike templars they have awesome mitigation skills like Scales), and as side result it will decrease their susain problem. I.e. key problem of mDK in pvp after 1.5 years will be finally fixed. All my pvp dk friends in love with this change. I admit I don't know if it will work bad or good in pve, but in pvp it became what it should be from the beginning.
4. You have once again weird view of pvp and tank builds in paticular. According to you, tank build is 5pc light armor user with 3100 spelldamage with flame-staff and dual swords... There is such thing that called "skill" in pvp that allows some people not die instantly when being outnumbered.

Next. My biasity on templar balance you say...
1. Ok, go to official feedback thread of U13 and show me where I suggest to add something unfair to be given to class, or if i wine about Blazing Spear removal of stun and claim it will ruin templars as class.
2. I indeed posted many suggestions regarding templars because I love class and like you or not, I already got messaged by Devs that they looking of implementing some of my ideas in Update14 that will also contain major skill changes.
3. I indeed asked about Shards synnergy back in time when templar unlike "completely ruined" DKs had zero skills that helps tanks, it seems you prefered to ignore that I asked about it a time when Templar was only class that didn't had skills/passives for stamina returns, unlike every single other class. But well, right now I admit it indeed would be too OP but not coz it was OP idea but because ZOS fixed this problem and with frost staff, new Aura and Channeled Focus that literally restore blocking energy(that you also might remember I asked for), this problem fixed. Literally templar meta tank with frost staff can get more "stamina" that he could get from 20sec cooldown synnergy of their own Shards.
Here is is simple math: on my pvp build from own Shards synnergy I could get 3250 stamina with 20 sec cooldown that equal to 324 stamina regeneration. Now just by slotting frost staff, and using Channel Focus, Radiant Aura and fixed Honor the Dead(hopefully), i.e. skills that I would use by default I can get 1680 (480+800+400) "blocking energy" regeneration while blocking, while in that same time my actual stamina will regenerate and I still will be able to pick up teammate's Shards that will also grant me 324 stamina regeneration. When I will want to fill my blocking magicka back i just switch to snb bar and at a time when all my stamina will be drained on blocking, my 35k mana pool will be filled completely and that is without mana regen buffs like Orbs.<-- frost tanking perfect for templar class.
^^ZOS gladly didn't listen one of my ideas but implemented something that is 5 times stronger for templar. So, does my idea still looking OP or now it looks balanced?
P.S.: So, since all your claims are wrong for pvp, why should I agree with you regarding pvp balance?

Your DK buddies all run malubeth, why would they need a heal?

Grumble_and_Grunt · January 2017

@Cinbri Not going to derail a thread any more to throw more mud at each other. Low solo/small scale experience lol half time I see you you're just zerg serfing as a tank, duo with your brother granted or in group with Hopesfire, soooo okay... I am almost 95% of my time in pvp in a 4 man group lol.

As for the sustain video of Kser notice the comments on the vid are all 'how'd you sustain so well' hence it's a common issue among DK. Your validation of the new CDB because of being ganked and high sustain builds would be punished, then sure, i'd agree with that. In fact I would go as further to say someone like yourself and me who regularly run with a DK (Assuming you are duo with your brother at the time) then the new restoring aura would be counter productive to it also, so sure I can argue either side, but I personally think for a solo DK, DK with generic set up v2.7.2 was the better heal and there are arguments for both. so does that make my claims for PvP wrong? No, it makes it debatable hence the point of the forums, to disregard someone as right or wrong is not productive and as a closing statement is petty. To argue my points above as have done so then that's fair enough, but as a closing statement with P.S you're wrong then well okay then xD.

I really don't think DK will run light armor next patch either at all, why would they? The sustain boost isn't worth the pros of HA, HA is still strong, I don't see a shift in that meta at all. Nor will scales mitigate dmg to a DK making it superior to Templar, scales is almost pointless to slot next patch imo.

Finally Regarding what you said about ZOS implementing your Templar ideas for U14 I sure as F*** hope not or Templar will be ridiculous and will probably create the most toxic tank meta more so than it can be already and so be the Templar nerf hammer will be brought down just after your 'buffs'.

Templar is in a great spot as of this patch *live patch* It is incredibly versatile of all the magicka classes, anyone claiming Templar needs more buffs is being bias towards the class. Next patch Templar loses burst potential from Crescent and the nerf to beam will ofc affect burst being a channeled execute that would tick incredibly (Too high) at low health thresholds, but then Templar gains a disgustingly OP sustain skill to couple with Channeled Focus, this isn't balanced and the changes only force Templar into support heal/tank playstyles, wouldn't be surprised if that was one of your special ZOS requests for balance.

You make valid points however with Temp PvE Tanking and frost staff encourages that, but imo it also breaks PvP and it will and we will see that, but you'll be happy because you can sit there and Tank a sh** tonne of people with the ease of perma blocking and weapon swapping with skills that boost you passively -.-. All probably whilst wishing ZOS had accepted your request for Sturdy Black Rose because as you stated previously it's only balanced to have all traits for gear sets (valid point, but we all know reason you wanted that

)

Won't argue anymore on the topic because it will derail the thread too much, a thread that is about a bug, not about class balance and integrity so assuming you'll throw more mud towards me to counter what I said, then I'll just accept it so we can continue on the issue at hand and I'll just assume you're right and I am wrong because everything is that black and white.

Grumble_and_Grunt · January 2017

@RoyJade Nice work man, keep us updated, I PM'd you, if need help testing or need a dummy let me know and I'll try jump on assuming crashing is better.

Bashev · January 2017

Does Backlash works on shields absorbed damage?

RoyJade · January 2017

Okay, I just tested the penetration with more accuracy. Now, I can say that the damage buildup does, and the final damage apply it too, at least in pve. When I use pierce armor before backslash + light armor, the released damage is more or less 14,8%. But when I use pierce armor, then I use backslash + light armor during the debuff, but the final burst hit after the debuff end, the damage is 12,7%.
So, at least in pve, the final damage is double affected by resistances.

Sharee · January 2017

RoyJade wrote: »

Well, bypassing mitigation seem fine to me, if the stored damage take them in account. If the damage buildup ignore mitigation, it would be broken because you would be able to store the maximum damage really easily.

The stored damage ignores battlespirit, by design. That means it virtually ignores mitigation - against a 50% mitigation target, it accumulates damage just as fast as if it respected battlespirit, but ignored mitigation. That's why it is able to reach the maximum damage everytime, even simple light attacks do high damage without the battlespirit standing in the way.

Imagine how fast would someone remove 10K HP from you in cyrodiil if his attacks ignored battlespirit - that's how fast the backlash damage accumulates. Unless you cast it and do absolutely nothing after, it is basically guaranteed to reach the 10K threshold everytime.

Currently backlash is basically acting as daedric curse with twice the damage.

Cinbri · January 2017

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Your DK buddies all run malubeth, why would they need a heal?

It is fun to say it to someone who origianlly posted proof that malubeth is bugged:

Cinbri wrote: »

Was it video after patch where zos fixed malubeth? Coz before patch numbers were different.
Also stop asking about switching it to Major Mending, it should be switched to Major Vitality, I don't wanna see how zergballs will all wear Malubeth and get 25% heal buff for their Springs for almost free - good luck to deal with such train. ZOS are not that stupid to make particular set not working for some classes and grant templar passive to all classes just from wearing 2pc set. It is like asking: "remove Tava Blessing coz it double effectiveness of Battle Roar passive or remove Bloodspawn coz dragonknights wear it to increase effectiveness of their Battle Roar", see how stupid it sounds.
Current 2 problems with this set - somehow bugged beam(if it wasn't fixed yet) and possibility to stack buff with lingering essence potions that grant Major Vitality to get 60% heal buff. Fix those problems and set will be fine.

Sorry, but none of my buddies need to exploiting to be competitive. But many people mad on me for expose them for exploiting. And btw it was changed to be Major Vitality, sorry for requesting it, can blame me for this nerf.

@Grumble_and_Grunt to not deriving thread just hide it in spoiler

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

@Cinbri Not going to derail a thread any more to throw more mud at each other. Low solo/small scale experience lol half time I see you you're just zerg serfing as a tank, duo with your brother granted or in group with Hopesfire, soooo okay... I am almost 95% of my time in pvp in a 4 man group lol.

As for the sustain video of Kser notice the comments on the vid are all 'how'd you sustain so well' hence it's a common issue among DK. Your validation of the new CDB because of being ganked and high sustain builds would be punished, then sure, i'd agree with that. In fact I would go as further to say someone like yourself and me who regularly run with a DK (Assuming you are duo with your brother at the time) then the new restoring aura would be counter productive to it also, so sure I can argue either side, but I personally think for a solo DK, DK with generic set up v2.7.2 was the better heal and there are arguments for both. so does that make my claims for PvP wrong? No, it makes it debatable hence the point of the forums, to disregard someone as right or wrong is not productive and as a closing statement is petty. To argue my points above as have done so then that's fair enough, but as a closing statement with P.S you're wrong then well okay then xD.

I really don't think DK will run light armor next patch either at all, why would they? The sustain boost isn't worth the pros of HA, HA is still strong, I don't see a shift in that meta at all. Nor will scales mitigate dmg to a DK making it superior to Templar, scales is almost pointless to slot next patch imo.

Finally Regarding what you said about ZOS implementing your Templar ideas for U14 I sure as F*** hope not or Templar will be ridiculous and will probably create the most toxic tank meta more so than it can be already and so be the Templar nerf hammer will be brought down just after your 'buffs'.

Templar is in a great spot as of this patch *live patch* It is incredibly versatile of all the magicka classes, anyone claiming Templar needs more buffs is being bias towards the class. Next patch Templar loses burst potential from Crescent and the nerf to beam will ofc affect burst being a channeled execute that would tick incredibly (Too high) at low health thresholds, but then Templar gains a disgustingly OP sustain skill to couple with Channeled Focus, this isn't balanced and the changes only force Templar into support heal/tank playstyles, wouldn't be surprised if that was one of your special ZOS requests for balance.

You make valid points however with Temp PvE Tanking and frost staff encourages that, but imo it also breaks PvP and it will and we will see that, but you'll be happy because you can sit there and Tank a sh** tonne of people with the ease of perma blocking and weapon swapping with skills that boost you passively -.-. All probably whilst wishing ZOS had accepted your request for Sturdy Black Rose because as you stated previously it's only balanced to have all traits for gear sets (valid point, but we all know reason you wanted that )

Won't argue anymore on the topic because it will derail the thread too much, a thread that is about a bug, not about class balance and integrity so assuming you'll throw more mud towards me to counter what I said, then I'll just accept it so we can continue on the issue at hand and I'll just assume you're right and I am wrong because everything is that black and white.

1. It adorable like everyone whom i wiped again and again claiming that i am zerger.
@Derra already answered on it

Derra wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Lol, magplar and magdk struggles from it 10x times more, seems like someone newer plays solo/small-scale

Cinbri is a rank50 smallgrp/solo/duo player ._.

But maybe he is also zerger who defend zerger, maybe even entire Kitesquad guild is just zerger guild?
2. So, you still didn't answer, tanks in you point of view are light armor user without shield that refuse to die instantly. Instead i saw only demagogy.
3. I asked about sturdy black rose becuase all sets should be balanced, I also asked to either reduce resource returns from 5pc bonus or remove wpn/spl damage from it completely. Ofcourse you missed it, while also seeing me you know that i don't wear it (or is black rose now have dro-m'athra style/glass?). I also was asking about cyro tower doors removal, can aswell blame me for it.
P.S.: And btw, resorce returns of Black Rose were toned down. Ok, I might take responsibility for asking about such monstrous nerf.
4. Change of cDB maybe not will make LA completely viable but it make it more viable. Right now main problem of LA dks is that they couldn't heal damage and rely on skills that too situational. But HA>LA is problem of armor itself, not skills.
4. Regarding cDB you instead of giving solid answer on my questions regarding where is "realiability" of it's 2.7.2 version based on my examples, is you just spread even more demagogy like "I don't like your tone, thats my argument".
5. Regarding my templar suggestions you once again didn't showed me where in U13 feedback I asked for something that will make templars OP. Instead just more demagogy, I not surprised anymore.
6. You seems agreed that my idea how to fix templar sustain was far better than what zos did in the end , but yet again more demagogy that I "asked for insane buffs" that you can't even pointing.
TL DR: instead of long arguable post with your answers with arguments on my questions, you just wrote long demagogy post that have zero meaning. Just a hint: if you have nothing to answer - just don't answer. I see no point to read demagogy, with same efforts I can just read political news.

Back on topic regarding Backlash: talking about bugs is good and much needed thing but starting to talk if skill will be OP or not without even knowing how it will actually work without all million bugs in it is utterly stupid. As @Ashamray pointed that without bugs he don't see anything OP. Same as me - I don't see what OP in skill that will hit for 6k once in 6 seconds with intentionally working storing mechanic while it also require to terget being hit, unlike same skills of other classes.
When this skill will be unevitable fixed I see only 1 problem - it store damage dealt from any source and don't have cap like all rest of same skills. It means in Cyro we will see now Backlashes everywhere because even 1 templar can stand beside large groups and spam this skill that is uncapped for targets. Just stand still and spam it while other people will just store damage for it, and as result 1 templar in a crowd will deal more damage than he could even do with RD, and for that point new Backlash will be even worse than RD spam, as got hit by ~8k ublockable damage is far worse than being spammed to death by 4 bloackable RD... And btw being affected Backlash doesn't prevent to be spammed to death by RD.

Cinbri · January 2017

Sharee wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

Well, bypassing mitigation seem fine to me, if the stored damage take them in account. If the damage buildup ignore mitigation, it would be broken because you would be able to store the maximum damage really easily.

The stored damage ignores battlespirit, by design. That means it virtually ignores mitigation - against a 50% mitigation target, it accumulates damage just as fast as if it respected battlespirit, but ignored mitigation. That's why it is able to reach the maximum damage everytime, even simple light attacks do high damage without the battlespirit standing in the way.

Imagine how fast would someone remove 10K HP from you in cyrodiil if his attacks ignored battlespirit - that's how fast the backlash damage accumulates. Unless you cast it and do absolutely nothing after, it is basically guaranteed to reach the 10K threshold everytime.

Currently backlash is basically acting as daedric curse with twice the damage.

Not quiet sure about intended storage of damage:
It deal indeed equal damage for pve/ pvp situations now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMMqOxnw-BY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm_fMs9Dmd4
while blocked damage store intended:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKp4BEkW5PY

But sometimes it starting act weird:

https://youtu.be/YooXbeN0L6U

Dealt 7017 damage. Even if increase it 2 times with ignoring Battle Spirit it will be 14034 damage. Don't know how 24% of this transformed into my caped non-crit 9976.
In PvE hoewer it never bugs and works fine and store intended 24% of incoming damage, so it seems Battle Spirit responsible.

Grumble_and_Grunt · January 2017

@Cinbri (Will only comment now if it relates to the thread) I have already pointed out what you have just said and agreed if read my interactions. I didn't assume skill would be OP without the bugs either, was solely mentioning its current state. Hence why we are testing the bugs asap so we can actually have time to test the skill as intended on PTS so it makes it to live with full intended functionality.

Cinbri · January 2017

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

@Cinbri (Will only comment now if it relates to the thread) I have already pointed out what you have just said and agreed if read my interactions. I didn't assume skill would be OP without the bugs either, was solely mentioning its current state. Hence why we are testing the bugs asap so we can actually have time to test the skill as intended on PTS so it makes it to live with full intended functionality.

It is good intention but it is 2 weeks till going live and I afraid skill won't be able to functional without every single bug or if it enough time to revert mechanic to prevent bugs, however most terrible bug is wrong storing of damage and we still don't know why.
For example fix of Eclipse that was stucking caster in global cooldown, i,e didn't work at all, was made after 2 months after pts went live, 3 months in total; or Honor the Dead is bugged since One Tamriel and hopefully will be fixed only in U13.

Grumble_and_Grunt · January 2017

@Cinbri me and @RoyJade are on the PTS now and did further testing, since @RoyJade is more adept to evaluating the data and a better methodology he has found the core issues with the skill and other interesting anomalies, will pin his comment to the top when he has updated his findings.