rustic_potato wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

I have been a part of a raiding guild that started out as a casual guild doing normal trials to one that is competing for vMoL scores and working on vMoL HM.. Every time we made a shift to be more progressive, we kicked out 60% of our members because they didn't meet new requirements.. We tried helping them to improve but they were satisfied where they were. We did lose a lot of members but we also gained a lot of better raiders with these shifts.. So a guild is ultimately going to go in the direction the leaders want it to progress.. If you can adapt you stay else you get kicked out..

This contract you talk about doesn't exist.. It can be changed on a one side basis, only the guild leader's opinions matter.. I spend close to 15 hours a week working on the guild and I don't have to listen to the opinion of someone who joins me in an hour long raid once a month.. On the other hand if it is someone who spends enough time with me on the progress of my guild their opinion is invaluable..

Based on the above post I categorize you as a guild leader / guild who/which uses its members for its own purposes.
My opinion is that a guild should be a tool and a service for its members - members should use the guild, not the other way around.
And kicking members without even thinking of all the human relationships they might have woven among each other is something I do not agree with. Your guild definitely isn't for me.

I agree. I'm just an officer in my guild. Our GM's main goal when creating the guild was to use the guild to make us better players. People who share our ideals usually end up staying. Else they leave or end up getting kicked. It is just the nature of it.

Castagere wrote: »

jarrod777 wrote: »

I will never understand why people put up with guild leaders like this.

Stop being sheep and just leave. They cannot be azzholes unless you let them.

I want to join a guild so badly but guilds today are not what they used to be. Its all about mid/maxing dps numbers. Guilds used to be fun and about making friends for the game you love. The last game i played guild turned into nothing but fights over raid spots and most people just quit. I like the direction ESO is going and want to make friends here but its just not easy anymore because of these type of players that i can't stand to be around. Elitism is killing just about every mmo on the market now. I come from old school mmo day's. My first being Anarchy Online beta testing. I used to know around 20 -30 people that were into mmo's. Today only 3 of us still play but the others all quit because they can't stand the people that play anymore.

magnusthorek wrote: »

TL;DR

Elitism is a cancerous evil and caused my removal of an endgame Guild. Now move a long

I've been finally kicked of the end-game guild I was member for almost one year because because of technical details: I didn't manage to get a score against a dungeon boss that helps nothing against the real deal (trial bosses).

The "administration" always announced that Magicka players should achieve at least 30k as DPS while Stamina, 38k. When they first "threatened" purging the guild towards their elitism numbers I was really bad, barely reaching 18k.

Then I improved A LOT getting a DPS mark floating from 32k and up to 41k (once) against trial bosses on veteran difficult (32k was an HM run with a training group). Heck... even the first and only time I did vMoL I've got 35k, even not knowing the slightly different mechanics, learning them just-in-time.

With those results I was happy!

But then came the unnecessary test against an unreasonable and very situational dungeon boss and, although those marks were publicly announced, through mass mails, secretly, behind the scenes, the real goal was 35k for Magicka players. And this unbuffed!

I was reluctant on doing a DPS test under such circumstances. It didn't make sense! I've sent several DPS parses of important bosses (Warrior, Mage, in between mini-bosses...) and all of them were rejected because "they had adds numbers" even though there were no influence of them on data (only boss name in the reports). But I did my part. i gave up and did the "test" and, when I finally got a DPS Test group after spent THE WHOLE WEEK asking (since we had a deadline tomorrow, Sunday), I didn't manage to get the numbers.

I could blame the group that came with me during the "test" but they're nice fellows and don't deserve that. Did they do a good job on buffs? Can't say, but my latency, although it shows a moderately low number everyday, is a liar and was the real villain to blame. Every action takes like 3 seconds to happen, today was even worse and not only with me. I 'learned to lag" in the course of months of course but, for example, I can't be part of this cancerous community that cancel animations without suffer a double bar swap.

Now the [Snip] in the fan part!

1) Earlier today the "administration" whispered me "intimidating" I had until tomorrow to present my results.

This is an international game and people live under different timezones, so much that my Aussie friends were celebrating new year before me. With this in mind, for example, to me, Sunday is tomorrow and I've been kicked 45 minutes ago, which still Saturday.

Theoretically I could change gears and try again tomorrow, but I didn't have the chance.

2) Because of my timezone and the impossibility of playing at night (for most of you) because the server gets too crowded (I've tested it once) I often miss A LOT of opportunities. The only time I managed to go vMoL I had to wake up VERY early to get the "end of dawn" of the guild.

3) During afternoon (here) which is when I usually play, I literally have to beg for pledges or trials for weekly and people don't even answer. I understand if people don't want to do or can't in that moment but why the silence?

4) A lot of players in this guild hated me. Even people that used to be friendly to me got so cocky because were considered member of a "core" group started to treat me bad. Some proofs:

- A couple weeks ago we were doing vHRC for weekly I think. I was in a group and when we finished the crown said something like "if you want to go again drop group, change toons and X up in guild". I did and never got the invitation back for a group I WAS ALREADY IN. they quickly filled the DPS role with someone else and didn't have even the decency to explain.

Another case, more recent. -

- Today morning a lot of good players online and my first guild message in chat was for a vMoL group for the weekly. everyone silent (again) but then 30 minutes later (I was more or less monitoring the Guild roster) they formed a group in secret (probably through whispers or TS) and did the weekly.

I don't know you but to me, in my country, this characterizes as being personal, but they were too coward to speak to me directly.

5) A long time ago a player joined a vAA group formed by someone else AFTER me. He took the lead and kicked me without reason. I asked why and he threw on my face I was a bad player because he happened to be in the same run I was when learning vAA, that back when the trials was rescaled in which I made mistakes (who don't while learning?). He had balls to do that, I admit, but I argued with him, explained I was learning and got back in the group. and to shut him up I did the whole place flawlessly.

Isn't this personal? I tried to contact the "public relations" of guild, giving my feedback and to make sure it would be read I asked a favor in the message. This favor never happened...

Anyway...

THE GUILD ASKED TOO MUCH AND PROVIDED TOO LITTLE

If you run or is member of a guild that does veteran trials at different periods of time (something around -5 hours from the time of this topic) and couldn't take the newest homeless DPS of Tamriel without such rudeness and cockiness, please let me know.

[Edited for bypassing the filter]

MidknightWolf wrote: »

magnusthorek wrote: »

TL;DR

Elitism is a cancerous evil and caused my removal of an endgame Guild. Now move a long

I've been finally kicked of the end-game guild I was member for almost one year because because of technical details: I didn't manage to get a score against a dungeon boss that helps nothing against the real deal (trial bosses).

The "administration" always announced that Magicka players should achieve at least 30k as DPS while Stamina, 38k. When they first "threatened" purging the guild towards their elitism numbers I was really bad, barely reaching 18k.

Then I improved A LOT getting a DPS mark floating from 32k and up to 41k (once) against trial bosses on veteran difficult (32k was an HM run with a training group). Heck... even the first and only time I did vMoL I've got 35k, even not knowing the slightly different mechanics, learning them just-in-time.

With those results I was happy!

But then came the unnecessary test against an unreasonable and very situational dungeon boss and, although those marks were publicly announced, through mass mails, secretly, behind the scenes, the real goal was 35k for Magicka players. And this unbuffed!

I was reluctant on doing a DPS test under such circumstances. It didn't make sense! I've sent several DPS parses of important bosses (Warrior, Mage, in between mini-bosses...) and all of them were rejected because "they had adds numbers" even though there were no influence of them on data (only boss name in the reports). But I did my part. i gave up and did the "test" and, when I finally got a DPS Test group after spent THE WHOLE WEEK asking (since we had a deadline tomorrow, Sunday), I didn't manage to get the numbers.

I could blame the group that came with me during the "test" but they're nice fellows and don't deserve that. Did they do a good job on buffs? Can't say, but my latency, although it shows a moderately low number everyday, is a liar and was the real villain to blame. Every action takes like 3 seconds to happen, today was even worse and not only with me. I 'learned to lag" in the course of months of course but, for example, I can't be part of this cancerous community that cancel animations without suffer a double bar swap.

Now the [Snip] in the fan part!

1) Earlier today the "administration" whispered me "intimidating" I had until tomorrow to present my results.

This is an international game and people live under different timezones, so much that my Aussie friends were celebrating new year before me. With this in mind, for example, to me, Sunday is tomorrow and I've been kicked 45 minutes ago, which still Saturday.

Theoretically I could change gears and try again tomorrow, but I didn't have the chance.

2) Because of my timezone and the impossibility of playing at night (for most of you) because the server gets too crowded (I've tested it once) I often miss A LOT of opportunities. The only time I managed to go vMoL I had to wake up VERY early to get the "end of dawn" of the guild.

3) During afternoon (here) which is when I usually play, I literally have to beg for pledges or trials for weekly and people don't even answer. I understand if people don't want to do or can't in that moment but why the silence?

4) A lot of players in this guild hated me. Even people that used to be friendly to me got so cocky because were considered member of a "core" group started to treat me bad. Some proofs:

- A couple weeks ago we were doing vHRC for weekly I think. I was in a group and when we finished the crown said something like "if you want to go again drop group, change toons and X up in guild". I did and never got the invitation back for a group I WAS ALREADY IN. they quickly filled the DPS role with someone else and didn't have even the decency to explain.

Another case, more recent. -

- Today morning a lot of good players online and my first guild message in chat was for a vMoL group for the weekly. everyone silent (again) but then 30 minutes later (I was more or less monitoring the Guild roster) they formed a group in secret (probably through whispers or TS) and did the weekly.

I don't know you but to me, in my country, this characterizes as being personal, but they were too coward to speak to me directly.

5) A long time ago a player joined a vAA group formed by someone else AFTER me. He took the lead and kicked me without reason. I asked why and he threw on my face I was a bad player because he happened to be in the same run I was when learning vAA, that back when the trials was rescaled in which I made mistakes (who don't while learning?). He had balls to do that, I admit, but I argued with him, explained I was learning and got back in the group. and to shut him up I did the whole place flawlessly.

Isn't this personal? I tried to contact the "public relations" of guild, giving my feedback and to make sure it would be read I asked a favor in the message. This favor never happened...

Anyway...

THE GUILD ASKED TOO MUCH AND PROVIDED TOO LITTLE

If you run or is member of a guild that does veteran trials at different periods of time (something around -5 hours from the time of this topic) and couldn't take the newest homeless DPS of Tamriel without such rudeness and cockiness, please let me know.

[Edited for bypassing the filter]

ESO is such a casual and easy to play MMO. There is no need for elitism anywhere in this simple game.

autumnsongbird wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Come back to me after one person has been wiping your group in a trial for 5+ hours

One person wiping in your trials for 5+ hours is not the problem. If any trial is taking you 5+ hours, then you should stop bothering and call it a full on fail cuz you got way more problems than that 1 person. A competent group would not be crippled by this. Even in vet unless it is a tank that cannot hold aggro or follow the mechanics or you know, survive.

pattyLtd wrote: »

Now understand the meaning of a progression guild after Nifty explained it to me on page 2 i do understand both sides a bit.

i still think its a bit harsh towards members that have been in the guild for years and judging his post truelly loved being part of it. Nobody likes to be rejected amd for those comparing it with soccer teams and all, get real. Professional atletes get paid!

Nobody gets kicked from a sport team because they do t hit benchmarks only works that way for professionals amd that what that is you all think your some kind of pro's in a VIDEOGAME!

CaineCarver wrote: »

This whole thread and all the responses simply shed light on the fact that unlike the traditional MMOs of the past ESO is trying to mainstream all of the content by encouraging and enabling the average casual gamers to attempt and do endgame content. For the most part the performance and skills of casual gamers allow them to do most of the content. However there are some aspects and content of the game that still require better than casual play to complete on a successful basis.

Some of the Veteran pledges, trials and Maelstrom Arena require better than casual play to complete and certainly to be on the leaderboards requires above average performance. The more competitive and tradition MMO endgame players tend to put more importance on the successful completion of this content at the highest level. Casual players on the other hand are more likely to accept lesser performance on the leaderboards and place less importance on the content they have trouble completing.

This new approach to MMO endgame is creating tension between casual and more traditional gamers. On the extreme ends of the spectrum we have players that have poor gaming skill and the players with incredible gaming skills. While many of us find our self somewhere in between , trying to group together in one big hodgepodge results in the mess we see here on the boards. The insults, the arguing and the hate that seems to be growing in the community. And unfortunately as things are now its only going to get worse.

I feel the solutions have to come from ZOS since the idea and dream of this new style of MMO is their creation. The first step is they must realize there is a real problem and that only they can find away to help these two groups of player coexists and be happy. Once they openly acknowledge the problem then they can start trying to find steps to an acceptable system that works for all the players.

To that end I would like to point out two areas that I think need some work to help ease the pain. First , as the problem of the OP directed us too, They need to look at the tools and information available to players concerning guilds in the game. Guilds struggle to provide information to potential players as well as members because there is so few tools and ways to share information. There is no way to search the guilds , no way to look up leaders, no way to even see the guilds a player is part of unless they have on a tabard. Even sending ingame mail to guild members is a chore (That can even get you in trouble for spamming the server). We simply need better guild tools to know what a guild expects and that members are on the same page when they join. Giving us 5 guilds is part of the solution needed to make the trade system work but its made finding and being part of a traditional guild much harder with the few tools we have.

A second area of high contention and a constant source of strife between the two player types is the group finder. Right now players from both camps get tossed together and its not always pretty or polite. Both camps need to use the tool (Maybe because its hard to find like minded guilds?) and both groups tend to think the others should find a group some other way and leave the group finder to their play style. The issue is further complicated by individuals "gaming" the finder to get in groups faster by false representation. And players looking at CP level to try and weed out less skilled players. I am not sure how to fix this but I am sure the creative minds can.

Anyway let's stop calling each other names and instead encourage ZOS to find solutions to the aches of this new MMO play style. Both groups love ESO and bring a lot to the community we just need the tools to live together in harmony (laughs at self singing ebony and ivory).

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

This thread is far too entertaining to be over