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Twice Born Wars: Precise+Divines vs Sharpened+Prosperous?
-
gard✭✭✭✭✭lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »Obviously depends on the testing conditions. In a raid environment with alkosh, potl and >50% Major Force uptime precise+divines would win. In a pug where you maybe don't even have the major spell resist debuff on your target and don't get a single warhorn, I guess sharpend would be better.
See? This right here is exactly why the LOL button needs to be reactivated!
3 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sharpened + ProsperousEasy question.
If you have two exact builds;Twice Born Star with Thief and Shadow:
one wearing full light full divines gear + Precise Destro weapon,
one wearing full light full prosperous gear + Sharpened Destro weapon,
which do you think would have better DPS?
You've got more than one variable there. You're changing the armor and the weapon, while trying to make a point about the weapon.
Look at what you did again. In the first build, you wear twice born. In the second build, you change what you're wearing.
If you want to compare a sharpened weapon to a precise weapon, then you do not change the armor at all. Yet here, you are doing that.
I see what you are trying to do - illustrate how dominant the sharpened trait is - but you screwed up the impact of the message by starting out with crit armor for the precise weapon and an indifferent armor for the sharpened. You should have saved that for later, to be able to say something like 'even changing to twice born so you can get a mundus to buff both crit chance and damage does not match sharpened'.
It's the exact same armor.
Just swap Divines trait for anything else.
The point is... everybody knows that Sharpened will outperform Precise.
It's common knowledge.
But people usually can't grasp just how much more powerful Sharpened is.
This test was "rigged" to favor Precise.- You have 7 extra BiS gear traits to help Precise.
- You have TBS: a BiS set that favors Critical, and benefits most from those BiS traits.
- You have the maximum number of CPs allocated into Elfborn for more Critical.
- You have Minor and Major Force to boost Critical even more
Yet still Sharpened outperforms.
I don't know what @Wrobel or @ZOS_RichLambert were thinking when they named this a "balancing" update.
I don't see much balance.
No, it's not the same base upon which to compare sharpened weapon to a precise weapon.
Twice born means 2 mundus. Switching the trait of the armor from divine to something else means you are changing the size of the effect of the mundus.
Twice born with something else means the basic mundus buff is applied to weapon X. Twice born with divines means a much larger mundus buff is being applied.
Changing the trait of the armor has an effect here.
Don't believe me? Try this - go kill something with twice born divines thief shadow and any weapon you want. Then change to twice born prosperous thief shadow and kill the same mob with the same weapon. You will find that the size of your mundus buffs has gotten smaller because the trait of the armor has an impact in this experiment.
That's how you do a factual comparison, change ONE element at a time.
I think you're a bit confused....
Precise buffs Crit Chance.
Twice-Born Star gains more benefit from armor traits (Divines) than any other set, and is highly DPS-oriented.
The OP took Twice-Born Star with 7/7 Divines and applied The Thief (Crit Chance) and The Shadow (Crit Damage) mundus stones. They then used a Precise weapon. This setup provides more bonus damage benefit to Precise than any other trait.
They then tested again, but with the Sharpened weapon trait and Prosperous armor traits. Essentially, they removed armor traits from the equation, very much weakening their Twice-Born Star bonus damage benefit. Next thrir Precise weapon was replaced with a Sharpened weapon.
• The extra damage from Sharpened alone is more powerful than Precise + 7/7 Divines even when using the Twice-Born Star set on live. Next patch the gap grows larger.4 -
AzuraKin✭✭✭✭✭Sharpened + ProsperousWant to know the sad part? This was an easy decision.
Sharpened > Precise > Nirnhoned
The margins between them are quite large. Next patch Sharpened actually becomes more powerful since Critical hit builds (Precise) are getting nerfs.
Also, some people say Precise is better if you get a bosses resistance to zero. Understand that in order to get a boss to zero resistance, it is both inconvenient and requires either the Sharpened trait or many weak stacked sets that do not have 100% uptime. You lose lots of damage before the boss even gets there. Running all your DPS with Sharpened and BiS DPS sets is still better.
Sharpened is just too strong.
actually not factual. it has been stated and my personal tests as well have backed up the fact that in pve bosses have ~18k resist.
mages:
armor 4000 pene
weapon 5280 pene
major breach (s/b taunt) 5280 pene
minor breach (multiple sources) 1720 pene
totals: 16280 penetration.
stamina:
weapon 5280 pene
major breach 5280 pene
minor breach 1720 pene
sunderflame (heavy weapon attack) 3440 pene
nmg (crit) 2580 pene
totals 18300 penetration.
and that is with just 1 person applying the external penetrations.v160 spellsword (nightblade)
v160 restoration archmage (Templar)
v160 battlemage (sorcerer)
v160 restoration archmage (Templar)
v160 warrior (DragonKnight)
v160 assassin (nightblade)
v160 swordsman (sorcerer)
v160 spellsword (nightblade)0 -
Cryptical✭✭✭✭✭
✭Easy question.
If you have two exact builds;Twice Born Star with Thief and Shadow:
one wearing full light full divines gear + Precise Destro weapon,
one wearing full light full prosperous gear + Sharpened Destro weapon,
which do you think would have better DPS?
You've got more than one variable there. You're changing the armor and the weapon, while trying to make a point about the weapon.
Look at what you did again. In the first build, you wear twice born. In the second build, you change what you're wearing.
If you want to compare a sharpened weapon to a precise weapon, then you do not change the armor at all. Yet here, you are doing that.
I see what you are trying to do - illustrate how dominant the sharpened trait is - but you screwed up the impact of the message by starting out with crit armor for the precise weapon and an indifferent armor for the sharpened. You should have saved that for later, to be able to say something like 'even changing to twice born so you can get a mundus to buff both crit chance and damage does not match sharpened'.
It's the exact same armor.
Just swap Divines trait for anything else.
The point is... everybody knows that Sharpened will outperform Precise.
It's common knowledge.
But people usually can't grasp just how much more powerful Sharpened is.
This test was "rigged" to favor Precise.- You have 7 extra BiS gear traits to help Precise.
- You have TBS: a BiS set that favors Critical, and benefits most from those BiS traits.
- You have the maximum number of CPs allocated into Elfborn for more Critical.
- You have Minor and Major Force to boost Critical even more
Yet still Sharpened outperforms.
I don't know what @Wrobel or @ZOS_RichLambert were thinking when they named this a "balancing" update.
I don't see much balance.
No, it's not the same base upon which to compare sharpened weapon to a precise weapon.
Twice born means 2 mundus. Switching the trait of the armor from divine to something else means you are changing the size of the effect of the mundus.
Twice born with something else means the basic mundus buff is applied to weapon X. Twice born with divines means a much larger mundus buff is being applied.
Changing the trait of the armor has an effect here.
Don't believe me? Try this - go kill something with twice born divines thief shadow and any weapon you want. Then change to twice born prosperous thief shadow and kill the same mob with the same weapon. You will find that the size of your mundus buffs has gotten smaller because the trait of the armor has an impact in this experiment.
That's how you do a factual comparison, change ONE element at a time.
Did you even go through this thread @Cryptical ?
There is a graph with Sharpened + Divines comparison
Look at that graph again. The blue and purple columns are comparing the effect of divines, because that's the change between them. That surge is the size of the divines ARMOR buff which had nothing to do with the weapon.
If you are wanting to compare weapon traits, then pull that blue column out of there comepletely, so that the armor actually is the same in all three cases and the ONLY thing you are swapping is the weapon bit.Xbox NA1 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sharpened + ProsperousWant to know the sad part? This was an easy decision.
Sharpened > Precise > Nirnhoned
The margins between them are quite large. Next patch Sharpened actually becomes more powerful since Critical hit builds (Precise) are getting nerfs.
Also, some people say Precise is better if you get a bosses resistance to zero. Understand that in order to get a boss to zero resistance, it is both inconvenient and requires either the Sharpened trait or many weak stacked sets that do not have 100% uptime. You lose lots of damage before the boss even gets there. Running all your DPS with Sharpened and BiS DPS sets is still better.
Sharpened is just too strong.
actually not factual. it has been stated and my personal tests as well have backed up the fact that in pve bosses have ~18k resist.
mages:
armor 4000 pene
weapon 5280 pene
major breach (s/b taunt) 5280 pene
minor breach (multiple sources) 1720 pene
totals: 16280 penetration.
stamina:
weapon 5280 pene
major breach 5280 pene
minor breach 1720 pene
sunderflame (heavy weapon attack) 3440 pene
nmg (crit) 2580 pene
totals 18300 penetration.
and that is with just 1 person applying the external penetrations.
You used Sharpened in your math.
You just agreed with me
Also where's your Alkosh!? You are doing this wrong.4 -
Cryptical✭✭✭✭✭
✭Again, for simplicity...
A pile of sharpened and divines
Compared to
A pile of sharpened and prosperous
Is only going to illustrate the difference between what has changed between pile 1 and pile 2.
Pull the blue column out.Xbox NA0 -
Malamar1229✭✭✭✭✭
✭Precise + DivinesSeems 75% of you were wrong.
And a part of the 25% might just be trolling, but they are correct.
Don't get me wrong, I don't advertise the use of Prosperous. Divines is most definitely the BiS armor trait.
But this should get you a nice idea of just how overpowered Sharpened really is.
And now you just might realize why I advocate for a nerf.
why dont you test sharpened and divines now against sharpened in prosperous. I mean that is the only true way to see Prosperous as King.
0 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭mr_wazzabi wrote: »@Dubhliam instead of nerfing sharpened, I would rather they buff precise and nirnhoned.
Buff precise to something like 10% crit and nirnhoned to 15-20% extra damage.
Right now precise is 7% crit and nirnhoned is 11% damage, which are not enough to match sharpened.
Are you serious?!
Do you not see the numbers posted here?!
Okay, let's take a look at this from another perspective:
A golden Spriggan will grant 4000 Penetration
ONLY Physical Penetration.
How can a single trait be that more effective than a 5th piece bonus that is also considered one of the BiS sets?
Or would you also advocate that ZOS buffs all those sets also?
Face it, there is only one rotten egg in the basket, and we all know what it is.5 -
AzuraKin✭✭✭✭✭Sharpened + Prosperousmr_wazzabi wrote: »@Dubhliam instead of nerfing sharpened, I would rather they buff precise and nirnhoned.
Buff precise to something like 10% crit and nirnhoned to 15-20% extra damage.
Right now precise is 7% crit and nirnhoned is 11% damage, which are not enough to match sharpened.
that would throw traits out of alignment. and to be frank i would say nirnhoned is only one that can be argued as being underpowered. as i have stated many times on this and similar threads PRECISE IS NOT AN INTENDED DPS TRAIT. if you wanna use it for dps, that your choice, you make the choice that you could do more damage then sharpened if you facing something with only ~13k resist, or use a set to offset the penetration loss. nothing needs to be changed with these traits.
33500 is ~ the cap to gain 50% mitigation. this puts 670 resist as a 1% mitigation value. this puts sharpened at a 7.9% boost to dps against an opponent with 18k+ resist. so if you wanna argue for anything should be changed, the only thing you could argue should be changed is nirnhoned from a 11% boost on weapon's value to a flat damage boost of 7% at gold value on 2nd, 3.5% on 1hand weapons.v160 spellsword (nightblade)
v160 restoration archmage (Templar)
v160 battlemage (sorcerer)
v160 restoration archmage (Templar)
v160 warrior (DragonKnight)
v160 assassin (nightblade)
v160 swordsman (sorcerer)
v160 spellsword (nightblade)2 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sharpened + ProsperousEasy question.
If you have two exact builds;Twice Born Star with Thief and Shadow:
one wearing full light full divines gear + Precise Destro weapon,
one wearing full light full prosperous gear + Sharpened Destro weapon,
which do you think would have better DPS?
You've got more than one variable there. You're changing the armor and the weapon, while trying to make a point about the weapon.
Look at what you did again. In the first build, you wear twice born. In the second build, you change what you're wearing.
If you want to compare a sharpened weapon to a precise weapon, then you do not change the armor at all. Yet here, you are doing that.
I see what you are trying to do - illustrate how dominant the sharpened trait is - but you screwed up the impact of the message by starting out with crit armor for the precise weapon and an indifferent armor for the sharpened. You should have saved that for later, to be able to say something like 'even changing to twice born so you can get a mundus to buff both crit chance and damage does not match sharpened'.
It's the exact same armor.
Just swap Divines trait for anything else.
The point is... everybody knows that Sharpened will outperform Precise.
It's common knowledge.
But people usually can't grasp just how much more powerful Sharpened is.
This test was "rigged" to favor Precise.- You have 7 extra BiS gear traits to help Precise.
- You have TBS: a BiS set that favors Critical, and benefits most from those BiS traits.
- You have the maximum number of CPs allocated into Elfborn for more Critical.
- You have Minor and Major Force to boost Critical even more
Yet still Sharpened outperforms.
I don't know what @Wrobel or @ZOS_RichLambert were thinking when they named this a "balancing" update.
I don't see much balance.
No, it's not the same base upon which to compare sharpened weapon to a precise weapon.
Twice born means 2 mundus. Switching the trait of the armor from divine to something else means you are changing the size of the effect of the mundus.
Twice born with something else means the basic mundus buff is applied to weapon X. Twice born with divines means a much larger mundus buff is being applied.
Changing the trait of the armor has an effect here.
Don't believe me? Try this - go kill something with twice born divines thief shadow and any weapon you want. Then change to twice born prosperous thief shadow and kill the same mob with the same weapon. You will find that the size of your mundus buffs has gotten smaller because the trait of the armor has an impact in this experiment.
That's how you do a factual comparison, change ONE element at a time.
Did you even go through this thread @Cryptical ?
There is a graph with Sharpened + Divines comparison
Look at that graph again. The blue and purple columns are comparing the effect of divines, because that's the change between them. That surge is the size of the divines ARMOR buff which had nothing to do with the weapon.
If you are wanting to compare weapon traits, then pull that blue column out of there comepletely, so that the armor actually is the same in all three cases and the ONLY thing you are swapping is the weapon bit.
What you are failing to understand is that everyone knows Sharpened is stronger than Precise. By a lot too. This needs very little testing to prove. Sharpened+Divines >>> Precise+Divines
The point of including Sharpened+Prosperous vs Precise+Divines is to show that Sharpened is so powerful, it still outclasses Precise in damage when armor traits are taken into account.
We have no reason to ever use Nirnhoned and no longer any reason to bother with Precise when Sharpened is this beneficial to DPS.Edited by Vaoh on January 11, 2017 6:32PM5 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭• The extra damage from Sharpened alone is more powerful than Precise + 7/7 Divines even when using the Twice-Born Star set on live. Next patch the gap grows larger.
Actually, this test was not done on the live server.
I am not that crazy to spend over 50 Resin on Prosperous TBS just to make a point.
However, the setup didn't include any proc monster sets, which are still considered BiS even if they don't crit.
Using a proc set further weakens Precise.3 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭Want to know the sad part? This was an easy decision.
Sharpened > Precise > Nirnhoned
The margins between them are quite large. Next patch Sharpened actually becomes more powerful since Critical hit builds (Precise) are getting nerfs.
Also, some people say Precise is better if you get a bosses resistance to zero. Understand that in order to get a boss to zero resistance, it is both inconvenient and requires either the Sharpened trait or many weak stacked sets that do not have 100% uptime. You lose lots of damage before the boss even gets there. Running all your DPS with Sharpened and BiS DPS sets is still better.
Sharpened is just too strong.
actually not factual. it has been stated and my personal tests as well have backed up the fact that in pve bosses have ~18k resist.
mages:
armor 4000 pene
weapon 5280 pene
major breach (s/b taunt) 5280 pene
minor breach (multiple sources) 1720 pene
totals: 16280 penetration.
stamina:
weapon 5280 pene
major breach 5280 pene
minor breach 1720 pene
sunderflame (heavy weapon attack) 3440 pene
nmg (crit) 2580 pene
totals 18300 penetration.
and that is with just 1 person applying the external penetrations.
but you ARE INCLUDING SHARPENED IN THIS MATH!!!!3 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭Easy question.
If you have two exact builds;Twice Born Star with Thief and Shadow:
one wearing full light full divines gear + Precise Destro weapon,
one wearing full light full prosperous gear + Sharpened Destro weapon,
which do you think would have better DPS?
You've got more than one variable there. You're changing the armor and the weapon, while trying to make a point about the weapon.
Look at what you did again. In the first build, you wear twice born. In the second build, you change what you're wearing.
If you want to compare a sharpened weapon to a precise weapon, then you do not change the armor at all. Yet here, you are doing that.
I see what you are trying to do - illustrate how dominant the sharpened trait is - but you screwed up the impact of the message by starting out with crit armor for the precise weapon and an indifferent armor for the sharpened. You should have saved that for later, to be able to say something like 'even changing to twice born so you can get a mundus to buff both crit chance and damage does not match sharpened'.
It's the exact same armor.
Just swap Divines trait for anything else.
The point is... everybody knows that Sharpened will outperform Precise.
It's common knowledge.
But people usually can't grasp just how much more powerful Sharpened is.
This test was "rigged" to favor Precise.- You have 7 extra BiS gear traits to help Precise.
- You have TBS: a BiS set that favors Critical, and benefits most from those BiS traits.
- You have the maximum number of CPs allocated into Elfborn for more Critical.
- You have Minor and Major Force to boost Critical even more
Yet still Sharpened outperforms.
I don't know what @Wrobel or @ZOS_RichLambert were thinking when they named this a "balancing" update.
I don't see much balance.
No, it's not the same base upon which to compare sharpened weapon to a precise weapon.
Twice born means 2 mundus. Switching the trait of the armor from divine to something else means you are changing the size of the effect of the mundus.
Twice born with something else means the basic mundus buff is applied to weapon X. Twice born with divines means a much larger mundus buff is being applied.
Changing the trait of the armor has an effect here.
Don't believe me? Try this - go kill something with twice born divines thief shadow and any weapon you want. Then change to twice born prosperous thief shadow and kill the same mob with the same weapon. You will find that the size of your mundus buffs has gotten smaller because the trait of the armor has an impact in this experiment.
That's how you do a factual comparison, change ONE element at a time.
Did you even go through this thread @Cryptical ?
There is a graph with Sharpened + Divines comparison
Look at that graph again. The blue and purple columns are comparing the effect of divines, because that's the change between them. That surge is the size of the divines ARMOR buff which had nothing to do with the weapon.
If you are wanting to compare weapon traits, then pull that blue column out of there comepletely, so that the armor actually is the same in all three cases and the ONLY thing you are swapping is the weapon bit.
As I mentioned earlier, if I was to ONLY compare weapon traits, people would argue that Precise still overperforms in trial scenarios, and that Sharpened is a situational trait, whic, in fact, it is not.
The exclusion of 7 Divines in this graph is here to put some perspective on just how much a single trait can buff your DPS.5 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sharpened + Prosperous• The extra damage from Sharpened alone is more powerful than Precise + 7/7 Divines even when using the Twice-Born Star set on live. Next patch the gap grows larger.
Actually, this test was not done on the live server.
I am not that crazy to spend over 50 Resin on Prosperous TBS just to make a point.
However, the setup didn't include any proc monster sets, which are still considered BiS even if they don't crit.
Using a proc set further weakens Precise.
Yeah I know. You can still test it with Purple Prosperous TBS instead. Weaker than Gold Divines but you'll likely still pull more damage as the data showed (further proving the imbalance if anything).
Makes me sad how weak Precise is compared to Sharpened. I've farmed Moondancer staves for a long time now, and my best drop was a Precise inferno staff. Nornally I'd upgrade to gold but I know Sharpened >>> Precise
Only one trait is suitable
Also proc sets having 0% crit chance negates any benefit they should gain from both your Crit Chance and Crit Damage modifiers. Plus those Major+Minor Force changes..... goodbye Crit-focused builds.
Hello BSW on all Mag DPS meta -_-
Edited by Vaoh on January 11, 2017 6:40PM2 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭• The extra damage from Sharpened alone is more powerful than Precise + 7/7 Divines even when using the Twice-Born Star set on live. Next patch the gap grows larger.
Actually, this test was not done on the live server.
I am not that crazy to spend over 50 Resin on Prosperous TBS just to make a point.
However, the setup didn't include any proc monster sets, which are still considered BiS even if they don't crit.
Using a proc set further weakens Precise.
Yeah I know. You can still test it with Purple Prosperous TBS instead. Weaker than Gold Divines but you'll likely still pull more damage as the data showed (further proving the imbalance if anything).
Makes me sad how weak Precise is compared to Sharpened. I've farmed Moondancer staves for a long time now, and my best drop was a Precise inferno staff. Nornally I'd upgrade to gold but I know Sharpened >>> Precise Only one trait is suitable
Also proc sets having 0% crit chance negates any benefit they should gain from both you Crit Chance and Crit Damage modifiers. Plus his Major+Minor Force changes..... goodbye Crit-focused builds.
Hello BSW on all Mag DPS meta -_-
I wanted to maximally favor Precise.
Meaning I need legendary gear for the best Divines bonus.0 -
AzuraKin✭✭✭✭✭Sharpened + Prosperous• The extra damage from Sharpened alone is more powerful than Precise + 7/7 Divines even when using the Twice-Born Star set on live. Next patch the gap grows larger.
Actually, this test was not done on the live server.
I am not that crazy to spend over 50 Resin on Prosperous TBS just to make a point.
However, the setup didn't include any proc monster sets, which are still considered BiS even if they don't crit.
Using a proc set further weakens Precise.
Yeah I know. You can still test it with Purple Prosperous TBS instead. Weaker than Gold Divines but you'll likely still pull more damage as the data showed (further proving the imbalance if anything).
Makes me sad how weak Precise is compared to Sharpened. I've farmed Moondancer staves for a long time now, and my best drop was a Precise inferno staff. Nornally I'd upgrade to gold but I know Sharpened >>> Precise Only one trait is suitable
Also proc sets having 0% crit chance negates any benefit they should gain from both your Crit Chance and Crit Damage modifiers. Plus those Major+Minor Force changes..... goodbye Crit-focused builds.
Hello BSW on all Mag DPS meta -_-
dude you are making a choice, if you wanna dps with precise, you are making a choice to run with a healers trait. the only trait that should in any way be changed is nirnhoned from a weapon stat buff to a damage buff trait as mentioned earlier.
thus out of 9 traits you have
1 training
2 healer (precise, powered)
2 tank (defending, decisive)
2 dps (nirnhoned, sharpened)
2 effect improvement (charged, infused)v160 spellsword (nightblade)
v160 restoration archmage (Templar)
v160 battlemage (sorcerer)
v160 restoration archmage (Templar)
v160 warrior (DragonKnight)
v160 assassin (nightblade)
v160 swordsman (sorcerer)
v160 spellsword (nightblade)1 -
susmitds✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sharpened + Prosperous@ZOS_RichLambert Maybe rethink Sharpened please? Give other traits a chance please.2 -
AzuraKin✭✭✭✭✭Sharpened + ProsperousWant to know the sad part? This was an easy decision.
Sharpened > Precise > Nirnhoned
The margins between them are quite large. Next patch Sharpened actually becomes more powerful since Critical hit builds (Precise) are getting nerfs.
Also, some people say Precise is better if you get a bosses resistance to zero. Understand that in order to get a boss to zero resistance, it is both inconvenient and requires either the Sharpened trait or many weak stacked sets that do not have 100% uptime. You lose lots of damage before the boss even gets there. Running all your DPS with Sharpened and BiS DPS sets is still better.
Sharpened is just too strong.
actually not factual. it has been stated and my personal tests as well have backed up the fact that in pve bosses have ~18k resist.
mages:
armor 4000 pene
weapon 5280 pene
major breach (s/b taunt) 5280 pene
minor breach (multiple sources) 1720 pene
totals: 16280 penetration.
stamina:
weapon 5280 pene
major breach 5280 pene
minor breach 1720 pene
sunderflame (heavy weapon attack) 3440 pene
nmg (crit) 2580 pene
totals 18300 penetration.
and that is with just 1 person applying the external penetrations.
You used Sharpened in your math.
You just agreed with me
Also where's your Alkosh!? You are doing this wrong.
dude you do realize i didnt post every little thing that plays into this, i posted literally, armor passive for mages, did not post cp penetration, and posted no penetration from gear passives. i showed literally the innate weapon, gear, and tank applied penetration. you make a *** choice, and to be frank, instead of sitting in a box saying this trait is too weak because it performs better on my set up without regards to other of the 1000s of set ups available shows a lack of a capacity to think in a way required to determine if something is overpowered or not. you cannot and will not have 1 trait that is best in all situations. just because 99% of the populace base thier builds off a handful of players builds and theorycrafting and thus 1 trait is in dominance does not automatically mean other traits are underpowered. you have to look at things from a broad perspective so decide if they op or not.
a 1000 damage skill against 18k resist oponent with all the buffs and only the buffs i mentioned would mean that without precise, critical, or sharpened being calculated in the skill will do 920 damage. lets use a non nb, using shadow mundus, precise weapons, shadow mundus, sharpened weapons, thief mundus precise weapons, and thief mundus sharpened weapons. we will assume 70% crit chance base, 77% with precise, 85 with thief, and 92 with both for critical. and base 75% crit damage boost and 93% with shadow.
thief + precise
noncrit 920 d
crit 1610 d
rms 1554.8 d
thief + sharpened
noncrit 1000 d
crit 1750 d
rms 1637
thus with thief mundus: ~5% difference in rms in favor of sharpened.
shadow + precise
noncrit 920 d
crit 1775 d
rms 1563 d
shadow + sharpened
noncrit 1000 d
crit 1930 d
rms 1651 d
thus with shadow mundus we see again ~5% rms in favor of sharpened with only about a 1% difference between thief/shadow in favor of shadow. but lets take this a step further, and suppose the other 5280 was garnered elsewhere
thus precise and sharpened face the same resist 0. which can be done. once that happens then precise takes sharpened spot. thus we see the traits are balanced, sharpened only rules off precise when you still facing resist. if resist is removed, the rms factor that crit gives pushes precise in lead, since we are at least 10 cp updates away from that, we can say that in probably 5 (when we reac750 cp cap, the traits will be in perfect harmony in pve. in pvp, there so many other factors that one cannot justify changing traits just to satisfy a few disatisfied players who rather complain and blame something other then themselves for thier inabilty to win on the pvp battlefield.
well off to bed i am 20m late to do so due to writing this.v160 spellsword (nightblade)
v160 restoration archmage (Templar)
v160 battlemage (sorcerer)
v160 restoration archmage (Templar)
v160 warrior (DragonKnight)
v160 assassin (nightblade)
v160 swordsman (sorcerer)
v160 spellsword (nightblade)0 -
montiferus✭✭✭✭✭Precise + Divines
but you ARE INCLUDING SHARPENED IN THIS MATH!!!!
Lol I give you credit for trying to reason with him. I can't tell if he is a troll or just simply doesn't get it.
Love the poll. Well done.
I would say I hope this hits home with ZoS and they either buff the other traits or nerf sharpened but we all know they are hard at work on home design and making frost tanks. You know the important things that will enhance the game. SIGHEdited by montiferus on January 11, 2017 7:28PM2 -
montiferus✭✭✭✭✭Precise + DivinesWant to know the sad part? This was an easy decision.
Sharpened > Precise > Nirnhoned
The margins between them are quite large. Next patch Sharpened actually becomes more powerful since Critical hit builds (Precise) are getting nerfs.
Also, some people say Precise is better if you get a bosses resistance to zero. Understand that in order to get a boss to zero resistance, it is both inconvenient and requires either the Sharpened trait or many weak stacked sets that do not have 100% uptime. You lose lots of damage before the boss even gets there. Running all your DPS with Sharpened and BiS DPS sets is still better.
Sharpened is just too strong.
actually not factual. it has been stated and my personal tests as well have backed up the fact that in pve bosses have ~18k resist.
mages:
armor 4000 pene
weapon 5280 pene
major breach (s/b taunt) 5280 pene
minor breach (multiple sources) 1720 pene
totals: 16280 penetration.
stamina:
weapon 5280 pene
major breach 5280 pene
minor breach 1720 pene
sunderflame (heavy weapon attack) 3440 pene
nmg (crit) 2580 pene
totals 18300 penetration.
and that is with just 1 person applying the external penetrations.
You used Sharpened in your math.
You just agreed with me
Also where's your Alkosh!? You are doing this wrong.
dude you do realize i didnt post every little thing that plays into this, i posted literally, armor passive for mages, did not post cp penetration, and posted no penetration from gear passives. i showed literally the innate weapon, gear, and tank applied penetration. you make a *** choice, and to be frank, instead of sitting in a box saying this trait is too weak because it performs better on my set up without regards to other of the 1000s of set ups available shows a lack of a capacity to think in a way required to determine if something is overpowered or not. you cannot and will not have 1 trait that is best in all situations. just because 99% of the populace base thier builds off a handful of players builds and theorycrafting and thus 1 trait is in dominance does not automatically mean other traits are underpowered. you have to look at things from a broad perspective so decide if they op or not.
a 1000 damage skill against 18k resist oponent with all the buffs and only the buffs i mentioned would mean that without precise, critical, or sharpened being calculated in the skill will do 920 damage. lets use a non nb, using shadow mundus, precise weapons, shadow mundus, sharpened weapons, thief mundus precise weapons, and thief mundus sharpened weapons. we will assume 70% crit chance base, 77% with precise, 85 with thief, and 92 with both for critical. and base 75% crit damage boost and 93% with shadow.
thief + precise
noncrit 920 d
crit 1610 d
rms 1554.8 d
thief + sharpened
noncrit 1000 d
crit 1750 d
rms 1637
thus with thief mundus: ~5% difference in rms in favor of sharpened.
shadow + precise
noncrit 920 d
crit 1775 d
rms 1563 d
shadow + sharpened
noncrit 1000 d
crit 1930 d
rms 1651 d
thus with shadow mundus we see again ~5% rms in favor of sharpened with only about a 1% difference between thief/shadow in favor of shadow. but lets take this a step further, and suppose the other 5280 was garnered elsewhere
thus precise and sharpened face the same resist 0. which can be done. once that happens then precise takes sharpened spot. thus we see the traits are balanced, sharpened only rules off precise when you still facing resist. if resist is removed, the rms factor that crit gives pushes precise in lead, since we are at least 10 cp updates away from that, we can say that in probably 5 (when we reac750 cp cap, the traits will be in perfect harmony in pve. in pvp, there so many other factors that one cannot justify changing traits just to satisfy a few disatisfied players who rather complain and blame something other then themselves for thier inabilty to win on the pvp battlefield.
well off to bed i am 20m late to do so due to writing this.
Ok confirmed not a troll just doesn't get it.
2 -
montiferus✭✭✭✭✭Precise + DivinesOk lets start a new poll. What do the top PVE and PVP players run for their weapon traits when doing DPS.
1 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sharpened + ProsperousPeople simply dont get how F'ing OP the Sharp trait is. The trait on your weapon is far more important than your armor traits. One piece of armor is barely noticible. The first 600k VMA score was done with a well fitted shoulder for crying out loud.Seems 75% of you were wrong.
And a part of the 25% might just be trolling, but they are correct.
Don't get me wrong, I don't advertise the use of Prosperous. Divines is most definitely the BiS armor trait.
But this should get you a nice idea of just how overpowered Sharpened really is.
And now you just might realize why I advocate for a nerf.
not true, precise has never really been a dps trait, its a healer trait.
@AzuraKin
This is simply not true. Before they changed sharpened to a flat (and very large) penetration value, precise was better than sharpened in a trial involvement. That was the case for quite a while.
Now, it's Sharp or Nothing. The Sharp trait is the most OP thing in the game by a long shot, because every other trait is laughable in comparison for DPS, even in a perfect raid group. I dont care what set you have (VMA, whatever) in precise, it is not as good as a non-crafted sharp weapon. Period.
Edit: The best healer trait in PVE is Decisive. People wildly over heal anyway. Your job is to spit out ultimates, so Decisive is King at end game. For pure healing, Powered > Precise, but not by much.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on January 11, 2017 7:51PM4 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sharpened + Prosperouslolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »Obviously depends on the testing conditions. In a raid environment with alkosh, potl and >50% Major Force uptime precise+divines would win. In a pug where you maybe don't even have the major spell resist debuff on your target and don't get a single warhorn, I guess sharpend would be better.
@lolo_01b16_ESO
This is one of those scenarios where the math wizards (that dont actually play the game) will create a scenario on paper where precise is better than sharpened. This can be particularly easy to create (on paper) if you have a raid full of stam users all wearing support sets.
In reality, Competitive damage dealers in the best raid groups ALL run sharp because you just cant keep these scenarios up enough of the time for it to outweigh the flat damage of Sharpened. Sometimes math and the real world butt heads, and this is definitley one of those times. Also, competitive raids arent stacking stamina toons anyway.
In your scenario on a magic toon: 4884 (light armor), 5280 (major Breach). 3010 Alkosh, 1320 (POL AKA Minor Breach) = 14494 which is well short of the standard armor values of trial bosses, so Sharp Precise (Edited, Typo) in your scenario is not as good. There are other things that help, crusher glyph for example, but other than your light armor buff (and sharp weapon), you cant count on any of this stuff being up 100% of the time. Major Breech should be close on the boss, but certainly not on all trash. Trash makes up a huge percent of your total trial damage.
TLDR : Sharp is OP AF. Yes you can create scenarios on paper where precise is better, but you arent doing it for a full raid or even a full boss fight. Your precise weapon is a POS.
Edit: once we have enough CP, precise will overtake Sharp if they dont change anything, but we have a long way to go on that one.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on January 11, 2017 10:34PM4 -
Cryptical✭✭✭✭✭
✭And it continues to be overlooked...
The title is "Twice Born Wars: Precise+Divines vs Sharpened+Prosperous?"
That is:
Weapon trait + armor trait that buffs weapon effect
versus
Weapon trait + armor trait that buffs nothing.
The purpose was to scrutinize the weapon trait, but that buffing armor trait being INCONSISTENTLY included skews the calculations.
The result is like comparing the height of 2 kids on stilts, except one of the kids is also sometimes wearing super thick walking shoes.
Either have divines armor buffing ALL of the numbers or have it buffing NONE of the numbers. Nobody here will ever get a true measurement of the gap between sharpened and everything else until the other variables do not change from one build to the next.
Xbox NA0 -
Bobby_V_Rockit✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sharpened + ProsperousSooooo, I should use sharpened swords with TBS divines? How is crit only 64% though? I run TBS plus precise and my crit is either 74% with vigour or 82% with evil hunter...0 -
IronCrystal✭✭✭✭✭
✭Precise + DivinesBobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Sooooo, I should use sharpened swords with TBS divines? How is crit only 64% though? I run TBS plus precise and my crit is either 74% with vigour or 82% with evil hunter...
Crit chance is also modified by race (khajiit), how much medium armor you have, potions, and weapon type (daggers).Make PC NA raiding great again!
Down with drama!
What Mechanics Healer - Dro-m'Athra Destroyer
Homestead Raid Scores
vHRC 157,030
vAA 138,287
vSO 153,393
vMoL 154,550
Not raiding in Morrowind0 -
Cryptical✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Sooooo, I should use sharpened swords with TBS divines? How is crit only 64% though? I run TBS plus precise and my crit is either 74% with vigour or 82% with evil hunter...
Divines and precise form an extra buff to crit that doesn't exist with precise alone or divines alone.
Since part of the topic is how precise performs, that means divines has an impact that gives a buff inconsistently.Edited by Cryptical on January 11, 2017 8:06PMXbox NA0 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Sooooo, I should use sharpened swords with TBS divines? How is crit only 64% though? I run TBS plus precise and my crit is either 74% with vigour or 82% with evil hunter...
Divines and precise form an extra buff to crit that doesn't exist with precise alone or divines alone.
Since part of the topic is how precise performs, that means divines has an impact that gives a buff inconsistently.
Is this what you wanted?
Will this finally make you shut up?
Go troll some other thread.9 -
Cryptical✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Sooooo, I should use sharpened swords with TBS divines? How is crit only 64% though? I run TBS plus precise and my crit is either 74% with vigour or 82% with evil hunter...
Divines and precise form an extra buff to crit that doesn't exist with precise alone or divines alone.
Since part of the topic is how precise performs, that means divines has an impact that gives a buff inconsistently.
Is this what you wanted?
Will this finally make you shut up?
Go troll some other thread.
THAT gets your point about sharpened being wildly overpowered communicated to the audience!
THAT illustrates just how much of a gap exists between sharpened and precise, because it isn't being muddied by a completely irrelevant column.
Demanding some consistency when comparing A to B isn't trolling. It's like 2nd grade science class. If you couldn't see that...Edited by Cryptical on January 11, 2017 8:50PMXbox NA1 -
Danksta✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Sooooo, I should use sharpened swords with TBS divines? How is crit only 64% though? I run TBS plus precise and my crit is either 74% with vigour or 82% with evil hunter...
Sharpened daggers would probably be ideal.BawKinTackWarDs PS4/NA0