End game, progressive PvE Content (Letter to ZOS)

Sergiowws · January 2017

Hey @Belazarus I'm glad you create this topic, really!
I'm new to ESO but one of my concerns before buying the game was this PvE end game... Because I'm also a PvE guy who just loves to explore, do quests, get new better gear... And the more I read about ESO the more I was getting frustated due to the fact the isn't muuch to do when you get to this point.
I think that it's one of tbe things that kept playing Tibia (yea, it's true lol) for a so long time. There's always something new for you to do, there aren't levels restrictions, with every nee update there are newer and harder quests, new/stronger items... Things that motivate you to keep playing the game.
Finally, I agree with every single word you stated in your topic and I really hope ZOS do something with the game in this regard.

jwboudreau1b16_ESO · January 2017

alexkdd99 wrote: »

It seems that they have just made most of the items to easy to obtain. Really the only items that require much effort to obtain are certain vma weapons. And those usually aren't too much trouble if we are not taking traits into considerations.

But it seems zos wants things to be easy to obtain. I think a grind is good for any mmo. Just look at how much easier everything in the game is to obtain from what they use to be, with exception of trait specific vma weapons.

Want a certain monster mask? Well they are 100% drop rate. Want shoulders? Gold keys can be obtained from normal pledges and they are 100% chance to get from chest. This game has become a hand out game where everything is pretty much given out freely. Want gold jewelry? Just go to the golden vendor.

The problem is everything is way to easy to get. There is no progression left. Don't say pvp as that is also a joke. If people still cared about playing the game in pvp then maybe that would be different. But that is not the case, everyone just wants to farm ap. What do people want to farm ap for? Who knows as everything obtained from ap is also easy to get.

Don't get me wrong when they make the changes to increase drop rates I to get excited. But I realize that once I have all the items then I lose interest in playing the game.

TLDR I need that carrot to chase.

lol easy to get...

Sure, it's easy to get these pieces, but a mind-numbing grind to get pieces with the right trait. When there was only a "chance" of getting a random mask or shoulder, it was ridiculous. I completed tons of Vet dungeons and I only got a couple pieces, each with terrible traits.

Belazarus · January 2017

Sergiowws wrote: »

Hey @Belazarus I'm glad you create this topic, really!
I'm new to ESO but one of my concerns before buying the game was this PvE end game... Because I'm also a PvE guy who just loves to explore, do quests, get new better gear... And the more I read about ESO the more I was getting frustated due to the fact the isn't muuch to do when you get to this point.
I think that it's one of tbe things that kept playing Tibia (yea, it's true lol) for a so long time. There's always something new for you to do, there aren't levels restrictions, with every nee update there are newer and harder quests, new/stronger items... Things that motivate you to keep playing the game.
Finally, I agree with every single word you stated in your topic and I really hope ZOS do something with the game in this regard.

You're welcome Sergio

I'm hoping too!

pema · January 2017

Lots of responses, glad to.read some oppinions.
For me it's the same, only my guildies bring me in game. The events help a bit I should say, but they are also very easy. I disagree that pvp is endgame, the lag is terrible and there is no option in playstyle.

Since one tamriel came my fear of only focussing on new plauers became true: endgame was forgotten or is no interest. Why? The normal content is to easy due to cp, and being able.to play dungons with your eyes closed cause you can dream the mechanics.
After orcinium.we got little.content, to little.

Whats my wishlist:
Normal and vet dungeons should have 2 stories.
Trails/dungeons scalable. Not scaling us up, but making it hader then normal and easier thenn vet. That step is to big, and its hard to train up to the material this.way.
Bigger trails, i heard peeps speak about 24 man trails. That sounds like something that could be fun.
Grouping tool for trails. So pugging becomes easier
Doing content should be challenging, even a zone quest ot a daylie.

It's a huge game, but we need stuff to do.

S1ipperyJim · January 2017

You've been playing since Beta (as have I) and have all the best in slot gear and have done all the major achievements. So you want the game changed so you have more stuff to do. That is a problem faced by a very very small percentage of the current player base (tons of new players, many of whom don't know the forum exists or come on here to give their point of view), who already are overwhelmed by the amount of things to do in the game.

ZOS should exercise extreme caution in considering requests to make changes to the game that are requested by such a miniscule section of the player base.

It's worth mentioning as others have pointed out that PVP is the end game for most people at your stage of the journey. Further, most of the changes you request have already been implemented or are redundant. Perhaps create some new characters, PVP or take a break until PTS or Feb update. Most MMO players at the very end game take breaks between content releases if they get bored.

Belazarus · January 2017

Interesting thoughts @reapthetempestrwb17_ESO

You seem to be implying that I'm suggesting changing any of the existing content, which players are able to enjoy as they level through the game - but I am not. I believe that it's not unreasonable to expect a game to have content for new players, as well as having progressive content for players at end game (of which, there are many).

So in short, no, I'm not suggesting changing ANY of the current content that exists for lower level or newer players - keep it all - it's fantastic and indeed should remain

My post is suggesting the addition of content & reward systems for those (many) who have reached end game.

Not sure why there can't be something for everyone, there are already many games who do offer this quite successfully.

Sinthrax · January 2017

This game has LOTs of content for the initial release. It had me VERY hopeful for the game. However, now they consider DBH and TG as content. I guess it fits the definition but....for an MMO it is laughable.

Face the truth...content is non existent in this game after you beat the day 1 release content. Everything else has been a 1% effort on Zeni to make it seem as if they care.

Sinthrax · January 2017

jwboudreau1b16_ESO wrote: »

Great thread!

I still have so much more to do before I will ever be bored with ESO, but just as a reminder, we're getting housing in a monthish and we should get the yearly Road Ahead soon, detailing the plans for the year.

As for endgame content, I would love to see some just for fun activities. In Final Fantasy XIV, there's gambling games and the amazing Triple Triad. It would be nice if there were social events and games to engage with. It's things like this that make a tired world seem alive.

A great idea from the creators of Neverwinter is a quest creation system. You, the player, can either pick up a quest or create quests for others to do. It can be fun, interesting, and inspire the developers when considering future story content. There doesn't necessarily need to be rewards (above and beyond experience), but these kinds of community creations will keep many players playing the game more consistently and possibly shape the future of the game, as eluded to earlier.

They can add all of the rewards and grinds they can, but there will always be a point where you are lost with nothing to do. I would like to see some mechanics to make the world and community feel more alive.

I will enjoy the housing but to me it is a side game. It is something to do to break the grind some. It is not content that will keep many entertained past a week at the most. Now, I know some will enjoy it more but most could care less. I would even bet some dont consider housing as content at all.

My opionion. They arent doing enough for people that have been playing the game since the beginning. We are out of stuff to do and housing isn't going to help. Most will move on from it in a week and it will be quick stop to hang a trophy and back to...doing nothing at this rate.

Belazarus · January 2017

@Sinthrax
Couldn't agree with you more - you totally get my concern

Ishammael · January 2017

Here's the fundamental paradox of all video games, especially MMOs. If you design them solely for PvE content players will eventually complete it. "Theme park" games always peter out. The yearly churn of Call of Duty titles or other MMO models are clear indications of this.

Games which hold the most player attention are those where the content or dynamics are driven by the players themselves. This could be in the form of competition (e.g. League of Legends) or "sandbox" elements (e.g. Minecraft). Cyrodiil should have been this feature for ESO. Except that the developers made a choice to abandon Cyrodiil in favor of quarterly "content" dribbles.

Consider ESO in the following manner: no significant addition has been made to the Alliance War map in nearly 3 years. Yet players are still fighting on a daily basis. The only thing that changes in Cyrodiil is skill and item balance. The next patch has promise ZERO new content for PvP except a balance update -- and players are excited for it.

On the other hand, ESO has received numerous zone additions, dungeons, and quests... which are complete-able within hours of release. No matter how to plead or what is added to ESO, there will never be enough PvE content for you. It is simply impossible for a development team to create content as fast as players consume it.

tinythinker · January 2017

Ishammael wrote: »

Here's the fundamental paradox of all video games, especially MMOs. If you design them solely for PvE content players will eventually complete it. "Theme park" games always peter out. The yearly churn of Call of Duty titles or other MMO models are clear indications of this.

Games which hold the most player attention are those where the content or dynamics are driven by the players themselves. This could be in the form of competition (e.g. League of Legends) or "sandbox" elements (e.g. Minecraft). Cyrodiil should have been this feature for ESO. Except that the developers made a choice to abandon Cyrodiil in favor of quarterly "content" dribbles.

That's why I suggest directly competitive PvE endgame content.

Wifeaggro13 · January 2017

Ishammael wrote: »

Here's the fundamental paradox of all video games, especially MMOs. If you design them solely for PvE content players will eventually complete it. "Theme park" games always peter out. The yearly churn of Call of Duty titles or other MMO models are clear indications of this.

Games which hold the most player attention are those where the content or dynamics are driven by the players themselves. This could be in the form of competition (e.g. League of Legends) or "sandbox" elements (e.g. Minecraft). Cyrodiil should have been this feature for ESO. Except that the developers made a choice to abandon Cyrodiil in favor of quarterly "content" dribbles.

Consider ESO in the following manner: no significant addition has been made to the Alliance War map in nearly 3 years. Yet players are still fighting on a daily basis. The only thing that changes in Cyrodiil is skill and item balance. The next patch has promise ZERO new content for PvP except a balance update -- and players are excited for it.

On the other hand, ESO has received numerous zone additions, dungeons, and quests... which are complete-able within hours of release. No matter how to plead or what is added to ESO, there will never be enough PvE content for you. It is simply impossible for a development team to create content as fast as players consume it.

Well this is not entirely true. its how much effort you put into the content. Arguably Eq2 when they released a Expac it had several layers to it. AA layer, 6 Dungeons tiering with a reasonable RNG loot table of legendary items that tiered up with diffculty, raids usally about 3 per expansion tiering as well. a large quest per class that would unlock an item that gained power through questing through dungeons and raiding, lots of faction questing , guild writs , new crafting tiers , new collections,level increase with new class abilities.,new starting zone and sometimes a new race. tons of solo questing. seriously if you were a casual player you would not be done with the content by the time the next expac released. if you were a hard core you had the raids on farm in about 5 months. most of the time they would release a small DLC in the middle for about 9.99 that was roughly the size of a ZOS DLC .These expansions cost alot though but they were almost a new game with all the features. amny other MMO's were able to Provide large scale content in those post launch time frames as well

Tradtionally sand box MMO's do not do as well, the only one that has really broken and held its core is Eve online. all the new ones bleed players right after launch. comparing games that are in the E sport category that are not persistent like LOL is just simply not fair and you can earn just about everything in LOL by actually playing the game purchasing things is for the instant gratification crowd.

As for PVP look the situation is this your getting shafted just like the tradtionally MMO pve crowd they are not getting anything signifcant , Orsinium was a solo player gmae even its new intance was geared for the solo player DB TG jesus those were supposed to be base game guilds that they canned and sold after to maximize profit. We got 2 trials and few dungeons in 3 years yes . TG, DB Orsinium was content for the single player casual/ churn player base that does not sub.

Zos can make content for both the true PVE crowd and the PVP crowd but it requires them investing money back into the game and i they are not willing to do that on a large scale. they are producing easy bake candy land content for the churn and barbiie doll player base.Its cheap and easy to make and creates great short term profit but does not equate longevity for a MMO.

Ishammael · January 2017

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Well this is not entirely true. its how much effort you put into the content. Arguably Eq2 when they released a Expac it had several layers to it. AA layer, 6 Dungeons tiering with a reasonable RNG loot table of legendary items that tiered up with diffculty, raids usally about 3 per expansion tiering as well. a large quest per class that would unlock an item that gained power through questing through dungeons and raiding, lots of faction questing , guild writs , new crafting tiers , new collections,level increase with new class abilities.,new starting zone and sometimes a new race. tons of solo questing. seriously if you were a casual player you would not be done with the content by the time the next expac released. if you were a hard core you had the raids on farm in about 5 months. most of the time they would release a small DLC in the middle for about 9.99 that was roughly the size of a ZOS DLC .These expansions cost alot though but they were almost a new game with all the features. amny other MMO's were able to Provide large scale content in those post launch time frames as well

The Skinner Box doesn't count.

Wifeaggro13 · January 2017

Ishammael wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Well this is not entirely true. its how much effort you put into the content. Arguably Eq2 when they released a Expac it had several layers to it. AA layer, 6 Dungeons tiering with a reasonable RNG loot table of legendary items that tiered up with diffculty, raids usally about 3 per expansion tiering as well. a large quest per class that would unlock an item that gained power through questing through dungeons and raiding, lots of faction questing , guild writs , new crafting tiers , new collections,level increase with new class abilities.,new starting zone and sometimes a new race. tons of solo questing. seriously if you were a casual player you would not be done with the content by the time the next expac released. if you were a hard core you had the raids on farm in about 5 months. most of the time they would release a small DLC in the middle for about 9.99 that was roughly the size of a ZOS DLC .These expansions cost alot though but they were almost a new game with all the features. amny other MMO's were able to Provide large scale content in those post launch time frames as well

The Skinner Box doesn't count.

what is the skinner box?

AuldWolf · January 2017

A whole load of sycophantic smarm before getting to the point is never a good sign. It's patronising at best, and it has the implied expectation that everyone you're talking to is going to be an idiot. That they're all going to bleat in your favour just because you were willing to shame yourself to appeal to their narcissism. I really hope people aren't that shallow. That's really Manipulation 101 right there.

And really? These are all bad ideas. ESO is riddled with incredibly toxic, competitive people already after the changes they've already made. We need to make the game more casual, not less. They really need to encourage people to make alts, roleplay, and do more casual things. The more they appeal to hyper-competitive grinders or PvP players, the worse things are going to get. ESO could stand to be more casual, not less. These things just aren't good ideas, and they aren't suited to ESO. They'd be suited to a game like Wildstar, of course, but that's a game that was dead on arrival as I keep pointing out.

These things would be more likely to drive the stake further into ZOS's chest than actually help this game become more healthy. They need content, sure, but not the kind you're suggesting. The kind of content they add would need to be more in line with Orsinium to give people choices with alts. Vvardenfel sounds like a great direction for that, honestly. I support them in that even if I have so many misgivings with what I've heard of the upcoming 'balance' patch.

This isn't a grindmeister's game. This isn't that sort of game. If it were, it'd be dead. Like Warhammer Online, like Wildstar, like Champions Online, et cetera. Those were games that were born grindy or made more grindy with patches. And no one wanted that. That doesn't sell. That just doesn't sell. This point needs to be made. While you may have a guild (which I imagine is much more tiny than you make it out to be) that wants this sort of thing, there are thousands of players who don't.

The largest influx of players happened with One Tamriel, because "Oh my god, an MMO where I can go anywhere I want without having to grind my life away to get there. That's amazing, sign me up!" rather than anything else.

So this is just another bad idea thread. One of many. Just with much more smarm than most.

I detest smarm.

Wifeaggro13 · January 2017

AuldWolf wrote: »

A whole load of sycophantic smarm before getting to the point is never a good sign. It's patronising at best, and it has the implied expectation that everyone you're talking to is going to be an idiot. That they're all going to bleat in your favour just because you were willing to shame yourself to appeal to their narcissism. I really hope people aren't that shallow. That's really Manipulation 101 right there.

And really? These are all bad ideas. ESO is riddled with incredibly toxic, competitive people already after the changes they've already made. We need to make the game more casual, not less. They really need to encourage people to make alts, roleplay, and do more casual things. The more they appeal to hyper-competitive grinders or PvP players, the worse things are going to get. ESO could stand to be more casual, not less. These things just aren't good ideas, and they aren't suited to ESO. They'd be suited to a game like Wildstar, of course, but that's a game that was dead on arrival as I keep pointing out.

These things would be more likely to drive the stake further into ZOS's chest than actually help this game become more healthy. They need content, sure, but not the kind you're suggesting. The kind of content they add would need to be more in line with Orsinium to give people choices with alts. Vvardenfel sounds like a great direction for that, honestly. I support them in that even if I have so many misgivings with what I've heard of the upcoming 'balance' patch.

This isn't a grindmeister's game. This isn't that sort of game. If it were, it'd be dead. Like Warhammer Online, like Wildstar, like Champions Online, et cetera. Those were games that were born grindy or made more grindy with patches. And no one wanted that. That doesn't sell. That just doesn't sell. This point needs to be made. While you may have a guild (which I imagine is much more tiny than you make it out to be) that wants this sort of thing, there are thousands of players who don't.

The largest influx of players happened with One Tamriel, because "Oh my god, an MMO where I can go anywhere I want without having to grind my life away to get there. That's amazing, sign me up!" rather than anything else.

So this is just another bad idea thread. One of many. Just with much more smarm than most.

I detest smarm.

Umm they came for the repurposed dungeons returning players looking for something to do. pot calling the kettle black though . you need not worry ESO is clearly catering to your playstyle so you need not worry. not one wants it to be grindy we just want real content, pregression and less artificial game extensions like they have been pulling with the VR and now CP system. no one wants to limit your casual experience they just want more end game to. the OP had a well thought out and concise post your just being an inflamatory troll because you don't like his game style. there is plenty of casual content in the game whats wrong with more end game? are you out of casual things to do?

dday3six · January 2017

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Well this is not entirely true. its how much effort you put into the content. Arguably Eq2 when they released a Expac it had several layers to it. AA layer, 6 Dungeons tiering with a reasonable RNG loot table of legendary items that tiered up with diffculty, raids usally about 3 per expansion tiering as well. a large quest per class that would unlock an item that gained power through questing through dungeons and raiding, lots of faction questing , guild writs , new crafting tiers , new collections,level increase with new class abilities.,new starting zone and sometimes a new race. tons of solo questing. seriously if you were a casual player you would not be done with the content by the time the next expac released. if you were a hard core you had the raids on farm in about 5 months. most of the time they would release a small DLC in the middle for about 9.99 that was roughly the size of a ZOS DLC .These expansions cost alot though but they were almost a new game with all the features. amny other MMO's were able to Provide large scale content in those post launch time frames as well

The Skinner Box doesn't count.

what is the skinner box?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber

Basically Crown Crates are a skinner box model.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · January 2017

AuldWolf wrote: »

A whole load of sycophantic smarm before getting to the point is never a good sign. It's patronising at best, and it has the implied expectation that everyone you're talking to is going to be an idiot. That they're all going to bleat in your favour just because you were willing to shame yourself to appeal to their narcissism. I really hope people aren't that shallow. That's really Manipulation 101 right there.

And really? These are all bad ideas. ESO is riddled with incredibly toxic, competitive people already after the changes they've already made. We need to make the game more casual, not less. They really need to encourage people to make alts, roleplay, and do more casual things. The more they appeal to hyper-competitive grinders or PvP players, the worse things are going to get. ESO could stand to be more casual, not less. These things just aren't good ideas, and they aren't suited to ESO. They'd be suited to a game like Wildstar, of course, but that's a game that was dead on arrival as I keep pointing out.

These things would be more likely to drive the stake further into ZOS's chest than actually help this game become more healthy. They need content, sure, but not the kind you're suggesting. The kind of content they add would need to be more in line with Orsinium to give people choices with alts. Vvardenfel sounds like a great direction for that, honestly. I support them in that even if I have so many misgivings with what I've heard of the upcoming 'balance' patch.

This isn't a grindmeister's game. This isn't that sort of game. If it were, it'd be dead. Like Warhammer Online, like Wildstar, like Champions Online, et cetera. Those were games that were born grindy or made more grindy with patches. And no one wanted that. That doesn't sell. That just doesn't sell. This point needs to be made. While you may have a guild (which I imagine is much more tiny than you make it out to be) that wants this sort of thing, there are thousands of players who don't.

The largest influx of players happened with One Tamriel, because "Oh my god, an MMO where I can go anywhere I want without having to grind my life away to get there. That's amazing, sign me up!" rather than anything else.

So this is just another bad idea thread. One of many. Just with much more smarm than most.

I detest smarm.

I detest ****s. You are one.

thomas1970b16_ESO · January 2017

The raiding community is a very small part of ESO players. They are skilled, play a lot and very vocal and active on the forums though.

Here is my take:

I like the fact that endgame does not only have to be about raiding.

I like the fact that you can play solo if you want and still have access to the best equipment.

I like the fact that crafting is still a viable gearing option (granted it could use a lsight buff and jewelcrafting).

I want more lore and story mostly.

azoriangaming · January 2017

i'll be honest with you I felt the exact same as you are currently, I took a small break away from the game and tried new mmos but I came to the conclusion that eso is the best mmo out at this current point in time, the social aspect also dragged me back here as well as i've known people here since beta who still play the game on and off these are people i've connected with for years and i think you've got the same mind set as me.

I totally agree with your assessment of the game and would love to see your ideas implemented into the game.

Also on a side note that may help you is that i got myself a second account and didn't tell anyone the account name and when I feel like you do where i'm just logging on and standing around towns doing nothing or i just want to get away for a little while i'll log on to that account and it helps a lot for me.

hope this helps and I hope you stick with eso.

Tyrion87 · January 2017

Hello Bel, my dear Alith fellow

Many good points in this thread so far and I agree with you totally that end game players need some love. A lot of love. But I am afraid that some of these ideas could make the game even more "elitist". Especially an idea of introducing superior gears that can be bought with currency/tokens obtained via doing trials, dungeons and other end game content.

For me the biggest problem in ESO is elitism. We have reached the point where only certain sets matter, where you are allowed to join vet raids only if you have certain set equipped appropriate for your role, e.g. spell power cure for healers, ebon for tanks, and only a few sets for DDs that enable them to reach the highest possible dps just to prove it via FTC to join the raids. An introduction of new superior gear sets could cause, in a long run, that guilds would require people having these sets to join the raids. I am a fan of the total opposite, i.e. of making the sets more "equal" just to provide more variety to the game. Nowdays we can observe that most people equip the same gear, use the same skills or otherwise follow that so-called "meta". I hate this because it makes the game boring, less diverse.

Moreover, the game is already too easy (apart from vet trials) and any introduction of new more powerful gear sets is not a good idea. Such sets could also make the remaining hard content easier which could be catastrophic. They could also make crafting useless while now some sets are still worth crafting and using. We obviously need more sets but they should be on pair with the existing ones (maybe with the ones that are considered superior at the moment like Inf. Aether or VO) and they could provide some other useful and unique fifth bonuses. But they should be an alternative, not a must-have for every end game player and a requirement to be allowed to join vet trials just to run them more smoothly and faster. There is of course a place for new more powerful sets but provided that new harder content is introduced. To be honest what would be the point in collecting new superior gear if existing content is so easy that it can be done with the current gear?

But

I really like an idea of PvE currencies/tokens. But I think that such currencies could be used to buy exclusive goodies like mounts, costumes, skins etc. I think it would be really successful since many people love spending thousands of crowns on cosmetics in the crown store.

I also really like an idea of increasing the guilds' reputation cap. But we need some more incentives to level it up. The suggestion of gear as a reward is cool but once again it can't be significantly superior to the existing BiS sets, but instead they should be an interesting alternative. Magicka based ones could be obtained via mages guild, stamina ones via fighters guild, etc.

Your suggestions though constitute only incentives to play an existing content. But what this game really needs is a new content like new trials, dungeons, quests. Right now we have 20 dungeons (some of them in their variant II) but only 4 trials. We need more of them (trials I mean). Much more. Also, as @pema mentioned, I think that a new 24-man trial would be amazing but it could be really demanding for our hardwares (fps issues) since many people already experience huge fps drops in 12-man trials... But well, it could be a thing!

Other than that...

More interesting and unique achievements with interesting rewards after their completion are another option.

We have so many beautiful zones in the game but no incentives to visit them anymore. The dailies currently sending us to such places are good but not the rewards upon their completion. So... better rewards and some zone-specific dailies!

Overland world is just ridiculously easy for those who have their CP maxed. I think CPs should be disabled in the overland. World bosses and dolmens meant to be group content but even after One Tamriel they all can be done solo...

Harder and more challenging dungeons (like the SotH ones on vet) filled with new interesting mechanics.

A middle tier (in terms of difficulty) trials since the difference between normal and vet is too big at the moment.

It's high time to break vMA weapons supremacy. They have been BiS for over a year now. More weapons with unique and powerful enchantments (1pc set bonus) obtainable in PvE group content are needed.

A new class, combat skill lines, new morphs of existing skills - but since we are about to have a balance patch, I think we can't count on this in nearly future.

But to be honest... if we play the same game for such a long time it is obvious that at some point we will achieve/get everything that is to achieve/get. Then we can only wait for new content to play. During the past year we got updates that we can consider as "essential" and an obvious choice for the devs to implement into the game as its first DLCs. Thieves guild and Dark brotherhood are inseparable element of each TES game thats why they had to be introduced as one of the first. We also had One Tamriel which "fixed"/"adapt" the game to the current reality/needs. They all just had to happen. Now we have housing - something that many players have asked for from the very beginning. But after that we have a huge spectrum of possibilities to expand end game content so I really hope that the best is still ahead of us

Wifeaggro13 · January 2017

azoriangaming wrote: »

i'll be honest with you I felt the exact same as you are currently, I took a small break away from the game and tried new mmos but I came to the conclusion that eso is the best mmo out at this current point in time, the social aspect also dragged me back here as well as i've known people here since beta who still play the game on and off these are people i've connected with for years and i think you've got the same mind set as me.

I totally agree with your assessment of the game and would love to see your ideas implemented into the game.

Also on a side note that may help you is that i got myself a second account and didn't tell anyone the account name and when I feel like you do where i'm just logging on and standing around towns doing nothing or i just want to get away for a little while i'll log on to that account and it helps a lot for me.

hope this helps and I hope you stick with eso.

I think what most of the launch people's problem with Eso is its lack of direction and horse switching. It swings on a development pendulum.

Out of my guild of 40 plus people that have been gaming together since EQ1 we have traversed many mmos together. And we as a community play other games together as well. I am the only one that continued to give Eso a chance after the mass exodus after the 6 month post launch.

The lack of addressing the armor imbalance that created of total dress and stick meta,the back peddle on getting the guilds in , the total failure of the VR removal , and the complete abandonment of end game development at the time really crushed a lot of people's faith in Zos. All 5 of my launch guilds left. Then my next 5 all left, and at 1 tamriel again another bleed.

I understand that many players are happy with the current online Rpg design they have chosen . They are churn base and crown store cosmetic. The game will continue on a this never ending merry go round of new community. I am envious you have a guild of people who play regularly and do group activities. I've not found that here its a constant player base of people hitting the wall of the back end of the game and getting bored and leaving.

Truthfully I would be fine with just playing this as an online Rpg but even the solo content is played out . Seriously you can casually play this game and do all the quests savor every moment do all the dungeons and dolmens, play all 3 solo play dlc's and be done with this game in 5 to 8 months. It gets boring .the dailies are meh, the reward system is horrid and rolling another class just ends in another Dps build.

I've not found a community that enjoys this longterm. And truthfully I don't see as many people doing the content that there was pre tamriel one. In the front end people flocked back for the repurposed dungeons and the new improved questing system. And left again due to the extra chromosome you needed to have to enjoy the extra hit points and resistances with no mechanics the dungeons had. It was mind-numbing and boring. No roles bring 4 dps and stack and burn. It actually made the game worse in the group content.

For me Eso is lacking because I don't enjoy soloing. I've seen many casuals scream about they don't want an end game grind but what you have is just as grind only you can do it all by yourself. There is no dynamic content , no random quest genrator, it's just dailies reroll and do all the story again . You can craft most of the best stuff in game, all the sets are easily obtained in dungeons. Sure newer cp people have a hard time due to the horribly implementation of the CP power creep. But it's hardly un accessible. You can do normal trials over and over and get the same gear just about that drops from vr trials.

I don't know why the churn community is so adamant they add nothing for the player base that that likes traditional MMO progression. It's not a 1% community it's a large portion of MMO players . They just don't play ESO anymore because it was so damn slow to add content. You can make content for both communities, other Mmos have and still are doing it. And they still are sub based. This buisness plan is milk the player base and shut the lights off once it dries up.

azoriangaming · January 2017

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

azoriangaming wrote: »

i'll be honest with you I felt the exact same as you are currently, I took a small break away from the game and tried new mmos but I came to the conclusion that eso is the best mmo out at this current point in time, the social aspect also dragged me back here as well as i've known people here since beta who still play the game on and off these are people i've connected with for years and i think you've got the same mind set as me.

I totally agree with your assessment of the game and would love to see your ideas implemented into the game.

Also on a side note that may help you is that i got myself a second account and didn't tell anyone the account name and when I feel like you do where i'm just logging on and standing around towns doing nothing or i just want to get away for a little while i'll log on to that account and it helps a lot for me.

hope this helps and I hope you stick with eso.

I think what most of the launch people's problem with Eso is its lack of direction and horse switching. It swings on a development pendulum.

Out of my guild of 40 plus people that have been gaming together since EQ1 we have traversed many mmos together. And we as a community play other games together as well. I am the only one that continued to give Eso a chance after the mass exodus after the 6 month post launch.

The lack of addressing the armor imbalance that created of total dress and stick meta,the back peddle on getting the guilds in , the total failure of the VR removal , and the complete abandonment of end game development at the time really crushed a lot of people's faith in Zos. All 5 of my launch guilds left. Then my next 5 all left, and at 1 tamriel again another bleed.

I understand that many players are happy with the current online Rpg design they have chosen . They are churn base and crown store cosmetic. The game will continue on a this never ending merry go round of new community. I am envious you have a guild of people who play regularly and do group activities. I've not found that here its a constant player base of people hitting the wall of the back end of the game and getting bored and leaving.

Truthfully I would be fine with just playing this as an online Rpg but even the solo content is played out . Seriously you can casually play this game and do all the quests savor every moment do all the dungeons and dolmens, play all 3 solo play dlc's and be done with this game in 5 to 8 months. It gets boring .the dailies are meh, the reward system is horrid and rolling another class just ends in another Dps build.

I've not found a community that enjoys this longterm. And truthfully I don't see as many people doing the content that there was pre tamriel one. In the front end people flocked back for the repurposed dungeons and the new improved questing system. And left again due to the extra chromosome you needed to have to enjoy the extra hit points and resistances with no mechanics the dungeons had. It was mind-numbing and boring. No roles bring 4 dps and stack and burn. It actually made the game worse in the group content.

For me Eso is lacking because I don't enjoy soloing. I've seen many casuals scream about they don't want an end game grind but what you have is just as grind only you can do it all by yourself. There is no dynamic content , no random quest genrator, it's just dailies reroll and do all the story again . You can craft most of the best stuff in game, all the sets are easily obtained in dungeons. Sure newer cp people have a hard time due to the horribly implementation of the CP power creep. But it's hardly un accessible. You can do normal trials over and over and get the same gear just about that drops from vr trials.

I don't know why the churn community is so adamant they add nothing for the player base that that likes traditional MMO progression. It's not a 1% community it's a large portion of MMO players . They just don't play ESO anymore because it was so damn slow to add content. You can make content for both communities, other Mmos have and still are doing it. And they still are sub based. This buisness plan is milk the player base and shut the lights off once it dries up.

yeah i totally agree, for me though mmo's are like 80% social and 20% content especially now I don't play competitively and I just play mmo's for fun/social but this maybe because i can't actually bring myself to play the content any more, most of my time is literally sat in craglorn chatting to guldies or logging into my other account and doing group finder content for the challenge.

Conclusion is that i think imho that this has turned into a casual gamers mmo with each dlc release compared to the old traditional mmo where you could play 24 hours a day and not get bored.

Balamoor · January 2017

Belazarus wrote: »

Thanks guys - some really valuable contributions here!

Hey Bel! Big fan or your podcast.

I agree with a lot of what your'e saying, I honestly think that the mindset in most MMo's is Raid centric or PVE centric, and that just to me doesn't fit what Elder scrolls is and while I agree the devs should look at the elder game a lot of great points have been brought up on this thread aside from taking a break, I just don't think you should have to do that if you're in a game you love.

I am trying different class combos crafting and getting ready for housing, I am also bringing more people into the game and helping them out, I think community building is fun and it balances out a lot of the negativity you see especially on the forums.

I'm not a fan at all of data mining but the cats out of the bag that we have a lot to look forward to, I think this game is going places and is going to be around a long time, guilds like yours is a big part of what makes this community great.

Hope this helps and Take care.

Asardes · January 2017

Wow, I couldn't agree more to the OP. So much tribulation and work for nothing, really. Running the same content over and over again certainly has fast diminishing rewards in this game. I have amassed hundreds of pieces of gear I will probably never use, I have more than 10M gold with nothing to spend on, I have loads of gold materials, I have more veteran characters with gold gear and fully trained skills, but in the end satisfaction is very low. I'm experiencing severe burnout. My play quality has degraded a lot - I can't concentrate because I'm tired and bored to death. I have recently quit running difficult content because the stress and effort was simply too much for the end rewards. Following a bad run of a veteran trial I have quit my guild, because I felt I have been disappointing the others, and myself. I want to have something to return to.

glavius · January 2017

What you want is an infinite grind for crazy powerful gear.
ESO is already dangerously close to that with master/maelstrom/trial gear already being very hard to get in the right traits (depending on your luck)
I'm sure a new trial class type of gear with double stats of other gear, and 1/1000 drop rate with random trait would make you happily grind forever.

But for the rest of us, no thanks.

Because adding this gear would force everyone to grind it, or quit. (or be a casual that can never compete in anything but fishing or flower picking)

Ishammael · January 2017

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Well this is not entirely true. its how much effort you put into the content. Arguably Eq2 when they released a Expac it had several layers to it. AA layer, 6 Dungeons tiering with a reasonable RNG loot table of legendary items that tiered up with diffculty, raids usally about 3 per expansion tiering as well. a large quest per class that would unlock an item that gained power through questing through dungeons and raiding, lots of faction questing , guild writs , new crafting tiers , new collections,level increase with new class abilities.,new starting zone and sometimes a new race. tons of solo questing. seriously if you were a casual player you would not be done with the content by the time the next expac released. if you were a hard core you had the raids on farm in about 5 months. most of the time they would release a small DLC in the middle for about 9.99 that was roughly the size of a ZOS DLC .These expansions cost alot though but they were almost a new game with all the features. amny other MMO's were able to Provide large scale content in those post launch time frames as well

The Skinner Box doesn't count.

what is the skinner box?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber

The basic premise is the following: if you apply positive reward in a RNG manner a mouse will be conditioned to press a button into eternity. This behavior psychology absolutely, 100% applies to humans. Good examples are gambling... but video games apply this by inserting RNG into loot tables. That way, you'll press the button over and over and over and over. The worst part of the whole thing is that when you finally get the "item" you wanted, you feel worse than in pursuit. So you'll go chase the next one.

Wifeaggro13 · January 2017

Balamoor wrote: »

Belazarus wrote: »

Thanks guys - some really valuable contributions here!

Hey Bel! Big fan or your podcast.

I agree with a lot of what your'e saying, I honestly think that the mindset in most MMo's is Raid centric or PVE centric, and that just to me doesn't fit what Elder scrolls is and while I agree the devs should look at the elder game a lot of great points have been brought up on this thread aside from taking a break, I just don't think you should have to do that if you're in a game you love.

I am trying different class combos crafting and getting ready for housing, I am also bringing more people into the game and helping them out, I think community building is fun and it balances out a lot of the negativity you see especially on the forums.

I'm not a fan at all of data mining but the cats out of the bag that we have a lot to look forward to, I think this game is going places and is going to be around a long time, guilds like yours is a big part of what makes this community great.

Hope this helps and Take care.

The problem with the Data minning crowd is its all hype. they are spoutung these massive content updates but it goes against what the Director has said. he has already stated the Game is more of a online RPG with a focus on smaller content updates as dlc.

You may see the warden class , but we for sure know Matt has abondoned the MMO part of the game after Paul left . Paul was the only Lead dev that spoke of MMO content. so we can expect smaller single player solo centric DLC's with story over a tradtional expansion. That type of expansion would have level cap increases, new class abilites, more engaging end game dungeons and trials. the group content they do add will be more a long the Tam one stuff. No roles , face roll dungeons with a horrid RNG on traits, and 2 modes of trial Face roll easy, and challenging traditional type dynamic with heavy dps centric fights.

People are trying to spout the data mining as gospel and its not. at the raste which zos produces content its a solid 6 months sometimes a year out from when they announce it. and seeing how they have not announced anything but housing. your looking at a long stretch before you see any content. If they do do a big Expansion it will not be what people expect thats for sure. they will do warden class and orsinium sized solo centric content patch and charge way to much for it.

kylewwefan · January 2017

When you have small fish, you must eat slow.

Pirhana7_ESO · January 2017

Belazarus wrote: »

Thanks for all the responses guys!

@THEDKEXPERIENCE
You're right, I am certainly mainly a PvE player, and indeed I'm posting this predominantly on behalf of the PvE playing community. The times I have PvP'd in ESO, they have been fun, and I completely realise that there is always Cyrodiil & IC to enjoy at end game.

However I do think it's a huge shame, that PvE players should be forced to play PvP at end game, if they want to continue to enjoy & progress in the game. I believe that the game should be able to keep both communities happy for the long term

The thing is you came to a game that was designed and pitched primarily as a 3way seige warfare endgame game. They were very clear about this since production. The designer wanted bring back a popular game system and theme from an older game called Darkage of Camelot. ofcoarse they gave some other things to do.. but the game theme is centered around the 3 alliances at war and you fighting for your alliance in Cyrodiil. This is the only reason alot of people play it

You wanting things added and changed would be like joining a basketball team then saying hey basketball needs to be changed so we aren't playing each other but against the clock and so on and so on......

Being a PVE player you have alot of games to choose from designed primarily for PVE. I think GW2 would be perfect for you...