NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more I realize that the thing the current trader system rewards more than anything else is common sense. Take the following, for example:

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Joining 5 trade guilds also leaves you no room to join actual PvE or PvP guilds.

Then don't join five trade guilds. How hard is that to understand? Join two, then you've still got room for a PvE, PvP, and a RP guild. All of which, btw, are quite capable of having their own guild stores and biding on their own guild traders.

Seriously, you guys will grasp at any straw you can to justify turning ESO into WoW.

@Glurin
You're onto something there.

I'd edit it tho...."don't join any trade guilds at all"


The actual problem is people's thoughts that forming a guild to trade is somehow a good idea.


Imagine if Amazon, Bestbuy, Grocery stores, computer stores, hardware stores, etc all formed together so they could buy and sale from one another.

That wouldn't work at all

So then they try and establish a presence as one big have everything store. That also doesn't work because it's too broad and not focused on any one groups needs.


The answer is simple. Stop joining trading guilds and join a real guild

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more I realize that the thing the current trader system rewards more than anything else is common sense. Take the following, for example:

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Joining 5 trade guilds also leaves you no room to join actual PvE or PvP guilds.

Then don't join five trade guilds. How hard is that to understand? Join two, then you've still got room for a PvE, PvP, and a RP guild. All of which, btw, are quite capable of having their own guild stores and biding on their own guild traders.

Seriously, you guys will grasp at any straw you can to justify turning ESO into WoW.

@Glurin
You're onto something there.

I'd edit it tho...."don't join any trade guilds at all"


The actual problem is people's thoughts that forming a guild to trade is somehow a good idea.


Imagine if Amazon, Bestbuy, Grocery stores, computer stores, hardware stores, etc all formed together so they could buy and sale from one another.

That wouldn't work at all

So then they try and establish a presence as one big have everything store. That also doesn't work because it's too broad and not focused on any one groups needs.


The answer is simple. Stop joining trading guilds and join a real guild

It's not that simple because you really need to belong to a trading guild to get access to enough buyers to sell your goods. Otherwise you are more likely than not going to get stuck just selling everything to a in-game NPC.

This problem is only going to get worse too too when housing comes out and people have a cause to make a lot of money. Perhaps they should divide the server up or something - one with an auction house and the other with these guild trader things.

That way those who want an accessible and global market that accommodates everyone regardless of their guild will have one. And those who are paranoid about auction houses for what ever reason can keep their guild traders.

@Jeremy

Actually you don't. I decided when console launched not to ever join a trading guild or a guild who required fees to bid on a trader.

I went back on that for over a year and now I've gone back to it because here's the reality.

I went into the guild store of those 4 and realized that all we were doing is either matching everyone exact price or undercutting one another.

Then we'd give thousands each week just to hope we get a trader. Many times we would but it wasn't always the best spots so items would sit for days if they ever sold.


So later I decided to farm the good stuff to sale

Well I realized how dumb that idea was cause I was no longer spending much time playing. I was farming and grinding for stuff to sale and to make gold.

For me on Xbox one that cost was around 2500 to 7500 gold per week per guild.
Then each item takes a house cut as well as getting undercut

Last month....just playing very casually and doing quests and dlc no more than 2 hours a day four days a week.....I have gained over 100k.

No grinding just playing, selling within my main guild, or vendoring. Buying stuff from traders still



I literally will never go back to a trading guild because it's not actually worth it for the average player. Sure if you consider fun farming and making the most gold fun but for me and many others...we play to progress and do content.


One of the guilds I'm in...one main crafter literally crafts and upgrades to purple for free.

So being a crafter myself I started dropping a few items I crafted in the store or bank.

The guild is only about 125 total players which means less than 30 on at a time.

They do Trials, dailies and are PvE focused.
I'm enjoying this focus much more than the trader guilds where no one really plays together and the chat is full of WTS or mag of the day about donate or get kicked and some raffle mess.

To each its own. That's just me sharing a perspective cause you and others don't actually need global anything. If you're playing with like minded people....frequently you'll end up helping them and they in turn will help you

Bidding for Guild Traders probably isn't worth it for the average guild. That is another problem with the system. It favors only a select few - and they get most of the business.

I got no issues with you helping out your fellow guild mates instead of focusing on making gold. My only point was it's not easy to sell your stuff to a small or average guild that is not focused on trade. There just isn't enough demand and - just as you indicated - most of your stuff will likely just sit there unsold. You really need to belong to one of the larger trade guilds that are capable of getting a popular trading spot to effectively sell on this game.

Jeremy wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more I realize that the thing the current trader system rewards more than anything else is common sense. Take the following, for example:

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Joining 5 trade guilds also leaves you no room to join actual PvE or PvP guilds.

Then don't join five trade guilds. How hard is that to understand? Join two, then you've still got room for a PvE, PvP, and a RP guild. All of which, btw, are quite capable of having their own guild stores and biding on their own guild traders.

Seriously, you guys will grasp at any straw you can to justify turning ESO into WoW.

@Glurin
You're onto something there.

I'd edit it tho...."don't join any trade guilds at all"


The actual problem is people's thoughts that forming a guild to trade is somehow a good idea.


Imagine if Amazon, Bestbuy, Grocery stores, computer stores, hardware stores, etc all formed together so they could buy and sale from one another.

That wouldn't work at all

So then they try and establish a presence as one big have everything store. That also doesn't work because it's too broad and not focused on any one groups needs.


The answer is simple. Stop joining trading guilds and join a real guild

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more I realize that the thing the current trader system rewards more than anything else is common sense. Take the following, for example:

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Joining 5 trade guilds also leaves you no room to join actual PvE or PvP guilds.

Then don't join five trade guilds. How hard is that to understand? Join two, then you've still got room for a PvE, PvP, and a RP guild. All of which, btw, are quite capable of having their own guild stores and biding on their own guild traders.

Seriously, you guys will grasp at any straw you can to justify turning ESO into WoW.

@Glurin
You're onto something there.

I'd edit it tho...."don't join any trade guilds at all"


The actual problem is people's thoughts that forming a guild to trade is somehow a good idea.


Imagine if Amazon, Bestbuy, Grocery stores, computer stores, hardware stores, etc all formed together so they could buy and sale from one another.

That wouldn't work at all

So then they try and establish a presence as one big have everything store. That also doesn't work because it's too broad and not focused on any one groups needs.


The answer is simple. Stop joining trading guilds and join a real guild

It's not that simple because you really need to belong to a trading guild to get access to enough buyers to sell your goods. Otherwise you are more likely than not going to get stuck just selling everything to a in-game NPC.

This problem is only going to get worse too too when housing comes out and people have a cause to make a lot of money. Perhaps they should divide the server up or something - one with an auction house and the other with these guild trader things.

That way those who want an accessible and global market that accommodates everyone regardless of their guild will have one. And those who are paranoid about auction houses for what ever reason can keep their guild traders.

@Jeremy

Actually you don't. I decided when console launched not to ever join a trading guild or a guild who required fees to bid on a trader.

I went back on that for over a year and now I've gone back to it because here's the reality.

I went into the guild store of those 4 and realized that all we were doing is either matching everyone exact price or undercutting one another.

Then we'd give thousands each week just to hope we get a trader. Many times we would but it wasn't always the best spots so items would sit for days if they ever sold.


So later I decided to farm the good stuff to sale

Well I realized how dumb that idea was cause I was no longer spending much time playing. I was farming and grinding for stuff to sale and to make gold.

For me on Xbox one that cost was around 2500 to 7500 gold per week per guild.
Then each item takes a house cut as well as getting undercut

Last month....just playing very casually and doing quests and dlc no more than 2 hours a day four days a week.....I have gained over 100k.

No grinding just playing, selling within my main guild, or vendoring. Buying stuff from traders still



I literally will never go back to a trading guild because it's not actually worth it for the average player. Sure if you consider fun farming and making the most gold fun but for me and many others...we play to progress and do content.


One of the guilds I'm in...one main crafter literally crafts and upgrades to purple for free.

So being a crafter myself I started dropping a few items I crafted in the store or bank.

The guild is only about 125 total players which means less than 30 on at a time.

They do Trials, dailies and are PvE focused.
I'm enjoying this focus much more than the trader guilds where no one really plays together and the chat is full of WTS or mag of the day about donate or get kicked and some raffle mess.

To each its own. That's just me sharing a perspective cause you and others don't actually need global anything. If you're playing with like minded people....frequently you'll end up helping them and they in turn will help you

Bidding for Guild Traders probably isn't worth it for the average guild. That is another problem with the system. It favors only a select few - and they get most of the business.

I got no issues with you helping out your fellow guild mates instead of focusing on making gold. My only point was it's not easy to sell your stuff to a small or average guild that is not focused on trade. There just isn't enough demand and - just as you indicated - most of your stuff will likely just sit there unsold. You really need to belong to one of the larger trade guilds that are capable of getting a popular spot to trade to effectively sell on this game.

@Jeremy

RIGHT there isn't that much of a demand.
So not taking anything away from how you may want to play.....but it's the same players.

Here's what's happening. All of you joined thes guilds to sale stuff you don't want but stuff that's perceived to be wanted by others.

Reality is that ppl have to wised up and are joining real guilds. The real guilds tend to help one another so those items that you all are listing are for sale in the non-trader guilds for much less or free.

This isn't the case 100% but it contributes.
Typically the items ppl sale are

-mats for crafting
-new motif
-limited time motif
-trait research items
-BOE gear


Ok now I'm One Tamriel, other than motif, everyone who plays the game to progress is getting everything they need other than some motif.

Motif has absolutely no value if you're not a crafter whose making sets that ppl want.

Anyone can get sets by doing randoms, in purple.
Upgrading gear is very cheap and requires little to no crafting grind.

Upgrade mats drop other than gold so

YES the DEMAND is very low and will continue to drop

That's the light bulb.....why are you joining trading guilds. It's something you have to figure out and what's you're selling. Do ppl really need it cause they can't get it elsewhere. If so....are you're prices the best?


For me. I buy from the lower desired traders cause their prices are a lot lower or from my guild.

That's my experience tho.
U gotta figure what others are doing on your platform and server. Maybe it's time for a change

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more I realize that the thing the current trader system rewards more than anything else is common sense. Take the following, for example:

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Joining 5 trade guilds also leaves you no room to join actual PvE or PvP guilds.

Then don't join five trade guilds. How hard is that to understand? Join two, then you've still got room for a PvE, PvP, and a RP guild. All of which, btw, are quite capable of having their own guild stores and biding on their own guild traders.

Seriously, you guys will grasp at any straw you can to justify turning ESO into WoW.

@Glurin
You're onto something there.

I'd edit it tho...."don't join any trade guilds at all"


The actual problem is people's thoughts that forming a guild to trade is somehow a good idea.


Imagine if Amazon, Bestbuy, Grocery stores, computer stores, hardware stores, etc all formed together so they could buy and sale from one another.

That wouldn't work at all

So then they try and establish a presence as one big have everything store. That also doesn't work because it's too broad and not focused on any one groups needs.


The answer is simple. Stop joining trading guilds and join a real guild

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more I realize that the thing the current trader system rewards more than anything else is common sense. Take the following, for example:

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Joining 5 trade guilds also leaves you no room to join actual PvE or PvP guilds.

Then don't join five trade guilds. How hard is that to understand? Join two, then you've still got room for a PvE, PvP, and a RP guild. All of which, btw, are quite capable of having their own guild stores and biding on their own guild traders.

Seriously, you guys will grasp at any straw you can to justify turning ESO into WoW.

@Glurin
You're onto something there.

I'd edit it tho...."don't join any trade guilds at all"


The actual problem is people's thoughts that forming a guild to trade is somehow a good idea.


Imagine if Amazon, Bestbuy, Grocery stores, computer stores, hardware stores, etc all formed together so they could buy and sale from one another.

That wouldn't work at all

So then they try and establish a presence as one big have everything store. That also doesn't work because it's too broad and not focused on any one groups needs.


The answer is simple. Stop joining trading guilds and join a real guild

It's not that simple because you really need to belong to a trading guild to get access to enough buyers to sell your goods. Otherwise you are more likely than not going to get stuck just selling everything to a in-game NPC.

This problem is only going to get worse too too when housing comes out and people have a cause to make a lot of money. Perhaps they should divide the server up or something - one with an auction house and the other with these guild trader things.

That way those who want an accessible and global market that accommodates everyone regardless of their guild will have one. And those who are paranoid about auction houses for what ever reason can keep their guild traders.

@Jeremy

Actually you don't. I decided when console launched not to ever join a trading guild or a guild who required fees to bid on a trader.

I went back on that for over a year and now I've gone back to it because here's the reality.

I went into the guild store of those 4 and realized that all we were doing is either matching everyone exact price or undercutting one another.

Then we'd give thousands each week just to hope we get a trader. Many times we would but it wasn't always the best spots so items would sit for days if they ever sold.


So later I decided to farm the good stuff to sale

Well I realized how dumb that idea was cause I was no longer spending much time playing. I was farming and grinding for stuff to sale and to make gold.

For me on Xbox one that cost was around 2500 to 7500 gold per week per guild.
Then each item takes a house cut as well as getting undercut

Last month....just playing very casually and doing quests and dlc no more than 2 hours a day four days a week.....I have gained over 100k.

No grinding just playing, selling within my main guild, or vendoring. Buying stuff from traders still



I literally will never go back to a trading guild because it's not actually worth it for the average player. Sure if you consider fun farming and making the most gold fun but for me and many others...we play to progress and do content.


One of the guilds I'm in...one main crafter literally crafts and upgrades to purple for free.

So being a crafter myself I started dropping a few items I crafted in the store or bank.

The guild is only about 125 total players which means less than 30 on at a time.

They do Trials, dailies and are PvE focused.
I'm enjoying this focus much more than the trader guilds where no one really plays together and the chat is full of WTS or mag of the day about donate or get kicked and some raffle mess.

To each its own. That's just me sharing a perspective cause you and others don't actually need global anything. If you're playing with like minded people....frequently you'll end up helping them and they in turn will help you

Bidding for Guild Traders probably isn't worth it for the average guild. That is another problem with the system. It favors only a select few - and they get most of the business.

I got no issues with you helping out your fellow guild mates instead of focusing on making gold. My only point was it's not easy to sell your stuff to a small or average guild that is not focused on trade. There just isn't enough demand and - just as you indicated - most of your stuff will likely just sit there unsold. You really need to belong to one of the larger trade guilds that are capable of getting a popular spot to trade to effectively sell on this game.

@Jeremy

RIGHT there isn't that much of a demand.
So not taking anything away from how you may want to play.....but it's the same players.

Here's what's happening. All of you joined thes guilds to sale stuff you don't want but stuff that's perceived to be wanted by others.

Reality is that ppl have to wised up and are joining real guilds. The real guilds tend to help one another so those items that you all are listing are for sale in the non-trader guilds for much less or free.

This isn't the case 100% but it contributes.
Typically the items ppl sale are

-mats for crafting
-new motif
-limited time motif
-trait research items
-BOE gear


Ok now I'm One Tamriel, other than motif, everyone who plays the game to progress is getting everything they need other than some motif.

Motif has absolutely no value if you're not a crafter whose making sets that ppl want.

Anyone can get sets by doing randoms, in purple.
Upgrading gear is very cheap and requires little to no crafting grind.

Upgrade mats drop other than gold so

YES the DEMAND is very low and will continue to drop

That's the light bulb.....why are you joining trading guilds. It's something you have to figure out and what's you're selling. Do ppl really need it cause they can't get it elsewhere. If so....are you're prices the best?


For me. I buy from the lower desired traders cause their prices are a lot lower or from my guild.

That's my experience tho.
U gotta figure what others are doing on your platform and server. Maybe it's time for a change

My point is that demand is kept artificially low. Average guilds have a problem selling their goods not because there aren't players out there who want these items. It's because these players cannot access the popular markets where people go to buy them.

For example - I have no problems selling crafting materials and set pieces in my trading guild - where as it would take weeks if I got lucky to sell any of it in my other guilds that don't have access to popular guild traders. An auction house would fix that issue and give everyone access.

I would agree with you that it is much easier to farm crafting mats in One Tamriel. But legendary tempers can still be pain to farm up and are worth buying. So can the overland set pieces. So I would not say it is only motifs, though those certainly have value..

Speaking of motifs... if anything describes the perfect nightmare using the guild trader system can be it is shifting through those endless lists trying to find the one you want. i don't even want to remind myself how many hours I spent trying to find a Trinimac Chest motif for sale. Which - btw - I never found.

Jeremy wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more I realize that the thing the current trader system rewards more than anything else is common sense. Take the following, for example:

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Joining 5 trade guilds also leaves you no room to join actual PvE or PvP guilds.

Then don't join five trade guilds. How hard is that to understand? Join two, then you've still got room for a PvE, PvP, and a RP guild. All of which, btw, are quite capable of having their own guild stores and biding on their own guild traders.

Seriously, you guys will grasp at any straw you can to justify turning ESO into WoW.

@Glurin
You're onto something there.

I'd edit it tho...."don't join any trade guilds at all"


The actual problem is people's thoughts that forming a guild to trade is somehow a good idea.


Imagine if Amazon, Bestbuy, Grocery stores, computer stores, hardware stores, etc all formed together so they could buy and sale from one another.

That wouldn't work at all

So then they try and establish a presence as one big have everything store. That also doesn't work because it's too broad and not focused on any one groups needs.


The answer is simple. Stop joining trading guilds and join a real guild

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more I realize that the thing the current trader system rewards more than anything else is common sense. Take the following, for example:

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Joining 5 trade guilds also leaves you no room to join actual PvE or PvP guilds.

Then don't join five trade guilds. How hard is that to understand? Join two, then you've still got room for a PvE, PvP, and a RP guild. All of which, btw, are quite capable of having their own guild stores and biding on their own guild traders.

Seriously, you guys will grasp at any straw you can to justify turning ESO into WoW.

@Glurin
You're onto something there.

I'd edit it tho...."don't join any trade guilds at all"


The actual problem is people's thoughts that forming a guild to trade is somehow a good idea.


Imagine if Amazon, Bestbuy, Grocery stores, computer stores, hardware stores, etc all formed together so they could buy and sale from one another.

That wouldn't work at all

So then they try and establish a presence as one big have everything store. That also doesn't work because it's too broad and not focused on any one groups needs.


The answer is simple. Stop joining trading guilds and join a real guild

It's not that simple because you really need to belong to a trading guild to get access to enough buyers to sell your goods. Otherwise you are more likely than not going to get stuck just selling everything to a in-game NPC.

This problem is only going to get worse too too when housing comes out and people have a cause to make a lot of money. Perhaps they should divide the server up or something - one with an auction house and the other with these guild trader things.

That way those who want an accessible and global market that accommodates everyone regardless of their guild will have one. And those who are paranoid about auction houses for what ever reason can keep their guild traders.

@Jeremy

Actually you don't. I decided when console launched not to ever join a trading guild or a guild who required fees to bid on a trader.

I went back on that for over a year and now I've gone back to it because here's the reality.

I went into the guild store of those 4 and realized that all we were doing is either matching everyone exact price or undercutting one another.

Then we'd give thousands each week just to hope we get a trader. Many times we would but it wasn't always the best spots so items would sit for days if they ever sold.


So later I decided to farm the good stuff to sale

Well I realized how dumb that idea was cause I was no longer spending much time playing. I was farming and grinding for stuff to sale and to make gold.

For me on Xbox one that cost was around 2500 to 7500 gold per week per guild.
Then each item takes a house cut as well as getting undercut

Last month....just playing very casually and doing quests and dlc no more than 2 hours a day four days a week.....I have gained over 100k.

No grinding just playing, selling within my main guild, or vendoring. Buying stuff from traders still



I literally will never go back to a trading guild because it's not actually worth it for the average player. Sure if you consider fun farming and making the most gold fun but for me and many others...we play to progress and do content.


One of the guilds I'm in...one main crafter literally crafts and upgrades to purple for free.

So being a crafter myself I started dropping a few items I crafted in the store or bank.

The guild is only about 125 total players which means less than 30 on at a time.

They do Trials, dailies and are PvE focused.
I'm enjoying this focus much more than the trader guilds where no one really plays together and the chat is full of WTS or mag of the day about donate or get kicked and some raffle mess.

To each its own. That's just me sharing a perspective cause you and others don't actually need global anything. If you're playing with like minded people....frequently you'll end up helping them and they in turn will help you

Bidding for Guild Traders probably isn't worth it for the average guild. That is another problem with the system. It favors only a select few - and they get most of the business.

I got no issues with you helping out your fellow guild mates instead of focusing on making gold. My only point was it's not easy to sell your stuff to a small or average guild that is not focused on trade. There just isn't enough demand and - just as you indicated - most of your stuff will likely just sit there unsold. You really need to belong to one of the larger trade guilds that are capable of getting a popular spot to trade to effectively sell on this game.

@Jeremy

RIGHT there isn't that much of a demand.
So not taking anything away from how you may want to play.....but it's the same players.

Here's what's happening. All of you joined thes guilds to sale stuff you don't want but stuff that's perceived to be wanted by others.

Reality is that ppl have to wised up and are joining real guilds. The real guilds tend to help one another so those items that you all are listing are for sale in the non-trader guilds for much less or free.

This isn't the case 100% but it contributes.
Typically the items ppl sale are

-mats for crafting
-new motif
-limited time motif
-trait research items
-BOE gear


Ok now I'm One Tamriel, other than motif, everyone who plays the game to progress is getting everything they need other than some motif.

Motif has absolutely no value if you're not a crafter whose making sets that ppl want.

Anyone can get sets by doing randoms, in purple.
Upgrading gear is very cheap and requires little to no crafting grind.

Upgrade mats drop other than gold so

YES the DEMAND is very low and will continue to drop

That's the light bulb.....why are you joining trading guilds. It's something you have to figure out and what's you're selling. Do ppl really need it cause they can't get it elsewhere. If so....are you're prices the best?


For me. I buy from the lower desired traders cause their prices are a lot lower or from my guild.

That's my experience tho.
U gotta figure what others are doing on your platform and server. Maybe it's time for a change

My point is that demand is kept artificially low. Average guilds have a problem selling their goods not because there aren't players out there who want these items. It's because these players cannot access the popular markets where people go to buy them.

For example - I have no problems selling crafting materials and set pieces in my trading guild - where as it would take weeks if I got lucky to sell any of it in my other guilds that don't have access to popular guild traders. An auction house would fix that issue and give everyone access.

I would agree with you that it is much easier to farm crafting mats in One Tamriel. But legendary tempers can still be pain to farm up and are worth buying. So can the overland set pieces. So I would not say it is only motifs, though those certainly have value..

Speaking of motifs... if anything describes the perfect nightmare using the guild trader system can be it is shifting through those endless lists trying to find the one you want. i don't even want to remind myself how many hours I spent trying to find a Trinimac Chest motif for sale. Which - btw - I never found.

People use TTC to find what they want for sale, its just the same way as if we all had a central market place for the entire game tbh.

Jeremy wrote: »

As I outlined (and as you almost acknowledged) - addons that track prices have already rendered your efforts to shield your prices from the competition of an open market moot. So you can isolate and scatter the markets all you want - it no longer matters at this point because the capital hubs where most of the business is done in tandem with these addons is already controlling the prices. So you now have a central economy rather you like it or not.

I reject this, mainly because it is not supported by what is happening in the game, at least not from what I see.

First, the market monitoring addons are still limited in scope and cannot be used for setting prices globally. Sure, a player can be in 5 guilds, all with traders in Mournhold or Rawl'kha, and that is great for them if they only sell in those places. However, the market is free to set prices as they see fit elsewhere. People do not have to sell in Vulkhel Guard at the same price as people sell in Mournhold, and those selling in VG may have no idea what the price even is in Mournhold. I question whether the people selling at a trader in VG even pay attention to the prices at other traders in VG.

The addons do not control the prices. If you get 5 people together and ask them what something is worth, you will get 5 answers. We all have different sources of information, and so we all have different average guild values. While it is easy to just list things at the MM suggested price, I often find that this price is not suitable for every guild trader. Particularly for high volume items.

Just because Rawl'kha is a popular trade center does not make it part of a central economy. Only one of my guild traders is in Rawl'kha, and that trader is great for high volume materials and equipment that the End Game Meta crowd wants. They hang out in Rawl spamming skills, dueling, and buying expensive stuff at the traders. Meanwhile, I can also sell stuff at other guild traders, not in major trading cities, and I don't have to pay any attention at all to what the Rawl price is. Frankly, this stuff would not sell in Rawl because no one there wants my unused Level 33 gloves of blue superiority that I picked up questing.

I used to see recipes of all types, sold for cheap, at some out of the way trader in Malabal Tor. For a long time, that trader was a good place to go to get cheap recipes. There is another trader that does the same thing, not that I will tell y'all where, and they sell recipes there that cost 10x as much in Rawl. This would not exist under a global auction house, at least not for more than a few seconds.

Jeremy wrote: »

The refusal to get behind a auction house is just hurting the trading guilds at this point and limiting the amount of customers they can have. In other words: it's costing you money and it's not making you more profits. You are currently getting none of the benefits of an open market (higher demand and access) yet still competing with every other guild trader out there (due to these addons that track prices). It's a very stupid system and I can't believe people still support it.

It is a good system. It works well to limit the ease at which global markets can be controlled. It serves as a massive gold sink for ZOS. It fits well into the Elder Scrolls environment. It was the right decision to make, and the right direction to take.

It needs to address some things that are incomplete. It needs some basic QoL improvements to make it easier to search for items. ZOS needs to make it easier to find guilds that have traders and open slots, so they can access the traders.

The situation would not improve in a global venue. The "open market" would probably consist of the relatively small number of players who play the Auction House Game. They would probably benefit, and this is one demographic I do expect to find in here advocating a global auction house.

Kyle1983b14_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more I realize that the thing the current trader system rewards more than anything else is common sense. Take the following, for example:

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Joining 5 trade guilds also leaves you no room to join actual PvE or PvP guilds.

Then don't join five trade guilds. How hard is that to understand? Join two, then you've still got room for a PvE, PvP, and a RP guild. All of which, btw, are quite capable of having their own guild stores and biding on their own guild traders.

Seriously, you guys will grasp at any straw you can to justify turning ESO into WoW.

@Glurin
You're onto something there.

I'd edit it tho...."don't join any trade guilds at all"


The actual problem is people's thoughts that forming a guild to trade is somehow a good idea.


Imagine if Amazon, Bestbuy, Grocery stores, computer stores, hardware stores, etc all formed together so they could buy and sale from one another.

That wouldn't work at all

So then they try and establish a presence as one big have everything store. That also doesn't work because it's too broad and not focused on any one groups needs.


The answer is simple. Stop joining trading guilds and join a real guild

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more I realize that the thing the current trader system rewards more than anything else is common sense. Take the following, for example:

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Joining 5 trade guilds also leaves you no room to join actual PvE or PvP guilds.

Then don't join five trade guilds. How hard is that to understand? Join two, then you've still got room for a PvE, PvP, and a RP guild. All of which, btw, are quite capable of having their own guild stores and biding on their own guild traders.

Seriously, you guys will grasp at any straw you can to justify turning ESO into WoW.

@Glurin
You're onto something there.

I'd edit it tho...."don't join any trade guilds at all"


The actual problem is people's thoughts that forming a guild to trade is somehow a good idea.


Imagine if Amazon, Bestbuy, Grocery stores, computer stores, hardware stores, etc all formed together so they could buy and sale from one another.

That wouldn't work at all

So then they try and establish a presence as one big have everything store. That also doesn't work because it's too broad and not focused on any one groups needs.


The answer is simple. Stop joining trading guilds and join a real guild

It's not that simple because you really need to belong to a trading guild to get access to enough buyers to sell your goods. Otherwise you are more likely than not going to get stuck just selling everything to a in-game NPC.

This problem is only going to get worse too too when housing comes out and people have a cause to make a lot of money. Perhaps they should divide the server up or something - one with an auction house and the other with these guild trader things.

That way those who want an accessible and global market that accommodates everyone regardless of their guild will have one. And those who are paranoid about auction houses for what ever reason can keep their guild traders.

@Jeremy

Actually you don't. I decided when console launched not to ever join a trading guild or a guild who required fees to bid on a trader.

I went back on that for over a year and now I've gone back to it because here's the reality.

I went into the guild store of those 4 and realized that all we were doing is either matching everyone exact price or undercutting one another.

Then we'd give thousands each week just to hope we get a trader. Many times we would but it wasn't always the best spots so items would sit for days if they ever sold.


So later I decided to farm the good stuff to sale

Well I realized how dumb that idea was cause I was no longer spending much time playing. I was farming and grinding for stuff to sale and to make gold.

For me on Xbox one that cost was around 2500 to 7500 gold per week per guild.
Then each item takes a house cut as well as getting undercut

Last month....just playing very casually and doing quests and dlc no more than 2 hours a day four days a week.....I have gained over 100k.

No grinding just playing, selling within my main guild, or vendoring. Buying stuff from traders still



I literally will never go back to a trading guild because it's not actually worth it for the average player. Sure if you consider fun farming and making the most gold fun but for me and many others...we play to progress and do content.


One of the guilds I'm in...one main crafter literally crafts and upgrades to purple for free.

So being a crafter myself I started dropping a few items I crafted in the store or bank.

The guild is only about 125 total players which means less than 30 on at a time.

They do Trials, dailies and are PvE focused.
I'm enjoying this focus much more than the trader guilds where no one really plays together and the chat is full of WTS or mag of the day about donate or get kicked and some raffle mess.

To each its own. That's just me sharing a perspective cause you and others don't actually need global anything. If you're playing with like minded people....frequently you'll end up helping them and they in turn will help you

Bidding for Guild Traders probably isn't worth it for the average guild. That is another problem with the system. It favors only a select few - and they get most of the business.

I got no issues with you helping out your fellow guild mates instead of focusing on making gold. My only point was it's not easy to sell your stuff to a small or average guild that is not focused on trade. There just isn't enough demand and - just as you indicated - most of your stuff will likely just sit there unsold. You really need to belong to one of the larger trade guilds that are capable of getting a popular spot to trade to effectively sell on this game.

@Jeremy

RIGHT there isn't that much of a demand.
So not taking anything away from how you may want to play.....but it's the same players.

Here's what's happening. All of you joined thes guilds to sale stuff you don't want but stuff that's perceived to be wanted by others.

Reality is that ppl have to wised up and are joining real guilds. The real guilds tend to help one another so those items that you all are listing are for sale in the non-trader guilds for much less or free.

This isn't the case 100% but it contributes.
Typically the items ppl sale are

-mats for crafting
-new motif
-limited time motif
-trait research items
-BOE gear


Ok now I'm One Tamriel, other than motif, everyone who plays the game to progress is getting everything they need other than some motif.

Motif has absolutely no value if you're not a crafter whose making sets that ppl want.

Anyone can get sets by doing randoms, in purple.
Upgrading gear is very cheap and requires little to no crafting grind.

Upgrade mats drop other than gold so

YES the DEMAND is very low and will continue to drop

That's the light bulb.....why are you joining trading guilds. It's something you have to figure out and what's you're selling. Do ppl really need it cause they can't get it elsewhere. If so....are you're prices the best?


For me. I buy from the lower desired traders cause their prices are a lot lower or from my guild.

That's my experience tho.
U gotta figure what others are doing on your platform and server. Maybe it's time for a change

My point is that demand is kept artificially low. Average guilds have a problem selling their goods not because there aren't players out there who want these items. It's because these players cannot access the popular markets where people go to buy them.

For example - I have no problems selling crafting materials and set pieces in my trading guild - where as it would take weeks if I got lucky to sell any of it in my other guilds that don't have access to popular guild traders. An auction house would fix that issue and give everyone access.

I would agree with you that it is much easier to farm crafting mats in One Tamriel. But legendary tempers can still be pain to farm up and are worth buying. So can the overland set pieces. So I would not say it is only motifs, though those certainly have value..

Speaking of motifs... if anything describes the perfect nightmare using the guild trader system can be it is shifting through those endless lists trying to find the one you want. i don't even want to remind myself how many hours I spent trying to find a Trinimac Chest motif for sale. Which - btw - I never found.

People use TTC to find what they want for sale, its just the same way as if we all had a central market place for the entire game tbh.

I was trying to make that point in an earlier post - that many of the addons in this game have basically given us a centralized economy anyway. So that Guild Traders don't serve any useful function - not even from the perspective of those who favor a decentralized economy. All they do is exclude players from being able to participate in the economy. At this point - that really is all they accomplish.

I don't use addons out of principle. So that's why I have to rely on the in-game mechanisms to search for my stuff.

ignore this.

Jeremy wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Kyle1983b14_ESO wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

thomas1970b16_ESO wrote: »

The trader system in ESO is one of the great things about the game.

No it's not it's horrible it's annoying

^ 2nd, To many exploits / monopolies in game now that control the entire games market system.

Bull. The trader system by design prevents monopolies. At best you can get five guilds together to take five traders in Rawl'kha or something for a week. At GINORMOUS expense, and that still leaves several traders in Rawl'kha alone that are outside your control.

I suppose in theory you could create multiple accounts to create numerous trade guilds for the express purpose of taking control of every trader in Rawl'kha or Mournhold or whatever, but if you're going to go that far, then I have to ask, wtf is wrong with you? Get a life, man. You're gonna wind up one of those people dying of starvation in an internet cafe if you keep that up.

If you want to prevent monopolies - the best way to do that is give everyone access to the market so everyone can compete. In other words: an auction house.

^, and he tells me to get a life, I wonder if he's one for insider trading as well.

Jeremy wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more I realize that the thing the current trader system rewards more than anything else is common sense. Take the following, for example:

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Joining 5 trade guilds also leaves you no room to join actual PvE or PvP guilds.

Then don't join five trade guilds. How hard is that to understand? Join two, then you've still got room for a PvE, PvP, and a RP guild. All of which, btw, are quite capable of having their own guild stores and biding on their own guild traders.

Seriously, you guys will grasp at any straw you can to justify turning ESO into WoW.

@Glurin
You're onto something there.

I'd edit it tho...."don't join any trade guilds at all"


The actual problem is people's thoughts that forming a guild to trade is somehow a good idea.


Imagine if Amazon, Bestbuy, Grocery stores, computer stores, hardware stores, etc all formed together so they could buy and sale from one another.

That wouldn't work at all

So then they try and establish a presence as one big have everything store. That also doesn't work because it's too broad and not focused on any one groups needs.


The answer is simple. Stop joining trading guilds and join a real guild

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more I realize that the thing the current trader system rewards more than anything else is common sense. Take the following, for example:

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Joining 5 trade guilds also leaves you no room to join actual PvE or PvP guilds.

Then don't join five trade guilds. How hard is that to understand? Join two, then you've still got room for a PvE, PvP, and a RP guild. All of which, btw, are quite capable of having their own guild stores and biding on their own guild traders.

Seriously, you guys will grasp at any straw you can to justify turning ESO into WoW.

@Glurin
You're onto something there.

I'd edit it tho...."don't join any trade guilds at all"


The actual problem is people's thoughts that forming a guild to trade is somehow a good idea.


Imagine if Amazon, Bestbuy, Grocery stores, computer stores, hardware stores, etc all formed together so they could buy and sale from one another.

That wouldn't work at all

So then they try and establish a presence as one big have everything store. That also doesn't work because it's too broad and not focused on any one groups needs.


The answer is simple. Stop joining trading guilds and join a real guild

It's not that simple because you really need to belong to a trading guild to get access to enough buyers to sell your goods. Otherwise you are more likely than not going to get stuck just selling everything to a in-game NPC.

This problem is only going to get worse too too when housing comes out and people have a cause to make a lot of money. Perhaps they should divide the server up or something - one with an auction house and the other with these guild trader things.

That way those who want an accessible and global market that accommodates everyone regardless of their guild will have one. And those who are paranoid about auction houses for what ever reason can keep their guild traders.

@Jeremy

Actually you don't. I decided when console launched not to ever join a trading guild or a guild who required fees to bid on a trader.

I went back on that for over a year and now I've gone back to it because here's the reality.

I went into the guild store of those 4 and realized that all we were doing is either matching everyone exact price or undercutting one another.

Then we'd give thousands each week just to hope we get a trader. Many times we would but it wasn't always the best spots so items would sit for days if they ever sold.


So later I decided to farm the good stuff to sale

Well I realized how dumb that idea was cause I was no longer spending much time playing. I was farming and grinding for stuff to sale and to make gold.

For me on Xbox one that cost was around 2500 to 7500 gold per week per guild.
Then each item takes a house cut as well as getting undercut

Last month....just playing very casually and doing quests and dlc no more than 2 hours a day four days a week.....I have gained over 100k.

No grinding just playing, selling within my main guild, or vendoring. Buying stuff from traders still



I literally will never go back to a trading guild because it's not actually worth it for the average player. Sure if you consider fun farming and making the most gold fun but for me and many others...we play to progress and do content.


One of the guilds I'm in...one main crafter literally crafts and upgrades to purple for free.

So being a crafter myself I started dropping a few items I crafted in the store or bank.

The guild is only about 125 total players which means less than 30 on at a time.

They do Trials, dailies and are PvE focused.
I'm enjoying this focus much more than the trader guilds where no one really plays together and the chat is full of WTS or mag of the day about donate or get kicked and some raffle mess.

To each its own. That's just me sharing a perspective cause you and others don't actually need global anything. If you're playing with like minded people....frequently you'll end up helping them and they in turn will help you

Bidding for Guild Traders probably isn't worth it for the average guild. That is another problem with the system. It favors only a select few - and they get most of the business.

I got no issues with you helping out your fellow guild mates instead of focusing on making gold. My only point was it's not easy to sell your stuff to a small or average guild that is not focused on trade. There just isn't enough demand and - just as you indicated - most of your stuff will likely just sit there unsold. You really need to belong to one of the larger trade guilds that are capable of getting a popular spot to trade to effectively sell on this game.

@Jeremy

RIGHT there isn't that much of a demand.
So not taking anything away from how you may want to play.....but it's the same players.

Here's what's happening. All of you joined thes guilds to sale stuff you don't want but stuff that's perceived to be wanted by others.

Reality is that ppl have to wised up and are joining real guilds. The real guilds tend to help one another so those items that you all are listing are for sale in the non-trader guilds for much less or free.

This isn't the case 100% but it contributes.
Typically the items ppl sale are

-mats for crafting
-new motif
-limited time motif
-trait research items
-BOE gear


Ok now I'm One Tamriel, other than motif, everyone who plays the game to progress is getting everything they need other than some motif.

Motif has absolutely no value if you're not a crafter whose making sets that ppl want.

Anyone can get sets by doing randoms, in purple.
Upgrading gear is very cheap and requires little to no crafting grind.

Upgrade mats drop other than gold so

YES the DEMAND is very low and will continue to drop

That's the light bulb.....why are you joining trading guilds. It's something you have to figure out and what's you're selling. Do ppl really need it cause they can't get it elsewhere. If so....are you're prices the best?


For me. I buy from the lower desired traders cause their prices are a lot lower or from my guild.

That's my experience tho.
U gotta figure what others are doing on your platform and server. Maybe it's time for a change

My point is that demand is kept artificially low. Average guilds have a problem selling their goods not because there aren't players out there who want these items. It's because these players cannot access the popular markets where people go to buy them.

For example - I have no problems selling crafting materials and set pieces in my trading guild - where as it would take weeks if I got lucky to sell any of it in my other guilds that don't have access to popular guild traders. An auction house would fix that issue and give everyone access.

I would agree with you that it is much easier to farm crafting mats in One Tamriel. But legendary tempers can still be pain to farm up and are worth buying. So can the overland set pieces. So I would not say it is only motifs, though those certainly have value as well.

Speaking of motifs... if anything describes the perfect nightmare using the guild trader system can be it is shifting through those endless lists trying to find the one you want. i don't even want to remind myself how many hours I spent trying to find a Trinimac Chest motif for sale.

@Jeremy

You're missing the context

Are you in a trading guild cause you like to farm stuff for the sole purpose of selling it for gold?

If yes...to what end?

Wouldn't be much more fun to just play with like minded people and pool together resources so you all have all the mats I'll ever need?

Pretty much. I'm in a trading guild so I can actually sell my stuff and make some real gold. I'm going to need it - especially if i want to get a manor. So that is the end I am hoping to achieve by joining one.

I belong to a guild that would pool their resources but it has all but died. I don't like being overly dependent on others for what I need anyway. I also play this game too casually to join a serious PvE guild as I would not be able to commit the necessary time and participation to warrant me taking a share of their hard earned loot.

@Jeremy

O K thanks for all the discussion

To each their own.

For me....what you're doing seems to contribute to your frustrations.

Because I know there's a better way for me with much less stress and have calculated that being in 3-4 trading guilds with top traders, the cost and farming and grinding causes me to make less money than if I were to continue playing casually with no fees, sell only stuff I accidentally get from doing what I enjoy.

This leads to profit cause there is no cost. Any item sold is worth more sold vs sitting if I have no plans to use it.

In terms of the ideas around making enough to buy a house....if I accidentally profit $100k in a month I'm sure ppl who aren't casual are making many hundreds of thousands.

This means by joining PvE guilds which are progressive, I'd make more cause they would buy more for less which actually makes me more money in the long run.

Not hardcore PvE guilds but just those who do Trials weekly and Vet dungeons daily as well as dlc questing and group stuff. Heck even to events


It's not how much you make. It's how much you have after all your expenses.
If I were doing this all year vs existing time and money in trading guilds. I'd already have a few million.

Jeremy wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

My point is that demand is kept artificially low. Average guilds have a problem selling their goods not because there aren't players out there who want these items. It's because these players cannot access the popular markets where people go to buy them.

Bull. Again.

Firstly, even without a trader you've still got as many as 499 other people that can access your wares. The only reason they couldn't is if your guild is particularly small and thus does not have a guild store at all. Having a trader, any trader, opens your store to the entire population of Tamriel, even if he's in an out of the way spot.

If you think it's bull then go try selling your stuff at some out of the way trader that no one visits.

Let me know how that goes.

Or better yet one that doesn't even own a guild trader.

Kyle1983b14_ESO wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

No it is not DESPERATELY needed.

The current system works fine. Could it be adjusted and made better? Yes. If your trade guilds are demanding fees, dump em and find new guilds. I can't imagine needing 5 trade guilds. The most I ever had was 3 and I had a hard time keeping them all full. I'm now down to one full time trade guild and one part time trade guild.

Global AH has a whole set of other problems that would be bigger probled than what the current system has.

The only thing I could see is allowing a way for smaller guilds who have kiosks but don't have a full roster to open slots to non members for an extra fee. Or put a couple of permanent non guild kiosks in the 3 major cities and possibly one in a few smaller cities like Skywatch, Belkarth, Windhelm, etc to allow people that don't have any items listed elsewhere to list on that kiosk at a max of 500 people per kiosk. That would allow 3000 or so people to list items without having a trade guild per se.

I'd rather have a centralized Market than one/two guilds controlling the whole games economy imo.

You do realize with an AH it would only be a few people that control the market. I'm in 5 guilds, 4 with traders, same spots almost every week, 5k dues for each guild, a whopping 20k, I can steal more than that in an hour.

Pro AH people seem to think there's some conspiracy with guilds, ha. You honestly think they all have some secret meeting spot and discuss what prices should be for the week? With this system there isn't much that isn't controlled by the players. I set my prices, not my GM.

What I have seen in games with an AH is the opposite. For example I can see every temper on an AH and snipe all of them, I can then control the supply, therfore control the price. Unless you want to buy singles from in game chat. I could do all of this from a single location, add a few friends to do the same and there we have a monopoly on said items. Now tempers are 25k instead of 12 (console). Now instead of bots farming mats they will farm the AH (PC). Sorry an AH is a short sighted solution.

We need a better UI for the system that's in place, maybe a few pawn stores for those without guilds. We don't need an AH.

Stopnaggin wrote: »

Kyle1983b14_ESO wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

No it is not DESPERATELY needed.

The current system works fine. Could it be adjusted and made better? Yes. If your trade guilds are demanding fees, dump em and find new guilds. I can't imagine needing 5 trade guilds. The most I ever had was 3 and I had a hard time keeping them all full. I'm now down to one full time trade guild and one part time trade guild.

Global AH has a whole set of other problems that would be bigger probled than what the current system has.

The only thing I could see is allowing a way for smaller guilds who have kiosks but don't have a full roster to open slots to non members for an extra fee. Or put a couple of permanent non guild kiosks in the 3 major cities and possibly one in a few smaller cities like Skywatch, Belkarth, Windhelm, etc to allow people that don't have any items listed elsewhere to list on that kiosk at a max of 500 people per kiosk. That would allow 3000 or so people to list items without having a trade guild per se.

I'd rather have a centralized Market than one/two guilds controlling the whole games economy imo.

You do realize with an AH it would only be a few people that control the market. I'm in 5 guilds, 4 with traders, same spots almost every week, 5k dues for each guild, a whopping 20k, I can steal more than that in an hour.

Pro AH people seem to think there's some conspiracy with guilds, ha. You honestly think they all have some secret meeting spot and discuss what prices should be for the week? With this system there isn't much that isn't controlled by the players. I set my prices, not my GM.

What I have seen in games with an AH is the opposite. For example I can see every temper on an AH and snipe all of them, I can then control the supply, therfore control the price. Unless you want to buy singles from in game chat. I could do all of this from a single location, add a few friends to do the same and there we have a monopoly on said items. Now tempers are 25k instead of 12 (console). Now instead of bots farming mats they will farm the AH (PC). Sorry an AH is a short sighted solution.

We need a better UI for the system that's in place, maybe a few pawn stores for those without guilds. We don't need an AH.

@Stopnaggin

Here's a scary idea

Ppl will fight me on this but just remove all traders literally. No global AH either.

Keep the guild stores tho and we are all open to changes in the guild store UI

I'm not against ppl using traders tho but when I read pops gripes. I'm like.....dude...you're going about it all wrong so that's why ur upset.


I will say that while the conspiracy theory exists. There are conversations around trader spots but nothing's preventing anyone else from jumping in. Nothing but gold.

To each their own but I'd be very upset if anything global was added.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

To each their own but I'd be very upset if anything global was added.

So, as a potential seller you'd be upset by a system that gives you the most immediate access to the most number of potential customers, so offering higher sales revenues?

And as a buyer you'd be upset that the system gave you access to the most number of potential sellers, so offering competition that leads to better value for money?

Really?

All The Best

Moonfish wrote: »

To put it bluntly: Guild Vendor suck and they dont work. Not only because its hard to find a guild with the items you want - forcing to go all around Tamriel looking for that extra Jazbay Grape. It sucks if you are part of a guild with no Guild Merchant. I have several legendary and useful items in my bank. No way to share with the world. Plus all those crazy taxes and guilding asking money. Like many console players I can spend a lot of time without playing the game, wich means guilds will kick me off.

Why not simply have Auction Houses where every one in Tamriel can freely exchange stuff. If one is too much, you can have one for each faction.
Right now if I cant find what I need from the GV near Elder Wood, [snip] it. I wont go around like an old lady in a giant shopping mall.

[Edit for censor bypassing]

If there was a universal spot for everyone to sell items the price of items would just constantly go down.... People would be competing so hard to the point they dragged the whole market to crap.

Is that a good enough reason?

Oh hey big surprise another thread on the forums that if Zos took seriously and implemented changes watch the game change for the worse.... I some times wish they just didn't pay attention to these forums and the people complaining...

And to all you complainers writing full on essays... FYI.... NO ONE READS WHAT YOUR TYPING!!!

No.