PTS Feedback Thread for Dragonknight Balance Improvements

themdogesbite · January 2017

It's nice to see that some people still have the energy to bother, i just can't be bothered anymore and it's just easier on my blood pressure to play a class that actually works in PvP.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO · January 2017

Very simple fix. Give Dragons Blood a minimum heal amount which ignores the max Magicka scaling.

So if you're low magicka when you pop it you get a critical heal for big.

But when you have a lot of Magicka the minimum should kick in to override the Magicka scaling.

IxskullzxI · January 2017

CaliMade wrote: »

i think everybody is too wrapped up in obsidian shard being blockable. The morphs of this move are good....i consistently get 7-9k damage with stone Giant morph when it cc's and ive milked up to a 9k heal out of the other morph when i used to use it.

this move is fine and it hits pretty hard. mix it with a 6k flame lash and an 8k powerlash and you get solid burst dmg without even using an ult....i swear ppl be condemning moves they haven't even tried to use once.

"inhale>stone giant>flame lash(exhale)>power lash" will kill anybody that isnt a full on tank....i dont need a 20k leap to create burst that already exists. 16k is just perfect

i also belive it will be stronger than that, my tooltip now pre-patch UNBUFFED is 12k.

12000+%7(dark elf)=12840

12840+%6(flame AOE)=13610.5

13610+%25(Elemental Expert)=17,013.1

17013.1+%20(major sorcery)=20,415.72

keep in mind that this is BEFORE burning spellweave procs.

Agree here. I feel like a lot of the problems people have with mDK are because they are unwilling to try skills or builds they haven't before.

Veg · January 2017

IxskullzxI wrote: »

CaliMade wrote: »

i think everybody is too wrapped up in obsidian shard being blockable. The morphs of this move are good....i consistently get 7-9k damage with stone Giant morph when it cc's and ive milked up to a 9k heal out of the other morph when i used to use it.

this move is fine and it hits pretty hard. mix it with a 6k flame lash and an 8k powerlash and you get solid burst dmg without even using an ult....i swear ppl be condemning moves they haven't even tried to use once.

"inhale>stone giant>flame lash(exhale)>power lash" will kill anybody that isnt a full on tank....i dont need a 20k leap to create burst that already exists. 16k is just perfect

i also belive it will be stronger than that, my tooltip now pre-patch UNBUFFED is 12k.

12000+%7(dark elf)=12840

12840+%6(flame AOE)=13610.5

13610+%25(Elemental Expert)=17,013.1

17013.1+%20(major sorcery)=20,415.72

keep in mind that this is BEFORE burning spellweave procs.

Agree here. I feel like a lot of the problems people have with mDK are because they are unwilling to try skills or builds they haven't before.

I've tried everything. From classic s/board all the way to ice staff with soul assault. Believe me when i say mDK's do not have a single viable kill mechanic in pvp. We can tank. We can kill bad players. We can even get emperor.

We cannot fight other skilled players. We cannot be the damage dealer. I just finished testing F-leap with glass canon builds and it doesn't compete with other high damaging ultimate's. My tool tip was at 21k damage without wrath and my testing partner got the same with light armor. The crits were doing around 13k damage and non crits at 8k. These were builds we cannot use on live. Builds that have 0 sustain and 0 damage mitigation.

It's close but needs something to tie into. The shield needs to be replaced with some kind of offensive buff. Could be a DoT. Could be %chance of doing additional damage. But it needs something.

Even if F-leap was on par with dawnbreaker of smiting it wouldn't be over powered. Where are the thousands of people asking for DoS to be nerfed on stam builds that do have executes to tie into? All we want is to be able to fight other players.

venomsky · January 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback in this thread. We have some updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Obsidian Shard – Doubled the speed of the projectile.

Fiery Grip (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. Also reduced the duration of the expedition buff by 2 seconds. (6s instead of 8s) Note: the damage portion of this ability can still be blocked.

Dragon Leap (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. (it is an AOE after all). In addition we fixed an issue where the CC immunity while leaping was not being added correctly – you are now immune to all forms of CC, including roots while leaping. Note – players can still out range this ability while the DK is in the air if the DK leaps from max range and the player immediately runs away.

As a note, we are still evaluating the changes to Coagulating Blood. We do hear your feedback on this ability and will continue to monitor it closely on PTS.

i just want to remind that stamdk or magdk it's still dk, and stam dk could use some buffs too

Stamden · January 2017

venomsky wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback in this thread. We have some updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Obsidian Shard – Doubled the speed of the projectile.

Fiery Grip (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. Also reduced the duration of the expedition buff by 2 seconds. (6s instead of 8s) Note: the damage portion of this ability can still be blocked.

Dragon Leap (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. (it is an AOE after all). In addition we fixed an issue where the CC immunity while leaping was not being added correctly – you are now immune to all forms of CC, including roots while leaping. Note – players can still out range this ability while the DK is in the air if the DK leaps from max range and the player immediately runs away.

As a note, we are still evaluating the changes to Coagulating Blood. We do hear your feedback on this ability and will continue to monitor it closely on PTS.

i just want to remind that stamdk or magdk it's still dk, and stam dk could use some buffs too

Especially in PvE yes. No AoE = no good.

MaxwellC · January 2017

@venomsky
Yes you're absolutely correct we could definitely use some sort of buffs for stam DK, it's OP as some players claim it to be unless you feel that heavy attacking while using skills available to everyone is considered OP then you need to look at the skill line not the variant of the class.

@Veg
I'd definitely make a video if I had videos of me using Flames of Oblivion before it was scrapped with this garbage mage light reskin.In regards to dragon's blood I'd definitely make a video in the future when I get an opportunity because it's rather simple if it scales off of Max health it would be viable for classes who have 17k health outside of PvP. Let's say they buff the scale to 40% of max health welll 17k * 40% would be 6,800 outside of PvP (without major mending in play but major mending adds about 6% to the tooltip). In PvP since you get 5k health your health will be 22k so 22k *40% = 8,800 * 50% = 4,400 (constant heal). If ZOS allows it to crit then it would be even better but you at 22k health would receive a 4.4k consistent heal without the use of major mending or any CP in your arsenal.
If you add CP to the mix you could achieve even better results especially since blessed and healing received CP both count towards the heal you cast.

Stamden · January 2017

themdogesbite wrote: »

It's nice to see that some people still have the energy to bother, i just can't be bothered anymore and it's just easier on my blood pressure to play a class that actually works in PvP.

It's hard to see what else to do. You'd think giving feedback would be at least a little helpful.

Maybe we should start crying and being unreasonable like the Sorcs. That's the only way they give real buffs to abilities it seems.

TheHsN · January 2017

venomsky wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback in this thread. We have some updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Obsidian Shard – Doubled the speed of the projectile.

Fiery Grip (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. Also reduced the duration of the expedition buff by 2 seconds. (6s instead of 8s) Note: the damage portion of this ability can still be blocked.

Dragon Leap (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. (it is an AOE after all). In addition we fixed an issue where the CC immunity while leaping was not being added correctly – you are now immune to all forms of CC, including roots while leaping. Note – players can still out range this ability while the DK is in the air if the DK leaps from max range and the player immediately runs away.

As a note, we are still evaluating the changes to Coagulating Blood. We do hear your feedback on this ability and will continue to monitor it closely on PTS.

i just want to remind that stamdk or magdk it's still dk, and stam dk could use some buffs too

why to be the GOD

TheHsN · January 2017

Neighbor wrote: »

venomsky wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback in this thread. We have some updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Obsidian Shard – Doubled the speed of the projectile.

Fiery Grip (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. Also reduced the duration of the expedition buff by 2 seconds. (6s instead of 8s) Note: the damage portion of this ability can still be blocked.

Dragon Leap (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. (it is an AOE after all). In addition we fixed an issue where the CC immunity while leaping was not being added correctly – you are now immune to all forms of CC, including roots while leaping. Note – players can still out range this ability while the DK is in the air if the DK leaps from max range and the player immediately runs away.

As a note, we are still evaluating the changes to Coagulating Blood. We do hear your feedback on this ability and will continue to monitor it closely on PTS.

i just want to remind that stamdk or magdk it's still dk, and stam dk could use some buffs too

Especially in PvE yes. No AoE = no good.

PVEEEE.... whatch videos pls people are making 50k DPS with Stam DK

Berenhir · January 2017

Wings still reflect frags, flares and completely shut down whole classes, e.g. ranged magblades - no strife no scourge no impale.
I don't understand the pathetic whining, especially with all the buffs mDKs got this patch.

When will you be satisfied? mDKs have monstrous utility in melee range and happily reflect block or shield everything outside talon range. You got froststaff tanking, heavily increased damage, max magicka on black rose, huge leap damage increase and might possibly get another burst heal with reredesigned dragon blood some time soon while damage spikes from proccing opponents have been nerfed significantly.

If chains now turnout to work properly, good mDKs will be completely overpowered in PvP.

pieratsos · January 2017

Berenhir wrote: »

Wings still reflect frags, flares and completely shut down whole classes, e.g. ranged magblades - no strife no scourge no impale.
I don't understand the pathetic whining, especially with all the buffs mDKs got this patch.

When will you be satisfied? mDKs have monstrous utility in melee range and happily reflect block or shield everything outside talon range. You got froststaff tanking, heavily increased damage, max magicka on black rose, huge leap damage increase and might possibly get another burst heal with reredesigned dragon blood some time soon while damage spikes from proccing opponents have been nerfed significantly.

If chains now turnout to work properly, good mDKs will be completely overpowered in PvP.

I guess u have never played mDK right?

Armitas · January 2017

Berenhir wrote: »

Wings still reflect frags, flares and completely shut down whole classes, e.g. ranged magblades - no strife no scourge no impale.
I don't understand the pathetic whining, especially with all the buffs mDKs got this patch.

When will you be satisfied? mDKs have monstrous utility in melee range and happily reflect block or shield everything outside talon range. You got froststaff tanking, heavily increased damage, max magicka on black rose, huge leap damage increase and might possibly get another burst heal with reredesigned dragon blood some time soon while damage spikes from proccing opponents have been nerfed significantly.

If chains now turnout to work properly, good mDKs will be completely overpowered in PvP.

It doesn't stop the defile from flare, and most sorcs don't hard cast, and if what I read the other day is correct you can hide the Frag cast animation under a heavy attack. Magblade has magic melee they can use and they can apply their ranged like everyone else when the giant wings that are impossible to miss are down, it only last 4 seconds and doesn't stay up forever.

You have to build to block, which cost you in damage and igneous shield isn't going to do jack; you must be referring to a non DK shield. Everyone got frost staff tanking, our damage wasn't heavily increased it was brought up to competitive levels with surprise strike which did more damage at base, reduced the targets armor by 5280 and gives the caster 5280 armor, we have an entire skill that gives us 5280 armor, not a passive. And we paid for that bonus with a nerf to banner. The leap damage is not huge, ferocious leap was the low damage leap morph. They didn't increase the damage of it, the damage increased because it now works with magicka CP. It doesn't have the morph damage bonus of take flight.

This is the DK section for a reason, it's there so that the people who actually play the class can comment on it, not so other classes can come troll it with baseless speculation.

venomsky · January 2017

TheHsN wrote: »

venomsky wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback in this thread. We have some updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Obsidian Shard – Doubled the speed of the projectile.

Fiery Grip (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. Also reduced the duration of the expedition buff by 2 seconds. (6s instead of 8s) Note: the damage portion of this ability can still be blocked.

Dragon Leap (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. (it is an AOE after all). In addition we fixed an issue where the CC immunity while leaping was not being added correctly – you are now immune to all forms of CC, including roots while leaping. Note – players can still out range this ability while the DK is in the air if the DK leaps from max range and the player immediately runs away.

As a note, we are still evaluating the changes to Coagulating Blood. We do hear your feedback on this ability and will continue to monitor it closely on PTS.

i just want to remind that stamdk or magdk it's still dk, and stam dk could use some buffs too

why to be the GOD

why are u here?maybe u should lvl one dk and play with dk first ?

Berenhir · January 2017

pieratsos wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Wings still reflect frags, flares and completely shut down whole classes, e.g. ranged magblades - no strife no scourge no impale.
I don't understand the pathetic whining, especially with all the buffs mDKs got this patch.

When will you be satisfied? mDKs have monstrous utility in melee range and happily reflect block or shield everything outside talon range. You got froststaff tanking, heavily increased damage, max magicka on black rose, huge leap damage increase and might possibly get another burst heal with reredesigned dragon blood some time soon while damage spikes from proccing opponents have been nerfed significantly.

If chains now turnout to work properly, good mDKs will be completely overpowered in PvP.

I guess u have never played mDK right?

No, wrong. I played mDK a lot since OT dropped. Maybe I am not clueless and just have a different opinion?

Stamden · January 2017

TheHsN wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

venomsky wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback in this thread. We have some updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Obsidian Shard – Doubled the speed of the projectile.

Fiery Grip (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. Also reduced the duration of the expedition buff by 2 seconds. (6s instead of 8s) Note: the damage portion of this ability can still be blocked.

Dragon Leap (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. (it is an AOE after all). In addition we fixed an issue where the CC immunity while leaping was not being added correctly – you are now immune to all forms of CC, including roots while leaping. Note – players can still out range this ability while the DK is in the air if the DK leaps from max range and the player immediately runs away.

As a note, we are still evaluating the changes to Coagulating Blood. We do hear your feedback on this ability and will continue to monitor it closely on PTS.

i just want to remind that stamdk or magdk it's still dk, and stam dk could use some buffs too

Especially in PvE yes. No AoE = no good.

PVEEEE.... whatch videos pls people are making 50k DPS with Stam DK

Yes you do slightly more single target damage (from the hardest and most complex rotation in the game, mind you) then mag DPS and are completely useless in AoE killing. Considering how important AoE is in trials, running Stam DKs (or really any stam characters for that matter) is not optimal.

EnOeZ · January 2017

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Sorry for Double, but if anyone cares, this is how I would fix magic DK.

Buff Flame lash - Hey you got that one right! The buff didnt need to be huge, and I think this is just about right.

Fix CDB - This could be done in many ways, but the way you chose aint one of them. It actively encourages poor resource management, which is just terrible. Removing the battlespirit effect to the original version would probably do the trick. You could also make it scale off of missing stats (all 3), or just scrap it and make it a basic BOL type heal. Literally anything is better than what you did. DKs need a simple and effective heal without any gimmicks.

Make Burning Embers unpurgeable. A DK simply cant kill a templar or anyone running purge if they know what they are doing. This is also by far our best heal (as CDB sucks hard), so having someone remove it is twice as bad.

Deep Breath - This skill is great, but it just needs a little buff. Slightly bigger heal and slightly more damage. I would like to see this scale up very fast as more and more enemies are hit. You want us to be tanks after all.

Igneous Shield - This is another skill that just needs a small buff. Slightly bigger shield (doesnt need to be anulment levels) and slightly more stamina return (technically a passive buff).

Ash Cloud - Just give us a reason to use this outside of a PVE DPS rotation. It is barely noticable in PVP. People should fear standing in this and now most dont even realize its on the ground. Bring this back to the glory days.

As for other skills:

Stop wasting your time with chains. As it doesnt freaking work half the time anyway, nobody uses this outside of PVE. The speed buff is meaningless and nobody is going to use it.

Obsidain Shard - again, nobody uses this. The heal is a joke in PVP and why would I slot that when I can slot fossilize. Much better. This skill needs scrapped and redesigned IMO.

I am ok with your proposals except:

I would absolutely use the speed buff if the chains were to be reliable again (as at lauch) and much faster since it is the slowest by far gap closer ability.
I found a use to stone giant (as a PVP stam DK though) since it is my furthest hitting ability (and only long range ability) slotted (as 2H+SB).

forzajuve212 · January 2017

I seriously think people are flipping out way too much on ZOS right now...

We're getting some significant buffs. Is the coag blood change the most ideal? No. Is hitting a 17k crit coag blood in PVP on PTS vs the regular 3-4k on live a buff? Yes, for me it is. Anything they are giving us right now is better than the current live coag blood. Although I still agree with many of you that it will be unreliable in the scenario where you are getting ganked and have 100% max magicka and low health. But come on now.... calling it a nerf is actually ridiculous. If you've tested it on PTS, coag blood is hitting so much harder than the current live version, in no way shape or form is this a nerf. Even at 75% or 50% magicka, I was hitting 7-10k+ coag bloods, so the argument that you need to be at 10% max magicka for this to actually heal is incorrect. It still hits harder than on live even with a large magicka pool left.

An undodgeable leap that is immune to CC's and roots that has a higher tooltip damage than meteor, a slightly stronger whip, a hard hitting coag blood (that is unreliable in a few situations), increased dot damage from Volatile (underrated buff, it does more damage than engulfing flames now), plus an undodgeable gap closer all make this patch a, yes, buff. I know, I know, everyone is still freaking over the fact that wings is effectively useless, plus other passives and abilities that are useless, but we gotta take what we can get and this patch is the biggest buff we've gotten in almost 2 years.

TL;DR - Even though there are still balancing problems that we can criticize ZOS on for mag dk, this patch can be and should be considered a buff. Any bone they throw us is better than the live state of mag dk so, this is a start in the right direction. We should continute to voice to ZOS reasonable criticism and offer than balance suggestions that are realistic and not overpowered. I know we want magicka dk to return to glory days, but this is the most we've ever gotten from ZOS since 1.6 and for now, let's appreciate that and continue to move forward in helping ZOS balance dk correctly.

EnOeZ · January 2017

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

EnOeZ wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback in this thread. We have some updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Obsidian Shard – Doubled the speed of the projectile.

Fiery Grip (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. Also reduced the duration of the expedition buff by 2 seconds. (6s instead of 8s) Note: the damage portion of this ability can still be blocked.

Dragon Leap (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. (it is an AOE after all). In addition we fixed an issue where the CC immunity while leaping was not being added correctly – you are now immune to all forms of CC, including roots while leaping. Note – players can still out range this ability while the DK is in the air if the DK leaps from max range and the player immediately runs away.

As a note, we are still evaluating the changes to Coagulating Blood. We do hear your feedback on this ability and will continue to monitor it closely on PTS.

By obsidian shard, you mean Stone Fist and morphs, right ?

Does it matter? We were literally laughing out loud at a guy casting this in cyro last night. The skill is beyond useless.

I agree it is not a great skill, however it is among my possible options in my setup as melee Stam DK to dump magicka and get stamina back. It is also my only way to reliably catch runners or hit range players during sieges. Fossilize is superior I agree but short range and more expansive therefore slightly inferior for stamina generation.

EnOeZ · January 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback in this thread. We have some updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Obsidian Shard – Doubled the speed of the projectile.

Fiery Grip (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. Also reduced the duration of the expedition buff by 2 seconds. (6s instead of 8s) Note: the damage portion of this ability can still be blocked.

Dragon Leap (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. (it is an AOE after all). In addition we fixed an issue where the CC immunity while leaping was not being added correctly – you are now immune to all forms of CC, including roots while leaping. Note – players can still out range this ability while the DK is in the air if the DK leaps from max range and the player immediately runs away.

As a note, we are still evaluating the changes to Coagulating Blood. We do hear your feedback on this ability and will continue to monitor it closely on PTS.

Although it is not my interest as stam DK to have Dragon Leap changed to magicka, I do agree it will be very helpful for MagDK for some kind of burst purposes.

Would you wind however assessing the following changes to the class since we have as players, months now of playtime with it: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/246221/dk-abilities-redistribution

Ardent Flame:
Fiery Grip -> Earthen Heart
Inferno -> Draconic Power
Draconic Power:
Talons -> Earthen Heart
Inhale -> Earthen Heart
Hearthen Heart:
Stone Fist -> Ardent Flame
Obsidian Shield -> Draconic Power
Ash Cloud -> Ardent Flame
-- Per ability explanation: --

Hearthen Heart is a tree design for stamina returns and weapon buffs
Fiery Grip and Talons are often the only magicka abilities in Stamina setups. They would use better the stamina return from Helping Hands and the weapon buff from Mountain blessing.
Inhale is an iconic ability of the DK to "stand his ground", a situation where block is necessary meaning to Stamina Regen. Placing Inhale in Hearthen Heart allows stamina return from Helping Hands and longer tanking. It seems so elegant this way.

Draconic Power is a tree taking advantage of lasting effects (which Talons and Inhale are not) with Burning Heat 12% additional healing received which is useless for Talons and Inhale, abilities that do not benefit from a passive from the tree. On a sidenote "Eleder Dragon" should be modified to percentage of health/2s (1,5/3%) while a Draconic Ability is active since close to no one uses health regen in PVP and End Game (if not for Engine Guardian).
Inferno (keeping its slow effect) and Obsidian Shield are lasting abilities that would take advantage of those two passives immensely, benefiting from additional healing even if Obsidian Shield expires or better a redesign of the ability keeping major mending but reducing the next 7 hits by 5/10% of health (2,5/5% in Cyrodiil). I will add that obsidian is counter productive with Heavy Armor "Constitution Passive" currently since it prevents being hit, this change would allow the (too) small resources from Constitution to proc. Inferno could be redesign to taunt and apply a debuff minor fracture (less armor), minor breach (less spell resistance), minor protection (8% less damage from target) or minor maim (less damage dealt) fitting it's new tanking tree perfectly and providing diversity to tanks setup. I would love the Inferno ability to be PBAOE again (like at launch).

Ardent Flame is the DPS tree, the place of flame/fire damage
That's the reason why Stone Fist and Ash Cloud belong to that tree taking especially advantage of all the passives: Stone Fist would slow additionally after the stun and could proc kindling, Ash Cloud would take advantage of Wold in flame (additional damage), warmth meaning at casting and for 2 seconds, target is rooted (70%+30% slow) or almost if computation is multiplicative (some inconsistency/obscurity in the way combat elements in general are calculated in TESO sadly)

I do believe those changes would make a more coherent and more elegant Dragon Knight design, more enjoyable to play too, with now exciting and logical combos.
For stamina DKs, those changes would make us feel more like DKs and less like weapon abilities users with better coherency.
For magicka DKs, those changes would allow two new damage dealing options, especially an instant and range one: Stone Fist and a range CC: Ash Cloud with a two seconds range root
For tanks, the addition of much a needed stamina return on Inhale would be so welcome, especially in PVP tanking, since you know we cannot avoid combat... and modifying Obsidian to still receive hits to proc not only "Constitution" from Heavy Armor but also all those sets bonuses that require you to get hit (Blood Spawn, Sourge Harvester, Warrior's Fury, etc.) would be coherent
For the other classes and balance, no direct buff just displacement of 7 skills in our already existing trees.
For the developers, easy elegant and beautiful changes, don't you think fellow DKs ?

MaxwellC · January 2017

I can't agree with those changes ^ Especially since you don't realize that you're stealing stam dks only source of stamina return (reliably) aka Igneous shield.

Armitas · January 2017

forzajuve212 wrote: »

I seriously think people are flipping out way too much on ZOS right now...

We're getting some significant buffs. Is the coag blood change the most ideal? No. Is hitting a 17k crit coag blood in PVP on PTS vs the regular 3-4k on live a buff? Yes, for me it is. Anything they are giving us right now is better than the current live coag blood. Although I still agree with many of you that it will be unreliable in the scenario where you are getting ganked and have 100% max magicka and low health. But come on now.... calling it a nerf is actually ridiculous. If you've tested it on PTS, coag blood is hitting so much harder than the current live version, in no way shape or form is this a nerf. Even at 75% or 50% magicka, I was hitting 7-10k+ coag bloods, so the argument that you need to be at 10% max magicka for this to actually heal is incorrect. It still hits harder than on live even with a large magicka pool left.

I think its a mistake to analyze the value of cDB quantitatively. It has to be analyzed qualitatively. 17k cDB crit represents 1 step out of the grave. The amount of missing magicka that is required for it to heal that much puts the DK at certain death. In reality even self buffed with the 8% extra healing cDB will not compete with Blessing of Restoration until 60-61% missing magicka. 1 meteor battle roar can give you 11,000 magicka and can easily turn your heal into a dud. It is extraordinarily unreliable both in the beginning and in the middle of the fight and forces you to waste magicka to get it to work. It's not just battle roars and ganks we have to worry about. Many DK's are wearing sustain trigger sets like desert rose that they can't turn off. Imo it is the most ill conceived self described buff I have ever seen in a game. It is like giving with one hand and slapping with another. They had a plenitude of suggestions to fix it by and they deliberately chose to buff it in a way that would backfire on us.

It's like a car that gets 200miles to the gallon but with the condition that it might not start in the morning when you have to go to work. Who would buy that car?

______
The guy who designed this "buff" doesn't appear to want it to be flatly good. He said on an ESO live that he is ok with it being good for somethings (PvE) and bad for others (PvP). But he doesn't realize it's bad for both and it's been that way for a long time. I talked to one of the few vMOL tanks and he doesn't use either morph. I don't use it when I tank, why would I when burning embers can give me all the heal I need and take me to full while doing damage? It's been bad for a long time but they have just been too hardheaded to realize it. Now cDB is even weaker for tanking, and gDB doesn't provide stam recovery while blocking. Outside of leveling why would I ever slot this in PvE, and why would I trust my life on it in PvP?

crommm · January 2017

I'll just leave these here. They sum these balance changes perfectly

https://youtu.be/Nq1mz3FGwzE

https://youtu.be/lxANa8UXx3Y

EnOeZ · January 2017

MaxwellC wrote: »

@OrphanHelgen
Well most people are shying away from Stam DK because people keep saying that we're the best in PvP as if we're some insurmountable force that needs zerg to bring them down. Every-time I press someone in regards as to why Stam DK is so OP to them, they either state that we somehow synergize with ever new meta whether it be ransack into reverb into bash or dizzing swimg into take flight (even though smiting dawnbreaker does more damage and so does onslaught).

Noxious breath is terrible in PvP but I do use it to get enemies out of stealth but my main issue with it is how unreliable it is. It sometimes will never provide the debuff (not sure if it's lag related) but the enemy's health isn't showing a bar over it (which would indicate it's buffed by fortifying status like major resolve) and it still wouldn't debuff them. The delay is incredibly annoying and the immediate damage is considerably weak (literally hitting 4k crits on NPCs which aren't affected by battle spirit in PvP lmao..).

Standard of might I really wish they'd increase the duration of this ultimate by like 15 seconds or if anything make it cost 200 again and apply it's 50% major defile. I'm tired of the lack uniqueness in this game, how should an ultimate's debuff especially when it costs 250 still be on par with other abilities in the game. That right there is annoying.

What made my angry like 3-4 title updates ago was the fact that the sorcerer class got hurricane WHICH WAS STOLEN FROM DRAGON KNIGHTS...!! We had Flames of Oblivion and that in its self was an awesome ability but it came with so many negative effects such as I believe being slowed was one and also another was draining your magicka at a constant rate. It was taken from us because of 'graphical issues with the client' but then we get B-slapped in the face by @Wrobel when he decides "Oh yeah sorcerers should have that ability"

^Flames of Oblivion needs to make a come back to us and if anyone wants to complain about it not being a unique skill then remove sorcerers hurricane and replace it to what it was before because that ability was originally ours to begin with. I still want flames of oblivion to give a new effect with no negatives such as buffing all DoT damage by X percent and maybe inflicting some new kind of debuff.

It would be nice if since we're the class of sustain (LOL not anymore) and holding your ground (that died long ago) could get 10% stamina back per earthen heart skill that would at-least aid recovering stamina somewhat better that sorcerers who recover from dark exchange or dark deal health/mag and health/stam (which is bs imo).

I would love some new skills so we can actually get some stamina spam-able skills for the stam DK variant but that's not happening in a long time since ZOS is focused on homestead and the next DLC which most likely will include a trial.

Agree so much on hurricane !!! ^^

IxskullzxI · January 2017

@Armitas
What do you do on live right now when you get ganked on your mDK?

Armitas · January 2017

IxskullzxI wrote: »

@Armitas
What do you do on live right now when you get ganked on your mDK?

It's different everytime. If I preslotted tripots i'll go for that first. If not I break free, dodge roll, shattering rocks and depending on how bad my health is and how I judge the situation I go for BoR or powerlash heal. If I can't mez i'll talon and go for BoR and then a powerlash heal.

Toc de Malsvi · January 2017

The Stam vs Mag issues within the DK class are not unique to the DK and are problems within every class, except for possibly the NB. The issue at its heart goes back to the initial envisioning of Stam as a build, where the intent was Stam would find it's identity in the weapon skill lines rather than in the class skill lines. Without support of class skill lines Stam was incredibly weak and thus ignored by the majority of the player base.

This was changed with successive patches to add Stam morphs and to further attempt to balance the game not just on class basis but on Stam vs Mag. I am fairly certain most long term posters on this forum are aware of this whether they cognitively allow for it or not.

Thus you have not only an imbalance but significant problems within them. Stam lacks class identity and desires more class support, Mag lacks weapon options and does not want to lose the class morph options they currently have available. Looking at defensives at different points in time either dodge rolling, blocking, or shielding will be too strong and overused, this is only compounded by skill differences and class differences.

One of the essential issues to the DK is the imbalance of Battle Roar as a passive, as a tri-stat direct resource return it is either incredibly overpowered or underpowered. It is neither directly more beneficial to Stam or to Mag, but it is extremely potent when at its best. I am not sure DK's can be very well balanced as long as this passive exists.

The Stam v Mag split is a design flaw that will never be balanced, it was arbitrarily introduced in what appears to have been an attempt to make Stam unique. CP only further compromises the system and exacerbates the problem.

There would appear to be a couple simple steps towards alleviating the issues, one would be to add more Stam based class options while also adding additional Mag weapon lines, another option would be to base all skills off of one resource and leave sprint, dodge, block as its own resource pool.

As far as Mag DK issues currently they are not very far off from being incredibly strong, which is why I assume ZOS is so hesitant to buff them.

More recently ZOS as stated they wish for the DK to be a DOT class, specifically in response to the lack of an execute. If DK's are destined to be tied to DOT's then DK's need buffs to Passives to support that. Magicka DK's in particular could use a ranged DOT.

Combustion
This passive could really stand a significant buff, it is largely inconsequential in its current form. Especially versus players where it does no significant damage.

Warmth
The slow from this passive is hardly noticeable, especially in the world of constant gap closers. This passive could stand to be increased to 40% or even 50%.

Ash Cloud
When you could gain Major Evasion by standing inside this AOE, at that time the size of this AOE made sense it is no longer justifiable. This AOE could stand to be increased in size to a radius more comparable with other ground based AOE's, an 8m or so radius would make this skill much more desirable than it currently is. Especially considering how low the damage is on this skill.

Petrify vs Stone Fist
These two skills create a problem for DK's, with CC immunity having a function within this game it is ridiculous to have two separate ranged CC's within the same tier class skill line. Buffing the weaker of the two does not solve the issue of having two skills within the same skill line dedicated to the same general function. One should be changed to serve a different function and here would be the opportunity to add a ranged DOT.

Magma Armor
Magma Shell is far to weak of a shield especially when players can take Barrier from the support skill line and get far more than 100% health absorb. Corrosive has been broken since DB giving no significant penetration and only limiting incoming damage in PVE. The only thing this Ult is used for now is as a short survivability boost for tanks in 4 man dungeons. Corrosive only needs to be fixed, while Magma Shell needs to be adjusted to give a desirable function, perhaps boosting the shield or providing some other group buff.

Shifting Standard
Who uses this? Seriously, its buggy and the damage isn't great. Major Defile is only useful in PVP and Major Defile on a 200 cost ult that has to be constant recast isn't very useful.

Fiery Grip
Very unreliable which as led to most players ignoring this skill. Here is another excellent option for a ranged DOT, one morph could pull the other could tether you to the player burning them for "X" damage over 10s. Unpurgable but broken if the target moves more than 30m from the caster.

Hardened Armor
The shield is inconsequential even after the buff, it is too small and does not last long enough. Why not give this Minor Protection for 6s or maybe Minor Ward and Resolve on top of the Major buff.

Reflective Scale
As many have articulated already this is weakened even more every patch. 100% reflect is powerful and I personally would much rather a 20-30% reflect chance over a longer duration. However this skill is perfect not only in animation and appearance but also in position for a Major Expedition buff.

Noxious Breath
Increase the direct upfront damage on this skill and shorten the DOT component to 5 seconds.

forzajuve212 · January 2017

Armitas wrote: »

forzajuve212 wrote: »

I seriously think people are flipping out way too much on ZOS right now...

We're getting some significant buffs. Is the coag blood change the most ideal? No. Is hitting a 17k crit coag blood in PVP on PTS vs the regular 3-4k on live a buff? Yes, for me it is. Anything they are giving us right now is better than the current live coag blood. Although I still agree with many of you that it will be unreliable in the scenario where you are getting ganked and have 100% max magicka and low health. But come on now.... calling it a nerf is actually ridiculous. If you've tested it on PTS, coag blood is hitting so much harder than the current live version, in no way shape or form is this a nerf. Even at 75% or 50% magicka, I was hitting 7-10k+ coag bloods, so the argument that you need to be at 10% max magicka for this to actually heal is incorrect. It still hits harder than on live even with a large magicka pool left.

I think its a mistake to analyze the value of cDB quantitatively. It has to be analyzed qualitatively. 17k cDB crit represents 1 step out of the grave. The amount of missing magicka that is required for it to heal that much puts the DK at certain death. In reality even self buffed with the 8% extra healing cDB will not compete with Blessing of Restoration until 60-61% missing magicka. 1 meteor battle roar can give you 11,000 magicka and can easily turn your heal into a dud. It is extraordinarily unreliable both in the beginning and in the middle of the fight and forces you to waste magicka to get it to work. It's not just battle roars and ganks we have to worry about. Many DK's are wearing sustain trigger sets like desert rose that they can't turn off. Imo it is the most ill conceived self described buff I have ever seen in a game. It is like giving with one hand and slapping with another. They had a plenitude of suggestions to fix it by and they deliberately chose to buff it in a way that would backfire on us.

It's like a car that gets 200miles to the gallon but with the condition that it might not start in the morning when you have to go to work. Who would buy that car?

______
The guy who designed this "buff" doesn't appear to want it to be flatly good. He said on an ESO live that he is ok with it being good for somethings (PvE) and bad for others (PvP). But he doesn't realize it's bad for both and it's been that way for a long time. I talked to one of the few vMOL tanks and he doesn't use either morph. I don't use it when I tank, why would I when burning embers can give me all the heal I need and take me to full while doing damage? It's been bad for a long time but they have just been too hardheaded to realize it. Now cDB is even weaker for tanking, and gDB doesn't provide stam recovery while blocking. Outside of leveling why would I ever slot this in PvE, and why would I trust my life on it in PvP?

Good point, but I would say it is all about perspective and outlook. Overall, does it have many flaws? Yes it does. But the state of coag blood on live is so *** that I can be happy about this heal. Like I said, even with high to medium max magicka left, it is healing for 7k-10k, which is a solid heal IMO. They still need to address the situation that both you and I agree with, which is when you are at 100% max magicka but with low health. If they properly address this problem, then I think we can both agree that this can be considered a buff.

Armitas · January 2017

forzajuve212 wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

forzajuve212 wrote: »

I seriously think people are flipping out way too much on ZOS right now...

We're getting some significant buffs. Is the coag blood change the most ideal? No. Is hitting a 17k crit coag blood in PVP on PTS vs the regular 3-4k on live a buff? Yes, for me it is. Anything they are giving us right now is better than the current live coag blood. Although I still agree with many of you that it will be unreliable in the scenario where you are getting ganked and have 100% max magicka and low health. But come on now.... calling it a nerf is actually ridiculous. If you've tested it on PTS, coag blood is hitting so much harder than the current live version, in no way shape or form is this a nerf. Even at 75% or 50% magicka, I was hitting 7-10k+ coag bloods, so the argument that you need to be at 10% max magicka for this to actually heal is incorrect. It still hits harder than on live even with a large magicka pool left.

I think its a mistake to analyze the value of cDB quantitatively. It has to be analyzed qualitatively. 17k cDB crit represents 1 step out of the grave. The amount of missing magicka that is required for it to heal that much puts the DK at certain death. In reality even self buffed with the 8% extra healing cDB will not compete with Blessing of Restoration until 60-61% missing magicka. 1 meteor battle roar can give you 11,000 magicka and can easily turn your heal into a dud. It is extraordinarily unreliable both in the beginning and in the middle of the fight and forces you to waste magicka to get it to work. It's not just battle roars and ganks we have to worry about. Many DK's are wearing sustain trigger sets like desert rose that they can't turn off. Imo it is the most ill conceived self described buff I have ever seen in a game. It is like giving with one hand and slapping with another. They had a plenitude of suggestions to fix it by and they deliberately chose to buff it in a way that would backfire on us.

It's like a car that gets 200miles to the gallon but with the condition that it might not start in the morning when you have to go to work. Who would buy that car?

______
The guy who designed this "buff" doesn't appear to want it to be flatly good. He said on an ESO live that he is ok with it being good for somethings (PvE) and bad for others (PvP). But he doesn't realize it's bad for both and it's been that way for a long time. I talked to one of the few vMOL tanks and he doesn't use either morph. I don't use it when I tank, why would I when burning embers can give me all the heal I need and take me to full while doing damage? It's been bad for a long time but they have just been too hardheaded to realize it. Now cDB is even weaker for tanking, and gDB doesn't provide stam recovery while blocking. Outside of leveling why would I ever slot this in PvE, and why would I trust my life on it in PvP?

Good point, but I would say it is all about perspective and outlook. Overall, does it have many flaws? Yes it does. But the state of coag blood on live is so *** that I can be happy about this heal. Like I said, even with high to medium max magicka left, it is healing for 7k-10k, which is a solid heal IMO. They still need to address the situation that both you and I agree with, which is when you are at 100% max magicka but with low health. If they properly address this problem, then I think we can both agree that this can be considered a buff.

100% agree.

pieratsos · January 2017

Berenhir wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Wings still reflect frags, flares and completely shut down whole classes, e.g. ranged magblades - no strife no scourge no impale.
I don't understand the pathetic whining, especially with all the buffs mDKs got this patch.

When will you be satisfied? mDKs have monstrous utility in melee range and happily reflect block or shield everything outside talon range. You got froststaff tanking, heavily increased damage, max magicka on black rose, huge leap damage increase and might possibly get another burst heal with reredesigned dragon blood some time soon while damage spikes from proccing opponents have been nerfed significantly.

If chains now turnout to work properly, good mDKs will be completely overpowered in PvP.

I guess u have never played mDK right?

No, wrong. I played mDK a lot since OT dropped. Maybe I am not clueless and just have a different opinion?

If u have played mDK then u should know that scales are so buggy that people completely removed them from their bars. Now they cant even reflect crushing shock which makes them even worse. They are not countering anything now. The only thing u counter with scales are people stupid enough to spam projectiles on u. Chains simply have no place on the DK bar and this is not going to change. The only way its going to be used is if it stuns people like shield charge or toppling charge and thats what people suggested. But no, they chose to buff the most useless buff on the most useless skill and expect it to be better. The huge leap dmg increase is still less dmg than dawnbreaker so how is that a buff? Every other change u mentioned are buffs to magicka classes in general. And they actually affect mDK even less cause DKs do not really play with destro staves. The main issue is that they fail to see what the actual issues are. People did not ask for dmg buffs, did not ask for mobility buffs and did not ask for useless buffs on abilities that will never be used.
Literally the only buff that people were actually hoping for is to make dragon blood a reliable heal. People suggested a million different ways to change it but somehow they chose the one that no one suggested or wanted and made the skill so complicated and situational that we have no idea if its going to be good or worse than now.