Sharpened VMA daggers vs sharpened non-VMA daggers

NinthPrince64 · January 2017

I am seeking understanding. Thanks in advance for your help.

I believe that there is a conventional wisdom that when in VMA, you should not use VMA (sharpened) daggers, you should use non-VMA (sharpened/set) daggers. The shorthand explanation for this conventional wisdom seems to be that "things die too quickly" for the benefit of the VMA daggers to be realized. I assume that the cost of using VMA daggers is the set bonuses you would be giving up (as well the enchant on the non-VMA daggers). So, limited, if any benefit, but a potentially meaningful cost. Hence, the wisdom to use non-VMA daggers.

So, my first question is, have I correctly identified the relevant costs and benefits for making a decision between the two?

Second, is the conventional wisdom that you should use non-VMA daggers unconditional (in other words, it holds for all circumstances/builds)? For example, for Maelstrom I run a stam sorc and I rely heavily on DoTs (though not all can be empowered by the daggers). When it comes to bosses/mini-bosses, it seems like there are ones that I don't kill very quickly. If my DoTs tick all the way through their cycles, wouldn't that be a situation where the benefit of the daggers is enhanced (thereby potentially changing the conclusion about which weapon to use)?

Also, I am relatively new to clearing VMA with only 10 clears under my belt. I am still learning the fights and, realistically, not looking for scores that would put me on leaderboards. Does that change the analysis in any way?

Thx.

jakeedmundson · January 2017

In vma... sustain and surviving is more important than 100% max damage that you would get with vma daggers.
that being said...

I personally ran 5 VO and 5 Hundings or Nightmothers WITH mal weapons... and decided to skip the monster sets because the damage difference was pretty small in the arena. The procs didn't seem to hit the big enemies i wanted them to... and the weapon damage bonus is actually higher (if you were using velidreth or kena) when you have the mal weapons in their place.

I liked 5 VO because of the 8% stamina cost reduction and the stamina regen for kills
hundings and nightmothers both have their merits... really up to you.
VMA weapons... true the dots don't last long on the early trash but it makes boss fights end quicker. (good or bad depending on your comfort level with the bosses)

It really comes down to personal preference and what you enjoy using... if you can beat the arena... just keep tweaking your build until you find what works best for your style. Everyone plays the arena a little bit different.

Lukums1 · January 2017

It's Lukums again to save the day.

This is the biggest pondering question known to man - mmm bit over the top.

We run NMG or Two Fang Snake due to the impending pen, but your question really sits at the below:

Do I drop monster helm for Maelstrom Weapons.

1. If you drop Monster Helm in this instance Veli/Khrags you will LOSE the burst potential. There is nothing more satisfying then seeing a full group of adds DIE BOOM on round 5-7-8-9 when veli procs for 20k.
2. If you see yourself as master weaver I would drop monster helm and go 5 vo / 5 two fanged snake or nmg the damage you gain from empower for bosses and miniboss is of benefit.
3. You mentioned you're not bursting them down? Trap, posion, endless, light/heavy, blood craze, rapid DEAD. I don't see how you couldn't be smashing them out in 2-3 seconds honestly I know you can!

Come patch with the nerf to crit, Khrags will be the way to travel it will be steady damage and you'll also obtian the pen to make up for some lost when veli gets destroyed.

In any case, here is what I can offer.

I can make 2 videos tonight or potentially 2 runs, 1 with nmg/vo and 2 sharp daggers the other with 5 nmg/5 vo/2 veli or 2 khrags.

I have tried axe/dagger combo and I have to say I didn't like it. But that was probably because the lose of crit.

At this time, it's just not worth running them in vMA.

Boss 1. Dies in 10-15 seconds
Boss 2. Dies in 1minute with no toilet mode
Boss 3. Dies in 15-20 seconds depending on environment
Boss 4. Dies in 30-45 seconds depending if you sit under him with rend going HAM.
Boss 5. Dies in 1minute phasing platforms so fast when NOT using vMA daggers
Boss 6. Dies in 10-15 seconds
Boss 7. Dies in 1minute
Boss 8. Dies in 1minute - 1/30 depending on ennironment
Boss 9. Phases at 70%, Crystal Phase, Down and Dead in another 30-45 seconds.

This is with nmg/vo/veli using a very sub rotation which I do, and could surely be improved greatly.

NinthPrince64 · January 2017

I have the kind of luck with VO that some people have with vMSA. I've never gotten a single piece of jewelry.

Hyde_Jekyll · January 2017

Out of topic wanna ask about the maelstrom bow. Anyone here tried on pts if infused maelstrom bow is better than sharpened when using endless hail? since 90% of the time as soon as you cast it you'll be switching to your main bar. Just wanna ask if the damage would scale on your main bar stats. Or will it still use the sharpened stats of your bow for the whole duration.

NinthPrince64 · January 2017

@Lukums1, wrt VO, is there an overland set (I say this for the relative availability) that I could combine with an assortment of non-jewelry VO that I have that would be superior to my default vMSA setup? My default setup is: 2xNMG daggers, sharpened, Maelstrom bow, nirn, 3xNMG body, 2xRed Mountain body, 3xRed Mountain jewelry. For Monster it is either Kragh or Veli, but usually Kragh now.

I would have to check my other stam toons, but I think I have a fair amount of Leviathan and Spriggan laying around, but not sure if the weapons would be ideal traits.

Hyde_Jekyll · January 2017

@NinthPrince64 when I first got my VO set I was using 2 red mountain dagger and 3 red mountain jewelry (got lucky with the dagger since they're selling it cheap) but since they are nerfing the proc sets just go with 2 spriggan dagger and 3 jewelry. Dagger imo is BIS compared to swords and they are cheaper too. Wish I farmed during the double drops but vet trial groups were so hot during those days I just had to join. Well good thing I joined and got all the vet drops that I want coz now vet pug groups are rare on consoles.

Lukums1 · January 2017

NinthPrince64 wrote: »

@Lukums1, wrt VO, is there an overland set (I say this for the relative availability) that I could combine with an assortment of non-jewelry VO that I have that would be superior to my default vMSA setup? My default setup is: 2xNMG daggers, sharpened, Maelstrom bow, nirn, 3xNMG body, 2xRed Mountain body, 3xRed Mountain jewelry. For Monster it is either Kragh or Veli, but usually Kragh now.

I would have to check my other stam toons, but I think I have a fair amount of Leviathan and Spriggan laying around, but not sure if the weapons would be ideal traits.

In my opinion proc sets currently is fine to be using no drama with viper or red mounting combined with NMG.
Veli over Khrags currently as the 20-22k crits in a cone formation is too good for trash NOT to have but that's me. Come patch I'll be swapping to Khrags 1 piece and 1 piece veli still tossing up.

As far as when patch comes. NMG + Spriggen is what most people will do 2 rings/1neck 2 body pieces.
However this is so much pen it's crazy.

I've been experimenting again with TBS + VO and I'm seeing better overall damage over time at a steady pace.

The issue with TBS+Spriggan will be that you lose the 1250 crit, and on a stam sorc for newbies and fresh starts to vMA that's too much survivability to lose. However when we are speaking about ourselves I would suggest going TBS + Spriggan when patch hits IF you DON'T have VO.

The Sharpen Bow vs the Infused was the following outcome:

Sharpen you could tell hands down that light/heavy attacks were DESTROYING mobs.
The damage from Endless Hail itself sharpen/infused I couldn't HONESTLY tell the difference.

But the difference is real when you're light/heavy random spawns around the arena on any stage.
For this reason I'd still be using sharp instead of infused vMA bow

Luke