Twice Born Wars: Precise+Divines vs Sharpened+Prosperous?

anitajoneb17_ESO · January 2017

Sharpened + Prosperous

Dubhliam wrote: »

Seems 75% of you were wrong.
And a part of the 25% might just be trolling, but they are correct.

Don't get me wrong, I don't advertise the use of Prosperous. Divines is most definitely the BiS armor trait.
But this should get you a nice idea of just how overpowered Sharpened really is.

And now you just might realize why I advocate for a nerf.

I voted before reading the thread any further.
I voted sharpened and properous because of the way you asked the question. It was pretty obvious that the real answer would be the "unexpected one".
What do you suggest ? Sharpened being nerfed or mundus stones (or divines triat) buffed ?

idk · January 2017

Precise + Divines

@Dubhliam

What's the point of this worthless poll. The comparison is a complete joke and is meaningless.

Xerton · January 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@Dubhliam

What's the point of this worthless poll. The comparison is a complete joke and is meaningless.

And an other one that did not read the thread and doesn't get the point

G0ku · January 2017

AzuraKin wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Seems 75% of you were wrong.
And a part of the 25% might just be trolling, but they are correct.

Don't get me wrong, I don't advertise the use of Prosperous. Divines is most definitely the BiS armor trait.
But this should get you a nice idea of just how overpowered Sharpened really is.

And now you just might realize why I advocate for a nerf.

not true, precise has never really been a dps trait, its a healer trait.

not true, there was a point were precise was best in the earlier days

UrbanMonk · January 2017

Dubhliam wrote: »

Divines is just the tip of the DPS iceberg.
Sharpened IS the iceberg.

This line made my day.

Can't stop laughing.

kylewwefan · January 2017

Sharpened + Prosperous

Thanks for putting it out there. I have been trying to use a precise staff I have, but it still seems to underperform even compared to my V14 sharp master staff.

Pallio · January 2017

Regardless, sub 10k dps in a trial will get you booted.

Dubhliam · January 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@Dubhliam

What's the point of this worthless poll. The comparison is a complete joke and is meaningless.

A single trait can outperform 7 BiS gear traits combined with the second best weapon trait.

I'd say that comparison says a lot.

Izaki · January 2017

I laughed when I saw the title of the thread because reasons.

Cryptical · January 2017

Dubhliam wrote: »

Easy question.

If you have two exact builds;Twice Born Star with Thief and Shadow:
one wearing full light full divines gear + Precise Destro weapon,
one wearing full light full prosperous gear + Sharpened Destro weapon,
which do you think would have better DPS?

You've got more than one variable there. You're changing the armor and the weapon, while trying to make a point about the weapon.

Look at what you did again. In the first build, you wear twice born. In the second build, you change what you're wearing.

If you want to compare a sharpened weapon to a precise weapon, then you do not change the armor at all. Yet here, you are doing that.

I see what you are trying to do - illustrate how dominant the sharpened trait is - but you screwed up the impact of the message by starting out with crit armor for the precise weapon and an indifferent armor for the sharpened. You should have saved that for later, to be able to say something like 'even changing to twice born so you can get a mundus to buff both crit chance and damage does not match sharpened'.

Danksta · January 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@Dubhliam

What's the point of this worthless poll. The comparison is a complete joke and is meaningless.

It's pretty obvious the OP is trying to show how OP sharpened is.

Anhedonie · January 2017

Sharpened + Prosperous

Can't go against meta. Also Wrobel.

rotaugen454 · January 2017

Nerf Prosperous!

Dubhliam · January 2017

Cryptical wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Easy question.

If you have two exact builds;Twice Born Star with Thief and Shadow:
one wearing full light full divines gear + Precise Destro weapon,
one wearing full light full prosperous gear + Sharpened Destro weapon,
which do you think would have better DPS?

You've got more than one variable there. You're changing the armor and the weapon, while trying to make a point about the weapon.

Look at what you did again. In the first build, you wear twice born. In the second build, you change what you're wearing.

If you want to compare a sharpened weapon to a precise weapon, then you do not change the armor at all. Yet here, you are doing that.

I see what you are trying to do - illustrate how dominant the sharpened trait is - but you screwed up the impact of the message by starting out with crit armor for the precise weapon and an indifferent armor for the sharpened. You should have saved that for later, to be able to say something like 'even changing to twice born so you can get a mundus to buff both crit chance and damage does not match sharpened'.

It's the exact same armor.
Just swap Divines trait for anything else.

The point is... everybody knows that Sharpened will outperform Precise.
It's common knowledge.

But people usually can't grasp just how much more powerful Sharpened is.

This test was "rigged" to favor Precise.

You have 7 extra BiS gear traits to help Precise.
You have TBS: a BiS set that favors Critical, and benefits most from those BiS traits.
You have the maximum number of CPs allocated into Elfborn for more Critical.
You have Minor and Major Force to boost Critical even more

Yet still Sharpened outperforms.
I don't know what @Wrobel or @ZOS_RichLambert were thinking when they named this a "balancing" update.

I don't see much balance.

Dagoth_Rac · January 2017

Xerton wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Xerton wrote: »

A view basic values:
Boss basic resistance: 18200
Major Fracture: 5280
Minor Fracture: 1320
Crushing Enchantement (infused): 1112
Kra'gh: 1935
Alkosh: 3010
Sharpened: 5160 (2580 for 1h)
Base penetration: 100

Mitigation: 662 = 1%

I believe the 662 = 1% is for other players. NPCs are 500 = 1%.

Can you provide a source for this?
I am currently not at home and tbh not in the mood to test it myself

I don't think this is documented in a patch note anywhere. I got it from 2 places:

1). Asayre's spreadsheet to determine optimal CP allocation. It asks you to input boss armor, how much penetration you have, armor debuffs like NMG and Sunderflame, etc. It uses that as part of calculation to determine if you should put any points into Piercing star. And it treats 500 penetration/debuff as a reduction of 1% in boss' mitigation.

2). My own calculations testing on Trolls in Orsinium. With a Precise weapon, the damage they took compared to tooltip value was reduced by about 25%. With a Sharpened weapon, the damage they took compared to tooltip value was reduced by about 15%. Which matches up pretty close to 5160 / 500 = 10.32. If mobs had 662 armor = 1% mitigation, it would have been 5160 / 662 = 7.79%.

It seems like mobs are treated as Level 50 for armor purposes while players are treated as Level 66. Probably an artifact of VR16/CP160 gear that players wear. I assume NPCs just have a static armor/spell resist and do not actually "wear" gear that determines their stats.

I did all this testing pre-One Tamriel, though. It is possible things have changed in the interim.

AzuraKin · January 2017

Sharpened + Prosperous

Danksta wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@Dubhliam

What's the point of this worthless poll. The comparison is a complete joke and is meaningless.

It's pretty obvious the OP is trying to show how OP sharpened is.

not really, you comparing apples to oranges. here are the weapon traits, ill put in bold after each one thier focus.

Charged
Amethyst
Increases chance to apply status effects by:
110% 1H
220% 2H

increases chance to apply dw axe bleed, fire destro burning effect ect. possible may effect other procs though i have not tested that fact. good for anyone relying on bleeds/burning and similar effects.

Defending
Turquoise
Increases total Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance (scales with gear level) by:
420~2580 1H
840~5160 2H

good for tanks and front line support dps and healers

Infused
Jade
Reduces enchantment's cooldown 40%
+
Increase Weapon Enchantment effect by:
20.0%

good for people trying to get extra bang out of thier enchants. good for all roles in situations like pvp.

Nirnhoned
Potent Nirncrux
Increases Weapon Damage:
11% 1H
11% 2H

good for dps in pvp that utilize weapon attacks.

Powered
Chysolite
Increases healing done by:
3.5% 1H
7.0% 2H

good for dedicated healers.

Precise
Ruby
Increase Weapon and Spell Critical values by:
3.5% 1H
7% 2H

good for support healers and combo dps/heals.

Sharpened
Fire Opal
Increase Armor and Spell Penetration (scales with gear level) by:
420~2580 1H
840~5160 2H

for anti-resist dps. good for situations when you cannot count on all resist being removed. especially strong vs tanks.

Training
Carnelian
Increases experience gained from kills
by:
4.5% 1H
9.0% 2H

good for skill and cp xp grinding.

Decisive
Citrine
Chance to gain 1 additional Ultimate
anytime that Ultimate is gained:
17% 1H
34% 2H

good for tanks to replenish ultimates.

Edziu · January 2017

full prosperous + training weapon

Dubhliam · January 2017

@AzuraKin

What I am comparing here are Best traits for damage dealers.
Three candidates are: Sharpened, Precise and Nirnhoned.

And Sharpened beats, rock, scissors, and paper combined.

Joy_Division · January 2017

Sharpened + Prosperous

AzuraKin wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@Dubhliam

What's the point of this worthless poll. The comparison is a complete joke and is meaningless.

It's pretty obvious the OP is trying to show how OP sharpened is.

not really, you comparing apples to oranges. here are the weapon traits, ill put in bold after each one thier focus.

Charged
Amethyst
Increases chance to apply status effects by:
110% 1H
220% 2H

increases chance to apply dw axe bleed, fire destro burning effect ect. possible may effect other procs though i have not tested that fact. good for anyone relying on bleeds/burning and similar effects.

Defending
Turquoise
Increases total Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance (scales with gear level) by:
420~2580 1H
840~5160 2H

good for tanks and front line support dps and healers

Infused
Jade
Reduces enchantment's cooldown 40%
+
Increase Weapon Enchantment effect by:
20.0%

good for people trying to get extra bang out of thier enchants. good for all roles in situations like pvp.

Nirnhoned
Potent Nirncrux
Increases Weapon Damage:
11% 1H
11% 2H

good for dps in pvp that utilize weapon attacks.

Powered
Chysolite
Increases healing done by:
3.5% 1H
7.0% 2H

good for dedicated healers.

Precise
Ruby
Increase Weapon and Spell Critical values by:
3.5% 1H
7% 2H

good for support healers and combo dps/heals.

Sharpened
Fire Opal
Increase Armor and Spell Penetration (scales with gear level) by:
420~2580 1H
840~5160 2H

for anti-resist dps. good for situations when you cannot count on all resist being removed. especially strong vs tanks.

Training
Carnelian
Increases experience gained from kills
by:
4.5% 1H
9.0% 2H

good for skill and cp xp grinding.

Decisive
Citrine
Chance to gain 1 additional Ultimate
anytime that Ultimate is gained:
17% 1H
34% 2H

good for tanks to replenish ultimates.

The sad part is this is probably what ZoS thinks...

Dubhliam · January 2017

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Seems 75% of you were wrong.
And a part of the 25% might just be trolling, but they are correct.

Don't get me wrong, I don't advertise the use of Prosperous. Divines is most definitely the BiS armor trait.
But this should get you a nice idea of just how overpowered Sharpened really is.

And now you just might realize why I advocate for a nerf.

I voted before reading the thread any further.
I voted sharpened and properous because of the way you asked the question. It was pretty obvious that the real answer would be the "unexpected one".
What do you suggest ? Sharpened being nerfed or mundus stones (or divines triat) buffed ?

Tell me...
If a car manufacturer makes a 3 meter wide car, do you:

a) adjust all roads to be able to accommodate 3m wide cars
b) tell the manufacturer to rework the car to fit the roads

There is nothing wrong with Mundus stones.
There is nothing wrong with Precise.

They made a big mistake when they reworked Sharpened to have a fixed value (along with Defending - also a mistake).
Honestly, I am genuinely surprised it managed to stay this way for almost a year, and it will probably stay this way since nothing is done about it in this "balance update".

It's as if they deliberately made only one trait far superior (to prolong the longevity of the game via grind) or they have absolutely no idea how the damage calculation in their game works.

This is my suggestion from a previous thread:

Dubhliam wrote: »

In my opinion, Sharpened should be reworked to state:
"ignores 20% of the target's resistances (10% for one handed weapons)"

In PvE, those values would be 3700 resistance.
Against high armor targets in PvP, those values would go all the way up to 6400 ignored resistances for 32k armor targets.

Just for comparison, the trait would be just as useful as it is today against players with 25800 resistance, and would only gain more power against tanks.

Dawnblade · January 2017

Thanks for some of the math posted in this thread (I hate hearing 'just use X because it is better' without some measurement to represent 'better'), interesting to see that even in a perfect world scenario with zero resistance, sharpened pushes close to 5% better than the next best, and in normal world scenarios is closer to 10% better.

I don't know what kind of balance this game has historically seen or what the developers consider 'close enough', but a 5% - 10% difference in performance based on using the best versus the second best trait on ONE item seems pretty ridiculous.

Also are there any really good resources available with the math behind everything and / or the ability to sim a character and various builds / gear to see how different changes affect potential performance?

I ask because most 'build' or fan sites seem to be full of fancy names and videos for a build like 'The Dominator' with a bunch of pretty pictures and a 'use this gear' and 'use these abilities' without any real math provided as to why certain gear / abilities / CP / etc are selected over others.

@AzuraKin The list you provided is exactly what I'm talking about with regard to most 'information' I find, that is a list with a bunch of words but no numbers / math provided to allow for a comparison between abilities / gear / traits /etc.

At its core, the game is based on math and numbers, so providing a list of words and phrases to describe affects without providing actual numbers is useless in evaluating and comparing traits, especially when the topic is around which traits produce the most damage (a math problem - not a writing / reading comprehension problem).

AzuraKin · January 2017

Sharpened + Prosperous

Dawnblade wrote: »

Thanks for some of the math posted in this thread (I hate hearing 'just use X because it is better' without some measurement to represent 'better'), interesting to see that even in a perfect world scenario with zero resistance, sharpened pushes close to 5% better than the next best, and in normal world scenarios is closer to 10% better.

I don't know what kind of balance this game has historically seen or what the developers consider 'close enough', but a 5% - 10% difference in performance based on using the best versus the second best trait on ONE item seems pretty ridiculous.

Also are there any really good resources available with the math behind everything and / or the ability to sim a character and various builds / gear to see how different changes affect potential performance?

I ask because most 'build' or fan sites seem to be full of fancy names and videos for a build like 'The Dominator' with a bunch of pretty pictures and a 'use this gear' and 'use these abilities' without any real math provided as to why certain gear / abilities / CP / etc are selected over others.

@AzuraKin The list you provided is exactly what I'm talking about with regard to most 'information' I find, that is a list with a bunch of words but no numbers / math provided to allow for a comparison between abilities / gear / traits /etc.

At its core, the game is based on math and numbers, so providing a list of words and phrases to describe affects without providing actual numbers is useless in evaluating and comparing traits, especially when the topic is around which traits produce the most damage (a math problem - not a writing / reading comprehension problem).

you want math? go calculate the numbers yourself. stop being a lazy *** who complains about mechanics being out of whack when you do not even understand the mechanics of the system you are complaining about. yes sharpened allows dps to do significantly more dps then precise, but precise and powered are so close together the small difference in RMS is minimal. thus we see here that precise is obviously intended to be a healer's trait not a damage trait.

Dawnblade · January 2017

AzuraKin wrote: »

Dawnblade wrote: »

Thanks for some of the math posted in this thread (I hate hearing 'just use X because it is better' without some measurement to represent 'better'), interesting to see that even in a perfect world scenario with zero resistance, sharpened pushes close to 5% better than the next best, and in normal world scenarios is closer to 10% better.

I don't know what kind of balance this game has historically seen or what the developers consider 'close enough', but a 5% - 10% difference in performance based on using the best versus the second best trait on ONE item seems pretty ridiculous.

Also are there any really good resources available with the math behind everything and / or the ability to sim a character and various builds / gear to see how different changes affect potential performance?

I ask because most 'build' or fan sites seem to be full of fancy names and videos for a build like 'The Dominator' with a bunch of pretty pictures and a 'use this gear' and 'use these abilities' without any real math provided as to why certain gear / abilities / CP / etc are selected over others.

@AzuraKin The list you provided is exactly what I'm talking about with regard to most 'information' I find, that is a list with a bunch of words but no numbers / math provided to allow for a comparison between abilities / gear / traits /etc.

At its core, the game is based on math and numbers, so providing a list of words and phrases to describe affects without providing actual numbers is useless in evaluating and comparing traits, especially when the topic is around which traits produce the most damage (a math problem - not a writing / reading comprehension problem).

you want math? go calculate the numbers yourself. stop being a lazy *** who complains about mechanics being out of whack when you do not even understand the mechanics of the system you are complaining about. yes sharpened allows dps to do significantly more dps then precise, but precise and powered are so close together the small difference in RMS is minimal. thus we see here that precise is obviously intended to be a healer's trait not a damage trait.

Defensive much?

All I did was state that posting opinions (or using the words on the traits to show how they are useful in certain situations) in a thread attempting to show how sharpened is over-performing with respect to traits and their effects on damage doesn't add much to the conversation - we can all read and see that things like the training trait is good for grinding XP and not for maximizing damage.

By the way, do you have any actual data to refute the posts showing how large of a gap there is between traits with respect to damage?

If not and / or if you agree with the data regarding the gap, do you believe such a gap / disparity between traits should exist?

As far as I can tell, you are the one who doesn't understand the mechanics at play and is unwilling or unable to calculate the differences (you'll note I actually asked where to find resources to do so while you continue to use words such as 'significantly' while making personal attacks instead of providing data).

Or maybe you were stating an opinion that the difference in potential damage performance between traits doesn't matter - which is a valid opinion to hold, but doesn't change the facts with respect to a gap existing or change the size of the gap.

FleetwoodSmack · January 2017

Dawnblade wrote: »

AzuraKin wrote: »

Dawnblade wrote: »

Thanks for some of the math posted in this thread (I hate hearing 'just use X because it is better' without some measurement to represent 'better'), interesting to see that even in a perfect world scenario with zero resistance, sharpened pushes close to 5% better than the next best, and in normal world scenarios is closer to 10% better.

I don't know what kind of balance this game has historically seen or what the developers consider 'close enough', but a 5% - 10% difference in performance based on using the best versus the second best trait on ONE item seems pretty ridiculous.

Also are there any really good resources available with the math behind everything and / or the ability to sim a character and various builds / gear to see how different changes affect potential performance?

I ask because most 'build' or fan sites seem to be full of fancy names and videos for a build like 'The Dominator' with a bunch of pretty pictures and a 'use this gear' and 'use these abilities' without any real math provided as to why certain gear / abilities / CP / etc are selected over others.

@AzuraKin The list you provided is exactly what I'm talking about with regard to most 'information' I find, that is a list with a bunch of words but no numbers / math provided to allow for a comparison between abilities / gear / traits /etc.

At its core, the game is based on math and numbers, so providing a list of words and phrases to describe affects without providing actual numbers is useless in evaluating and comparing traits, especially when the topic is around which traits produce the most damage (a math problem - not a writing / reading comprehension problem).

you want math? go calculate the numbers yourself. stop being a lazy *** who complains about mechanics being out of whack when you do not even understand the mechanics of the system you are complaining about. yes sharpened allows dps to do significantly more dps then precise, but precise and powered are so close together the small difference in RMS is minimal. thus we see here that precise is obviously intended to be a healer's trait not a damage trait.

Defensive much?

All I did was state that posting opinions (or using the words on the traits to show how they are useful in certain situations) in a thread attempting to show how sharpened is over-performing with respect to traits and their effects on damage doesn't add much to the conversation - we can all read and see that things like the training trait is good for grinding XP and not for maximizing damage.

By the way, do you have any actual data to refute the posts showing how large of a gap there is between traits with respect to damage?

If not and / or if you agree with the data regarding the gap, do you believe such a gap / disparity between traits should exist?

As far as I can tell, you are the one who doesn't understand the mechanics at play and is unwilling or unable to calculate the differences (you'll note I actually asked where to find resources to do so while you continue to use words such as 'significantly' while making personal attacks instead of providing data), and / or you just don't care how large a difference exists.

I pretty much have to agree with this. The reason being is because I see people on the forum and in game quite often complaining to someone who asks why they should use sharpened. The answer the noob gets? "Because it's just better." No information to go on, nothing that they can process. They're new. Do people think that new players should immediately know something they have a question to?

I remember a time when theorycrafters used to actually theorycraft. Where they'd put their builds online saying WHY they reached this build and opened it up for constructive criticism based around the idea for the build. Not because some streamers say it's good. People running around in PvE with PvP builds that can't keep up with what's going on around them is another side-effect of this mentality. Most newer people I see just run ONE type of armor set without shifting armor traits, potions, or abilities. Impen doesn't save you when you're smacking Velidreth. Divines doesn't save you from getting oneshotted most of the time in Cyrodiil. Yet people think they do.

So if you don't want to math for someone, that's fine. But don't answer someone's question and treat them like they're crap when they ask why you're using what you're using after the fact.

AzuraKin · January 2017

Sharpened + Prosperous

G0ku wrote: »

AzuraKin wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Seems 75% of you were wrong.
And a part of the 25% might just be trolling, but they are correct.

Don't get me wrong, I don't advertise the use of Prosperous. Divines is most definitely the BiS armor trait.
But this should get you a nice idea of just how overpowered Sharpened really is.

And now you just might realize why I advocate for a nerf.

not true, precise has never really been a dps trait, its a healer trait.

not true, there was a point were precise was best in the earlier days

maybe in pve, but even now if you have the right team you dont need sharpened as stamina dps. you can always find exemptions. the biggest issue people seem to have is they want the 1 set to rule them all. they forget, style of play, who you fighting against determines how effective a build can be. for example i can go into pvp with all divine 5p light armor precise weapons and 1vx people. there is no you must have this and nothing else, builds in this game need to be focused on a particular role situations and you should have in a group various types of builds regardless of role. for example. my main spellsword runs 2 sets of dw weaposn as magicka, 1 sharpened, 1 precise as one is for damage reliant healing and the other is for more often crits on non damage dependent heals. sadly the toon is now no longer fully optimized thanks to a hidden nerf to nightlades that elminate the usefulness of critting nb team heal abilities. but that will be fixed anyway if i ever get new set i wanna replace my gear with for pvp. and that is the crux of the matter. people are too fixated on perfect sets rather then figuring out thier playstyle, and what traits are best for them.

Vaoh · January 2017

Sharpened + Prosperous

Want to know the sad part? This was an easy decision.

Sharpened > Precise > Nirnhoned

The margins between them are quite large. Next patch Sharpened actually becomes more powerful since Critical hit builds (Precise) are getting nerfs.

Also, some people say Precise is better if you get a bosses resistance to zero. Understand that in order to get a boss to zero resistance, it is both inconvenient and requires either the Sharpened trait or many weak stacked sets that do not have 100% uptime. You lose lots of damage before the boss even gets there. Running all your DPS with Sharpened and BiS DPS sets is still better.

Sharpened is just too strong.

Cryptical · January 2017

Dubhliam wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Easy question.

If you have two exact builds;Twice Born Star with Thief and Shadow:
one wearing full light full divines gear + Precise Destro weapon,
one wearing full light full prosperous gear + Sharpened Destro weapon,
which do you think would have better DPS?

You've got more than one variable there. You're changing the armor and the weapon, while trying to make a point about the weapon.

Look at what you did again. In the first build, you wear twice born. In the second build, you change what you're wearing.

If you want to compare a sharpened weapon to a precise weapon, then you do not change the armor at all. Yet here, you are doing that.

I see what you are trying to do - illustrate how dominant the sharpened trait is - but you screwed up the impact of the message by starting out with crit armor for the precise weapon and an indifferent armor for the sharpened. You should have saved that for later, to be able to say something like 'even changing to twice born so you can get a mundus to buff both crit chance and damage does not match sharpened'.

It's the exact same armor.
Just swap Divines trait for anything else.

The point is... everybody knows that Sharpened will outperform Precise.
It's common knowledge.

But people usually can't grasp just how much more powerful Sharpened is.

This test was "rigged" to favor Precise.
You have 7 extra BiS gear traits to help Precise.

You have TBS: a BiS set that favors Critical, and benefits most from those BiS traits.

You have the maximum number of CPs allocated into Elfborn for more Critical.

You have Minor and Major Force to boost Critical even more

Yet still Sharpened outperforms.
I don't know what @Wrobel or @ZOS_RichLambert were thinking when they named this a "balancing" update.

I don't see much balance.

No, it's not the same base upon which to compare sharpened weapon to a precise weapon.

Twice born means 2 mundus. Switching the trait of the armor from divine to something else means you are changing the size of the effect of the mundus.

Twice born with something else means the basic mundus buff is applied to weapon X. Twice born with divines means a much larger mundus buff is being applied.

Changing the trait of the armor has an effect here.

Don't believe me? Try this - go kill something with twice born divines thief shadow and any weapon you want. Then change to twice born prosperous thief shadow and kill the same mob with the same weapon. You will find that the size of your mundus buffs has gotten smaller because the trait of the armor has an impact in this experiment.

That's how you do a factual comparison, change ONE element at a time.

Dubhliam · January 2017

Cryptical wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Easy question.

If you have two exact builds;Twice Born Star with Thief and Shadow:
one wearing full light full divines gear + Precise Destro weapon,
one wearing full light full prosperous gear + Sharpened Destro weapon,
which do you think would have better DPS?

You've got more than one variable there. You're changing the armor and the weapon, while trying to make a point about the weapon.

Look at what you did again. In the first build, you wear twice born. In the second build, you change what you're wearing.

If you want to compare a sharpened weapon to a precise weapon, then you do not change the armor at all. Yet here, you are doing that.

I see what you are trying to do - illustrate how dominant the sharpened trait is - but you screwed up the impact of the message by starting out with crit armor for the precise weapon and an indifferent armor for the sharpened. You should have saved that for later, to be able to say something like 'even changing to twice born so you can get a mundus to buff both crit chance and damage does not match sharpened'.

It's the exact same armor.
Just swap Divines trait for anything else.

The point is... everybody knows that Sharpened will outperform Precise.
It's common knowledge.

But people usually can't grasp just how much more powerful Sharpened is.

This test was "rigged" to favor Precise.
You have 7 extra BiS gear traits to help Precise.

You have TBS: a BiS set that favors Critical, and benefits most from those BiS traits.

You have the maximum number of CPs allocated into Elfborn for more Critical.

You have Minor and Major Force to boost Critical even more

Yet still Sharpened outperforms.
I don't know what @Wrobel or @ZOS_RichLambert were thinking when they named this a "balancing" update.

I don't see much balance.

No, it's not the same base upon which to compare sharpened weapon to a precise weapon.

Twice born means 2 mundus. Switching the trait of the armor from divine to something else means you are changing the size of the effect of the mundus.

Twice born with something else means the basic mundus buff is applied to weapon X. Twice born with divines means a much larger mundus buff is being applied.

Changing the trait of the armor has an effect here.

Don't believe me? Try this - go kill something with twice born divines thief shadow and any weapon you want. Then change to twice born prosperous thief shadow and kill the same mob with the same weapon. You will find that the size of your mundus buffs has gotten smaller because the trait of the armor has an impact in this experiment.

That's how you do a factual comparison, change ONE element at a time.

Did you even go through this thread @Cryptical ?
There is a graph with Sharpened + Divines comparison

AzuraKin · January 2017

Sharpened + Prosperous

Dawnblade wrote: »

AzuraKin wrote: »

Dawnblade wrote: »

Thanks for some of the math posted in this thread (I hate hearing 'just use X because it is better' without some measurement to represent 'better'), interesting to see that even in a perfect world scenario with zero resistance, sharpened pushes close to 5% better than the next best, and in normal world scenarios is closer to 10% better.

I don't know what kind of balance this game has historically seen or what the developers consider 'close enough', but a 5% - 10% difference in performance based on using the best versus the second best trait on ONE item seems pretty ridiculous.

Also are there any really good resources available with the math behind everything and / or the ability to sim a character and various builds / gear to see how different changes affect potential performance?

I ask because most 'build' or fan sites seem to be full of fancy names and videos for a build like 'The Dominator' with a bunch of pretty pictures and a 'use this gear' and 'use these abilities' without any real math provided as to why certain gear / abilities / CP / etc are selected over others.

@AzuraKin The list you provided is exactly what I'm talking about with regard to most 'information' I find, that is a list with a bunch of words but no numbers / math provided to allow for a comparison between abilities / gear / traits /etc.

At its core, the game is based on math and numbers, so providing a list of words and phrases to describe affects without providing actual numbers is useless in evaluating and comparing traits, especially when the topic is around which traits produce the most damage (a math problem - not a writing / reading comprehension problem).

you want math? go calculate the numbers yourself. stop being a lazy *** who complains about mechanics being out of whack when you do not even understand the mechanics of the system you are complaining about. yes sharpened allows dps to do significantly more dps then precise, but precise and powered are so close together the small difference in RMS is minimal. thus we see here that precise is obviously intended to be a healer's trait not a damage trait.

Defensive much?

All I did was state that posting opinions (or using the words on the traits to show how they are useful in certain situations) in a thread attempting to show how sharpened is over-performing with respect to traits and their effects on damage doesn't add much to the conversation - we can all read and see that things like the training trait is good for grinding XP and not for maximizing damage.

By the way, do you have any actual data to refute the posts showing how large of a gap there is between traits with respect to damage?

If not and / or if you agree with the data regarding the gap, do you believe such a gap / disparity between traits should exist?

As far as I can tell, you are the one who doesn't understand the mechanics at play and is unwilling or unable to calculate the differences (you'll note I actually asked where to find resources to do so while you continue to use words such as 'significantly' while making personal attacks instead of providing data).

Or maybe you were stating an opinion that the difference in potential damage performance between traits doesn't matter - which is a valid opinion to hold, but doesn't change the facts with respect to a gap existing or change the size of the gap.

i cannot say on what the specific gap on ones like charged as i do not use effects for dps thus i have never tested them. but i would say they have very specific targeted nitches as with most traits. people think too much in a box. and no i dont need to post numbers as you can do that work yourself. its not hard to see changes to your damage with different traits. you just gotta be willing to put some work into learning them. and to be frank, if you not willing to put in the work to see how different traits work what they effect and where they can be useful, how can you complain they are not balanced? for example based on the wording of the charged trait, it should boost the chance of burning spellweave 5p effect by 220% putting it to 64% chance to proc every 12s. this nets a fire mage dps 600 spell damage for 8s every 12s or a RMS of 400 spell power. though i have not actually tested it, but theoretically it should due to it boosting effect chance. its things like that you have to be aware of when trying to decide if things are balanced or imbalanced. many players who complain about somthing are reacting to thier low success rate with thier build when they have maybe a few months of experience. i was something around 6-8 months before i had a solid grasp on my nb, almost the same period on learning my templar. now i dont mean simple learning to play i mean mastering, being a challenge to take down in pvp, ect. any good game you not gonna be good overnight. you gotta learn basics, master the toon, and then keep up with the changes and relearn and master each time. traits may change from time to time, and best trait will depend on your style and role. for example i have 2 templar healers. 1 is heavily focused on crit and moderate regen (2200), the other is low on crit but heavily focused on regen (4k+) both are viable healers, but they have different focus' for thier healing, one can sit ther and spam bol nearly all day without heavy attacks and very moderate if any potion use, the other cannot spam bol as long but crits a lot more often, thus making her more effective in other areas like repentance. its all about focus of your toon. and sadly as long as you look to others for answers you will be dependent on others for what traits you use. the traits they like, will be what you use. on the otherhand if you do the work figure things out you will come up with unique build traits fit to your playstyle. for example i use both precise and sharpened on my mageblade main toon because single target i need the extra penetration as it boosts damage and healing both from funnel health as well as entropy and impale plus whatever skill i am using in 4th slot on that bar, on the otherhand i dont really need the pierce for adds, thus for my 2nd bar i use precise as that is my aoe bar, sap essence, m. detonation, teleport strike, meteor. what this does is it boost my healing to team mates, and also if i using meteor in a single target situation by the time it hits after i cast it, i can weapon swap to single target bar for the penetration. conversely on my stamblade, i only interested in sharpened as i cannot rely on tank putting all the armor debuffs to eliminate the need for sharpened to get through armor. its a matter of knowing your toon, knowing your enemy and plannning effectively. most likely for my stamblade i will be aquiring gear for pvp for a tank buster role, in where i will penetrate with help of a teammate, nearly 40,000 armor. i wont be the strongest against softer targets, but tanky builds will hate me when i tear through their stamina for blocking and all thier armor resist.

mr_wazzabi · January 2017

Sharpened + Prosperous

@Dubhliam instead of nerfing sharpened, I would rather they buff precise and nirnhoned.

Buff precise to something like 10% crit and nirnhoned to 15-20% extra damage.

Right now precise is 7% crit and nirnhoned is 11% damage, which are not enough to match sharpened.