Is the game being designed to force people to use the Crown Store?

NewBlacksmurf · January 2017

Yes.

STEVIL wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

The TG assistant is locked behind dlc
It doesn't matter IF the assistant is used or desired.

Literally it can only be accessed IF you sub or buy crowns.

So therefore in terms of the context of this thread and the OP and the person you tagged.

The poll response is YES because you are "forced" to buy crowns or sub to get access to the dlc which contains the added assistant.

Okay, so, there's two separate questions wandering through all of this:

Does the game require you to spend real money in order to access premium content that is not part of the base game?

Does the game force you to spend real money?

On the first question... yeah, kinda. I mean, that's how DLC works. Of course, at the same time, notice how many people were actually upset when the last wave of new stuff was available to everyone, and not a DLC.

At the same time, it is entirely possible for free players to gain access to some DLC content, like crafted sets, if they're aided by someone who is a subscriber or owns the DLC. And, again, it feels like the complaints on this front are cherry picked because, there have been updates and new features that are available to non-subscribers. Not everything goes into a system that is cash gated.

Does the game force you to do so? And, before you protest this, that is implied in the original question. With housing, that's a no. With One Tamriel... no. With some DLC sets? No. It's more convenient, but it isn't mandatory. Now if you want the BoP sets from a DLC zone, then you'd need to go in there yourself. Ironically, even this isn't an automatic statement. If you're after a DLC monster helm you can (theoretically) wait for The Golden to carry it, and buy it for free.

If you simply want to know if you have to pay money to access paid content, then yes. But, at that point the original question becomes seriously misleading. So, no, you're not forced to do anything on this subject. Enticed? Sure. Look at all these goodies you get. But you're not forced.

@starkerealm

Im reading all these comments and so many after the first page have jumped off onto their own ideas.

Just read the OP. It's not two questions.
Itsone simple question that is responded to as yes or no.

"Added features" is the context. And they even give examples which when looking at where and how to obtain "added features" it does require you to buy or sub and both result in crowns.

The answer is always yes because no one can access any "added features" without paying for a sub or buying crowns. The crown store is if someone decides not to sub but wants acces to added features. Some added features aren't accessible without a sub.

So if anyone is playing the vanilla game minus some of the base game added features which are locked behind a sub or dlc, it's no.

It's really that simple. Don't confuse the question because you can't get it otherwise.

Now as time passes u may be able to access some items but that's not the topic. It's features.

I think i made the question too complicated because i doubt they are all unsubbed and with no DLC.

They just don't get what you explained... but some are sure ready to fight over something they do not understand. :-)

there is a difference between understanding and agreeing.

do i understand the op? yes.

do i agree with it (or the convoluted 'explanations' since)? no.

Sure it can be that. I take it you did not sub or buy Crowns yet?

Or if you did it was purely to support the game not because you wanted to have access to something thus being forced to buy it.

Anyway somebody should make a better poll.

Sorry to bust your bubble but, yesterday i bought pizza but papa johns did not force me to do so by offering it.

i have subbed since day 1 and bought extra crowns and bought things from the store and will continue but in spite of how that gets construed between your ears that in no way means the game was built to force me to do those things - well, outside of the early period when sub or else no game.

Choosing to buy something and being forced to buy something are very very different, just like engaging in relations with someone by choice and being forced to do so are very different things to with substantially different repercussions.

They are pointing out (using your example) that you can't get pizza unless you pay for pizza.

In context to the game....you are a subscriber by choice which results in access to the added features which can only be experienced by a sub or buying crowns.

The point is, if you never spent any money on crowns or a sub, you would be forced to buy one or the other for the access to added features.

Regardless of how ppl feel about how the OP was written, you either pay to play or you don't pay and there play limited excluding many added features.

Unsent.Soul · January 2017

No.

STEVIL wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

The TG assistant is locked behind dlc
It doesn't matter IF the assistant is used or desired.

Literally it can only be accessed IF you sub or buy crowns.

So therefore in terms of the context of this thread and the OP and the person you tagged.

The poll response is YES because you are "forced" to buy crowns or sub to get access to the dlc which contains the added assistant.

Okay, so, there's two separate questions wandering through all of this:

Does the game require you to spend real money in order to access premium content that is not part of the base game?

Does the game force you to spend real money?

On the first question... yeah, kinda. I mean, that's how DLC works. Of course, at the same time, notice how many people were actually upset when the last wave of new stuff was available to everyone, and not a DLC.

At the same time, it is entirely possible for free players to gain access to some DLC content, like crafted sets, if they're aided by someone who is a subscriber or owns the DLC. And, again, it feels like the complaints on this front are cherry picked because, there have been updates and new features that are available to non-subscribers. Not everything goes into a system that is cash gated.

Does the game force you to do so? And, before you protest this, that is implied in the original question. With housing, that's a no. With One Tamriel... no. With some DLC sets? No. It's more convenient, but it isn't mandatory. Now if you want the BoP sets from a DLC zone, then you'd need to go in there yourself. Ironically, even this isn't an automatic statement. If you're after a DLC monster helm you can (theoretically) wait for The Golden to carry it, and buy it for free.

If you simply want to know if you have to pay money to access paid content, then yes. But, at that point the original question becomes seriously misleading. So, no, you're not forced to do anything on this subject. Enticed? Sure. Look at all these goodies you get. But you're not forced.

@starkerealm

Im reading all these comments and so many after the first page have jumped off onto their own ideas.

Just read the OP. It's not two questions.
Itsone simple question that is responded to as yes or no.

"Added features" is the context. And they even give examples which when looking at where and how to obtain "added features" it does require you to buy or sub and both result in crowns.

The answer is always yes because no one can access any "added features" without paying for a sub or buying crowns. The crown store is if someone decides not to sub but wants acces to added features. Some added features aren't accessible without a sub.

So if anyone is playing the vanilla game minus some of the base game added features which are locked behind a sub or dlc, it's no.

It's really that simple. Don't confuse the question because you can't get it otherwise.

Now as time passes u may be able to access some items but that's not the topic. It's features.

I think i made the question too complicated because i doubt they are all unsubbed and with no DLC.

They just don't get what you explained... but some are sure ready to fight over something they do not understand. :-)

there is a difference between understanding and agreeing.

do i understand the op? yes.

do i agree with it (or the convoluted 'explanations' since)? no.

Sure it can be that. I take it you did not sub or buy Crowns yet?

Or if you did it was purely to support the game not because you wanted to have access to something thus being forced to buy it.

Anyway somebody should make a better poll.

Sorry to bust your bubble but, yesterday i bought pizza but papa johns did not force me to do so by offering it.

i have subbed since day 1 and bought extra crowns and bought things from the store and will continue but in spite of how that gets construed between your ears that in no way means the game was built to force me to do those things - well, outside of the early period when sub or else no game.

Choosing to buy something and being forced to buy something are very very different, just like engaging in relations with someone by choice and being forced to do so are very different things to with substantially different repercussions.

Why would you not tell us what type of pizza you ordered?

starkerealm · January 2017

No.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

You're trying to change the context.

Not really.

The question, in case you forgot, was: "Is the game being designed to force people to use the Crown Store?"

You've been trying to warp that into, "are there benefits available exclusively to subscribers?" Which, yes, there are exclusive perks for subscribers. But you're not forced to purchase them. The game is entirely playable, and even gets updates, if you never spend a dime after buying the box. So, to answer the question that was actually asked, then no. However, you've spent pages, trying to re-contextualize all of the added content as necessary, and as a result compulsory. Which, you know, it's not.

wolfydog · January 2017

Nah I don't think so at this time. Everything with housing is totally optional. Unless something changed they don't even offer storage. Its really just having a house and making it look nice or crappy if that interests you.

I don't mind the monthly sub so I get my crowns every month. I usually buy crowns separately once or twice a year when they go on sale too.

I've also been playing since beta, I have max level characters, I don't really need extra exp and things like that for more aa's and things.

MAybe if I was a new player starting now I'd be more tempted but im not.

Plus when new DLC comes out itll be easy to make some fast money like always and buy what you want. Right now I feel its harder to make more gold just playing regular cause theres just nothing new in the game.

Mx13 · January 2017

Iselin wrote: »

Mx13 wrote: »

You dont need "tons of purple and gold upgrade mats to make one cup for your table in your house" tho, you need like 3-6 purple mats for epic quality furniture and besides the master writ vendor stuff you dont need legendary mats.

Who told you that? The master writs do require legendary mats before you even get a voucher to get at the recipes and items from that vendor.

Sorry, my english is kinda bad,

What i meant to say is that only the master writ vendor stuff (like the skeleton) requires gold mats,
There are 1,003 furniture pieces that you can craft without legendary mats:

Dominoid wrote: »

This lists the crafting station the item is located under, the furniture category within that crafting station, all the ingredients, the requirements to craft the item, among other data.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Zjp0byRyjqQAopZhcWqConJsQiVZQQqH4fxo22qxJc8/edit?usp=sharing

Enjoy

AlMcFly · January 2017

I do not know.

Reykice wrote: »

So here is my logic: everything they add now is so hard to get in the game...

Not really. Not many activities in this game are "hard" per say. Most just require you to do them for a long time, aka grind. Grind =/= Hard

Reykice wrote: »

they figured out that if they make it really hard to get in the game people will use the easy way and buy it.

This isn't that hard to figure out. It's a principle of human nature that has existed in our species for...oh...probably several thousand years. If you have money, buying something is much quicker than working for it. Freakin' rocket science.

Reykice wrote: »

This will impact every design decision from now on if it works

Assertion. Slippery Slope. Claim to know the previously stated assertion will influence every game decision in the future, without first proving that previous assertion to be factual in the specific case of ZOS and ESO.

Reykice wrote: »

Basically they are trying to make as much money as they can

...and there is nothing inherently wrong with this.

Reykice wrote: »

at what point do you start questioning if they should also look at ethics

There is nothing unethical about making a product the way they want to make it, and sell it. If people buy it, the product is successful. That's the market baby.

Reykice wrote: »

and look at making the game better

Subjective. Biased. Opinion.

Reykice wrote: »

regardless of the "for profit" reason.

Assertion. False claim to know 100% of the reason for decisions made.

Reykice wrote: »

The largest MMO, WOW, got so rich first because it had a lot of subscribers and those people stayed subscribed because for its time the game was good.

Assertions. False claim as to the one single reason why WOW was successful.

Reykice wrote: »

I`d like ESO to focus on that

I too would like ZOS to make the game "better"

Reykice wrote: »

and less on "let`s see how much money we can squeeze out of people".

Again, assertion.

Reykice wrote: »

Subscribing should be enough

Enough for what? To keep the game from closing down? Do you have figures/reports that show how many subscribers ESO does have? and how much revenue they make from subscribers versus in-game cash shop sales? Do they even make "revenue" off of subscribers? Or is it more realistic that the revenue would not exist without cash shop sales also in the mix. I'm inclined to believe the latter.

Also, subscribing IS "enough" for some people.

Reykice wrote: »

but at the current crown prices they are pushing you to buy a lot more if you expect to keep up with the things they add.

What do you need to "keep up" with? Is this a race? A competition? If your neighbor has more stuff than you, are you losing? If you have ESO Plus, I don't see anything in the cash shop that is required for you to play all content in the game. I buy cash shop items, not because I'm forced to, but because I WANT to. I take full responsibility for my purchases. I don't purchase cash shop items, then turn around and blame ZOS for it, as if I wasn't 100% in control of my own actions.

starkerealm · January 2017

No.

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

You are not thinking large scale here.

No, you're not thinking like a player. No one is going to be running the equipment master writs. Probably not the enchanting one either. It's going to be the alchemy writs, and possibly the provisioning ones that'll get the attention for pulling vouchers. Because, shockingly, those don't use incredibly rare materials. (Unless provisioning's going to be asking for perfect roe recipes.)

No sane player is going to be throwing 8 legendary upgrade mats at a couple vouchers, unless their payout is exceedingly good,

starkerealm · January 2017

No.

AlMcFly wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

The largest MMO, WOW, got so rich first because it had a lot of subscribers and those people stayed subscribed because for its time the game was good.

Assertions. False claim as to the one single reason why WOW was successful.

Fun Trivia: WoW was a trainwreck at launch. ESO in its current state is significantly better than where WoW was at at this point in its life cycle. If we accept the assertion that, quality alone is what kept WoW going, and compare to ESO's current state, we have nothing to worry about. Of course, that assertion and the resulting logic is hilariously flawed, but, figured it was worth remembering.

Iselin · January 2017

Yes.

starkerealm wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

You are not thinking large scale here.

No, you're not thinking like a player. No one is going to be running the equipment master writs. Probably not the enchanting one either. It's going to be the alchemy writs, and possibly the provisioning ones that'll get the attention for pulling vouchers. Because, shockingly, those don't use incredibly rare materials. (Unless provisioning's going to be asking for perfect roe recipes.)

No sane player is going to be throwing 8 legendary upgrade mats at a couple vouchers, unless their payout is exceedingly good,

And you're either not thinking or not aware that each master writ completion awards you a different amount of vouchers depending on the type and rarity of the requirements. So far on the PTS the highest we've seen is 250+ for legendary armor/weapons with the nirn trait and part of a set from a DLC location.

Also you're not thinking that those items that you could buy from the master writ vendor with vouchers will also be either in the crown store or crown crates.

As the insanity of acquiring something by playing the game increases, so does the appeal of buying it in the cash shop. That's just cash shop 101.

lexior12 · January 2017

No.

All stuff in the crown store isn't needed,it's All additional stuff.No way is that pay to win.As for the houses,if there are other ways in game to get them then buying them from the crown store is the easy way,not at all being forced to buy them.God forbid somebody works to get something....yes even in a video game.

Iselin · January 2017

Yes.

lexior12 wrote: »

All stuff in the crown store isn't needed,it's All additional stuff.No way is that pay to win.As for the houses,if there are other ways in game to get them then buying them from the crown store is the easy way,not at all being forced to buy them.God forbid somebody works to get something....yes even in a video game.

Everything in the cash shop is not wanted by all. As long as we're one of those who don't want cosmetics and convenience we don't care what's in the cash shop.

Housing furnishings may just very well change that since, I suspect, many will want their house(s) to have things in them instead of empty and those things are being made deliberately much harder to get than , for example, armor and weapons, in order to steer more toward the cash shop. A bow with the impenetrable trait is very easy for anyone to make... much easier than a decorative chest.

"Force" is too strong a word and people hate being forced to do anything. A smart salesman will steer you, not force you.

starkerealm · January 2017

No.

Iselin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

You are not thinking large scale here.

No, you're not thinking like a player. No one is going to be running the equipment master writs. Probably not the enchanting one either. It's going to be the alchemy writs, and possibly the provisioning ones that'll get the attention for pulling vouchers. Because, shockingly, those don't use incredibly rare materials. (Unless provisioning's going to be asking for perfect roe recipes.)

No sane player is going to be throwing 8 legendary upgrade mats at a couple vouchers, unless their payout is exceedingly good,

And you're either not thinking or not aware that each master writ completion awards you a different amount of vouchers depending on the type and rarity of the requirements. So far on the PTS the highest we've seen is 250+ for legendary armor/weapons with the nirn trait and part of a set from a DLC location.

Also you're not thinking that those items that you could buy from the master writ vendor with vouchers will also be either in the crown store or crown crates.

As the insanity of acquiring something by playing the game increases, so does the appeal of buying it in the cash shop. That's just cash shop 101.

Last I checked, the master writs were only paying out with one voucher. If you're getting 250 vouchers for turning in a gold dagger or whatever, then, yeah... I could see someone doing that. Since it would (nearly) pay for a full set of the Ebony Motif. At which point... that's not going to be that massive a strain on the economy, overall.

Now, if you're telling me, people are going to be buying their tempers from the cash shop... please, by all means, let me know where you pick those up.

Honestly, if the master writs are pointing you towards DLC stations, and you don't have ESO+ or the appropriate DLC, bug report it. That's probably not intentional behavior, given how the pledges have been changed.

Iselin · January 2017

Yes.

starkerealm wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

You are not thinking large scale here.

No, you're not thinking like a player. No one is going to be running the equipment master writs. Probably not the enchanting one either. It's going to be the alchemy writs, and possibly the provisioning ones that'll get the attention for pulling vouchers. Because, shockingly, those don't use incredibly rare materials. (Unless provisioning's going to be asking for perfect roe recipes.)

No sane player is going to be throwing 8 legendary upgrade mats at a couple vouchers, unless their payout is exceedingly good,

And you're either not thinking or not aware that each master writ completion awards you a different amount of vouchers depending on the type and rarity of the requirements. So far on the PTS the highest we've seen is 250+ for legendary armor/weapons with the nirn trait and part of a set from a DLC location.

Also you're not thinking that those items that you could buy from the master writ vendor with vouchers will also be either in the crown store or crown crates.

As the insanity of acquiring something by playing the game increases, so does the appeal of buying it in the cash shop. That's just cash shop 101.

Last I checked, the master writs were only paying out with one voucher. If you're getting 250 vouchers for turning in a gold dagger or whatever, then, yeah... I could see someone doing that. Since it would (nearly) pay for a full set of the Ebony Motif. At which point... that's not going to be that massive a strain on the economy, overall.

Now, if you're telling me, people are going to be buying their tempers from the cash shop... please, by all means, let me know where you pick those up.

Honestly, if the master writs are pointing you towards DLC stations, and you don't have ESO+ or the appropriate DLC, bug report it. That's probably not intentional behavior, given how the pledges have been changed.

Yeah well check again

And no as far as I know tempers are not going to be sold in the cash shop (not yet anyway but we're heading that way.) So you're either not getting the relationship between something being exceedingly grindy in the game driving cash shop sales or you're just pretending not to... I suspect it's the later.

Elsonso · January 2017

Yes.

.

STEVIL wrote: »

Sorry to bust your bubble but, yesterday i bought pizza but papa johns did not force me to do so by offering it.

This made me laugh because I thought of this...

If Bethesda/ZOS were in charge of pizza, we could buy a sausage or pepperoni Crown Pizza directly from them, cooked, for about $50, or we could make our own pepperoni pizza and cook it. We would have to build our own oven, would require that we scour the planet for rare parts. After that, we would have to farm the ingredients, which would amount to a single slice of pepperoni or a strand of shredded cheese per day. Alternately, we could buy a pizza from someone else for roughly $1.8 million.

FLuFFyxMuFFiN · January 2017

No.

lordrichter wrote: »

.

STEVIL wrote: »

Sorry to bust your bubble but, yesterday i bought pizza but papa johns did not force me to do so by offering it.

This made me laugh because I thought of this...

If Bethesda/ZOS were in charge of pizza, we could buy a sausage or pepperoni Crown Pizza directly from them, cooked, for about $50, or we could make our own pepperoni pizza and cook it. We would have to build our own oven, would require that we scour the planet for rare parts. After that, we would have to farm the ingredients, which would amount to a single slice of pepperoni or a strand of shredded cheese per day. Alternately, we could buy a pizza from someone else for roughly $1.8 million.

Idk man I think it would be more efficient to just build a fire than search for parts to make an oven

starkerealm · January 2017

No.

Iselin wrote: »

And no as far as I know tempers are not going to be sold in the cash shop (not yet anyway but we're heading that way.) So you're either not getting the relationship between something being exceedingly grindy in the game driving cash shop sales or you're just pretending not to... I suspect it's the later.

Or I understand that, simply by creating a need, you don't automatically start selling something if you don't make it available.

If ZOS was selling tempers, then you'd have a point. "Oh, look, they're putting pressure on the market to get people to buy them." But, you can't buy any of the things you get with vouchers. Maybe the Ebony Motif at some point. But, unless they're selling the crafting stations... that's not an option.

It doesn't drive people to the store, if you're not selling what you drove the demand up for.

Seriously. I understand the idea behind F2P games that lock things behind horrific grind routes, and then turn around and let you buy your way past. That's a problem. But, if there's no way to buy your way past these barriers, it's not about using the grind to push you towards buying stuff.

Again, if ZOS doesn't sell it, you can't buy it. If you can't buy it, then promoting grind is about keeping players in the game, working towards goals, not about lining your own pockets directly.

Stovahkiin · January 2017

No.

*sigh* And let me guess, Zeni somehow forced all of you to buy the game by dangling it in front of you and saying that it's fun, right? Since having a lack of intelligence and willpower is now apparently the same as being forced to do things.

Iselin · January 2017

Yes.

starkerealm wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

And no as far as I know tempers are not going to be sold in the cash shop (not yet anyway but we're heading that way.) So you're either not getting the relationship between something being exceedingly grindy in the game driving cash shop sales or you're just pretending not to... I suspect it's the later.

Or I understand that, simply by creating a need, you don't automatically start selling something if you don't make it available.

If ZOS was selling tempers, then you'd have a point. "Oh, look, they're putting pressure on the market to get people to buy them." But, you can't buy any of the things you get with vouchers. Maybe the Ebony Motif at some point. But, unless they're selling the crafting stations... that's not an option.

It doesn't drive people to the store, if you're not selling what you drove the demand up for.

Seriously. I understand the idea behind F2P games that lock things behind horrific grind routes, and then turn around and let you buy your way past. That's a problem. But, if there's no way to buy your way past these barriers, it's not about using the grind to push you towards buying stuff.

Again, if ZOS doesn't sell it, you can't buy it. If you can't buy it, then promoting grind is about keeping players in the game, working towards goals, not about lining your own pockets directly.

Maybe you shouldn't assume that furnishings, which are the end goal of using those tempers, are not going to be sold in the cash shop. Selling or not selling tempers is irrelevant when they're just a means to an end.

Furnishing sales is not on the PTS... yet. But what IS in the PTS is the ability to buy a house from the cash shop FURNISHED... that extra cost is just adding a furnishings bundle and selling that instead of piece by piece.

And you can bet that "piece by piece" will also be sold either directly or through inclusion in crown crates or both.

JimT722 · January 2017

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

AzuraKin wrote: »

yes, while its true you get crowns for subbing, at best you can buy 2 - 4 items of crown store. eso is slowly going the way of all other mmo's with crown store. play swtor and you will quickly see, if you not sub in swtor, you gonna have huge issues playing the game from not being having the best gear, to less inventory space, less gold, ect. every mmo i have played, has around the 2nd to 3rd year mark started becoming focused heavily on pushing crown store over content.

I have never played SWTOR, but I have heard enough about it to know that this is nothing like SWTOR. SWTOR lets you get gear you can only use if you sub. In ESO, there is no teasing. If you can get it, you can wear it forever. In ESO, if you want to grind out gear in DLC zones, sub one month and take a 4 week staycation.

Having played SWTOR, many of the additions of late in ESO reminds my heavily of it, mainly dye stamps and crown crates. This game isn't completely F2P though, and isn't as restrictive. I hope they never go completely F2P, otherwise it may be.

The focus of ESO now is to get as many people spending in the crown store as possible, and all future content is likely going to attempt to motivate people to do just that.

starkerealm · January 2017

No.

Iselin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

And no as far as I know tempers are not going to be sold in the cash shop (not yet anyway but we're heading that way.) So you're either not getting the relationship between something being exceedingly grindy in the game driving cash shop sales or you're just pretending not to... I suspect it's the later.

Or I understand that, simply by creating a need, you don't automatically start selling something if you don't make it available.

If ZOS was selling tempers, then you'd have a point. "Oh, look, they're putting pressure on the market to get people to buy them." But, you can't buy any of the things you get with vouchers. Maybe the Ebony Motif at some point. But, unless they're selling the crafting stations... that's not an option.

It doesn't drive people to the store, if you're not selling what you drove the demand up for.

Seriously. I understand the idea behind F2P games that lock things behind horrific grind routes, and then turn around and let you buy your way past. That's a problem. But, if there's no way to buy your way past these barriers, it's not about using the grind to push you towards buying stuff.

Again, if ZOS doesn't sell it, you can't buy it. If you can't buy it, then promoting grind is about keeping players in the game, working towards goals, not about lining your own pockets directly.

Maybe you shouldn't assume that furnishings, which are the end goal of using those tempers, are not going to be sold in the cash shop. Selling or not selling tempers is irrelevant when they're just a means to an end.

Furnishing sales is not on the PTS... yet. But what IS in the PTS is the ability to buy a house from the cash shop FURNISHED... that extra cost is just adding a furnishings bundle and selling that instead of piece by piece.

And you can bet that "piece by piece" will also be sold either directly or through inclusion in crown crates or both.

Assuming the version presented on the PTS is what goes live... furniture is sold directly through the housing interface. Pieces range from 50 crowns up to 400. Thing is, I can't remember seeing any gold furniture in the list of stuff they were selling. Now, that could change, obviously. But, it was mostly white through blue, with a few purple pieces (the ones running for 400). Also, I'm not 100% certain, but I think most of that was also available via crafting. The ones you buy get marked with a crown icon in the interface.

Now, they probably will add furniture to future crown crates, but... I'm not seeing anything in that entire system, aside from the attunable stations and the DPS dummies that will really compel players to cough up cash for them unless they have really limited self control.

Iselin · January 2017

Yes.

starkerealm wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

And no as far as I know tempers are not going to be sold in the cash shop (not yet anyway but we're heading that way.) So you're either not getting the relationship between something being exceedingly grindy in the game driving cash shop sales or you're just pretending not to... I suspect it's the later.

Or I understand that, simply by creating a need, you don't automatically start selling something if you don't make it available.

If ZOS was selling tempers, then you'd have a point. "Oh, look, they're putting pressure on the market to get people to buy them." But, you can't buy any of the things you get with vouchers. Maybe the Ebony Motif at some point. But, unless they're selling the crafting stations... that's not an option.

It doesn't drive people to the store, if you're not selling what you drove the demand up for.

Seriously. I understand the idea behind F2P games that lock things behind horrific grind routes, and then turn around and let you buy your way past. That's a problem. But, if there's no way to buy your way past these barriers, it's not about using the grind to push you towards buying stuff.

Again, if ZOS doesn't sell it, you can't buy it. If you can't buy it, then promoting grind is about keeping players in the game, working towards goals, not about lining your own pockets directly.

Maybe you shouldn't assume that furnishings, which are the end goal of using those tempers, are not going to be sold in the cash shop. Selling or not selling tempers is irrelevant when they're just a means to an end.

Furnishing sales is not on the PTS... yet. But what IS in the PTS is the ability to buy a house from the cash shop FURNISHED... that extra cost is just adding a furnishings bundle and selling that instead of piece by piece.

And you can bet that "piece by piece" will also be sold either directly or through inclusion in crown crates or both.

Assuming the version presented on the PTS is what goes live... furniture is sold directly through the housing interface. Pieces range from 50 crowns up to 400. Thing is, I can't remember seeing any gold furniture in the list of stuff they were selling. Now, that could change, obviously. But, it was mostly white through blue, with a few purple pieces (the ones running for 400). Also, I'm not 100% certain, but I think most of that was also available via crafting. The ones you buy get marked with a crown icon in the interface.

Now, they probably will add furniture to future crown crates, but... I'm not seeing anything in that entire system, aside from the attunable stations and the DPS dummies that will really compel players to cough up cash for them unless they have really limited self control.

Well like I already said, good salesmen never make you think they're forcing you. They just steer you in certain directions.

I was really looking forward to housing but the grind for getting the things in it that most appeal to me: attunable crafting stations, the target skeleton and crafting furnishings, are totally turning me off to the whole thing.

starkerealm · January 2017

No.

Iselin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

And no as far as I know tempers are not going to be sold in the cash shop (not yet anyway but we're heading that way.) So you're either not getting the relationship between something being exceedingly grindy in the game driving cash shop sales or you're just pretending not to... I suspect it's the later.

Or I understand that, simply by creating a need, you don't automatically start selling something if you don't make it available.

If ZOS was selling tempers, then you'd have a point. "Oh, look, they're putting pressure on the market to get people to buy them." But, you can't buy any of the things you get with vouchers. Maybe the Ebony Motif at some point. But, unless they're selling the crafting stations... that's not an option.

It doesn't drive people to the store, if you're not selling what you drove the demand up for.

Seriously. I understand the idea behind F2P games that lock things behind horrific grind routes, and then turn around and let you buy your way past. That's a problem. But, if there's no way to buy your way past these barriers, it's not about using the grind to push you towards buying stuff.

Again, if ZOS doesn't sell it, you can't buy it. If you can't buy it, then promoting grind is about keeping players in the game, working towards goals, not about lining your own pockets directly.

Maybe you shouldn't assume that furnishings, which are the end goal of using those tempers, are not going to be sold in the cash shop. Selling or not selling tempers is irrelevant when they're just a means to an end.

Furnishing sales is not on the PTS... yet. But what IS in the PTS is the ability to buy a house from the cash shop FURNISHED... that extra cost is just adding a furnishings bundle and selling that instead of piece by piece.

And you can bet that "piece by piece" will also be sold either directly or through inclusion in crown crates or both.

Assuming the version presented on the PTS is what goes live... furniture is sold directly through the housing interface. Pieces range from 50 crowns up to 400. Thing is, I can't remember seeing any gold furniture in the list of stuff they were selling. Now, that could change, obviously. But, it was mostly white through blue, with a few purple pieces (the ones running for 400). Also, I'm not 100% certain, but I think most of that was also available via crafting. The ones you buy get marked with a crown icon in the interface.

Now, they probably will add furniture to future crown crates, but... I'm not seeing anything in that entire system, aside from the attunable stations and the DPS dummies that will really compel players to cough up cash for them unless they have really limited self control.

Well like I already said, good salesmen never make you think they're forcing you. They just steer you in certain directions.

I was really looking forward to housing but the grind for getting the things in it that most appeal to me: attunable crafting stations, the target skeleton and crafting furnishings, are totally turning me off to the whole thing.

Marketing is about creating a need, then providing a means to satisfy it. Yeah, I know. Which is why I'm saying, if you're not offering an out, you're not selling anything. We're talking about marketing, not sorcery here.

Also, look, if you want the rare stuff in this game, you're going to need to grind. Nothing has changed. That's been true of getting yellow gear from the beginning. That was true of the V16 gear when it was added. That was true of the Glass Motif... oh god, the Glass Motif. That was true of the monster sets for a long time (still is, if you want the BIS traits). It's been true of the XP pots, and more true of the Aetheric versions.

MMOs include a lot of grind. It's part of the genre, and dates back to when your only options were to subscribe or not. The grind was about keeping people in the games and playing back then. And that hasn't really changed. If ZOS was letting people skirt around the grind by coughing up cash, then that would be one thing. They're only doing that with the cosmetic crap. Not the stuff that's actually valuable and useful.

EDIT: Hell, if you hated the idea of grind, have you seen the threads on vMA grinding? Seriously?

Reykice · January 2017

Yes.

Iselin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

You are not thinking large scale here.

No, you're not thinking like a player. No one is going to be running the equipment master writs. Probably not the enchanting one either. It's going to be the alchemy writs, and possibly the provisioning ones that'll get the attention for pulling vouchers. Because, shockingly, those don't use incredibly rare materials. (Unless provisioning's going to be asking for perfect roe recipes.)

No sane player is going to be throwing 8 legendary upgrade mats at a couple vouchers, unless their payout is exceedingly good,

And you're either not thinking or not aware that each master writ completion awards you a different amount of vouchers depending on the type and rarity of the requirements. So far on the PTS the highest we've seen is 250+ for legendary armor/weapons with the nirn trait and part of a set from a DLC location.

Also you're not thinking that those items that you could buy from the master writ vendor with vouchers will also be either in the crown store or crown crates.

As the insanity of acquiring something by playing the game increases, so does the appeal of buying it in the cash shop. That's just cash shop 101.

Last I checked, the master writs were only paying out with one voucher. If you're getting 250 vouchers for turning in a gold dagger or whatever, then, yeah... I could see someone doing that. Since it would (nearly) pay for a full set of the Ebony Motif. At which point... that's not going to be that massive a strain on the economy, overall.

Now, if you're telling me, people are going to be buying their tempers from the cash shop... please, by all means, let me know where you pick those up.

Honestly, if the master writs are pointing you towards DLC stations, and you don't have ESO+ or the appropriate DLC, bug report it. That's probably not intentional behavior, given how the pledges have been changed.

Yeah well check again

And no as far as I know tempers are not going to be sold in the cash shop (not yet anyway but we're heading that way.) So you're either not getting the relationship between something being exceedingly grindy in the game driving cash shop sales or you're just pretending not to... I suspect it's the later.

To be honest if they ever start selling tempers i`m out there has to be a limit of some kind i get that they want money but games in the past made profit with just a sub.

And prices for server maintenance were higher back then....

So ESO has subs and enough cosmetic items that cost as much as 2-3 subs each. Also the gambling thing, crates...

Yet they still need more? Could it be just greed motivating them now and not "we need to keep the servers up".

Iselin · January 2017

Yes.

starkerealm wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

And no as far as I know tempers are not going to be sold in the cash shop (not yet anyway but we're heading that way.) So you're either not getting the relationship between something being exceedingly grindy in the game driving cash shop sales or you're just pretending not to... I suspect it's the later.

Or I understand that, simply by creating a need, you don't automatically start selling something if you don't make it available.

If ZOS was selling tempers, then you'd have a point. "Oh, look, they're putting pressure on the market to get people to buy them." But, you can't buy any of the things you get with vouchers. Maybe the Ebony Motif at some point. But, unless they're selling the crafting stations... that's not an option.

It doesn't drive people to the store, if you're not selling what you drove the demand up for.

Seriously. I understand the idea behind F2P games that lock things behind horrific grind routes, and then turn around and let you buy your way past. That's a problem. But, if there's no way to buy your way past these barriers, it's not about using the grind to push you towards buying stuff.

Again, if ZOS doesn't sell it, you can't buy it. If you can't buy it, then promoting grind is about keeping players in the game, working towards goals, not about lining your own pockets directly.

Maybe you shouldn't assume that furnishings, which are the end goal of using those tempers, are not going to be sold in the cash shop. Selling or not selling tempers is irrelevant when they're just a means to an end.

Furnishing sales is not on the PTS... yet. But what IS in the PTS is the ability to buy a house from the cash shop FURNISHED... that extra cost is just adding a furnishings bundle and selling that instead of piece by piece.

And you can bet that "piece by piece" will also be sold either directly or through inclusion in crown crates or both.

Assuming the version presented on the PTS is what goes live... furniture is sold directly through the housing interface. Pieces range from 50 crowns up to 400. Thing is, I can't remember seeing any gold furniture in the list of stuff they were selling. Now, that could change, obviously. But, it was mostly white through blue, with a few purple pieces (the ones running for 400). Also, I'm not 100% certain, but I think most of that was also available via crafting. The ones you buy get marked with a crown icon in the interface.

Now, they probably will add furniture to future crown crates, but... I'm not seeing anything in that entire system, aside from the attunable stations and the DPS dummies that will really compel players to cough up cash for them unless they have really limited self control.

Well like I already said, good salesmen never make you think they're forcing you. They just steer you in certain directions.

I was really looking forward to housing but the grind for getting the things in it that most appeal to me: attunable crafting stations, the target skeleton and crafting furnishings, are totally turning me off to the whole thing.

Marketing is about creating a need, then providing a means to satisfy it. Yeah, I know. Which is why I'm saying, if you're not offering an out, you're not selling anything. We're talking about marketing, not sorcery here.

Also, look, if you want the rare stuff in this game, you're going to need to grind. Nothing has changed. That's been true of getting yellow gear from the beginning. That was true of the V16 gear when it was added. That was true of the Glass Motif... oh god, the Glass Motif. That was true of the monster sets for a long time (still is, if you want the BIS traits). It's been true of the XP pots, and more true of the Aetheric versions.

MMOs include a lot of grind. It's part of the genre, and dates back to when your only options were to subscribe or not. The grind was about keeping people in the games and playing back then. And that hasn't really changed. If ZOS was letting people skirt around the grind by coughing up cash, then that would be one thing. They're only doing that with the cosmetic crap. Not the stuff that's actually valuable and useful.

EDIT: Hell, if you hated the idea of grind, have you seen the threads on vMA grinding? Seriously?

Yeah I know that we have grind as do all MMORPGs. But games, for good reason, have a mix of not so grindy, grind and very grindy. If everything is a PITA grind, only Koreans will play it

Furnishing crafting takes crafting grind to a whole new level relative to all other crafting in this game.

Iselin · January 2017

Yes.

Reykice wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

You are not thinking large scale here.

No, you're not thinking like a player. No one is going to be running the equipment master writs. Probably not the enchanting one either. It's going to be the alchemy writs, and possibly the provisioning ones that'll get the attention for pulling vouchers. Because, shockingly, those don't use incredibly rare materials. (Unless provisioning's going to be asking for perfect roe recipes.)

No sane player is going to be throwing 8 legendary upgrade mats at a couple vouchers, unless their payout is exceedingly good,

And you're either not thinking or not aware that each master writ completion awards you a different amount of vouchers depending on the type and rarity of the requirements. So far on the PTS the highest we've seen is 250+ for legendary armor/weapons with the nirn trait and part of a set from a DLC location.

Also you're not thinking that those items that you could buy from the master writ vendor with vouchers will also be either in the crown store or crown crates.

As the insanity of acquiring something by playing the game increases, so does the appeal of buying it in the cash shop. That's just cash shop 101.

Last I checked, the master writs were only paying out with one voucher. If you're getting 250 vouchers for turning in a gold dagger or whatever, then, yeah... I could see someone doing that. Since it would (nearly) pay for a full set of the Ebony Motif. At which point... that's not going to be that massive a strain on the economy, overall.

Now, if you're telling me, people are going to be buying their tempers from the cash shop... please, by all means, let me know where you pick those up.

Honestly, if the master writs are pointing you towards DLC stations, and you don't have ESO+ or the appropriate DLC, bug report it. That's probably not intentional behavior, given how the pledges have been changed.

Yeah well check again

And no as far as I know tempers are not going to be sold in the cash shop (not yet anyway but we're heading that way.) So you're either not getting the relationship between something being exceedingly grindy in the game driving cash shop sales or you're just pretending not to... I suspect it's the later.

To be honest if they ever start selling tempers i`m out there has to be a limit of some kind i get that they want money but games in the past made profit with just a sub.

And prices for server maintenance were higher back then....

So ESO has subs and enough cosmetic items that cost as much as 2-3 subs each. Also the gambling thing, crates...

Yet they still need more? Could it be just greed motivating them now and not "we need to keep the servers up".

Some people don't want to acknowledge it but I'm detecting much more aggressive crown store marketing in just the past few months. It sure feels like a change in policy to me.

NewBlacksmurf · January 2017

Yes.

starkerealm wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

You're trying to change the context.

Not really.

The question, in case you forgot, was: "Is the game being designed to force people to use the Crown Store?"

You've been trying to warp that into, "are there benefits available exclusively to subscribers?" Which, yes, there are exclusive perks for subscribers. But you're not forced to purchase them. The game is entirely playable, and even gets updates, if you never spend a dime after buying the box. So, to answer the question that was actually asked, then no. However, you've spent pages, trying to re-contextualize all of the added content as necessary, and as a result compulsory. Which, you know, it's not.

@starkerealm

That's the subject of the thread. Read the actual OP

starkerealm · January 2017

No.

Iselin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

And no as far as I know tempers are not going to be sold in the cash shop (not yet anyway but we're heading that way.) So you're either not getting the relationship between something being exceedingly grindy in the game driving cash shop sales or you're just pretending not to... I suspect it's the later.

Or I understand that, simply by creating a need, you don't automatically start selling something if you don't make it available.

If ZOS was selling tempers, then you'd have a point. "Oh, look, they're putting pressure on the market to get people to buy them." But, you can't buy any of the things you get with vouchers. Maybe the Ebony Motif at some point. But, unless they're selling the crafting stations... that's not an option.

It doesn't drive people to the store, if you're not selling what you drove the demand up for.

Seriously. I understand the idea behind F2P games that lock things behind horrific grind routes, and then turn around and let you buy your way past. That's a problem. But, if there's no way to buy your way past these barriers, it's not about using the grind to push you towards buying stuff.

Again, if ZOS doesn't sell it, you can't buy it. If you can't buy it, then promoting grind is about keeping players in the game, working towards goals, not about lining your own pockets directly.

Maybe you shouldn't assume that furnishings, which are the end goal of using those tempers, are not going to be sold in the cash shop. Selling or not selling tempers is irrelevant when they're just a means to an end.

Furnishing sales is not on the PTS... yet. But what IS in the PTS is the ability to buy a house from the cash shop FURNISHED... that extra cost is just adding a furnishings bundle and selling that instead of piece by piece.

And you can bet that "piece by piece" will also be sold either directly or through inclusion in crown crates or both.

Assuming the version presented on the PTS is what goes live... furniture is sold directly through the housing interface. Pieces range from 50 crowns up to 400. Thing is, I can't remember seeing any gold furniture in the list of stuff they were selling. Now, that could change, obviously. But, it was mostly white through blue, with a few purple pieces (the ones running for 400). Also, I'm not 100% certain, but I think most of that was also available via crafting. The ones you buy get marked with a crown icon in the interface.

Now, they probably will add furniture to future crown crates, but... I'm not seeing anything in that entire system, aside from the attunable stations and the DPS dummies that will really compel players to cough up cash for them unless they have really limited self control.

Well like I already said, good salesmen never make you think they're forcing you. They just steer you in certain directions.

I was really looking forward to housing but the grind for getting the things in it that most appeal to me: attunable crafting stations, the target skeleton and crafting furnishings, are totally turning me off to the whole thing.

Marketing is about creating a need, then providing a means to satisfy it. Yeah, I know. Which is why I'm saying, if you're not offering an out, you're not selling anything. We're talking about marketing, not sorcery here.

Also, look, if you want the rare stuff in this game, you're going to need to grind. Nothing has changed. That's been true of getting yellow gear from the beginning. That was true of the V16 gear when it was added. That was true of the Glass Motif... oh god, the Glass Motif. That was true of the monster sets for a long time (still is, if you want the BIS traits). It's been true of the XP pots, and more true of the Aetheric versions.

MMOs include a lot of grind. It's part of the genre, and dates back to when your only options were to subscribe or not. The grind was about keeping people in the games and playing back then. And that hasn't really changed. If ZOS was letting people skirt around the grind by coughing up cash, then that would be one thing. They're only doing that with the cosmetic crap. Not the stuff that's actually valuable and useful.

EDIT: Hell, if you hated the idea of grind, have you seen the threads on vMA grinding? Seriously?

Yeah I know that we have grind as do all MMORPGs. But games, for good reason, have a mix of not so grindy, grind and very grindy. If everything is a PITA grind, only Koreans will play it

Furnishing crafting takes crafting grind to a whole new level relative to all other crafting in this game.

Not really. I mean, some of the big purple ones, yeah, but most of the stuff you'd actually be using doesn't chew up nearly as much. Again, the major exception seems to be the common style stones, which can be purchased for gold.

The insane thing with furniture is the gold costs on some of the larger achievement awards. There's a couple 100k statues mixed in there, and a lot that are in the 25k+ range. Furniture crafting is way cheaper than it looks in most cases, though.

starkerealm · January 2017

No.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

You're trying to change the context.

Not really.

The question, in case you forgot, was: "Is the game being designed to force people to use the Crown Store?"

You've been trying to warp that into, "are there benefits available exclusively to subscribers?" Which, yes, there are exclusive perks for subscribers. But you're not forced to purchase them. The game is entirely playable, and even gets updates, if you never spend a dime after buying the box. So, to answer the question that was actually asked, then no. However, you've spent pages, trying to re-contextualize all of the added content as necessary, and as a result compulsory. Which, you know, it's not.

@starkerealm

That's the subject of the thread. Read the actual OP

That's also the actual poll subject. You know, the question people are actually voting on? That thing.

If he'd asked, "Do you think that ZOS is making some utility items artificially rare to promote the crown store?" That'd be a different question with a different answer. If he'd said anything about, all the systems being added to the game that are gated behind the subscription or DLC purchases, then you might have a point. But he didn't. He was talking about stuff like the XP pots. At which point, "forced?" No.

If CP was still uncapped, he might have a stronger argument for that, because then the XP pots simply put you ahead of other players, instead of pushing you towards the finish line faster.

But, with the game that actually exists? No, it's not forced.

Iselin · January 2017

Yes.

starkerealm wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

And no as far as I know tempers are not going to be sold in the cash shop (not yet anyway but we're heading that way.) So you're either not getting the relationship between something being exceedingly grindy in the game driving cash shop sales or you're just pretending not to... I suspect it's the later.

Or I understand that, simply by creating a need, you don't automatically start selling something if you don't make it available.

If ZOS was selling tempers, then you'd have a point. "Oh, look, they're putting pressure on the market to get people to buy them." But, you can't buy any of the things you get with vouchers. Maybe the Ebony Motif at some point. But, unless they're selling the crafting stations... that's not an option.

It doesn't drive people to the store, if you're not selling what you drove the demand up for.

Seriously. I understand the idea behind F2P games that lock things behind horrific grind routes, and then turn around and let you buy your way past. That's a problem. But, if there's no way to buy your way past these barriers, it's not about using the grind to push you towards buying stuff.

Again, if ZOS doesn't sell it, you can't buy it. If you can't buy it, then promoting grind is about keeping players in the game, working towards goals, not about lining your own pockets directly.

Maybe you shouldn't assume that furnishings, which are the end goal of using those tempers, are not going to be sold in the cash shop. Selling or not selling tempers is irrelevant when they're just a means to an end.

Furnishing sales is not on the PTS... yet. But what IS in the PTS is the ability to buy a house from the cash shop FURNISHED... that extra cost is just adding a furnishings bundle and selling that instead of piece by piece.

And you can bet that "piece by piece" will also be sold either directly or through inclusion in crown crates or both.

Assuming the version presented on the PTS is what goes live... furniture is sold directly through the housing interface. Pieces range from 50 crowns up to 400. Thing is, I can't remember seeing any gold furniture in the list of stuff they were selling. Now, that could change, obviously. But, it was mostly white through blue, with a few purple pieces (the ones running for 400). Also, I'm not 100% certain, but I think most of that was also available via crafting. The ones you buy get marked with a crown icon in the interface.

Now, they probably will add furniture to future crown crates, but... I'm not seeing anything in that entire system, aside from the attunable stations and the DPS dummies that will really compel players to cough up cash for them unless they have really limited self control.

Well like I already said, good salesmen never make you think they're forcing you. They just steer you in certain directions.

I was really looking forward to housing but the grind for getting the things in it that most appeal to me: attunable crafting stations, the target skeleton and crafting furnishings, are totally turning me off to the whole thing.

Marketing is about creating a need, then providing a means to satisfy it. Yeah, I know. Which is why I'm saying, if you're not offering an out, you're not selling anything. We're talking about marketing, not sorcery here.

Also, look, if you want the rare stuff in this game, you're going to need to grind. Nothing has changed. That's been true of getting yellow gear from the beginning. That was true of the V16 gear when it was added. That was true of the Glass Motif... oh god, the Glass Motif. That was true of the monster sets for a long time (still is, if you want the BIS traits). It's been true of the XP pots, and more true of the Aetheric versions.

MMOs include a lot of grind. It's part of the genre, and dates back to when your only options were to subscribe or not. The grind was about keeping people in the games and playing back then. And that hasn't really changed. If ZOS was letting people skirt around the grind by coughing up cash, then that would be one thing. They're only doing that with the cosmetic crap. Not the stuff that's actually valuable and useful.

EDIT: Hell, if you hated the idea of grind, have you seen the threads on vMA grinding? Seriously?

Yeah I know that we have grind as do all MMORPGs. But games, for good reason, have a mix of not so grindy, grind and very grindy. If everything is a PITA grind, only Koreans will play it

Furnishing crafting takes crafting grind to a whole new level relative to all other crafting in this game.

Not really. I mean, some of the big purple ones, yeah, but most of the stuff you'd actually be using doesn't chew up nearly as much. Again, the major exception seems to be the common style stones, which can be purchased for gold.

The insane thing with furniture is the gold costs on some of the larger achievement awards. There's a couple 100k statues mixed in there, and a lot that are in the 25k+ range. Furniture crafting is way cheaper than it looks in most cases, though.

Yeah really:

Furnishing mat drops from nodes are not quite nirncrux rare, but they're rare.
The mat requirements for crafting of those already rare furnishing mats are high.
Furnishing recipe drops are close to the rarity of blue style book drops. Nothing like provisioning recipe drops.

If it was only the very high end, exclusive furnishings crafting gated behind grind, I'd have no problem: that would be consistent with the ESO grind.

But that's not the case. Even common mundane white items are way too grindy to make.

Korah_Eaglecry · January 2017

Yes.

If people havent seen it happen before they might miss the writing on the wall. But its been slowly moving in that direction since its introduction. I dont have a problem with MTs. But the addition of Motifs, the harsh drop rates of those motifs and the Ambrosia (it costs so much at this point that using any of the ingredients would be a waste......just think about that for a moment in context of a video game an item costs so much that no one would risk using it for its intended purpose). And why? Because the harder it is to get in game, the more likely they are to turn to the store. There hasnt been a single new mount added to the game to be obtained through in game means. If you want a new mount, you have to get it in the Store, and cross your fingers you have the funds and the time on your hands to catch it. Otherwise, youll have to wait til they feel like adding it to the Crown Crates so you can spend 3-4 times its initial LTO cost so you can obtain it. Theyre now adding Crown Store exclusive and LTO Motifs. With the the exclusives having no means of actually obtaining in-game style material. Forcing players to rely on Mimic Stones.

People can deny it all they want. But we've hit a turning point in the road with MTs. From here on out, the grip will continue to get tighter.