MythicEmperor wrote: »

theslynx wrote: »

To be clear: the thread you made argued that we should be able to keep slaves, and was not abstract discussion of slavery in the lore. Arguing that this is censorship or about 'SJW' sensibilities involves a certain amount of obfuscation. Personally, I think closing the thread was unnecessary, but it's not my call, and we agreed to ZOS' stewardship when we agreed to join this forum.

Beyond that, you're conflating what ZOS has decided is or is not permissible within the game space they own with some broader social framework dictating your actions. That would be like going to someone's house and wanting to talk about your sexual fetishes to the point you don't get invited back again. You can feel disgruntled all you like, but it's not because of some pernicious social agenda towards 'coddling' encroaching upon your freedom; it's their house, their rules.

ZOS made decisions about what to depict and what to include as player interaction. There is slavery in the series, but you're (mostly) unable to engage in it. There's a significant difference there; depiction of acts adds to all that grit that gives the world depth, but ZOS felt uncomfortable with crossing the line into allowing players to engage in it directly. You've presented the choice as 'embrace the darkness for depth' or 'sacrifice all depth,' and that's obviously fallacious.

There's some irony here, too. You can't really argue that we're being coddled by sensitive types who cry when they don't get their way, and then toss around epithets like 'children' and 'triggered SJWs' when people disagree and you don't get your way.

While your points make a certain amount of sense, I respectfully disagree. I do not understand how my old post is appalling in any way. The old post only discussed slavery in the form of an assistant who carried your items. It could be implemented as a housecarl to the same effect, it was simply a suggestion. I was not asking for torture or anything else horrific. I was merely suggesting that an assistant would be an easy way to implement slavery (a huge part of Dunmeri culture), whether overtly or implied.

Okay, new plan. Roll a pact Khajiit. Buy the banker. Run around grabbing stuff for him. There, now you have an inoffensive way to roleplay this aspect of Dunmeri culture.

MythicEmperor wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

theslynx wrote: »

To be clear: the thread you made argued that we should be able to keep slaves, and was not abstract discussion of slavery in the lore. Arguing that this is censorship or about 'SJW' sensibilities involves a certain amount of obfuscation. Personally, I think closing the thread was unnecessary, but it's not my call, and we agreed to ZOS' stewardship when we agreed to join this forum.

Beyond that, you're conflating what ZOS has decided is or is not permissible within the game space they own with some broader social framework dictating your actions. That would be like going to someone's house and wanting to talk about your sexual fetishes to the point you don't get invited back again. You can feel disgruntled all you like, but it's not because of some pernicious social agenda towards 'coddling' encroaching upon your freedom; it's their house, their rules.

ZOS made decisions about what to depict and what to include as player interaction. There is slavery in the series, but you're (mostly) unable to engage in it. There's a significant difference there; depiction of acts adds to all that grit that gives the world depth, but ZOS felt uncomfortable with crossing the line into allowing players to engage in it directly. You've presented the choice as 'embrace the darkness for depth' or 'sacrifice all depth,' and that's obviously fallacious.

There's some irony here, too. You can't really argue that we're being coddled by sensitive types who cry when they don't get their way, and then toss around epithets like 'children' and 'triggered SJWs' when people disagree and you don't get your way.

While your points make a certain amount of sense, I respectfully disagree. I do not understand how my old post is appalling in any way. The old post only discussed slavery in the form of an assistant who carried your items. It could be implemented as a housecarl to the same effect, it was simply a suggestion. I was not asking for torture or anything else horrific. I was merely suggesting that an assistant would be an easy way to implement slavery (a huge part of Dunmeri culture), whether overtly or implied.

Okay, new plan. Roll a pact Khajiit. Buy the banker. Run around grabbing stuff for him. There, now you have an inoffensive way to roleplay this aspect of Dunmeri culture.

What an interesting idea. How about next time, instead of joining the dark brotherhood and becoming an assassin, you can roll an alt and run into a hostile area to simulate being assassinated? Or, next time you wish to do a thieves guild mission, you can destroy all of your items to pretend you were robbed? It doesn't work. I do not see how brutally murdering innocent civilians and hearing them gurgle and choke on their own blood during a dark brotherhood contract is more "offensive" than owning a slave.

I see where you're getting confused. Instead of joining the Dark Brotherhood, what you need to do is go into Cyrodiil in civilian clothes.

Instead of joining the TG, all you need to do is engage in lots of trading in zone, at slightly unfavorable rates, then get scammed. But, be sure to scream about it in zone at every opportunity.

Or, you know, don't fantasize about being able to buy slaves, because that's all kinds of messed up.

phairdon wrote: »

Question for me is, is slavery anymore disturbing than sneaking up behind a npc with the blade of woe, and sticking it through their skull?

Yeah. Missynced animations are kinda freaky, but slavery is an all to real evil.

starkerealm wrote: »

phairdon wrote: »

Question for me is, is slavery anymore disturbing than sneaking up behind a npc with the blade of woe, and sticking it through their skull?

Yeah. Missynced animations are kinda freaky, but slavery is an all to real evil.

Animations aside, its murder.

MythicEmperor wrote: »

So, I recently made a thread discussing slavery in the Elder Scrolls Online. It is now closed. Why?
"This conversation is not producing constructive conversation and as many find it disturbing and inappropriate we will be closing the thread."
Now, I can understand the reasoning behind the first part. The problem is that the thread had not devolved into anything near petty name calling, so I find this strange. The second part is what truly bothers me. Slavery, as wrong as it is, is an integral part of the Elder Scrolls lore. It is a focal point in Morrowind's main questline. It is the primary reason for tension and distrust in the Pact (creating conflict, and thus plot). It is also a huge part of Dunmer and Ayleid lore and culture. Cultures having evil and cruel elements such as slavery add depth and moral conflict, which makes the world feel more alive.

Before you get on your high horse: Slavery is wrong. So is murder, torture, cannibalism, ritualistic sacrifice, discrimination, racism, thievery, and lying, which are all parts of the Elder Scrolls lore (and yes, even ESO) as well. Slavery is already in ESO (and it is featured in several quests), yet it is not allowed to be discussed on the forums? These are just a few thoughts, feel free to share your own.

actually slavery is not inherently wrong. what is wrong is when a slaveowner forgets the slave is another human being. in fact studies find that somewhere around only 3% of american slaves were mistreated and that the living conditions of majority of slaves actually decreased after the civil war. the only part about american slavery system that you can even argue is wrong and unconstitutional was that the slaves were completely at the owners goodwill for freedom rather then having a debt repayment system. also dont forget many people associate the word slave only in its most extreme form. if you were hired to be a maid for someone you become thier servant, which is a type of slave. you can actually divide slavery into 4 forms: 1. temporary slavery 2. indentured slavery 3. permanent slavery - free will and 4. permanent slavery - forced.

AzuraKin wrote: »

actually slavery is not inherently wrong.

What the snot did I just read?

starkerealm wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

theslynx wrote: »

To be clear: the thread you made argued that we should be able to keep slaves, and was not abstract discussion of slavery in the lore. Arguing that this is censorship or about 'SJW' sensibilities involves a certain amount of obfuscation. Personally, I think closing the thread was unnecessary, but it's not my call, and we agreed to ZOS' stewardship when we agreed to join this forum.

Beyond that, you're conflating what ZOS has decided is or is not permissible within the game space they own with some broader social framework dictating your actions. That would be like going to someone's house and wanting to talk about your sexual fetishes to the point you don't get invited back again. You can feel disgruntled all you like, but it's not because of some pernicious social agenda towards 'coddling' encroaching upon your freedom; it's their house, their rules.

ZOS made decisions about what to depict and what to include as player interaction. There is slavery in the series, but you're (mostly) unable to engage in it. There's a significant difference there; depiction of acts adds to all that grit that gives the world depth, but ZOS felt uncomfortable with crossing the line into allowing players to engage in it directly. You've presented the choice as 'embrace the darkness for depth' or 'sacrifice all depth,' and that's obviously fallacious.

There's some irony here, too. You can't really argue that we're being coddled by sensitive types who cry when they don't get their way, and then toss around epithets like 'children' and 'triggered SJWs' when people disagree and you don't get your way.

While your points make a certain amount of sense, I respectfully disagree. I do not understand how my old post is appalling in any way. The old post only discussed slavery in the form of an assistant who carried your items. It could be implemented as a housecarl to the same effect, it was simply a suggestion. I was not asking for torture or anything else horrific. I was merely suggesting that an assistant would be an easy way to implement slavery (a huge part of Dunmeri culture), whether overtly or implied.

Okay, new plan. Roll a pact Khajiit. Buy the banker. Run around grabbing stuff for him. There, now you have an inoffensive way to roleplay this aspect of Dunmeri culture.

What an interesting idea. How about next time, instead of joining the dark brotherhood and becoming an assassin, you can roll an alt and run into a hostile area to simulate being assassinated? Or, next time you wish to do a thieves guild mission, you can destroy all of your items to pretend you were robbed? It doesn't work. I do not see how brutally murdering innocent civilians and hearing them gurgle and choke on their own blood during a dark brotherhood contract is more "offensive" than owning a slave.

I see where you're getting confused. Instead of joining the Dark Brotherhood, what you need to do is go into Cyrodiil in civilian clothes.

Instead of joining the TG, all you need to do is engage in lots of trading in zone, at slightly unfavorable rates, then get scammed. But, be sure to scream about it in zone at every opportunity.

Or, you know, don't fantasize about being able to buy slaves, because that's all kinds of messed up.

How is it more messed up than anything anyone has pointed out? Lots of things in TES games are messed up. Vampire cattle (from Skyrim) come to mind, which were slaves that served no purpose other than to be fed upon. They were even found being eaten alive on tables in Castle Volkihar. You can eat from them in Skyrim, to make make matters more disturbing. You can also cannibalize, which is far more disgusting than slavery, even in its extremities. Anyways, there are many cruel and unusual things going on in the Elder Scrolls, including slavery already! I am just asking for a means for RPers to enact this in a simple and even basically PG way in the form of an assistant.

MythicEmperor wrote: »

How is it more messed up than anything anyone has pointed out?

You're asking for a sentient being as a pet. That's ****** up.

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

That is probably why slavery is more offensive then murder to some .

Also, murder is, kinda, the name of the game. From the moment we roll up a new character, our default interaction with the world is finding new and interesting people, killing them, and taking their stuff. Slavery on the other hand is not a part of that core loop. We're not beating on people, sticking them in a cage, taking their stuff, and breaking their free will so we can sell them at a profit. That degree of sadism just isn't fun, or palatable, for most players.

Also, whether you agree with it or not, because of idiosyncrasies about how we view the world, slavery is on a different tier of offensiveness than simply killing someone. It's not because there's an easily articulable metric that puts it in a different class, it's simply a function of how our socialization has prepared us to view the world. Complain about it if you want, but slavery is a fate worse than death, and viewed accordingly by a lot of people.

I will say this - @MythicEmperor , you have prompted some of the best, we'll written posts I think I've ever read on any thread on this forum - seriously, I was really surprised at just how well some of the people whom normally just drop down memes, gifs or ten words or less on most threads were able too express themselves...

it's amusing reading really smart people dance with their words very very carefully

starkerealm wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

That is probably why slavery is more offensive then murder to some .

Also, murder is, kinda, the name of the game. From the moment we roll up a new character, our default interaction with the world is finding new and interesting people, killing them, and taking their stuff. Slavery on the other hand is not a part of that core loop. We're not beating on people, sticking them in a cage, taking their stuff, and breaking their free will so we can sell them at a profit. That degree of sadism just isn't fun, or palatable, for most players.

Also, whether you agree with it or not, because of idiosyncrasies about how we view the world, slavery is on a different tier of offensiveness than simply killing someone. It's not because there's an easily articulable metric that puts it in a different class, it's simply a function of how our socialization has prepared us to view the world. Complain about it if you want, but slavery is a fate worse than death, and viewed accordingly by a lot of people.

I'll be clear , I have no want or desire to RolePlay slavery . Nor do I feel like I am missing out on anything . The word makes me sick to my stomach . I have no common ground with anyone that enjoys it . I did not like Conan at all . It was too Pervy a game for me .

Vigarr wrote: »

Aeula wrote: »

Wait what? We're not allowed to discus lore anymore if it's 'disturbing'?

Have the mods read some of the lore? Most of it is pretty messed up.

They watered down Molag Bal, he's supposed to be the "King of ***" not the lord of domination and brutality.
Milk drinkers

Molag Bal is the Daedric Prince whose sphere is the domination and enslavement of mortals. He is known as the God of Schemes,[1] the King of ***,[2] the Harvester of Souls,[3] the Lord of Brutality,[4] and the Prince of Rage.[5] His main desire is to harvest the souls of mortals and to bring them within his sway by spreading seeds of strife and discord in the mortal realms. One legend claims that Molag Bal created the first vampire when he *** a Nedic virgin, who in turn slaughtered a group of nomads.[6] He also made pacts with other mortals and turned them into vampires such as Lord Harkon and his family. Thus it is implied Lord Harkon and his family are the original Volkihar Clan of vampires being directly turned by the Daedric Prince himself.[7] He is a Daedric power of much importance in Morrowind, where he is always the archenemy of Boethiah, the Prince of Plots. Other enemies are Ebonarm, Meridia, and Mephala, and is allied with Azura. His summoning day is Chil'a. In Aldmeris, his name means Fire Stone.

Molag Bal's plane of Oblivion is Coldharbour. The book The Doors of Oblivion says that his plane resembles a copy of Nirn, including the Imperial Palace, but all desecrated and ruined. The ground is sludge, the sky is on fire, and the air is freezing. The Daedroths are typically counted among his servants.

He is the main source of the obstacles to the Dunmer people (and their Chimer predecessors). In the legends, Molag Bal always tries to upset the bloodlines of Houses or otherwise ruin Dunmeri 'purity'. He is also the god of *** and is said to be the parent (along with Vivec) of a population of mutant degenerates living in the Molag Amur region of Morrowind.[8] It is possible he assisted Jagar Tharn in his temporary procurement of the Imperial throne. He was also responsible for the destruction of the Bosmeri town of Gilverdale at the end of the First Era (he was summoned by Senchal King Dro'Zel). In Morrowind, he is seen as one of the four corners of the House of Troubles.

Molag Bal has a son, Ozzozachar, a Daedric Titan. He also has a daughter named Molag Grunda, a Winged Twilight who was in love with the lowly Frost Atronach Nomeg Gwai. Molag Bal did not approve of the relationship and had them both banished to Oblivion, so they could be punished for eternity.

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Slavery, as wrong as it is, is an integral part of the Elder Scrolls lore.

nnnno, it isn't

it's just there

it's a thing that happens in the world sometimes, it's not some important event that changes the face of tamriel or anything. it's just a part of one ingame race's culture

granted most of this fanbase are complete and utter insane fanatics about that race so i imagine it's easy to inflate the importance of that race and anything related to it, but you know

also it isn't the primary reason for the Pact's mistrust, there's a lot more going on there than the precious right to force a man to work against his will with no pay

just what is it with you people and slavery good lord this is getting really creepy

Vigarr wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Vigarr wrote: »

Aeula wrote: »

Wait what? We're not allowed to discus lore anymore if it's 'disturbing'?

Have the mods read some of the lore? Most of it is pretty messed up.

They watered down Molag Bal, he's supposed to be the "King of ***" not the lord of domination and brutality.
Milk drinkers

Haha I'm not the king or endorsing it, just saying something towards the censorship mentioned...everythings too tame and toned down. Do I want *** and slaves in game? No but they shouldn't be completely ignored when it's in the lore.

I understand lol .