Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

White wabbit wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

dotme wrote: »

I don't know - Seems like in PVP, someone always wants something nerfed - Usually whatever appears most often in their recap. Eliminate one thing from the recap, and the next-most-often-seen cause will then be the new "OP" thing that needs nerfed. Where does it end?

How about a set that has a 5-piece bonus of a 50% (or x%) chance of reflecting a set proc hit right back at the caster? Seems more interesting than trying to knock down whatever is doing the most damage on any given day.

Viper's Sting is way too strong though and can proc twice in a second. 6-8k damage twice, when only using 1or 2 skills, if you played PvP you'd understand completely, trust me.

There is no double proc bug with Viper. That was only with Selene. Just because you see Viper more than once in your death recap doesn't mean it happened in 1 second - there are no timestamps in the death recap.

Also, those 6-8k hits were only with crits and a 1.0+ crit modifier from pure crit builds. That's going away. Noncrit the max you'll see is around 4-4.5k against fully penetrated light armor.

Had it show up on my death recap from the same player shouldn't proc that quick , basically two free hits

White wabbit wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

dotme wrote: »

I don't know - Seems like in PVP, someone always wants something nerfed - Usually whatever appears most often in their recap. Eliminate one thing from the recap, and the next-most-often-seen cause will then be the new "OP" thing that needs nerfed. Where does it end?

How about a set that has a 5-piece bonus of a 50% (or x%) chance of reflecting a set proc hit right back at the caster? Seems more interesting than trying to knock down whatever is doing the most damage on any given day.

Viper's Sting is way too strong though and can proc twice in a second. 6-8k damage twice, when only using 1or 2 skills, if you played PvP you'd understand completely, trust me.

There is no double proc bug with Viper. That was only with Selene. Just because you see Viper more than once in your death recap doesn't mean it happened in 1 second - there are no timestamps in the death recap.

Also, those 6-8k hits were only with crits and a 1.0+ crit modifier from pure crit builds. That's going away. Noncrit the max you'll see is around 4-4.5k against fully penetrated light armor.

Had it show up on my death recap from the same player shouldn't proc that quick , basically two free hits

The death recap shows the last attacks that contributed to your health bar hitting zero. It's very common to have disconnects in combat for several seconds at a time, that can result in you seeing, for example, Viper's Sting, Ambush, Viper's Sting, Surprise attack in succession in your death recap. Since the death recap doesn't provide timestamps you might think it double proc'd... when they actually had a 4 second delay between those two attacks that each proc'd Viper.

Nobody has posted combat log evidence of Viper double proccing, unlike Selene. There is no evidence to support complaints that it can double proc other than people misunderstanding what they see in the death recap. Yet another in dozens of cases of the death recap creating mass confusion. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/308828/death-recap-needs-an-update#latest

Youre making a lot of assumptions about their experiences that they havent elaborated on.

I'm basing my reply off the half-dozen "double proc" threads that I have read and been involved in. There is plenty of evidence of Selene double proccing, with accurate combat logs. However people keep roping Viper into this anecdotally and somehow can never provide the same type of evidence. This makes one wonder why. Considering Viper is a much more popular set than Selene, with a much higher proc rate, surely there would be a lot more evidence out there to add to the discussion. However, all that's ever posted is a death recap that shows 2 subsequent hits proccing viper, which can easily be explained by a 4 second delay between those attacks connecting (again, because death recap has no timestamps).

TLDR: "In God we trust, all others bring evidence"

Kutsuu wrote: »

Aldenn wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Aldenn wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

It cant crit. So -50 to 70% damage.

I am glad ZoS doesn't listen to anyone here.

It doesn't matter really. Everyone in cyrodil is obviously running more than 2k critical resistance and it's literally pointless removing crits from every kind of proc sets because it's the same thing. The thing is that you can't do 6-7k dmg 100% proc every 4 seconds, you're an easy oneshot for every stamblade and a very very good burst for every tank or off tank pvp build. I tried 2 selene 5 br 5 viper on my stam dk with high crit resistance and so on and i wasn't taking any dmg dealing over 6k viper sting plus selene proc. So in fight you basically do more than 50% of the dmg with viper's sting and proc sets.

An average Nightblade has a built in bonus of 10% to critical strikes (Hemorrhage passive) and least another 10% from elfborn/precise strikes. The base modifier for critical damage is 1.5, so the average NBs critical strike hits for 170% of the base damage.

2500 critical resistance decrease this modifier by ~37.9%, meaning the average NB crits against someone with 2500 crit resist with 132.1% of the attacks base damage.

So a nerf of 30% to viper damage (10% for someone without points in elfborn/precise strikes/nightblade passives) doesnt matter?

Ok, let's say it does (about) 30% less damage. Let's say viper crits in a CP camp hits for 8k. Without crits its dmg will be around 5,6k; 4s cooldown and 100% proc. So now it's balanced?

That's not at all accurate. Noncrits range from 2k to 4.5k, with 4.5k being a target who has zero physical resistance due to penetration. My average noncrit in PVP is 3.5k or so with ~15k physical penetration. On my stamsorc who only has 5k penetration, the average noncrit is below 3k.

8k crits only happen against targets with no crit resistance and a high crit modifier. You're looking at a 1.8-1.9 modifier being effective for it to hit that hard.

I've never seen a non crit viper hitting for 3k, even less. To hit that low you must be in non cp or with very low cps. Probably, even with low physical penetration viper can hit for an average of 4-5k imho. We'll test it but i'm pretty sure viper won't hit for 3k.

Berenhir wrote: »

Aldenn wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

It cant crit. So -50 to 70% damage.

I am glad ZoS doesn't listen to anyone here.

It doesn't matter really. Everyone in cyrodil is obviously running more than 2k critical resistance and it's literally pointless removing crits from every kind of proc sets because it's the same thing. The thing is that you can't do 6-7k dmg 100% proc every 4 seconds, you're an easy oneshot for every stamblade and a very very good burst for every tank or off tank pvp build. I tried 2 selene 5 br 5 viper on my stam dk with high crit resistance and so on and i wasn't taking any dmg dealing over 6k viper sting plus selene proc. So in fight you basically do more than 50% of the dmg with viper's sting and proc sets.

An average Nightblade has a built in bonus of 10% to critical strikes (Hemorrhage passive) and least another 10% from elfborn/precise strikes. The base modifier for critical damage is 1.5, so the average NBs critical strike hits for 170% of the base damage.

2500 critical resistance decrease this modifier by ~37.9%, meaning the average NB crits against someone with 2500 crit resist with 132.1% of the attacks base damage.

So a nerf of 30% to viper damage (10% for someone without points in elfborn/precise strikes/nightblade passives) doesnt matter?

I have to agree this is pretty accurate this helps the general population and players who have high impen and physical resist benefit slightly less but it may be enough to see a lot less viper builds running around.

Aldenn wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

Aldenn wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Aldenn wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

It cant crit. So -50 to 70% damage.

I am glad ZoS doesn't listen to anyone here.

It doesn't matter really. Everyone in cyrodil is obviously running more than 2k critical resistance and it's literally pointless removing crits from every kind of proc sets because it's the same thing. The thing is that you can't do 6-7k dmg 100% proc every 4 seconds, you're an easy oneshot for every stamblade and a very very good burst for every tank or off tank pvp build. I tried 2 selene 5 br 5 viper on my stam dk with high crit resistance and so on and i wasn't taking any dmg dealing over 6k viper sting plus selene proc. So in fight you basically do more than 50% of the dmg with viper's sting and proc sets.

An average Nightblade has a built in bonus of 10% to critical strikes (Hemorrhage passive) and least another 10% from elfborn/precise strikes. The base modifier for critical damage is 1.5, so the average NBs critical strike hits for 170% of the base damage.

2500 critical resistance decrease this modifier by ~37.9%, meaning the average NB crits against someone with 2500 crit resist with 132.1% of the attacks base damage.

So a nerf of 30% to viper damage (10% for someone without points in elfborn/precise strikes/nightblade passives) doesnt matter?

Ok, let's say it does (about) 30% less damage. Let's say viper crits in a CP camp hits for 8k. Without crits its dmg will be around 5,6k; 4s cooldown and 100% proc. So now it's balanced?

That's not at all accurate. Noncrits range from 2k to 4.5k, with 4.5k being a target who has zero physical resistance due to penetration. My average noncrit in PVP is 3.5k or so with ~15k physical penetration. On my stamsorc who only has 5k penetration, the average noncrit is below 3k.

8k crits only happen against targets with no crit resistance and a high crit modifier. You're looking at a 1.8-1.9 modifier being effective for it to hit that hard.

I've never seen a non crit viper hitting for 3k, even less. To hit that low you must be in non cp or with very low cps. Probably, even with low physical penetration viper can hit for an average of 4-5k imho. We'll test it but i'm pretty sure viper won't hit for 3k.

What I'm referencing is 100 points in Mighty. Yeah it's a lot less in no CP. The base damage is ~7800 if I remember right with 25% from mighty, that's reduced by 50% by battle spirit. From there, it is not modified by stam or weapon damage so it's very easy to get an accurate gauge of noncrit damage since crit modifiers don't have to be calculated. You'll see around 4500 damage on someone with 0% physical resistance if you have 100 points in Mighty. That goes down as resistance goes up. Again I'll say - my stamsorc with only 5k penetration (no source of major fracture, and not running spriggan or kra'gh) often sees 2.5-3k noncrit hits on average 18-25k resistance targets.

It's super easy to test.

dotme wrote: »

I don't know - Seems like in PVP, someone always wants something nerfed - Usually whatever appears most often in their recap. Eliminate one thing from the recap, and the next-most-often-seen cause will then be the new "OP" thing that needs nerfed. Where does it end?

So, I got hit by a 6.7k non crit Veliproc today on my magicka DK wearing 5 heavy. I had 3 dudes on me. Do you know for how much dragonblood heals you while you have 1k health left? I'll tell you. Not even 6k. It costs 4k magicka. Every cast and heals you for less if your health goes up. And now that Veliproc was from one guy. I'm not even counting dropped ultimates and other procsets. Since it's Cyrodiil you won't get hit by only one person.

And now you're trying to tell me that procsets are fine? That people overreact? Are you kidding me? It's free damage that costs nothing. That's why people run around with 2 or 3 procsets. That *** is broken and ZOS did nothing to adress the issue. Nothing.

You start with 50% CRIT damage, then things like snightblade and Templar passives shadow stone and elfborn/precise carry it higher. With impen and the cp passives you can negate the beginning 50%, and since no one runs shadow in PvP the only CRIT damage most are taking are from the passives and the cp tree. Of which you really shouldn't be going hard into precise/elfborn anyway.

Long story short. It changes nothing really. You can still get viper tremor to go off and nuke people while also being nice and snug in your heavy black Rose.

Kutsuu wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

You start with 50% CRIT damage, then things like snightblade and Templar passives shadow stone and elfborn/precise carry it higher. With impen and the cp passives you can negate the beginning 50%, and since no one runs shadow in PvP the only CRIT damage most are taking are from the passives and the cp tree. Of which you really shouldn't be going hard into precise/elfborn anyway.

Long story short. It changes nothing really. You can still get viper tremor to go off and nuke people while also being nice and snug in your heavy black Rose.

And let's say they were running 5x Spriggan and 1x Kra'gh 1x kena instead. 6k armor pen (~14% damage increase against armor that isn't over penetrated) 260 more WD, 6% less crit when compared to Viper + tremorscale. That's a lot more damage on every attack, and IMO a pretty fair tradeoff depending on how you want your damage to be delivered. Now I do think that the tremorscale snare is way out of line and needs to be reduced to 50%, and 2 seconds instead of 70% for 8 seconds. The damage just isn't scary.

Yeah about tremor... it doesn't make sense that the cooldown is 4s and it snares for 8s, it's nonsense lol. About viper: 8k tooltip dmg with full gold. With mighty and battle spirit viper is around 5k dmg, yeah it depends on penetration but as long as you use a sharpened weap, you will always hit for around 4k dmg even if he's heavy armor (Everything without considering Major Fracture or Spriggan and so on) and you're not considering physical penetration on CPs so, the dmg less or more is still high, it needs a nerf definetely imho.

fixing its double proc like selenes would be a big step in the right direction, but making it a chance to proc instead of every 4 seconds is worse, thatd be adding more rng to pvp and thats not what we need at all cause right now the damage is predictable, making it a dot would be great except if got that nerf itd be useless if affected by battle spirit, id actually be happier if it was a dot that lasted for 4 seconds and could be reapplied every 4 seconds if it wasnt affect by battle spirit