Is it too late for a medium armor buff?

Ocelot9x · January 2017

I know i'll get a lot of hate out of this post but is there any hope for our beloved medium? At the moment it's just underperforming (pvp wise) and the nerf to heavy doesnt make it more attractive.

GreenSoup2HoT · January 2017

How is it underperforming?
What would you change to make it better?

I personally think the reason why Medium is not so attractive to use is because we cannot utilize are stamina regen to its fullest due to it being restricted while sprinting. This change makes it very hard for Medium users to sprint around and sustain.

There are 2 things that would improve the use of Medium without actually changing anything. 1: Remove the restriction of sprint regen. 2: Make it so you need to wear 5 pieces of a specific armor type to utilize the armor skill-line ability.

silky_soft · January 2017

We don't really need much to compete with heavy. Actual base regen instead of a % would be better. We got racials and cp for that.

Yea I don't understand that one either. Should be a 5p or 7p thing to remove sprint cost with medium. Same with getting a passive movement speed buff for 5p or 7p, not just while sprinting but just base speed.

Dev · January 2017

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

2: Make it so you need to wear 5 pieces of a specific armor type to utilize the armor skill-line ability.

So the way to make it useful is to nerf everyone who uses evasion/morphs without 5pc?

The reason that Med armor is not used in pvp is the same as why light isnt used: Heavy is the meta, and pvp means meta or die.

Derra · January 2017

I personally think allowing to regenerate while sprinting would be broken.
It was broken when drinks would not be affected by the regen penalty with imperial city release.

I think it would be a good thing to require 5p of said armor type to use the active skill of an armor.

To go on with this i think medium and light armor are just tailored too well to suit certain classes and playstyles.
Or certain classes are tailored too well to use a certain armortype. Say it how you want.

I don´t think medium is underperforming on stamblades. They can make medium armor work out great.
That´s the same as light armor on sorcs. Sorcs in light armor perform fine (and i think light armor is even worse compared to medium in terms of usability on other classes).
It´s therefor hard to buff the armor type without adressing the synergies certain classes have with that armor type.

It´s tough to even start on this problem without revamping a whole lot about classskills and armor and only buffing armor would (in my opinion) create horrible imbalances.

Edit:
Sorc is good in light bc they´re relatively mobile and can stack 3 shields. Stop that with making hardened and harness not stack anymore. Then go about light armor.

NB is good in medium because - well they have everything they need as classskills and revolve around quick cc burst combos.
Best stam gapcloser - check
Best anytime skill - check
Best supplementing magica skills (cloak, fear, shade synergising well with mediums evasive playstyle) - check
I have no idea how to adress medium armor without improving medium nbs greatly (and they´re doing fine imo).

Strider_Roshin · January 2017

The main defense for medium armor is dodge rolling; which ZOS has made borderline useless in this game. If wanna kill a medium armor wearer, just use soul assault. You can be brain dead, and be successful with it.

Here are my suggestions:

1. Make dodge rolling viable again
2. Make sprinting less punishing for medium armor wearers

Blackfyre20 · January 2017

It doesn't make sense that one medium armor passive should increase stam regen and another increases sprinting speed. While one passive is being used, it inactivates the other passive. Either remove sprint stopping stam regen, change the last passive to include that when wearing 5 medium pieces sprint no longer stops stam regen, or alter the last passive so that it increases all movement speed and not just sprint speed. The two passives in the same armor tree should not be working against each other.

Also in favor of requiring 5 pieces of an armor type in order to use that armor ability.

SnubbS · January 2017

5pc Medium should grant around 500~ extra crit resist. There are two things which give Heavy an advantage over medium. First is the inherent MagRegen -- you're not going to get any buffs to medium that help on that front. The second thing is Tankiness -- it doesn't make sense to give medium extra armor, but in my opinion it does make sense that they would gain extra resistance to critical hits.

Derra · January 2017

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

The main defense for medium armor is dodge rolling; which ZOS has made borderline useless in this game. If wanna kill a medium armor wearer, just use soul assault. You can be brain dead, and be successful with it.

If that medium armor wearer is a NB (which make up 80% of medium armor users) they can simply cloak it off.

Use rally => block one tick of dmg => cloak. This results in 60% of soulassaults dmg being canceled instantly.

GreenSoup2HoT · January 2017

Dev wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

2: Make it so you need to wear 5 pieces of a specific armor type to utilize the armor skill-line ability.

So the way to make it useful is to nerf everyone who uses evasion/morphs without 5pc?

The reason that Med armor is not used in pvp is the same as why light isnt used: Heavy is the meta, and pvp means meta or die.

Exactly why taking away Evasion from Heavy would bring Heavy more into line with Light/Medium. This would only effect stamina heavy users though.

The reason why Medium in my opinion is trash is because your regen is wasted while sprinting. Heavy can still restore some resources blocking/sprinting due to constitution. Actually maybe its constitution that needs the nerf and only works while not blocking or sprinting.

Im just throwing out ideas.

pieratsos · January 2017

Dev wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

2: Make it so you need to wear 5 pieces of a specific armor type to utilize the armor skill-line ability.

So the way to make it useful is to nerf everyone who uses evasion/morphs without 5pc?

The reason that Med armor is not used in pvp is the same as why light isnt used: Heavy is the meta, and pvp means meta or die.

The reason heavy is the meta is because they can get all the good stuff from light armor and medium armor while also having the survivability of heavy. So yes evasion should be restricted to medium armor builds and shields should be restricted to light armor builds. Thats how the 3 armor skill lines are designed and thats how it should work.

Strider_Roshin · January 2017

Derra wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

The main defense for medium armor is dodge rolling; which ZOS has made borderline useless in this game. If wanna kill a medium armor wearer, just use soul assault. You can be brain dead, and be successful with it.

If that medium armor wearer is a NB (which make up 80% of medium armor users) they can simply cloak it off.

Use rally => block one tick of dmg => cloak. This results in 60% of soulassaults dmg being canceled instantly.

Cloak is a terrible, terrible.... That move has been dead to me ever since they butchered it in the thieves guild dlc. Nonetheless, this is about medium armor; not stamblades. How can we make medium armor viable enough that I stam DK can rock it competitively?

Yuke · January 2017

I agree with Derra on this one.

How do you want to buff medium armor without introducing god status for stamblades?

Aedaryl · January 2017

For medium :

If shuffle was only available with 5 medium armor pièces, it would be a better.

Yes, reduce sprint penality, but not remove it !

For light armor

They need to add first a mechanic that kill 3 shield sorcs, which is so stupid...

I think a major and minor system should be simple and work.

One major shield and one minor shield can stack.

Make harness and hardened ward, and all other shields in game as major shield, just put the healling ward as minor shield.

Also remove regen from harness, it's brain *** really

Then, add a passive at 5 pieces of light armor that increase size of major shield by 20 or 30 %, so NB magicka can be viable with dampen and sorc have one shield more powerfull, but still less than actual harness + hardened ward.

Put regen and cost reduction in one passive like medium then remove the spell resistance passif and make a 5 pièces passive which increase max magicka by 5 - 10% (still less effective than spell damage so it's not competitive with medium 12% wpn damage)

For Heavy armor

]
Finally, add a penality to constitution passive, like reduce damage done by 15% because yes, heavy armor shoudn' t put that awesome damage close to medium armor !

Then it's balanced.

OrphanHelgen · January 2017

Ocelot9x wrote: »

I know i'll get a lot of hate out of this post but is there any hope for our beloved medium? At the moment it's just underperforming (pvp wise) PVE WISE and the nerf to heavy doesnt make it more attractive.

I want crit dmg and penetration passive !

buff trap back again

poison whip

flames of swaglivion AOE

Ragnaroek93 · January 2017

I'm not 100% sure about medium armor yet. Heavy armor will definitely suffer from all these (deserved) nerfs, while medium armor suffers less. After testing a bit on PTS I think that heavy armor might be fine actually, the only issue I see is that Redguard passives works a bit too good on heavy armor (and sadly most heavy armor people are Redguards nowadays). Exclude this race and I think heavy armor is balanced

The other issue of medium armor is that medium armor builds are crit based and crit doesn't work well against shields. Would like to see shields reworked, I don't mind some buffs to shields but please don't let such a core ability which every sorc and probably every light armor build uses counter crit.

Yuke wrote: »

I agree with Derra on this one.

How do you want to buff medium armor without introducing god status for stamblades?

What god status? Heavy armor nightblade is stronger than medium armor nightblade (in my opinion actually). Not saying medium armor needs to be buffed, but with heavy armor they should be already god mode according to that argument (I would even agree that they are too strong in heavy armor, but not stronger or weaker than other heavy armor builds ^^).

Derra wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

The main defense for medium armor is dodge rolling; which ZOS has made borderline useless in this game. If wanna kill a medium armor wearer, just use soul assault. You can be brain dead, and be successful with it.

If that medium armor wearer is a NB (which make up 80% of medium armor users) they can simply cloak it off.

Use rally => block one tick of dmg => cloak. This results in 60% of soulassaults dmg being canceled instantly.

Does this work if the opponent popped a detect pot? If not, Soul Strike is pretty much a free win. Also keep in mind that not everybody in medium armor is a nightblade. Soul Strike is just a bad designed skill (almost on the same stupidity level as shieldbreaker) in my opinion.

Lexxypwns · January 2017

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

I know i'll get a lot of hate out of this post but is there any hope for our beloved medium? At the moment it's just underperforming (pvp wise) PVE WISE and the nerf to heavy doesnt make it more attractive.

I want crit dmg and penetration passive !

buff trap back again

poison whip

flames of swaglivion AOE

There's no way you're gonna tell me that mDK needs to be nerfed so that stam DK can get a whip morph. Stam DK is top tier in pvp anyway, if you let them have a hard hitting spammable they can use with any weapon then they're too strong. Are you willing to give mDK unstable flame back so that they don't get screwed losing a viable morph of whip?

pieratsos · January 2017

Aedaryl wrote: »

For medium :

If shuffle was only available with 5 medium armor pièces, it would be a better.

Yes, reduce sprint penality, but not remove it !
For light armor

They need to add first a mechanic that kill 3 shield sorcs, which is so stupid...

I think a major and minor system should be simple and work.

One major shield and one minor shield can stack.

Make harness and hardened ward, and all other shields in game as major shield, just put the healling ward as minor shield.

Also remove regen from harness, it's brain *** really

Then, add a passive at 5 pieces of light armor that increase size of major shield by 20 or 30 %, so NB magicka can be viable with dampen and sorc have one shield more powerfull, but still less than actual harness + hardened ward.

Put regen and cost reduction in one passive like medium then remove the spell resistance passif and make a 5 pièces passive which increase max magicka by 5 - 10% (still less effective than spell damage so it's not competitive with medium 12% wpn damage)
For Heavy armor

]
Finally, add a penality to constitution passive, like reduce damage done by 15% because yes, heavy armor shoudn' t put that awesome damage close to medium armor !

Then it's balanced.

The point isnt to butcher heavy armor and make it useless again. They said that they want heavy armor to work better when u are outnumbered. So just change constitution to work better when u are heavily outnumbered but not that good in 1v1 situations. Something like 8% chance on getting hit to restore x magicka and stamina with y seconds cooldown

Aedaryl · January 2017

pieratsos wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

For medium :

If shuffle was only available with 5 medium armor pièces, it would be a better.

Yes, reduce sprint penality, but not remove it !
For light armor

They need to add first a mechanic that kill 3 shield sorcs, which is so stupid...

I think a major and minor system should be simple and work.

One major shield and one minor shield can stack.

Make harness and hardened ward, and all other shields in game as major shield, just put the healling ward as minor shield.

Also remove regen from harness, it's brain *** really

Then, add a passive at 5 pieces of light armor that increase size of major shield by 20 or 30 %, so NB magicka can be viable with dampen and sorc have one shield more powerfull, but still less than actual harness + hardened ward.

Put regen and cost reduction in one passive like medium then remove the spell resistance passif and make a 5 pièces passive which increase max magicka by 5 - 10% (still less effective than spell damage so it's not competitive with medium 12% wpn damage)
For Heavy armor

]
Finally, add a penality to constitution passive, like reduce damage done by 15% because yes, heavy armor shoudn' t put that awesome damage close to medium armor !

Then it's balanced.

The point isnt to butcher heavy armor and make it useless again. They said that they want heavy armor to work better when u are outnumbered. So just change constitution to work better when u are heavily outnumbered but not that good in 1v1 situations. Something like 8% chance on getting hit to restore x magicka and stamina with y seconds cooldown

Even a better idea true !

SodanTok · January 2017

Medium armor user is supposed to be that very mobile character that is hard to catch having great damage but weak defense once he is caught. Which nowadays feels like only stamblade with 3proc sets can really accomplish. Other classes just dont get much out of it.

The way spriting works, if you cant spring behind rock and cloak away (because you are not NB), you probably arent going to run away (if they dont give up).

They way dodging works, you can either dodge like crazy and be stupidly unhittable for anyone having only direct attacks, or stand and wait for death, because dodge does nothing versus all the aoe attacks.

The way blocking works, you do it only if the two things above cant be done and usually it delays death by 2s.

So why would you play medium armor without being NB

//EDIT: Lets not forget about gap closer snares, or how difference between shuffle on heavy vs medium is only 2.49999s of snare immunity.

Ocelot9x · January 2017

Thanks everyone for your reply!
What makes me sad about medium armor is that there's no point using it.
To make dodge roll your main defense you should stack at least 2000 stamina recovery and that means less damage so you will have less damage than heavy or light (with light you can use lich for free recovery and focus on damage) with no other reliable sources of mitigation (like block/shields). And that could be ok 5 or 6 months ago when people were running julianos/hundings/kagrenac with few monster sets and no other option besides medium or light.
Now we have so much sets that can provide defense while doing damage that medium armor damage it's just not enought. And with medium struggling like that they decided to makes skills undodgiable,ruining the only (not worth to use) mitigation mechanism of medium.
What im looking for is some sort of buff to medium armor damage,like some penetration or crit damage.Or maybe some buff to 2handed,as it stant it makes me so sad to see my uppercut hit for like 5k non crit. The first change can make medium armor pve dps overpowered but no one use stamina in vet trials so there's no problem

Sugaroverdose · January 2017

Aedaryl wrote: »

For Heavy armor

]
Finally, add a penality to constitution passive, like reduce damage done by 15% because yes, heavy armor shoudn' t put that awesome damage close to medium armor !

Then it's balanced.

"Make redguard stamsorc in heavy the only meta"

technohic · January 2017

I don't think medium is that bad. I actually thing light is worse due to it not giving spell damage while heavy does? If you are going to compare it to heavy; that is fine, but what really needs to happen is they need to

1. Remove wrath damage boosts to heavy outright; not just make it slower to build up. Heavy would be perfectly fine being tanky and there is no reason it should have damage buffs. Regen, I get; as you need the resources to maintain tankiness in this game. Medium and light should have a clear edge on raw damage to fit into a trinity of armors of 1 for magicka DPS, 1 for stamina DPS, and 1 for tankiness

2. Then they need to do something about proc sets who's damage does not require you to work damage into your build. I would say they need to do the opposite of what they are doing now in not allowing them to crit. They should allow the procs to crit AND scale off of stats but then reduce their base damage/heal stat substantially. Make it to where you have to put at least a little bit into the damage and I would make them require a resource cost.

Sugaroverdose · January 2017

technohic wrote: »

I don't think medium is that bad. I actually thing light is worse due to it not giving spell damage while heavy does? If you are going to compare it to heavy; that is fine, but what really needs to happen is they need to

1. Remove wrath damage boosts to heavy outright; not just make it slower to build up. Heavy would be perfectly fine being tanky and there is no reason it should have damage buffs. Regen, I get; as you need the resources to maintain tankiness in this game. Medium and light should have a clear edge on raw damage to fit into a trinity of armors of 1 for magicka DPS, 1 for stamina DPS, and 1 for tankiness

2. Then they need to do something about proc sets who's damage does not require you to work damage into your build. I would say they need to do the opposite of what they are doing now in not allowing them to crit. They should allow the procs to crit AND scale off of stats but then reduce their base damage/heal stat substantially. Make it to where you have to put at least a little bit into the damage and I would make them require a resource cost.

It maybe a good idea, but if you'll watch at those set numbers like 12k for gold Selene without any CP(it's f ridiculous) i don't believe that they actually make numbers much lesser, but will open a way to make zero sustain oneprockill builds.

Derra · January 2017

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Does this work if the opponent popped a detect pot? If not, Soul Strike is pretty much a free win. Also keep in mind that not everybody in medium armor is a nightblade. Soul Strike is just a bad designed skill (almost on the same stupidity level as shieldbreaker) in my opinion.

Yeah it works against detect potions aswell.

That´s the problem i´ve tried to adress in my first post in this topic though. You can´t buff light armor because sorcs would be too good (even though that could be fixed by making fecking hardened not stack with harness).
You can´t buff medium because that would make stamblades too good. I´m playing with a great stamblade every day and boy does he make medium armor work.

Strider_Roshin · January 2017

Derra wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Does this work if the opponent popped a detect pot? If not, Soul Strike is pretty much a free win. Also keep in mind that not everybody in medium armor is a nightblade. Soul Strike is just a bad designed skill (almost on the same stupidity level as shieldbreaker) in my opinion.

Yeah it works against detect potions aswell.

That´s the problem i´ve tried to adress in my first post in this topic though. You can´t buff light armor because sorcs would be too good (even though that could be fixed by making fecking hardened not stack with harness).
You can´t buff medium because that would make stamblades too good. I´m playing with a great stamblade every day and boy does he make medium armor work.

There are people that can make the 2H ultimate work. Doesn't mean it's not trash.

Qbiken · January 2017

All these suggestions about that you need 5 piece to use armorability would be the end for Tava-tanks. Stupid idea that doesn´t solve anything

Nefaras · January 2017

Qbiken wrote: »

All these suggestions about that you need 5 piece to use armorability would be the end for Tava-tanks. Stupid idea that doesn´t solve anything

This, all this crying is just from a pvp point of view , nerf heavy nerf heavy ......is the goal that tanks in pve should also wear medium armor ? xD

The best thing is to give diversity in abilities when pvp is active or not ....

"Evasion:
Shroud yourself in mist to gain Major Evasion, which increases your dodge chance by 20% for 20 seconds. The effect of this ability is in pvp reduced for each part of medium armor missing by 5%."

So if you have only 2 pieces, you can use this skill but only with , 5% , 3 pieces you get 10% , 4 15% and 5 the full 20%
Thats balance ...and not the *** you are calling for "nerf heavy, buff this ,....pls i want my *** being op" And if zos would finally do this kind of method with all abilities you can play in a game close to real balance. But balance patches are not give any money to them, so you need to deal with it that you will see like 1000 more shop mounts and such thing before anything major happen.

WillhelmBlack · January 2017

There should be no penalty to dodge roll when wearing 5 or more pieces of medium.

@ZOS_RichLambert make it happen. Please save us from this heavy armour META, you're the only man who can!

Also, each piece of light armour should increase the duration of your damage shields.

Qbiken · January 2017

Nefaras wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

All these suggestions about that you need 5 piece to use armorability would be the end for Tava-tanks. Stupid idea that doesn´t solve anything

This, all this crying is just from a pvp point of view , nerf heavy nerf heavy ......is the goal that tanks in pve should also wear medium armor ? xD

The best thing is to give diversity in abilities when pvp is active or not ....

"Evasion:
Shroud yourself in mist to gain Major Evasion, which increases your dodge chance by 20% for 20 seconds. The effect of this ability is in pvp reduced for each part of medium armor missing by 5%."

So if you have only 2 pieces, you can use this skill but only with , 5% , 3 pieces you get 10% , 4 15% and 5 the full 20%
Thats balance ...and not the *** you are calling for "nerf heavy, buff this ,....pls i want my *** being op" And if zos would finally do this kind of method with all abilities you can play in a game close to real balance. But balance patches are not give any money to them, so you need to deal with it that you will see like 1000 more shop mounts and such thing before anything major happen.

I like the suggestion. The problem with shuffle/elude however is that when the dodge procs it creates a small window where it dodges all attack, instead of calculating dodgechance for each individuall instance. So even if dodgemechanic was nerfed the main-problem still persist.

Nefaras · January 2017

Qbiken wrote: »

Nefaras wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

All these suggestions about that you need 5 piece to use armorability would be the end for Tava-tanks. Stupid idea that doesn´t solve anything

This, all this crying is just from a pvp point of view , nerf heavy nerf heavy ......is the goal that tanks in pve should also wear medium armor ? xD

The best thing is to give diversity in abilities when pvp is active or not ....

"Evasion:
Shroud yourself in mist to gain Major Evasion, which increases your dodge chance by 20% for 20 seconds. The effect of this ability is in pvp reduced for each part of medium armor missing by 5%."

So if you have only 2 pieces, you can use this skill but only with , 5% , 3 pieces you get 10% , 4 15% and 5 the full 20%
Thats balance ...and not the *** you are calling for "nerf heavy, buff this ,....pls i want my *** being op" And if zos would finally do this kind of method with all abilities you can play in a game close to real balance. But balance patches are not give any money to them, so you need to deal with it that you will see like 1000 more shop mounts and such thing before anything major happen.

I like the suggestion. The problem with shuffle/elude however is that when the dodge procs it creates a small window where it dodges all attack, instead of calculating dodgechance for each individuall instance. So even if dodgemechanic was nerfed the main-problem still persist.

Yeah that needs to happen, the % chance should be calculated for every ability that hits you , if a dot ist already on you ..you cant evade the dot ticks and so on.