The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
[Request for Clarification] Usage of addons that perform multiple actions out of combat
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Seth_Black✭✭✭They should just simply BAN all macro related addons and all addons (if any) allowed should be tested and approved by ZOS
Macros allow you using critical charge+wrecking blow to catch someone riding with full speed on his horse ...and killing him almost instantly. That should never happen to someone with all riding skills on 60% and using rapid maneuvers.
Exploits must be harder to find and easier to track when used.Out of the night that covers me, Black as the pit from pole to pole, I thank whatever gods may be For my unconquerable soul.
It matters not how strait the gate, How charged with punishments the scroll, I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul0 -
Leandor✭✭✭✭✭
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That has nothing whatsoever to do with Addons. There are enough topics related to macroing in the sense that you are referring. Please use those and let us keep this topic single purpose.Seth_Black wrote: »They should just simply BAN all macro related addons and all addons (if any) allowed should be tested and approved by ZOS
Macros allow you using critical charge+wrecking blow to catch someone riding with full speed on his horse ...and killing him almost instantly. That should never happen to someone with all riding skills on 60% and using rapid maneuvers.
Exploits must be harder to find and easier to track when used.1 -
Seth_Black✭✭✭
That has nothing whatsoever to do with Addons. There are enough topics related to macroing in the sense that you are referring. Please use those and let us keep this topic single purpose.Seth_Black wrote: »They should just simply BAN all macro related addons and all addons (if any) allowed should be tested and approved by ZOS
Macros allow you using critical charge+wrecking blow to catch someone riding with full speed on his horse ...and killing him almost instantly. That should never happen to someone with all riding skills on 60% and using rapid maneuvers.
Exploits must be harder to find and easier to track when used.
It does A LOT. Just look for some more 'unofficial' addons, not accessible to majority of players, not posted by esoui, curse, minion or whatever site you know and you'll see what I'm talking about, stuff close to famous waRPacks is already made. ADDONS in general have huge potential of providing unfair advantages over other players, exploits, hacks and just pure cheats. For some it's just cosmetics, health bars and pretty icons ...but dig deeper. Undermap farming, auto-crafting. Wonder how gold sellers STILL operate? This time just outside of ESO.
If you can't google stuff try dpWB
Out of the night that covers me, Black as the pit from pole to pole, I thank whatever gods may be For my unconquerable soul.
It matters not how strait the gate, How charged with punishments the scroll, I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul0 -
Splosh✭✭Seth_Black wrote: »
That has nothing whatsoever to do with Addons. There are enough topics related to macroing in the sense that you are referring. Please use those and let us keep this topic single purpose.Seth_Black wrote: »They should just simply BAN all macro related addons and all addons (if any) allowed should be tested and approved by ZOS
Macros allow you using critical charge+wrecking blow to catch someone riding with full speed on his horse ...and killing him almost instantly. That should never happen to someone with all riding skills on 60% and using rapid maneuvers.
Exploits must be harder to find and easier to track when used.
It does A LOT. Just look for some more 'unofficial' addons, not accessible to majority of players, not posted by esoui, curse, minion or whatever site you know and you'll see what I'm talking about, stuff close to famous waRPacks is already made. ADDONS in general have huge potential of providing unfair advantages over other players, exploits, hacks and just pure cheats. For some it's just cosmetics, health bars and pretty icons ...but dig deeper. Undermap farming, auto-crafting. Wonder how gold sellers STILL operate? This time just outside of ESO.
If you can't google stuff try dpWB
This Discussion is about addons which use the offical addon API provided by ZOS.
Not about Bot Programms or the "Director of Public Works and Building" 0o0 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Automation is kind of broad. Many addons are doing at least one thing that can technically qualify as automation. Hopefully this thread doesn't promp people to start harassing the add-on community. If a public add-on is illegal I am sure zos will handle it if they view it as a problem.Edited by timidobserver on August 7, 2015 1:00PMV16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)0 -
r.jan_emailb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭So even changing my gear with an addon is not allowed? Get real ZOS, your interface is a joke. Add a gear manager and fix that thing you call inventory... jeez.Edited by r.jan_emailb16_ESO on August 7, 2015 1:04PMLairgren | DC Dragonknight - August Palatine
playing for eXile
I'm done, CU somewhere else.1 -
Eiagra✭✭✭✭✭Sort of like jaywalking. It may technically be against the rules, but they're only going to harass you over it if they're a jerk.
So, the question becomes: Is Roomba akin to jaywalking, or more like assault?██████ █████████ ███████ In verity.0 -
Merlight✭✭✭✭✭
@Eiagra described it well. Bank non-stacking is a bug, Roomba is a workaround, and it's cheaper for ZOS to leave it be, than to forbid Roomba and fix the bug.If their API does allow automation, it is their fault if it gets used. Every update, there is tens of pages of changes and improvements to this API. If they do not condone addons like Roomba, why do they not change this API?
Edit: more precisely, guild bank non-stacking is itself a workaround ZOS did to prevent item duping. But the point remains, they'd have to fix the underlying bug that resulted in item duping, in order to enable proper stacking.
Technically, you're supposed to learn about it before you enter the game.Why do they make the players responsible and that in a way that they have to get punished before they learn about it?They only reply we got so far is by one of the forum moderators. I don't want to devalue your input @ZOS_MollyH, but I would like to hear from the responsible developer directly that this is ZOS' final ruling. AFAIK, that would be @ZOS_ChipHilseberg, but I tagged him before and got no response.
Chip's been away since last week and will be for two more weeks.
Anyway, this whole issue is moot. People have been using keyboard/mouse macros to do various combat combos with one click. Some figured out how to macro-farm resource nodes while sleeping. You can't do anything like that with an add-on.Edited by Merlight on August 7, 2015 2:03PMEU ‣ Wabbajack nostalgic ‣ Blackwater Blade defender ‣ Kyne wanderer
The offspring of the root of all evil in ESO by DeanTheCat
Why ESO needs a monthly subscription
When an MMO is designed around a revenue model rather than around fun, it doesn’t have a long-term future. ― Richard A. Bartle
Their idea of transparent, at least when it comes to communication, bears a striking resemblance to a block of coal. ― lordrichter
... in the balance of power between the accountants and marketing types against the artists, developers and those who generally want to build and run a good game then that balance needs to always be in favour of the latter - because the former will drag the game into the ground for every last bean they can squeeze out of it. ― Santie Claws1 -
Leandor✭✭✭✭✭
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Thanks for your input. I do agree that from a theoretical perspective, you are right on the "read up before you play", but there is a, let's call it "right of tradition".
@Eiagra described it well. Bank non-stacking is a bug, Roomba is a workaround, and it's cheaper for ZOS to leave it be, than to forbid Roomba and fix the bug.If their API does allow automation, it is their fault if it gets used. Every update, there is tens of pages of changes and improvements to this API. If they do not condone addons like Roomba, why do they not change this API?
Technically, you're supposed to learn about it before you enter the game.Why do they make the players responsible and that in a way that they have to get punished before they learn about it?They only reply we got so far is by one of the forum moderators. I don't want to devalue your input @ZOS_MollyH, but I would like to hear from the responsible developer directly that this is ZOS' final ruling. AFAIK, that would be @ZOS_ChipHilseberg, but I tagged him before and got no response.
Chip's been away since last week and will be for two more weeks.
Anyway, this whole issue is moot. People have been using keyboard/mouse macros to do various combat combos with one click. Some figured out how to macro-farm resource nodes while sleeping. You can't do anything like that with an add-on.
Outfitter's first iteration existed prior to official game release on PC. Roomba being another prime example: it has been proposed as a solution many times on the forums and in threads that have been closely followed by greens (as evident by the number of posts). Even with their terms of use, one has to consider it at least good practice to make players aware that they are proposing a solution that involves a banable offense.
I am of the firm opinion that this ruling was a generic reply without research into what was behind it - if I wouldn't have used the term "automation" in my initial text, but left it at "convenience addons", the reply would have been the opposite.
I do not consider these addons an "unfair advantage" in any way and form. I can do that all by hand. It just takes longer. It does not change the outcome of any encounter, since I can't use it in combat. There is nothing whatsoever to warrant the ruling given - except for "tl/dr, automation baaaaad".1 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I read this with much amusement.
Comments from ZOS on these things in the forum have, in the past, superseded comments from support. My experience is that the forum moderators have the right answer and that the response from support may be subject to revision here on the forum. I am sure that they are working to correct this, but I am not willing to say that I trust that it is fixed.
People are focused on automation, but the TOS actually does not just cover automation. It actually prohibits software that, in any way, provides influence or advantage to playing abilities, or influence or advantage to use of the Services.
"You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services."
I hope no one is still using FTC, or similar.
A lot of add-ons automate or make it easier to do things. All of that is suspect under the TOS.
Edited by Elsonso on August 7, 2015 3:57PM0 -
Reilech✭✭✭DoesZOS_MollyH wrote: »Hi @Leandor ,
Macros and addons that allow players to automate and perform multiple actions with a single keystroke is a violation of our Terms of Service. All examples you provided do fall under automation, and as such are not allowed via our Terms of Service.
Where is the line between automation and legal addons? Are Infobars with inventory/weapon-information forbidden automation because you dont have to strike a key to know the filling level of weapon enchants or inventory?
1 Key = 1 Action is no automation.
Are RP-addons automation, because you dont have to type the whole emote yourself?0 -
Gyudan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭lordrichter wrote: »I read this with much amusement.
Comments from ZOS on these things in the forum have, in the past, superseded comments from support. My experience is that the forum moderators have the right answer and that the response from support may be subject to revision here on the forum. I am sure that they are working to correct this, but I am not willing to say that I trust that it is fixed.
People are focused on automation, but the TOS actually does not just cover automation. It actually prohibits software that, in any way, provides influence or advantage to playing abilities, or influence or advantage to use of the Services.
"You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services."
I hope no one is still using FTC, or similar.
A lot of add-ons automate or make it easier to do things. All of that is suspect under the TOS.
A few items that could be caught into this definition:
- Add-ons allowing players to craft multiple items without bashing the "R" key multiple times
- Teamspeak, a software influencing player groups to behave in a more organized manner
- A good quality headset, adding an easier 3D representation of incoming attacks, allowing the player to react faster.
- A chair, a piece of furniture providing support to the player's behind and back, allowing him to play in a more efficient manner.Wololo.0 -
Eiagra✭✭✭✭✭Okay, now we're getting silly...
I believe the ToS is intended to promote a spirit of fair play, with broad rules intended to crack down on those who are NOT engaging in fair play. Sure, one person may have a more ergonomic chair or desk to give them an advantage, but the Terms of Service aren't intended to cover furniture or other assorted home decor.
Add-ons like Roomba do not interfere with the spirit of fair play.
Add-ons like FTC could be argued as providing an advantage, but are generally only providing information that is available in one form or another by the default UI anyway, even if in a more simplistic form. The player still has to expend effort to learn how to parse the information and develop tactics on how to respond to said information. They also have to have enough wit and dexterity to execute said tactics, and the flexibility to change tactics if the situation changes.
External software that bots the game to grind experience and loot, or otherwise automate the game, is not in the spirit of fair play. There's no effort/skill to reward trade-off (rewards being advancement, currency, equipment, and satisfying quest completion), and since dungeons and nodes are shared rather than instanced, this can disrupt the enjoyment of the game for other players -- for example, if a bot is grinding delve bosses for loot, or farming material nodes, those resources become unavailable for legitimate players.
I don't forsee the developers cracking down on the use of feature improvement (like Roomba) or information transparency (like FTC) add-ons or other "grey area" apps, such as the software that came with your gaming keyboard or software that makes communications more expedient. If they do, then the player community can respond in protest if they feel it necessary.
But worrying about Zenimax banning us for owning a better chair than someone else is unnecessary.██████ █████████ ███████ In verity.0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Okay, now we're getting silly...
I believe the ToS is intended to promote a spirit of fair play, with broad rules intended to crack down on those who are NOT engaging in fair play. Sure, one person may have a more ergonomic chair or desk to give them an advantage, but the Terms of Service aren't intended to cover furniture or other assorted home decor.
You are missing the point. It is more important to know what ZeniMax intends to enforce, what they think is "the spirit of fair play", than it is to know whether something is allowed under the ToS. The ToS can be interpreted much more broadly than they obviously intend to enforce.
No, ZeniMax is not going to wage war against gaming chairs. No reasonable person would expect that. However, if they ever decide to do that, the ToS will not need to be changed.
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Eiagra✭✭✭✭✭lordrichter wrote: »You are missing the point. It is more important to know what ZeniMax intends to enforce, what they think is "the spirit of fair play", than it is to know whether something is allowed under the ToS. The ToS can be interpreted much more broadly than they obviously intend to enforce.
No, ZeniMax is not going to wage war against gaming chairs. No reasonable person would expect that. However, if they ever decide to do that, the ToS will not need to be changed.
I don't disagree, but I also don't believe it's fair to hang Zenimax because of actions they could potentially take, but haven't. If we start hearing of players being banned for using Roomba, FTC, or similar benign add-ons, then it may be time for pitchforks and torches to protest unfair or unjustified actions.
As it stands now, yes, we can criticize these blanket statements for being potentially unfair if acted upon, and changing the ToS would mollify those who might find themselves affected. But just as a glitch in the game can be exploited, so too can loopholes in the ToS. Care must be taken.
I imagine that suggestions on how the ToS should read would be constructive feedback for Zenimax, especially from anyone with legal experience. Let's hear them. What wording would make the playerbase more comfortable? What changes would be feasible/unfeasible logistically?██████ █████████ ███████ In verity.0 -
Leandor✭✭✭✭✭
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Precisely this was the initiating occurrence for this thread.If we start hearing of players being banned for using Roomba, FTC, or similar benign add-ons, then it may be time for pitchforks and torches to protest unfair or unjustified actions.
EDIT for elaboration: Several topics popped up indicating MultiCraft as reason, with some cited messages received, stating that disciplinary action was based on usage of addons. As usual, no refutation or confirmation by PTB could be found, also in regards to something other being in play or not. In order to clarify for myself as well as make others aware, this topic was created, omitting those disciplinary actions in order to prevent locking.Edited by Leandor on August 24, 2015 10:13AM0 -
Supernovas✭✭ZOS_MollyH wrote: »Greetings,
Per our terms of service we do not provide support for any addons, which includes a list of "approved" addons.
Our terms of service have always stated that automation is a violation of our TOS and CoC, and we do apologize for any misinformation that has been communicated previously.
If you have specific questions regarding appropriate use, please feel free to contact support for further clarification!
i have put in a ticket for "clarification" and u sent me a script email saying to ignore players, and u ended the conversation.
i think this is why people are upset, you say this is a illegal issue, then we dont see people banned for it, and when we question why, we get ignored.1 -
Megalex1✭✭✭@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_CaseyCoffman
Hello can any ZOS employee clarify whether or not we can be banned for using an addon that crafts more than 1 item at at time?
The ESO API specifically offers functions to create items, can we be banned for fully using ESO's API which are given to us by the programmers?
Specifically addons like MultiCraft that can craft many potions in a click, etc.
Ppl on reddit are claiming that you can be banned for using legit API calls. Would love some clarification from mods.
If it's not allowed, any plan to restrict the API with functions that won't accidently get us banned?1 -
AllPlayAndNoWork✭✭✭✭✭Multi Craft has 98,939 downloads on ESOUI alone - that's a lot of peeps to ban....................1 -
qrichou✭✭✭So if i read this right ,there is a bankbug wich is fixed by players by addon and the devs are not happy about it ? WTF IS WRONG HERE
because its possible0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I believe that there is a wide variety of add ons that could be considered violations of the ToS, should ZOS decide it was important to enforce it.
They have a list of all of the add ons that we use, as this information is apparently sent to ZOS via some process. It might be as simple as logging into the game, or it could be when bugs are submitted.
I think they are deliberately vague on this matter so that they have freedom, right up until the point they decide. Schrodinger's ToS... the state of the ToS enforcement is indeterminate until ZOS comes along and enforces it.
Add ons that worry me are things that craft multiple items, or process multiple items, with or without the input of the user. The thing I look for when I am looking to stay away from an add on is anything that does an action for me where, anywhere in the description, it is referred to as, or implied or be, "automatic".
The problem is not the API calls, but how they are used.2 -
Lumbermill_Emperor✭✭✭✭AllPlayAndNoWork wrote: »Multi Craft has 98,939 downloads on ESOUI alone - that's a lot of peeps to ban....................
any other official words about automatic addons?
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EnviousStruggle✭✭✭haha i found this funny topic
@ZOS_MollyH hey can you clarify what yo usaid, bcause it was abit ridiculous?
or if you stop working for ZOS
can anyone else clarify this situation?
@ZOS_GinaBruno may be?0
