Why do PVP get all the blame for nerfs.

kuro-dono · January 2017

why ppl cry about pve so much when its already so easy to fight scripted npc:s/bosses/mobs?

Victoria_Marquis · January 2017

On every game that is an MMO we have always said that PvP and PvE should be on different skill sets.

For PvP when you enter your skills, gear, level and stats should all be the same, from mage to tank. Every spell, every attack skill dose the exact same amount of damage, the armor as well should be on equal value... No more one shot kills on anyone.
In this way victory is not on how much elite gear you have, but how good of a player you are....

Historically PvP always kills the PvE in a game with nirfs to the point where solo play is impossible, what use to be a survivable mob becomes a multiple groups to kill.

RazorCaltrops · January 2017

kuro-dono wrote: »

why ppl cry about pve so much when its already so easy to fight scripted npc:s/bosses/mobs?

And then a twilight with 80.9m health appears.

nordsavage · January 2017

Mostly PvP'ers come to the forums. Most of the threads are about PvP nerfs. If you go in game and ask what people think about the changes coming regarding PvE most are not happy.

vamp_emily · January 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

vamp_emily wrote: »

I think PvP players are to blame for most nerfs. A few examples would be "proc sets" and "Radiant". How many times have you seen, on the forum, a PvP cry about proc sets, or Radiant"?

Nah, if the nerf was for the PVP crowd, procs would have been included in battle-spirit - probably with a greater % dmg reduction, or perhaps more sets working like vicious death - proccing only on mobs, not players - and Radient wouldn't have been a dmg decrease - it would have been either a range reduction or allowing it to be dodged - neither of which would have impacted PVP. Despite what people think, ZOS are NOT stupid. They made these changes with the full knowledge that they were impacting PVE - and would only do that if they considered that it was the right thing to do.

I didn't say they gave you what you wanted. How many times have the nerf been exactly what you asked for?

PvP players cried and ESO reviewed the situation. If PvP players came to the forum and said something like "OMG Proc sets are soo cool!" and there were many threads on it. Do you really think they would have nerfed it? I don't think so.

Biro123 · January 2017

nordsavage wrote: »

Mostly PvP'ers come to the forums. Most of the threads are about PvP nerfs. If you go in game and ask what people think about the changes coming regarding PvE most are not happy.

And perhaps, just perhaps if ZOS listened to the PVPers as you seem to think they do - then the PVP nerf threads would stop? The truth is, they don't listen - which is why the threads still abound. All we get is changes which are 80% PVE balance, 20% PVP balance - and a bunch of PVE-ers blaming PVPers for the 80%?? wtf?

zuto40 · January 2017

Pallio wrote: »

Go back and read the whine posts from pvp primary complaints:

Proc sets
Templar execute
Destro ult.

Those tears have been dried now, heavy keeps people alive too long and had very little whining posts, the things that people die to create the most tears.

Proc sets are still a problem, impen pretty much already ruined crits and the destro ult actually does more with a lightening staff now, PvP players were almost 100% ignored with the nerfs

Isellskooma · January 2017

Zenimax, please add a trial boss named "Why Wrobel". Make it increase cost of Magicka and stamina abilitys by 60%, applies 7m shield, blocks 50% of all dmg hitting him, heals himself 25m health for 6 secs, randomly chooses 6 people to one shot with out telling them (6 second cooldown), has dodge chance, can purify anything off him.

Please Zenimax add this boss.

Biro123 · January 2017

vamp_emily wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

vamp_emily wrote: »

I think PvP players are to blame for most nerfs. A few examples would be "proc sets" and "Radiant". How many times have you seen, on the forum, a PvP cry about proc sets, or Radiant"?

Nah, if the nerf was for the PVP crowd, procs would have been included in battle-spirit - probably with a greater % dmg reduction, or perhaps more sets working like vicious death - proccing only on mobs, not players - and Radient wouldn't have been a dmg decrease - it would have been either a range reduction or allowing it to be dodged - neither of which would have impacted PVP. Despite what people think, ZOS are NOT stupid. They made these changes with the full knowledge that they were impacting PVE - and would only do that if they considered that it was the right thing to do.

I didn't say they gave you what you wanted. How many times have the nerf been exactly what you asked for?

PvP players cried and ESO reviewed the situation. If PvP players came to the forum and said something like "OMG Proc sets are soo cool!" and there were many threads on it. Do you really think they would have nerfed it? I don't think so.

I still don't see how this is a problem.. If its a PVPer who spots an imbalance - and ZOS adjusts it, how is it worse than a PVEer spotting the imbalance? or nobody spotting it and the game stays imbalanced?

It just happens that with PVPers being on the receiving end as well as the dishing-out end of skills/sets, they are generally more sensitive to certain types of imbalances. Just because a PVPer spotted the imbalance doesn't mean it isn't an imbalance in PVE too. In fact, the proc change suggests to me that while PVPers spotted the problem, ZOS decided that it was a BIGGER imbalance in PVE (based on their solution) - you should be thanking the PVPers for finding such a large PVE balance issue.

Pallio · January 2017

1st boss in vVOM is pretty close.

vamp_emily · January 2017

Isellskooma wrote: »

Zenimax, please add a trial boss named "Why Wrobel". Make it drain stamina, applies 7m shield, blocks 50% of all dmg hitting him, heals himself 25m health for 6 secs, randomly chooses 6 people to one shot with out telling them (6 second cooldown)

That sounds cool, and have Wrobel drop nothing but training gear

EvilCroc · January 2017

Cuz PvP is a cancer.

Grabmoore · January 2017

kuro-dono wrote: »

pve in eso is already so easy thats unbeliviable. all you need is control your char, use your mega elite e peen honed skills, and you solo everything. pvp actually requires skill. to wreck 50 ppl, you need real skills. to solo keeps, you need good rotation, some luck and good situational awareness. no wonder its... PVE < PVP. AFTERALL, THIS GAME WAS PROMOTED AS AN PVP GAME, NOT PVE.

You are correct that most vet dungeons are very easy. That's obvious.

However you are wrong in all other aspects you wrote. In PvP you dont need skill, you need gear!

This game has been promoted as an elder scrolls (=single player ) game with friends. AvA has been added as a small element. They could remove it and the majority of todays population would still play the game.

As fact I can tell you 12 friends of mine who recently started, they all love the game. Neither of them wants to do PvP at all. On the same side ,they came from overwatch and cs/DotA. So they have the will to compete.

@op: PvP players are the reason for the recent nerfs. Just because the Devs did the worst job on this patch since release - that comes from a "white knight"- that doesn't change the fact that all changes were made to balance PvP.

Be it AoE caps , vamp changes or the proc Set nerf. They just did it entirely wrong -_-

Dev · January 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

People really need to stop blaming PVPers for their own shortcomings all the time

These nerfs are because of pvp tears, and just because zos didnt give you what you cried for doesnt make it not your fault.
People should also stop avoiding responsibility when their demographic has caused nothing but inconvenience to everyone else.

i always love how pvp players will cry for nerfs, then when the game company implements changes on their behalf, the pvp player will try to disavow that it was their fault.

Then the pvp player will get on a soapbox and preach how easy everything else is in the game except 'their' chosen content.
How they are the champions for balance, that they should be the stick for which all else is measured... and all the nerfs everyone has to suffer through is just so a pvper can teabag someone...

This and most other nerfs in the entire history of this game (as well as other mmorpgs w/ pvp ) has been because of pvp. it is a fact and the only people who think it is anything else also happen to be the same group responsible.

Look at the mmos that have done well: WOW, FFXI, FFXIV versus the games that failed or are failing, like eso (sorry but when you go from p2p > b2p > cash scam crates in under 3 years, the label applies)
The ones that are still succeeding as in bringing in and retaining customers, have separated pvp from pve.

Jimbullbee85 · January 2017

Because at the moment it's the competitive aspect of PVP that determines the balance mechanics for the entire game. In reality it's not at the fault of gamers for the way nerfing effects PVE it's the fault of the developers for not distinguishing between the two. The Radiant oppression nerf was way overdue in PvP but because nerfs like this arent isolated to pvp alone there's alot of angry PvErs who are feeling the effects in dungeons/trials and mealstrom. It's the same for removing crits on set procs. We shouldn't blame PvP players, it's ZOS's fault for the way they manage PvP.

DurzoBlint13 · January 2017

"the squeaky wheel gets the grease" ever heard that expression? It is what is happening here. The vocal minority always think they are the majority. The things that get complained about the most are what get looked at by ZOS...... but whether or not anything gets changed is all up to ZOS.

Biro123 · January 2017

Well, I remember them making a big thing of marketing it for 3-way realm vs realm combat with keep sieges, destructible walls, massive battles etc..

They were definitely taking after the DAOC realm vs realm and targeting players who did that and have been looking for it ever since.

You may not have paid much attention to it, but the game definitely WAS initially marketed as having a PVP endgame.

kuro-dono · January 2017

Grabmoore wrote: »

kuro-dono wrote: »

pve in eso is already so easy thats unbeliviable. all you need is control your char, use your mega elite e peen honed skills, and you solo everything. pvp actually requires skill. to wreck 50 ppl, you need real skills. to solo keeps, you need good rotation, some luck and good situational awareness. no wonder its... PVE < PVP. AFTERALL, THIS GAME WAS PROMOTED AS AN PVP GAME, NOT PVE.

You are correct that most vet dungeons are very easy. That's obvious.

However you are wrong in all other aspects you wrote. In PvP you dont need skill, you need gear!

This game has been promoted as an elder scrolls (=single player ) game with friends. AvA has been added as a small element. They could remove it and the majority of todays population would still play the game.

As fact I can tell you 12 friends of mine who recently started, they all love the game. Neither of them wants to do PvP at all. On the same side ,they came from overwatch and cs/DotA. So they have the will to compete.

@op: PvP players are the reason for the recent nerfs. Just because the Devs did the worst job on this patch since release - that comes from a "white knight"- that doesn't change the fact that all changes were made to balance PvP.

Be it AoE caps , vamp changes or the proc Set nerf. They just did it entirely wrong -_-

pvp is easy. form group of max 12 for maximum ap benefit. 2-4 templar, 6-8 sorc and 1-2 nightblade. sorcs slot destro ulti, templar breath of life heal, healing spring, and healing ulti, nightblade fears, templars run also purge, nightblades and some stamina sorc run rapid maunever.

DID YOU KNOW? most proraids dont use dps proc sets. only gankers and ridiculous tanks do. not organized raids. tho this is from point of azura star, not trueflame.

sadly. ppl seek to benefit their cause more than anyone else. as long as it doesnt hurt my playstyle, i wont whine. so if something hurts specific style of theirs, they whine.

ppl want to feel like they are gods when they solo bosses, dungeons with their superbadass meta builds/classes. so if they get nerfed, they need to adjust, and if its not favoring them, THEY CRY RIVERS.

same applies ofc for pvp. and funnily enough, pvp is atm dominated by certain population, its not anywhere near as huge as pve, so no wonder ppl feel putthurt. i have stated many times that most pvp criers are those who are endgame pvp rapers. not the whiny lil n00bs who cant do shite without procs and aoe skills. zenimax just doesnt understand how their very reactive pvp game could be fixed, definetly not by listening the pro/organized raids since all they want is suit themself, not seek balance. and oh yes! same state applies to pve:rs.

Vyle_Byte · January 2017

Dev wrote: »

Look at the mmos that have done well: WOW, FFXI, FFXIV versus the games that failed or are failing, like eso (sorry but when you go from p2p > b2p > cash scam crates in under 3 years, the label applies)
The ones that are still succeeding as in bringing in and retaining customers, have separated pvp from pve.

And THAT is not anyones fault but ZOS's. Not the pve'er not the pvp'er.

Again this vs. thing is stupid and everyone is aiming all their hostility at the wrong people. In the end, we all love this game, its why we are still here, even after all the stupid *** ZOS has done. Blame all you want, when it comes down to the fact of it, ZOS is responsible.

Decado · January 2017

Hahahaha so your logic is because the nerf failed to do what it was supposed to do it wasn't meant because of PvP?

The reality is most of the bigger nerfs are due to PvP, stamina rejen while blocking was done because all the threads complaining about perma blockers, I don't recall many threads complaining about tanks being able to block, however we still get perma blockers who can tank stupid amounts of people while running around a tree, just because the nerf failed doesn't mean it wasn't made because of PvP

And your insane if you think the proc set nerf was because of PvE! Look back over th forums about the sheer number of people who complained about proc sets and insta kill- one of the biggest offenders was tremorscale and viper, tremorscale isn't even used in PvE and would be utterly useless on a DPS so that's purely PvP, I realise some people use viper in PvE however it's far from the most powerful set up available the only damage proc sets that are powerful in PvE are monster sets and again just because Zos managed to screw up the nerf and make it effect PvE more than PvP doesn't mean it was because of PvE that it was nerfed oh and same with prox det used to be a valuable skill on PvE now utterly worthless, do you think of that was nerfed due to trials groups using it in trash or because of every f*****g Zerg running around syncing it

Also if you havnt completed every piece of PvE content in the game you can't go around commenting on how easy the PvE is, that's just stupid complete it and then come back and say it,

Also look at the percentage of PvE population who have the destroyer title, PvE isn't the issue just because a minority of guilds can walk over all the trials and HMs doesn't mean most can

Now I'm aware there are better ways to do this like battle spirit but they arnt doing that so until
Then people are going to complain when sets/skills than are not overpowered in the part of the game they play become utterly useless because of a completely separate part of the game

Tryxus · January 2017

It's all because dungeon and trial bosses don't whine about how OP something is, nor do they ask for nerfs

EldritchPenguin · January 2017

I think the preconceived notion that nerfs are inherently evil has got to go, because an excess of buffs can ruin a game just as easily as an excess of nerfs can, if not more easily.

People are arguing against nerfs to PvE, saying stuff like, "But bosses have 80 million hitpoints and massive resistance values, and we need all that damage to kill them," but there's a distinct cause-and-effect relationship here: Players have access to massive amounts of damage, so the devs have to buff the health levels of the bosses, as well as their mitigation level as a result of the huge amount of penetration available to players. And if the devs are afraid to nerf players to bring players and enemies back into balance, then they have no choice but to buff enemies even more to compensate for out-of-control player power. We get fewer meaningful mechanics that force players to think their way through various situations, and more enemies that try to "challenge" us only by cheesing us with higher and higher health and resistance values.

A developer that never nerfs anything is at risk of creating a massive arms race between players and enemies, basically creating an environment where the winner is decided based on which can ignore/remove more of the other side's tools and mechanics.

Biro123 · January 2017

Dev wrote: »

These nerfs are because of pvp tears, and just because zos didnt give you what you cried for doesnt make it not your fault.
People should also stop avoiding responsibility when their demographic has caused nothing but inconvenience to everyone else.

Of course its not my fault. As players all we can do is point out the imbalances. Its obviously up to the Devs how they respond to them (if at all).. I'm sorry if all you see is 'inconvenience' from efforts made to balance the game. You're not one of the guys who like to abuse the overperforming stuff are you?

Dev wrote: »

i always love how pvp players will cry for nerfs, then when the game company implements changes on their behalf, the pvp player will try to disavow that it was their fault.

Changes are needed because they are needed - its nothing to do with who spots it.. I work in software development - and in our company people are lauded for pointing out problems with the software, not villified.

Dev wrote: »

Then the pvp player will get on a soapbox and preach how easy everything else is in the game except 'their' chosen content.
How they are the champions for balance, that they should be the stick for which all else is measured... and all the nerfs everyone has to suffer through is just so a pvper can teabag someone...

You'll probably find the teabaggers are the kind of people abusing the imbalances and keeping quiet about it. The vocal ones actually care about the game. And yes - stuff is easier than it should be. It is totally and utterly wrong that me - a non-PVE-er who knows very little about dungeon mechanics can go and solo VET dungeons with my 3-proc PVP gear on. That is a PVE balance issue. Yes it benefits me cos I can easily get the stuff I want for my PVP builds - but I make a noise about it because it is NOT good for the PVE game when a PVE casual with PVP-optimised gear can SOLO group PVE content.

Dev wrote: »

This and most other nerfs in the entire history of this game (as well as other mmorpgs w/ pvp ) has been because of pvp. it is a fact and the only people who think it is anything else also happen to be the same group responsible.

False. Are the pet buffs cos of PVP? Is the buff to destroy ult (with lightning) due to PVP? is taunting on frost staff due to PVP? Curse change? I'm not denying that some changes have come from PVP observations - but DEFINITELY not all and those that have been acted on were often needed in PVE too.

Dev wrote: »

Look at the mmos that have done well: WOW, FFXI, FFXIV versus the games that failed or are failing, like eso (sorry but when you go from p2p > b2p > cash scam crates in under 3 years, the label applies)
The ones that are still succeeding as in bringing in and retaining customers, have separated pvp from pve.

All games have a lifespan. All games fail PVP/PVE only needs separating when PVE has vertical gear progression a-la WOW. ESO doesn't have that - it just has some unbalanced sets - so there is no reason why PVP and PVE cannot be balanced together as long as they don't let too much power-creep in. This is one of the things that attracts PVPers to this game - they can get top gear without having to re-grind the next expansions worth of content geared for the hardcore PVE-ers to stay competitive every few months.. This is a good thing. If you don't like that - then go to WoW, cos this game ain't for you.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · January 2017

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Because Deadra can't make forum posts about imbalance so a loud minority of the PVE only community believes that PVE is almost perfectly balanced.

Danksta wrote: »

Because NPCs don't come to the forums to complain that they got nerfed. If they did they would blame PvE'ers.

For the record @Danksta and I are not the same person.

He or she is really smart though.

leepalmer95 · January 2017

Look at the the pve hero's crying and blaming pvp.

People asked for a range nerf on beam, zos gave it a damage nerf? Why not because of pvp but because they though't 70k crit beams in pve was too strong.

You think pvp'ers wanted minor magicka steal? No this was introduced because of pve because end game raids had perfect sustain by applying elemental drain and could spec into full damage with 600 regen. This was because of pve.

Procs set nerf was mean't to be a nerf to both pve and pvp but the non crit nerf doesn't really do much do pvp but it nerfed noticably in pve Why was that? Because the pvp'er who were complain about stacked proc sets wanted this? No it was because proc sets added a lot of damage and set such as grothdarr and ilambris added a LOT of aoe damage. Check, look at your dps recaps and add your aoe's together and see how much extra aoe your proc set added easily 20%-30%.

Please tell me what change was because of pvp? Radiant? No, Proc sets? Not what pvp'ers wanted.

Honestly why can't people just accept that the power creep was getting too far and content was becoming far to easy and therefore zos brought it back in line. I know most of you 'casual' pve hero's on here liked skipping dungeon mechanics but the truth is the actual hardcore or good pve'ers will just adjust, theorycraft and get right back into into doing everything.

Koensol · January 2017

Fully agreed. I posted about this before. People who are disappointed about their skills getting nerfed often fall into the habbit of playing victim and blaming "the other party" for their situation. It is a sort of self-serving bias. They are just incapable of looking objectively at a situation.

What is also baffling is the amount of folks who cannot comprehend the simple concept of cause and effect. They see one thing (pvp whining), and then another (pve nerf), and they immediately decide the one is the cause of the other, without any argument other than "but it always happens like this". The amount of incoherent bs you read here is beyond ridiculous.

Danksta · January 2017

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Because Deadra can't make forum posts about imbalance so a loud minority of the PVE only community believes that PVE is almost perfectly balanced.

Danksta wrote: »

Because NPCs don't come to the forums to complain that they got nerfed. If they did they would blame PvE'ers.

For the record @Danksta and I are not the same person.

He or she is really smart though.

Haha! I'm just speaking my unbiased opinion.

BuddyAces · January 2017

The changes don't bug me but I don't understand them at all. All these nerfs to pve content have me scratching my head. On my tank I pretty much get insta Qs. Now let's say I sit down and run 6 vet dungeons (this is taking in account that the party actually stays and finishes and doesn't disband). 5 of them are going to be real head scratchers where I'm going to wonder if we'll finish while fighting the first trash pull. They will take forever and I will have to explain each and every fight, which is no problem actually, more than once since some folks don't understand simple strats. This will be after I ask if anyone's never done this fight before. In this party I want to present to you what you will get 5/6 times:

1. The bow user. We all love this guy (same as we love #2). He sits back and spams...snipe? Maybe an acid spray on trash. He MIGHT use endless hail once on one bit of trash between each boss. These are the only 3 skills this guy seems to know.

2. The 2 handed user. This guy is awesome, bless his lil heart. He charges into a mob to uppercut something...then runs back to charge into the mob again...to...wait for it......UPPERCUT again. Now every now and then you get blessed with the presence of a 2H user that just uses uppercut and absolutely nothing else. His Ultimate is probably Soul Strike because, reasons. Some times these guys are using a S/B on the second bar while using pierce armor also (I can't make this *** up). On a are occasion this guy will have a resto staff instead of S/B.

3. The Dragon Knight heavy armored healer, or maybe it's a rogue, or maybe it's a sorc. Please, God, it can't be a templar because that would just make me want to quit the game. I don't even want to check to see what they are, since visually it's hard to tell under the jester costume and all.

On the 6th dungeon, when the stars align and you find a 4 leaf clover, pet a Unicorn, chop off a rabbit's foot, get a horseshoe, and rub a f'ing leprechaun you will get that group that can do a dungeon in 20 minutes. Now ZOS is going to nerf PVE and make things take longer yet to complete????? I feel for you dps who have long Q times and must put up with this crap. My heart goes out to you and I wish yall the best of luck.

Katahdin · January 2017

Man, what did we all do before proc sets?
Was the vet content so hard you couldnt do it without them?

Seriously, people did and completed vet PvE content before proc sets. I just beat vWGT last night on my first attempt ever. One other in my party was on his first time as well. Took us 2 hours to get past the Inhibitor and almost another 2 to murder Molag Kena. Our tank led us through with more patience and understanding than I've ever seen.

Guess what, neither of us had proc sets and I dont think the other party members had them either.

And to the post above, a bow in the right hands can be deadly and very useful in some fights (inhibitor and Kena being 2). I was on my NB with DW and a bow. My snipe hits for 20-30K per shot and the bow ulti does 35K+ damage. DW doesn't do as well on single targets but on mobs nothing beats it. I was hitting 50K DPS at times with several (6-8) targets and sustaining 35K until things started dying. Ive found it difficult to close range all the time in some fights on a NB without dying.

It took patience, cooperation, coordination, listening and paying attention to detail to get it done.

We were exhausted, but elated when we got done but it was a blast and I'll do it again.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · January 2017

Grabmoore wrote: »

kuro-dono wrote: »

pve in eso is already so easy thats unbeliviable. all you need is control your char, use your mega elite e peen honed skills, and you solo everything. pvp actually requires skill. to wreck 50 ppl, you need real skills. to solo keeps, you need good rotation, some luck and good situational awareness. no wonder its... PVE < PVP. AFTERALL, THIS GAME WAS PROMOTED AS AN PVP GAME, NOT PVE.

You are correct that most vet dungeons are very easy. That's obvious.

However you are wrong in all other aspects you wrote. In PvP you dont need skill, you need gear!

This game has been promoted as an elder scrolls (=single player ) game with friends. AvA has been added as a small element. They could remove it and the majority of todays population would still play the game.

As fact I can tell you 12 friends of mine who recently started, they all love the game. Neither of them wants to do PvP at all. On the same side ,they came from overwatch and cs/DotA. So they have the will to compete.

@op: PvP players are the reason for the recent nerfs. Just because the Devs did the worst job on this patch since release - that comes from a "white knight"- that doesn't change the fact that all changes were made to balance PvP.

Be it AoE caps , vamp changes or the proc Set nerf. They just did it entirely wrong -_-

While gear can bring a bad player into being competitive, if you think that there is no skill gap in PVP you're either high or delusional.

Just yesterday about 6 of the most talented blues (XBox NA) decided they didn't want a certain blue to be Emp. Just not having that guild to deal with let EP and AD to storm across the map in less than an hour. They came back afterwards ... the whole war turned.

The top 10% of players (which are not the top 10% of AP farmers) will destroy people by the dozen. 2 days ago I happened to start with the kill 20 enemy players and got it done in under 10 minutes with 1 death without a group. It wasn't because of a proc set. It was because I know what I'm doing.