Endgame PvE DPS needs adjustments before this patch goes live

Foxic · January 2017

I'm all for balance here but everyone is acting like no class has ever been stronger than the others before.

I think everyone is forgetting after daedric mines was were nerfed that sorcs were only brought into raids for negates. Nightblade were only brought into veil, Templar and stam dps didn't exist, and you had ~8 magicka dks from trial launch until the overload meta when trials were so out of date that they were brainless. Also stamplar was good for a patch because it was broken.

I know stam needs some help but as someone who doesn't play it, I don't feel like I have the authority to speak on what should change. However I have 4K+ hours on magsorc and play all Mag dps. Mag dps is the closest it has ever been in my opinion.

MaxwellC · January 2017

@Alcast
Honestly I skipped through it to get to the point so you win that battle.

DragonBound · January 2017

Here is what I think, stamina changes need more time for testing so if they where implementing changes they wanted to only change what they where already releasing notes on first which was magicka, if they are changing stamina clearly it would require more work and testing at this point.

Stamden · January 2017

CosmicSoul wrote: »

Here is what I think, stamina changes need more time for testing so if they where implementing changes they wanted to only change what they where already releasing notes on first which was magicka, if they are changing stamina clearly it would require more work and testing at this point.

Yeah I think it's probably too late for Stam builds considering this patch drops in like 2 weeks. There needs to be a massive overhaul in class stam abilities, weapon passives, and weapon abilities that there just isn't time for.

I would think, at the very least, all the magika classes can be brought up to a similar level before the patch drops with a small amount of effort. Up some of the damage numbers on underperforming classes, and reduce spell cost for classes that struggle with magika sustain.

Then when they work on Stamina in the next update, they will have some balanced magika DPS numbers to work with and compare with.

Strider_Roshin · January 2017

I remember when trials were half stam, and half magicka. Magicka cried how OP stam was during then. I'm sure once this update goes live, stam will be extinct and the magicka community will think that the game is finally balanced.

OrphanHelgen · January 2017

SickDuck wrote: »

You are doing it all wrong. Magicka meant to be for pve while stamina is for pvp play (as you like). Clear as day.

Even essential skills as vigor and caltrops are in the pvp lines. Stop harassing ZOS and take the hint!

Why did they remake take flight from physical dmg to fire then?

OrphanHelgen · January 2017

AzuraKin wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel

Endgame PvE DPS is extremely unbalanced right now. Considering this is supposed to be "the balance patch", this really needs looking into before this patch goes live. So first let's compare each setup. Thankfully @Alcast did some testing on all the endgame setups.

Magika:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0T4vxgRdN8&t

Stamina:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lPuAx65-dE

Results:

Mag DK - 36k
Mag Sorc - 41k
Mag NB - 36k
Mag Templar - 37k
All Stam setups - ~32k

Problems:

Stamina - First of all, no stam setup can compete with mag setup. Stam setups already have the major downside of having less AoE, less utility, and less survivability than their magika counterparts. There is no reason to bring a stam character into a trial environment at all.

The Sorc Gap - The next problem is the immense gap in DPS between Mag Sorcs and all of the other magika classes. A difference of 5k is huge when going for scores. Optimal raid setups are only going to use Sorcs for DPS. The fact that their rotation is relatively simple and they don't have much trouble with magika is just icing on the cake.

Melee - Ideally, melee characters should be rewarded for having to go in melee range. Certain bosses cater much more to ranged setups, and being melee you expose yourself to more mechanics to deal with. Melee setups should at least have the same, or better DPS than ranged setups. In these tests, the opposite effect is shown. Stam setups and Mag DK are the ones that are most limited to melee for their rotation, while they also have the lowest DPS.

Sustainability - Notice how some setups struggle to keep up magika/stamina doing these rotations much more than others. For example, Mag Temp does not go below 80% magika in the entire fight, while Mag DK cannot sustain the rotation for very long at all. In long boss fights, setups that cannot maintain the rotation during entire fight are a hindrance to total DPS of the group.

I know the patch drops in 2 weeks, but these problems need to be addressed before the patch drops or else endgame PvE is going to be very limiting to certain setups. Considering this game does not receive patches very often, and balance changes even less often, this needs to be looked at immediately.

bah another animation cancelling cheater, wonder how 'good' these players would be if they didnt cheat.

hah

wow

*reading sentence again*

......

Yeah must be troll

Shadzilla · January 2017

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

I remember when trials were half stam, and half magicka. Magicka cried how OP stam was during then. I'm sure once this update goes live, stam will be extinct and the magicka community will think that the game is finally balanced.

Stam is already extinct on live as it is, has been like that since the new trial difficulty versions came out. Just sad that we go another half a year with literally 90% leaderboard characters mag. Seems like the only viable way to be stam in a competitive trial run is to roll tank.... With a frost staff??? LMFAO

Ghostextechnica · January 2017

I wish at the very least in this patch that they would revert the Stam dps nerfs.

After looking at the outcome of the changes (the whole point of the PTS) nerfing Rearming Trap and Hurricane (stamsorc aoe which everyone is saying stam needs more of) doesn't seem to make sense.

Alcast · January 2017

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Alcast
Honestly I skipped through it to get to the point so you win that battle.

Izaki · January 2017

Alcast wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Alcast
Honestly I skipped through it to get to the point so you win that battle.

By the way I noticed you don't cancel the animations for Rearming Trap and Endless Hail. Y U DO DIS? :OOOOO They are so long and clunky, its like they are begging to get block canceled. But then again it might have been the lag on PTS, probably best to not mess with animations too much or your game might crash xD

PS: I have a suggestion for your Stam NB rotation: don't use the spectral bow proc every time its up. It does less DPS than the magicka version, its only a slight boost compared to Rapid Strikes, so its only worth to use it once every 20 seconds.

Domander · January 2017

Anhedonie wrote: »

1. Buff stamina single target damage, give them more AOE. Survivability is fine.
2. Nerf maelstrom daggers, so they only give 500 wpd on proc.
3. Also, both stamina and magicka need improvements in resource managment.

um, so... are you asking for better resource management while putting everything (that can) into damage?

Nefaras · January 2017

AzuraKin wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel

Endgame PvE DPS is extremely unbalanced right now. Considering this is supposed to be "the balance patch", this really needs looking into before this patch goes live. So first let's compare each setup. Thankfully @Alcast did some testing on all the endgame setups.

Magika:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0T4vxgRdN8&t

Stamina:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lPuAx65-dE

Results:

Mag DK - 36k
Mag Sorc - 41k
Mag NB - 36k
Mag Templar - 37k
All Stam setups - ~32k

Problems:

Stamina - First of all, no stam setup can compete with mag setup. Stam setups already have the major downside of having less AoE, less utility, and less survivability than their magika counterparts. There is no reason to bring a stam character into a trial environment at all.

The Sorc Gap - The next problem is the immense gap in DPS between Mag Sorcs and all of the other magika classes. A difference of 5k is huge when going for scores. Optimal raid setups are only going to use Sorcs for DPS. The fact that their rotation is relatively simple and they don't have much trouble with magika is just icing on the cake.

Melee - Ideally, melee characters should be rewarded for having to go in melee range. Certain bosses cater much more to ranged setups, and being melee you expose yourself to more mechanics to deal with. Melee setups should at least have the same, or better DPS than ranged setups. In these tests, the opposite effect is shown. Stam setups and Mag DK are the ones that are most limited to melee for their rotation, while they also have the lowest DPS.

Sustainability - Notice how some setups struggle to keep up magika/stamina doing these rotations much more than others. For example, Mag Temp does not go below 80% magika in the entire fight, while Mag DK cannot sustain the rotation for very long at all. In long boss fights, setups that cannot maintain the rotation during entire fight are a hindrance to total DPS of the group.

I know the patch drops in 2 weeks, but these problems need to be addressed before the patch drops or else endgame PvE is going to be very limiting to certain setups. Considering this game does not receive patches very often, and balance changes even less often, this needs to be looked at immediately.

bah another animation cancelling cheater, wonder how 'good' these players would be if they didnt cheat.

*** guys like you destroy our chances of real balance in the game. Cause your QQ overlaps real opinions that matter. Animation cancel is player skill nothing else

Docmandu · January 2017

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

I'm already not allowed to bring a stam build into any trials. The patch is a month away (xbox). Enough said.

Get new friends

SickDuck · January 2017

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

SickDuck wrote: »

You are doing it all wrong. Magicka meant to be for pve while stamina is for pvp play (as you like). Clear as day.

Even essential skills as vigor and caltrops are in the pvp lines. Stop harassing ZOS and take the hint!

Why did they remake take flight from physical dmg to fire then?

You know that I was sarcastic only, right?...

The thing is ZOS still being in the denial phase after 3 years, claiming the same skills will work in harmony both for pve and pvp. (Despite the fact they still need to add the so called "Battle Spirit" beauty patch.) This is responsible for the majority of the class balance issues. Instead of giving in they throw in more and more hacks and workarounds. But in the end someone is still losing out.

Generally stamina performs better now in pvp while magicka has better pve potential. ZOS has limited ways to balance things out in one without screwing the other. I can only hope they either invent the philosophers stone or give in one day.

React · January 2017

SickDuck wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

SickDuck wrote: »

You are doing it all wrong. Magicka meant to be for pve while stamina is for pvp play (as you like). Clear as day.

Even essential skills as vigor and caltrops are in the pvp lines. Stop harassing ZOS and take the hint!

Why did they remake take flight from physical dmg to fire then?

You know that I was sarcastic only, right?...

The thing is ZOS still being in the denial phase after 3 years, claiming the same skills will work in harmony both for pve and pvp. (Despite the fact they still need to add the so called "Battle Spirit" beauty patch.) This is responsible for the majority of the class balance issues. Instead of giving in they throw in more and more hacks and workarounds. But in the end someone is still losing out.

Generally stamina performs better now in pvp while magicka has better pve potential. ZOS has limited ways to balance things out in one without screwing the other. I can only hope they either invent the philosophers stone or give in one day.

I wouldn't say stamina is better in pvp currently. Sure you can stack 3 proc sets and 1 shot a couple people per life in open world if you're careful, but have you seen destro ultimate/grodthdarr builds wipe 20+ people with a single ultimate? Stamina may outshine magicka in SOME 1v1 and 1v2 scenarios, but as it stands right now magicka is the go to face roll setup in open world.

Izaki · January 2017

Docmandu wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

I'm already not allowed to bring a stam build into any trials. The patch is a month away (xbox). Enough said.

Get new friends

My mates are fine thanks. Its just that when you gotta beat a score, you can't really afford a stamina DPS. So I understand them perfectly and I would do the exact same thing.

runagate · January 2017

I definitely remember a time when all pvp groups required several sorcs for negates and all trials had multiple sorcs as well. Seems like ages ago.

Please for the love of all that's holy keep sorc pets out of absolutely everything. Just replace them with pretty fireworks that timestop duelers or something that's actually useful.

The idea that magicka is currently better than stamina in pvp currently is laughable. PvP is rock paper scissors and I can't think of a combination that's not best at something except maybe dual wield or stamplars, but stamplars are in a bad place for almost everything.

Pallio · January 2017

When is the Stamplar patch coming? Been waiting over a year already.

Smajestic · January 2017

Neighbor wrote: »

-The Destro 8% passive was also a direct increase to all magika classes, but Sorcs probably benefit the most from this due to the amount of "single target" skills in their rotation.

Have you played a sorcerer one time before ?

the AOE damage of the sorcerer are between 40-50% of all damage (liquid lightning, Elemental blockade, shooting star...). So it's not easy to choose the best staff between fire or lightning, but in any case a sorcerer will benefit the most due to the amount of single target skill... it's maybe more the nightblade who can benefit the most (but i haven't test

Please do some test before.

Stamden · January 2017

Smajestic wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

-The Destro 8% passive was also a direct increase to all magika classes, but Sorcs probably benefit the most from this due to the amount of "single target" skills in their rotation.

Have you played a sorcerer one time before ?

the AOE damage of the sorcerer are between 40-50% of all damage (liquid lightning, Elemental blockade, shooting star...). So it's not easy to choose the best staff between fire or lightning, but in any case a sorcerer will benefit the most due to the amount of single target skill... it's maybe more the nightblade who can benefit the most (but i haven't test

Please do some test before.

I am under the impression that if you ran lit staff on AoE/bar-back, cast LL and Blockade, then switched to a fire staff front-bar with Frags and Pulse. In that sense, you would get the best of both worlds. But you're right I've just assumed that's how it works. It could be that it's possible that the damage buff gets lost based on what you're current weapon is, rather than what is was when the skill was used.

Foxic · January 2017

Neighbor wrote: »

Smajestic wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

-The Destro 8% passive was also a direct increase to all magika classes, but Sorcs probably benefit the most from this due to the amount of "single target" skills in their rotation.

Have you played a sorcerer one time before ?

the AOE damage of the sorcerer are between 40-50% of all damage (liquid lightning, Elemental blockade, shooting star...). So it's not easy to choose the best staff between fire or lightning, but in any case a sorcerer will benefit the most due to the amount of single target skill... it's maybe more the nightblade who can benefit the most (but i haven't test

Please do some test before.

I am under the impression that if you ran lit staff on AoE/bar-back, cast LL and Blockade, then switched to a fire staff front-bar with Frags and Pulse. In that sense, you would get the best of both worlds. But you're right I've just assumed that's how it works. It could be that it's possible that the damage buff gets lost based on what you're current weapon is, rather than what is was when the skill was used.

The passive of your current staff is used. Not the one used to cast the skill

Stamden · January 2017

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

Smajestic wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

-The Destro 8% passive was also a direct increase to all magika classes, but Sorcs probably benefit the most from this due to the amount of "single target" skills in their rotation.

Have you played a sorcerer one time before ?

the AOE damage of the sorcerer are between 40-50% of all damage (liquid lightning, Elemental blockade, shooting star...). So it's not easy to choose the best staff between fire or lightning, but in any case a sorcerer will benefit the most due to the amount of single target skill... it's maybe more the nightblade who can benefit the most (but i haven't test

Please do some test before.

I am under the impression that if you ran lit staff on AoE/bar-back, cast LL and Blockade, then switched to a fire staff front-bar with Frags and Pulse. In that sense, you would get the best of both worlds. But you're right I've just assumed that's how it works. It could be that it's possible that the damage buff gets lost based on what you're current weapon is, rather than what is was when the skill was used.

The passive of your current staff is used. Not the one used to cast the skill

Ah alright that makes more sense.

DemonDruaga · January 2017

Alcast wrote: »

AzuraKin wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel

Endgame PvE DPS is extremely unbalanced right now. Considering this is supposed to be "the balance patch", this really needs looking into before this patch goes live. So first let's compare each setup. Thankfully @Alcast did some testing on all the endgame setups.

Magika:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0T4vxgRdN8&t

Stamina:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lPuAx65-dE

Results:

Mag DK - 36k
Mag Sorc - 41k
Mag NB - 36k
Mag Templar - 37k
All Stam setups - ~32k

Problems:

Stamina - First of all, no stam setup can compete with mag setup. Stam setups already have the major downside of having less AoE, less utility, and less survivability than their magika counterparts. There is no reason to bring a stam character into a trial environment at all.

The Sorc Gap - The next problem is the immense gap in DPS between Mag Sorcs and all of the other magika classes. A difference of 5k is huge when going for scores. Optimal raid setups are only going to use Sorcs for DPS. The fact that their rotation is relatively simple and they don't have much trouble with magika is just icing on the cake.

Melee - Ideally, melee characters should be rewarded for having to go in melee range. Certain bosses cater much more to ranged setups, and being melee you expose yourself to more mechanics to deal with. Melee setups should at least have the same, or better DPS than ranged setups. In these tests, the opposite effect is shown. Stam setups and Mag DK are the ones that are most limited to melee for their rotation, while they also have the lowest DPS.

Sustainability - Notice how some setups struggle to keep up magika/stamina doing these rotations much more than others. For example, Mag Temp does not go below 80% magika in the entire fight, while Mag DK cannot sustain the rotation for very long at all. In long boss fights, setups that cannot maintain the rotation during entire fight are a hindrance to total DPS of the group.

I know the patch drops in 2 weeks, but these problems need to be addressed before the patch drops or else endgame PvE is going to be very limiting to certain setups. Considering this game does not receive patches very often, and balance changes even less often, this needs to be looked at immediately.

bah another animation cancelling cheater, wonder how 'good' these players would be if they didnt cheat.

https://youtu.be/ThZtwhYkKSs

Haha omg.. kes wonder wird de content immer eifacher bi so skyrim fan boys

Nefaras · January 2017

DemonDruaga wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

AzuraKin wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel

Endgame PvE DPS is extremely unbalanced right now. Considering this is supposed to be "the balance patch", this really needs looking into before this patch goes live. So first let's compare each setup. Thankfully @Alcast did some testing on all the endgame setups.

Magika:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0T4vxgRdN8&t

Stamina:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lPuAx65-dE

Results:

Mag DK - 36k
Mag Sorc - 41k
Mag NB - 36k
Mag Templar - 37k
All Stam setups - ~32k

Problems:

Stamina - First of all, no stam setup can compete with mag setup. Stam setups already have the major downside of having less AoE, less utility, and less survivability than their magika counterparts. There is no reason to bring a stam character into a trial environment at all.

The Sorc Gap - The next problem is the immense gap in DPS between Mag Sorcs and all of the other magika classes. A difference of 5k is huge when going for scores. Optimal raid setups are only going to use Sorcs for DPS. The fact that their rotation is relatively simple and they don't have much trouble with magika is just icing on the cake.

Melee - Ideally, melee characters should be rewarded for having to go in melee range. Certain bosses cater much more to ranged setups, and being melee you expose yourself to more mechanics to deal with. Melee setups should at least have the same, or better DPS than ranged setups. In these tests, the opposite effect is shown. Stam setups and Mag DK are the ones that are most limited to melee for their rotation, while they also have the lowest DPS.

Sustainability - Notice how some setups struggle to keep up magika/stamina doing these rotations much more than others. For example, Mag Temp does not go below 80% magika in the entire fight, while Mag DK cannot sustain the rotation for very long at all. In long boss fights, setups that cannot maintain the rotation during entire fight are a hindrance to total DPS of the group.

I know the patch drops in 2 weeks, but these problems need to be addressed before the patch drops or else endgame PvE is going to be very limiting to certain setups. Considering this game does not receive patches very often, and balance changes even less often, this needs to be looked at immediately.

bah another animation cancelling cheater, wonder how 'good' these players would be if they didnt cheat.

https://youtu.be/ThZtwhYkKSs

Haha omg.. kes wonder wird de content immer eifacher bi so skyrim fan boys

Dir ist schon klar das du im eng Forum bist oder?

Thanks for pushing the thread!

jbjondeaueb17_ESO · January 2017

If stam dps is so bad, perhaps you should say it to my friend, he didn't realize it yet.

https://youtu.be/b52kDbThGFc

xblackroxe · January 2017

jbjondeaueb17_ESO wrote: »

If stam dps is so bad, perhaps you should say it to my friend, he didn't realize it yet.

https://youtu.be/b52kDbThGFc

Yeah so? Mag DKs and Magplars can do the same on this boss with 2-3x the aoe damage on trash. And AA is by far the best trial for stam dps to play in.

After the patch with buffed ST damage of magicka and no nerf to AOE damage there is literally 0 reason to bring stamina into a trial.

PurifedBladez · January 2017

A wise man once told me they would never fix balance in eso. Every 3 or so months just be ready for the game to flop over to Magic or Stam.

Horowonnoe · January 2017

PurifedBladez wrote: »

A wise man once told me they would never fix balance in eso. Every 3 or so months just be ready for the game to flop over to Magic or Stam.

This is why one makes a toon of every kind. When one is nerfed, switch to playing another that is buffed or has an OP broken skill. Nerfed again? No prob, find which is the next op class/mag/stam combo

Oreyn_Bearclaw · January 2017

Not an even test if no VMA weapons or fracture was used. Also, the same guy that made those videos just did a 63K parse on a stam DK on Rakkhat HM.

https://gyazo.com/4eac3586b783a93a121fa331a6b5a022

I will fully admit that stam has draw backs in end game PVE, but the DPS is still ridiculous, just harder to stay up.

Problem is of course PVP. If a stam sorc had access to a 20k shield, they would be invincible.