Block cost reduction needs to be a value to increase the basement cost

silky_soft · January 2017

I hope these next patch notes include balancing in for perma blocking. We saw a while back they removed regen from block, that was a good start. Then you buffed the *** out of heavy and gave a new blocking trait. Boom, perma blockers reborn and pretty much rendering that regen change useless.

If you don't let battlespirit pike the perma blockers. It's time reduction moved away from % and used a solid value just like penetration. Even like armor, be capped at 50%.

So just some thing that can reduce block cost to lower then Constitutions return.

Sturdy: 32%
CP: 25%
Fortress: 36%
V16 Gold Shielding Enchant: 203/enchant

PvE could even l2p with offtanks, but that's too hard for casuals and dps racers so leave them alone. Just mess with battlespirit, not everyone has fear to glitch people out.

aidenmoore · January 2017

Curious as to why you want to nerf a role of a tank in PVP so much. Removing regen while blocking is not a good start, that was a stupid unnecessary nerf but people adapt to it.

I failed to see why these "permablockers" are an issue when most of them do almost no damage to anyone other than being a nuisance.

It irks me that people wants to narrow down PVP options to either DPS or BoL spammer. How about no, thank you?

usmcjdking · January 2017

aidenmoore wrote: »

Curious as to why you want to nerf a role of a tank in PVP so much. Removing regen while blocking is not a good start, that was a stupid unnecessary nerf but people adapt to it.

I failed to see why these "permablockers" are an issue when most of them do almost no damage to anyone other than being a nuisance.

It irks me that people wants to narrow down PVP options to either DPS or BoL spammer. How about no, thank you?

I personally don't have an issue with permablocking, I do believe however there should be some serious bunkerbusting skills - Wrecking Blow and Werewolf are good candidates.

Domander · January 2017

silky_soft wrote: »

I hope these next patch notes include balancing in for perma blocking. We saw a while back they removed regen from block, that was a good start. Then you buffed the *** out of heavy and gave a new blocking trait. Boom, perma blockers reborn and pretty much rendering that regen change useless.

If you don't let battlespirit pike the perma blockers. It's time reduction moved away from % and used a solid value just like penetration. Even like armor, be capped at 50%.

So just some thing that can reduce block cost to lower then Constitutions return.
Sturdy: 32%

CP: 25%

Fortress: 36%

V16 Gold Shielding Enchant: 203/enchant

PvE could even l2p with offtanks, but that's too hard for casuals and dps racers so leave them alone. Just mess with battlespirit, not everyone has fear to glitch people out.

I think block is in a great place, it can be strategic as it's meant to be.... and there are still counters to it. (all classes have a disorient, and then there's fear, and ground aoes and dots... do I need to go on? ) You can build for it if you want, but you will be sacrificing more offensive options. A player built for block as a defense usually isn't going to be using dodge roll or shields as much, and also is unable to maximize damage.

Woeler · January 2017

Percentages are multiplied in the block cost formula, meaning the more you have, the less they are worth. The enchants consisting out of flat values are actually THE MOST useful as they are not affected by any multiplication factor in the formula. Flat values are actually going to be more useful most of the time. Especially with the nature of formulas like these, flat values will allow you to reach a zero point, percentages never will.

And honestly, if I'm in PVP and see one of these permablock dudes. I just go away. You can't kill them and they can't kill you. But if you're going to stand there like a --whatever-- banging on their shield because you somehow think you can kill them... well... that's a different kind of problem.

Asmael · January 2017

1) You already have the tools available to kill tanks, and there are plenty of them. I'm sure your casual and DPS racer mindset should have no issue with it if you put enough effort into it.
2) Play a tank, try it out, and find out what kills you most. Playing a build is the best way to know what are the weaknesses of said build.
3) Sturdy & heavy armor buff didn't reintroduce permablocking, that was already a thing. Check your math first, post after.
4) There are already offtanks in PvE

paulsimonps · January 2017

Woeler wrote: »

And honestly, if I'm in PVP and see one of these permablock dudes. I just go away. You can't kill them and they can't kill you. But if you're going to stand there like a --whatever-- banging on their shield because you somehow think you can kill them... well... that's a different kind of problem.

This right here!

Asmael wrote: »

3) Sturdy & heavy armor buff didn't reintroduce permablocking, that was already a thing. Check your math first, post after.

Also this!

RoyJade · January 2017

If something need a nerf, it's pierce armor's damage and proc set, who allow real permablocker tank to do huge damages in pvp. Permablocking itself actually is fine, because it have some counters and ask specifics builds (who sadly can use and abuse viper/velindreth/tremorscale).

silky_soft · January 2017

aidenmoore wrote: »

Curious as to why you want to nerf a role of a tank in PVP so much. Removing regen while blocking is not a good start, that was a stupid unnecessary nerf but people adapt to it.

I failed to see why these "permablockers" are an issue when most of them do almost no damage to anyone other than being a nuisance.

It irks me that people wants to narrow down PVP options to either DPS or BoL spammer. How about no, thank you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT25HFMuMJQ

Imagine the tears if someone was dodge rolling or streaking for 3 mins. Sure they are just EP from NA that don't know how to negate.

If you can adapt to no regen, then whats another 400 block cost? It's only going to get worse now ice staff can tank, regen through passive, do damage and heal for lots all at the same time. Might as well just bring regen back and we can all stand there popping vigor and bol.

Asmael wrote: »

1) You already have the tools available to kill tanks, and there are plenty of them. I'm sure your casual and DPS racer mindset should have no issue with it if you put enough effort into it.
2) Play a tank, try it out, and find out what kills you most. Playing a build is the best way to know what are the weaknesses of said build.
3) Sturdy & heavy armor buff didn't reintroduce permablocking, that was already a thing. Check your math first, post after.
4) There are already offtanks in PvE

I use negate and streak combo all the time or fossilize+smite on dk. Don't use fear as it's buggy and feel cheap for people who get permafeared, kinda like when you use poisons. No skill, not crit charge, jabs, bol, dodge, breakfree, whatever should be able to get permanently kept up.

Woeler wrote: »

Percentages are multiplied in the block cost formula, meaning the more you have, the less they are worth. The enchants consisting out of flat values are actually THE MOST useful as they are not affected by any multiplication factor in the formula. Flat values are actually going to be more useful most of the time. Especially with the nature of formulas like these, flat values will allow you to reach a zero point, percentages never will.

And honestly, if I'm in PVP and see one of these permablock dudes. I just go away. You can't kill them and they can't kill you. But if you're going to stand there like a --whatever-- banging on their shield because you somehow think you can kill them... well... that's a different kind of problem.

BlockCost = (((180 + 30*EffectiveLevel)*(1 - Item.Sturdy)*(1 + CP.BlockCost))*(1 + Set.BlockCost + Skill.BlockCost + Buff.BlockCost) + Item.BlockCost)*(1 + Skill2.BlockCost)

Something like that I believe. Allows you to get less than 600 I think if you full spec.

Derra · January 2017

aidenmoore wrote: »

Curious as to why you want to nerf a role of a tank in PVP so much. Removing regen while blocking is not a good start, that was a stupid unnecessary nerf but people adapt to it.

I failed to see why these "permablockers" are an issue when most of them do almost no damage to anyone other than being a nuisance.

It irks me that people wants to narrow down PVP options to either DPS or BoL spammer. How about no, thank you?

Simply because it´s too potent.
Builds that require multiple players attacking them before dying becomes even a remote possibilty as an outcome of a fight don´t create good gameplay.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2017

Derra wrote: »

aidenmoore wrote: »

Curious as to why you want to nerf a role of a tank in PVP so much. Removing regen while blocking is not a good start, that was a stupid unnecessary nerf but people adapt to it.

I failed to see why these "permablockers" are an issue when most of them do almost no damage to anyone other than being a nuisance.

It irks me that people wants to narrow down PVP options to either DPS or BoL spammer. How about no, thank you?

Simply because it´s too potent.
Builds that require multiple players attacking them before dying becomes even a remote possibilty as an outcome of a fight don´t create good gameplay.

That depends if they can kill back to me. Tanks can stand there not dieing for all I care, as long as they can't kill me back.

Bloody-Goodbyes · January 2017

Woeler wrote: »

But if you're going to stand there like a --whatever-- banging on their shield because you somehow think you can kill them... well... that's a different kind of problem.

Remembering all the times I've seen this happening I lol'd. The way you worded that was perfect.

The gank attempts I've seen on tanks were equally as hilarious. 30k resists and 40k health but nope, perfect gank target.

Valencer · January 2017

The "Just ignore them, they dont do any damage" argument pretty much goes out the window the moment you realise those same permablockers can actually be running around with stats along the lines of 38k max stamina + 3600 weapon damage.

And you are not going to kill them 1v1 unless theyre a particular kind of bad. Blocking with the "new" heavy armour is too potent for that. Hell, Im actually *gaining* stamina while holding block if someone is trying to 1v1 burst me.
Yeah, they took away stam regen while blocking long ago, but with all the power creep the past year block seems stronger than ever in the right specs.

Some messy battle spirit change is not the solution though.

aidenmoore · January 2017

silky_soft wrote: »

aidenmoore wrote: »

Curious as to why you want to nerf a role of a tank in PVP so much. Removing regen while blocking is not a good start, that was a stupid unnecessary nerf but people adapt to it.

I failed to see why these "permablockers" are an issue when most of them do almost no damage to anyone other than being a nuisance.

It irks me that people wants to narrow down PVP options to either DPS or BoL spammer. How about no, thank you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT25HFMuMJQ

Imagine the tears if someone was dodge rolling or streaking for 3 mins. Sure they are just EP from NA that don't know how to negate.

If you can adapt to no regen, then whats another 400 block cost? It's only going to get worse now ice staff can tank, regen through passive, do damage and heal for lots all at the same time. Might as well just bring regen back and we can all stand there popping vigor and bol.

That video only show how overperforming Desert Rose are. I love Vanzan!

Derra wrote: »

aidenmoore wrote: »

Curious as to why you want to nerf a role of a tank in PVP so much. Removing regen while blocking is not a good start, that was a stupid unnecessary nerf but people adapt to it.

I failed to see why these "permablockers" are an issue when most of them do almost no damage to anyone other than being a nuisance.

It irks me that people wants to narrow down PVP options to either DPS or BoL spammer. How about no, thank you?

Simply because it´s too potent.
Builds that require multiple players attacking them before dying becomes even a remote possibilty as an outcome of a fight don´t create good gameplay.

I disagree. Realizing that you are fighting against a tank? Simply walk away unless your ego got in the way. No one forcing anyone to fight against a tank.

It all boils down to you. You have a choice, walk away or fight endless battle. Unless that "tank" able to kill 1 by 1 decent players then something is severely broken about that person's build.

aidenmoore · January 2017

Valencer wrote: »

The "Just ignore them, they dont do any damage" argument pretty much goes out the window the moment you realise those same permablockers can actually be running around with stats along the lines of 38k max stamina + 3600 weapon damage.

And you are not going to kill them 1v1 unless theyre a particular kind of bad. Blocking with the "new" heavy armour is too potent for that. Hell, Im actually *gaining* stamina while holding block if someone is trying to 1v1 burst me.
Yeah, they took away stam regen while blocking long ago, but with all the power creep the past year block seems stronger than ever in the right specs.

Some messy battle spirit change is not the solution though.

Then the issue is probably combination of sets that able to achieve such obscene amount of Weapon Damage and Max Stamina not actually blocking itself. Hmm?

zyk · January 2017

I thought blocking was in a very good place from ESO 2.1 through 2.3. I think it was changed in 2.4? It took some thought to use effectively. Both in PVP and PVE.

When I consider the changes made to heavy armor, I can't help but to think back to the PVE tanks who, for almost a year, complained about tanking vet dungeons without permablocking.

I think the return of trvial permablocking was part of the goal @ZOS_RichLambert has to lower the skill ceiling in eso.

Valencer · January 2017

aidenmoore wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

The "Just ignore them, they dont do any damage" argument pretty much goes out the window the moment you realise those same permablockers can actually be running around with stats along the lines of 38k max stamina + 3600 weapon damage.

And you are not going to kill them 1v1 unless theyre a particular kind of bad. Blocking with the "new" heavy armour is too potent for that. Hell, Im actually *gaining* stamina while holding block if someone is trying to 1v1 burst me.
Yeah, they took away stam regen while blocking long ago, but with all the power creep the past year block seems stronger than ever in the right specs.

Some messy battle spirit change is not the solution though.

Then the issue is probably combination of sets that able to achieve such obscene amount of Weapon Damage and Max Stamina not actually blocking itself. Hmm?

Bloodspawn, Black Rose, Agility, Maelstrom 2H. Night's Silence Sword and shield on the back bar for blocking. Weapon damage can go even higher if you use a monster set like velidreth instead.

If you want even higher max stats there's alternatives to black rose too.

Derra · January 2017

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

aidenmoore wrote: »

Curious as to why you want to nerf a role of a tank in PVP so much. Removing regen while blocking is not a good start, that was a stupid unnecessary nerf but people adapt to it.

I failed to see why these "permablockers" are an issue when most of them do almost no damage to anyone other than being a nuisance.

It irks me that people wants to narrow down PVP options to either DPS or BoL spammer. How about no, thank you?

Simply because it´s too potent.
Builds that require multiple players attacking them before dying becomes even a remote possibilty as an outcome of a fight don´t create good gameplay.

That depends if they can kill back to me. Tanks can stand there not dieing for all I care, as long as they can't kill me back.

For me it starts even earlier. If i can´t get rid of them without running into a keep.

Even if they can´t kill me and i can´t kill them - you can´t escape them and if they decide it´s worth their time to create a miserable gameplay experience for you, you´re entirely at their mercy.
A snaring gapcloser and 1 spammable cc is all it takes.

Derra · January 2017

zyk wrote: »

I thought blocking was in a very good place from ESO 2.1 through 2.3. I think it was changed in 2.4? It took some thought to use effectively. Both in PVP and PVE.

When I consider the changes made to heavy armor, I can't help but to think back to the PVE tanks who, for almost a year, complained about tanking vet dungeons without permablocking.

I think the return of trvial permablocking was part of the goal @ZOS_RichLambert has to lower the skill ceiling in eso.

Simple fix for cyrodiil.

Dmg is halved. Heals are halved. Shields are halved.

Halve the dmg reduction of block with battlespirit.

danno8 · January 2017

aidenmoore wrote: »

silky_soft wrote: »

aidenmoore wrote: »

Curious as to why you want to nerf a role of a tank in PVP so much. Removing regen while blocking is not a good start, that was a stupid unnecessary nerf but people adapt to it.

I failed to see why these "permablockers" are an issue when most of them do almost no damage to anyone other than being a nuisance.

It irks me that people wants to narrow down PVP options to either DPS or BoL spammer. How about no, thank you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT25HFMuMJQ

Imagine the tears if someone was dodge rolling or streaking for 3 mins. Sure they are just EP from NA that don't know how to negate.

If you can adapt to no regen, then whats another 400 block cost? It's only going to get worse now ice staff can tank, regen through passive, do damage and heal for lots all at the same time. Might as well just bring regen back and we can all stand there popping vigor and bol.

That video only show how overperforming Desert Rose are. I love Vanzan!

Derra wrote: »

aidenmoore wrote: »

Curious as to why you want to nerf a role of a tank in PVP so much. Removing regen while blocking is not a good start, that was a stupid unnecessary nerf but people adapt to it.

I failed to see why these "permablockers" are an issue when most of them do almost no damage to anyone other than being a nuisance.

It irks me that people wants to narrow down PVP options to either DPS or BoL spammer. How about no, thank you?

Simply because it´s too potent.
Builds that require multiple players attacking them before dying becomes even a remote possibilty as an outcome of a fight don´t create good gameplay.

I disagree. Realizing that you are fighting against a tank? Simply walk away unless your ego got in the way. No one forcing anyone to fight against a tank.

It all boils down to you. You have a choice, walk away or fight endless battle. Unless that "tank" able to kill 1 by 1 decent players then something is severely broken about that person's build.

Open field yes.

Problem is these guys can (and do) flag keeps and take resources. You can't ignore them forever and then you need half a raid to take them down.

BTW, for the one who said all classes can deal with tanks, Templars have no CC that can go through block effectively, as Luminous Shards breaks immediately since it has no damage buffer on the disorient.