CP bigotry on this game is out of control. Something needs to be done.

Stopnaggin · December 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

I'll put this simply.

Low CP people have no buisness queuing vet. Hell, I didn't queue for things back in the day until I completed both Cadwells silver and gold. And that's how it needs to be.

CP is a barrier to entry. They need to impliment requirements.

This is false. Just for the sake of argument, lets say I roll another toon, lvl 48 I have max cp from a previous toon but you can't see that. Does this mean I don't know how to play? Absolutely not. Simplest thing is to not run gf if you don't want to group with lower cp.

Content bought and paid for should be playable, in all honesty running gf for the ones that have cetrain priorities is stupid. Why not run with like minded individuals and not have to worry about who you get grouped with?

Jeremy · December 2016

SquareSausage wrote: »

no-one is running dungeons for fun

I run dungeons for fun. Or at least most of them.

There are only a few I run only for the rewards.

Silver_Strider · December 2016

CP really should be anonymous or at the very least capped at 160 visible to others.

More CP mean NOTHING other than you've played the game for X amount of time longer than Y player.

The other day, I PUG'd vCoS with a CP150 stamblade and a CP540 stamsorc that had never done that dungeon before AND WE CLEARED IT. Why? Because we took the time to explain the mechanics of the dungeon and boss fights. It wasn't perfect ofc, we wiped twice, but considering the circumstances, I felt it was amazing and by the end of the dungeon, the CP 150 had made it to CP160 so he got a maxed out Velidreth helm for all that.

I'm not saying that there aren't bad low CP players but I've seen just as many max CP characters just spamming Dizzy Swing, Snipe, or Light attacks that I learned to not judge people by their CP but how well they play.

NBrookus · December 2016

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Salene last boss is tough and with scroll almost impossible for low level CP,

I would never waste time, i did many times but low cp player end up with time waste..

Pugged Selene with a couple of 200ish CP DPSers today. I kinda expected we'd skip hard mode, but they were doing well, so we read the scroll. It was a little rough and took a few tries, but they did just fine and weren't being carried either.

Just chill and give players a chance to prove themselves before making assumptions.

Better upload video, 200 CP dps doing salene vet hard?

Yes. We wiped 3 times. The mechanics aren't hard, they are just very unforgiving of mistakes. As long as DPS is high enough to outpace the adds while working on the boss, DPS is high enough.

I'm pretty sure I died more than that the first time I tried tanking vet Selene's on hard mode figuring out the "tell" on the bear slam.

kargen27 · December 2016

Sounds like the DPS elitist and the tank were buddies or guild mates. If the glitch wasn't fixed they may have had a third with them that didn't get in when the group was formed. It used to happen quite a bit when three people would try to use the group finder one of them wouldn't be a part of the group. They may have wanted to kick the other DPS to bring in a third friend or guild mate.

I've always thought if a group kicks a member that hasn't gone offline the dungeon should reset back the the beginning. I really do not like being put into a group that has already run most the dungeon.

Mitoice · December 2016

That guys was an A hole.... the only times where kicking is warranted and necessary for me is for Ruins of Mazzatun, Craddle of Shadow, Imperial prison and City of Ash and in vet, for any other dungeons, it can be done with a low CP easily.

But please, dont try those dungeons with low cps... you will not complet the dungeon, get kicked on start or people will start leaving the group, god knows how many times ive kicked people with low cps on thise dungeons.

ManwithBeard9 · December 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

I'll put this simply.

Low CP people have no buisness queuing vet. Hell, I didn't queue for things back in the day until I completed both Cadwells silver and gold. And that's how it needs to be.

CP is a barrier to entry. They need to impliment requirements.

One Tamriel was meant to to remove level gates and allow a more cohesive PVE community. Except it exposed horrible elitism coming from people like you.

Jeremy · December 2016

kargen27 wrote: »

Sounds like the DPS elitist and the tank were buddies or guild mates. If the glitch wasn't fixed they may have had a third with them that didn't get in when the group was formed. It used to happen quite a bit when three people would try to use the group finder one of them wouldn't be a part of the group. They may have wanted to kick the other DPS to bring in a third friend or guild mate.

I've always thought if a group kicks a member that hasn't gone offline the dungeon should reset back the the beginning. I really do not like being put into a group that has already run most the dungeon.

They should just give you an option to either turn on or off joining a Dungeon already in progress like they do on Final Fantasy 14. I think that would be a good way to handle it.

exeeter702 · December 2016

Jeremy wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

CP shouldn't matter for something like Selene's Web, but I don't agree with anonymous CP. The general population is already being punished enough with the 15 minute timer and being unable to manage groups. A few bad Apples don't warrant punishing the entire community.

Well then they need to put a 160 cap or something on Veteran Dungeons - because there is just no excuse for the kind of crap low CP players have to go through on this game when they sign up to do vet dungeons.

And it's not just a few bad apples. It's a widespread practice that happens almost every time I see a low CP player inside a dungeon. And I run a lot of dungeons.

Doesn't matter to me. I have never vote kicked anyone from a group that wasn't afk. I shouldn't have to deal with 15 minute timer or the removal of cp visibility. I'd be fine with them only allowing inactive players to be vote kicked or some other approach that doesn't inconvenience everyone.

How about this then - we make it optional? You can choose whether or not to have your CP visible to other players. That way you aren't forced into anything - but other players who don't want to be pre-judged due to their CP levels can avoid being done so.

you can possibly be that naive man.....

Jeremy · December 2016

exeeter702 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

CP shouldn't matter for something like Selene's Web, but I don't agree with anonymous CP. The general population is already being punished enough with the 15 minute timer and being unable to manage groups. A few bad Apples don't warrant punishing the entire community.

Well then they need to put a 160 cap or something on Veteran Dungeons - because there is just no excuse for the kind of crap low CP players have to go through on this game when they sign up to do vet dungeons.

And it's not just a few bad apples. It's a widespread practice that happens almost every time I see a low CP player inside a dungeon. And I run a lot of dungeons.

Doesn't matter to me. I have never vote kicked anyone from a group that wasn't afk. I shouldn't have to deal with 15 minute timer or the removal of cp visibility. I'd be fine with them only allowing inactive players to be vote kicked or some other approach that doesn't inconvenience everyone.

How about this then - we make it optional? You can choose whether or not to have your CP visible to other players. That way you aren't forced into anything - but other players who don't want to be pre-judged due to their CP levels can avoid being done so.

you can possibly be that naive man.....

I would prefer just to make it invisible all-together. I was just trying to find a compromise with that poster.

Iselin · December 2016

Whether we like it or not there ARE a few problems with those under CP160 doing vet dungeons--especially the 2's and DLC ones as DPS.

1. Most players, if they have any sense, save all their keys until they are CP160 so as not to waste them on shoulders that will just need to be replaced in a few days. This means that generally they are not benefiting from the added monster mask/shoulder DPS.
2. Just like above, unless they are very gold rich, they won't be bothering to upgrade their weapons and armor to legendary gold for the same reason. DPS missing there as well.
3. Chances also are that due to the trait RNG they're not using all or mostly Divines and Sharpened, much less vMA or trial weapons. DPS missing there as well.

With the addition of keys to completion of pledges in normal mode with 1T, there really is very little reason for sub-CP160s to queue for vet dungeons and IMO, CP160 should become the new entry level for veteran pledges, not level 50.

Why would you even queue for veteran when you're under CP160 when the key and even XP reward for randoms is the same in normal and vet. You don't even get an extra key for vet unless you do the last boss in HM and that's really pushing it for a low CP group. Are you doing it for possible purple jewelry drops that you're going to replace anyway once you're CP160? That seems like a really silly and wasteful reason.

CP by itself is not really the issue. But it is an indication that the sub-CP160 player is not going to be putting out good DPS due to lack of optimal gear. Do yourselves a favor and stick to normal dungeon runs until you have the gear for veteran runs.

SquareSausage · December 2016

Iselin wrote: »

Whether we like it or not there ARE a few problems with those under CP160 doing vet dungeons--especially the 2's and DLC ones as DPS.

1. Most players, if they have any sense, save all their keys until they are CP160 so as not to waste them on shoulders that will just need to be replaced in a few days. This means that generally they are not benefiting from the added monster mask/shoulder DPS.
2. Just like above, unless they are very gold rich, they won't be bothering to upgrade their weapons and armor to legendary gold for the same reason. DPS missing there as well.
3. Chances also are that due to the trait RNG they're not using all or mostly Divines and Sharpened, much less vMA or trial weapons. DPS missing there as well.

With the addition of keys to completion of pledges in normal mode with 1T, there really is very little reason for sub-CP160s to queue for vet dungeons and IMO, CP160 should become the new entry level for veteran pledges, not level 50.

Why would you even queue for veteran when you're under CP160 when the key and even XP reward for randoms is the same in normal and vet. You don't even get an extra key for vet unless you do the last boss in HM and that's really pushing it for a low CP group. Are you doing it for possible purple jewelry drops that you're going to replace anyway once you're CP160? That seems like a really silly and wasteful reason.

CP by itself is not really the issue. But it is an indication that the sub-CP160 player is not going to be putting out good DPS due to lack of optimal gear. Do yourselves a favor and stick to normal dungeon runs until you have the gear for veteran runs.

I agree, CP160 should be for vet mode, players below that will either have mismatched gear sets or gear that is too low for them, they should stick to normal. Prob don't know the mechanics, usually arent using food, generally pulling low dps.

Doing the dungeon on normal is usually fine, except for some of the II dungeons and the DLC dungeons.

The only reason I can think of is trying to get 2 keys? or Getting more undaunted experience?
Either way, sub CP160 in vets just makes the dungeon such a drag and drawn out

Jeremy · December 2016

Iselin wrote: »

Whether we like it or not there ARE a few problems with those under CP160 doing vet dungeons--especially the 2's and DLC ones as DPS.

1. Most players, if they have any sense, save all their keys until they are CP160 so as not to waste them on shoulders that will just need to be replaced in a few days. This means that generally they are not benefiting from the added monster mask/shoulder DPS.
2. Just like above, unless they are very gold rich, they won't be bothering to upgrade their weapons and armor to legendary gold for the same reason. DPS missing there as well.
3. Chances also are that due to the trait RNG they're not using all or mostly Divines and Sharpened, much less vMA or trial weapons. DPS missing there as well.

With the addition of keys to completion of pledges in normal mode with 1T, there really is very little reason for sub-CP160s to queue for vet dungeons and IMO, CP160 should become the new entry level for veteran pledges, not level 50.

Why would you even queue for veteran when you're under CP160 when the key and even XP reward for randoms is the same in normal and vet. You don't even get an extra key for vet unless you do the last boss in HM and that's really pushing it for a low CP group. Are you doing it for possible purple jewelry drops that you're going to replace anyway once you're CP160? That seems like a really silly and wasteful reason.

CP by itself is not really the issue. But it is an indication that the sub-CP160 player is not going to be putting out good DPS due to lack of optimal gear. Do yourselves a favor and stick to normal dungeon runs until you have the gear for veteran runs.

There can be problems in those dungeons even if the DPS are over CP 160.

It's less about CP and more about the player and his or her own abilities.

Anyway, this was not even an issue in the example I gave. I am confident we could have won that fight if only the other DPS had helped instead of pout in the corner because I would not follow his lead and kick the low CP player for no good reason. In any case - he should have at least given it a try.

Just give the player a chance. If it turns out they don't have enough damage most of the time they will leave on their own accord anyway. This thread is more about combating CP bigotry. If there is a legitimate issue with not enough damage being done - then that is another matter.

nordsavage · December 2016

What needs to be done is you all need to go get some EXP pots and grind your slow ass up to speed. If I have 800+ without going out of my way you can at least hit the cap.

Jeremy · December 2016

SquareSausage wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Whether we like it or not there ARE a few problems with those under CP160 doing vet dungeons--especially the 2's and DLC ones as DPS.

1. Most players, if they have any sense, save all their keys until they are CP160 so as not to waste them on shoulders that will just need to be replaced in a few days. This means that generally they are not benefiting from the added monster mask/shoulder DPS.
2. Just like above, unless they are very gold rich, they won't be bothering to upgrade their weapons and armor to legendary gold for the same reason. DPS missing there as well.
3. Chances also are that due to the trait RNG they're not using all or mostly Divines and Sharpened, much less vMA or trial weapons. DPS missing there as well.

With the addition of keys to completion of pledges in normal mode with 1T, there really is very little reason for sub-CP160s to queue for vet dungeons and IMO, CP160 should become the new entry level for veteran pledges, not level 50.

Why would you even queue for veteran when you're under CP160 when the key and even XP reward for randoms is the same in normal and vet. You don't even get an extra key for vet unless you do the last boss in HM and that's really pushing it for a low CP group. Are you doing it for possible purple jewelry drops that you're going to replace anyway once you're CP160? That seems like a really silly and wasteful reason.

CP by itself is not really the issue. But it is an indication that the sub-CP160 player is not going to be putting out good DPS due to lack of optimal gear. Do yourselves a favor and stick to normal dungeon runs until you have the gear for veteran runs.

I agree, CP160 should be for vet mode, players below that will either have mismatched gear sets or gear that is too low for them, they should stick to normal. Prob don't know the mechanics, usually arent using food, generally pulling low dps.

Doing the dungeon on normal is usually fine, except for some of the II dungeons and the DLC dungeons.

The only reason I can think of is trying to get 2 keys? or Getting more undaunted experience?
Either way, sub CP160 in vets just makes the dungeon such a drag and drawn out

I have done many veteran dungeons with players under 160 that weren't such a drag and drawn out. In fact - many times they are more fun as everything isn't dead before I can finish a single rotation.

Prof_Bawbag · December 2016

Some people have stated they don't run dungeons for fun, just for the rewards/xp and some of those people are probably the same people who find grinding for gear a necessity and a ballache too. I'm wondering what do they find fun? It sometimes comes across as a number of players just continuously do things they find monotonous and not very fun. If it's not doing dungeons just for the sake of it, they're farming vMA for hours on end or boss runs for gear. Do some people genuinely do hours upon hours of *** they find dull just so they can have 5mins of actual fun? I mean, what fun things do you actually do with that gear if you're mainly just a PvE player? I really wonder why some people play this game. It's been a real eye opener.

Iselin · December 2016

Jeremy wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Whether we like it or not there ARE a few problems with those under CP160 doing vet dungeons--especially the 2's and DLC ones as DPS.

1. Most players, if they have any sense, save all their keys until they are CP160 so as not to waste them on shoulders that will just need to be replaced in a few days. This means that generally they are not benefiting from the added monster mask/shoulder DPS.
2. Just like above, unless they are very gold rich, they won't be bothering to upgrade their weapons and armor to legendary gold for the same reason. DPS missing there as well.
3. Chances also are that due to the trait RNG they're not using all or mostly Divines and Sharpened, much less vMA or trial weapons. DPS missing there as well.

With the addition of keys to completion of pledges in normal mode with 1T, there really is very little reason for sub-CP160s to queue for vet dungeons and IMO, CP160 should become the new entry level for veteran pledges, not level 50.

Why would you even queue for veteran when you're under CP160 when the key and even XP reward for randoms is the same in normal and vet. You don't even get an extra key for vet unless you do the last boss in HM and that's really pushing it for a low CP group. Are you doing it for possible purple jewelry drops that you're going to replace anyway once you're CP160? That seems like a really silly and wasteful reason.

CP by itself is not really the issue. But it is an indication that the sub-CP160 player is not going to be putting out good DPS due to lack of optimal gear. Do yourselves a favor and stick to normal dungeon runs until you have the gear for veteran runs.

There can be problems in those dungeons even if the DPS are over CP 160.

It's less about CP and more about the player and his or her own abilities.

Anyway, this was not even an issue in the example I gave. I am confident we could have won that fight if only the other DPS had helped instead of pout in the corner because I would not follow his lead and kick the low CP player for no good reason. In any case - he should have at least given it a try.

Just give the player a chance. If it turns out they don't have enough damage most of the time they will leave on their own accord anyway. This thread is more about combating CP bigotry. If there is a legitimate issue with not enough damage being done - then that is another matter.

I wasn't even thinking about your example. You had an obstinate *** in your group that pouted and went on strike when he couldn't get his way. Those people exist and will always exist no matter what mechanics change or stay the same.

I was just thinking out loud in general terms about what might possess someone under CP160 to even queue for vet and suggesting that they shouldn't

Jeremy · December 2016

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Some people have stated they don't run dungeons for fun, just for the rewards/xp and some of those people are probably the same people who find grinding for gear a necessity and a ballache too. I'm wondering what do they find fun? It sometimes comes across as a number of players just continuously do things they find monotonous and not very fun. If it's not doing dungeons just for the sake of it, they're farming vMA for hours on end or boss runs for gear. Do some people genuinely do hours upon hours of *** they find dull just so they can have 5mins of actual fun? I really wonder why some people play this game. It's been a real eye opener.

Yeah I agree. I play video games to have fun. If I want to grind mindlessly for hours doing something I don't enjoy then I would go get a minimum wage job. At least that way I'd make some money while I did it.

Stopnaggin · December 2016

SquareSausage wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Whether we like it or not there ARE a few problems with those under CP160 doing vet dungeons--especially the 2's and DLC ones as DPS.

1. Most players, if they have any sense, save all their keys until they are CP160 so as not to waste them on shoulders that will just need to be replaced in a few days. This means that generally they are not benefiting from the added monster mask/shoulder DPS.
2. Just like above, unless they are very gold rich, they won't be bothering to upgrade their weapons and armor to legendary gold for the same reason. DPS missing there as well.
3. Chances also are that due to the trait RNG they're not using all or mostly Divines and Sharpened, much less vMA or trial weapons. DPS missing there as well.

With the addition of keys to completion of pledges in normal mode with 1T, there really is very little reason for sub-CP160s to queue for vet dungeons and IMO, CP160 should become the new entry level for veteran pledges, not level 50.

Why would you even queue for veteran when you're under CP160 when the key and even XP reward for randoms is the same in normal and vet. You don't even get an extra key for vet unless you do the last boss in HM and that's really pushing it for a low CP group. Are you doing it for possible purple jewelry drops that you're going to replace anyway once you're CP160? That seems like a really silly and wasteful reason.

CP by itself is not really the issue. But it is an indication that the sub-CP160 player is not going to be putting out good DPS due to lack of optimal gear. Do yourselves a favor and stick to normal dungeon runs until you have the gear for veteran runs.

I agree, CP160 should be for vet mode, players below that will either have mismatched gear sets or gear that is too low for them, they should stick to normal. Prob don't know the mechanics, usually arent using food, generally pulling low dps.

Doing the dungeon on normal is usually fine, except for some of the II dungeons and the DLC dungeons.

The only reason I can think of is trying to get 2 keys? or Getting more undaunted experience?
Either way, sub CP160 in vets just makes the dungeon such a drag and drawn out

That's a pretty wide brush stroke. You assume they don't know traits and foods. I have run plenty of vet dungeons with all levels of cp, some good some bad. Either way we got them done. HM different story but just vet nah.

Quick question though, why would you use the gf knowing that you could end up with lower cp players? I know if I'm looking for speed runs or no death runs I usually group with people I know. Thay way I can play with people I am familiar with and know their styles and abilities.

Hand_Bacon · December 2016

Painting a complex problem with broad stroke. Elitism, CP BIgotry, etc etc.

I don't know how much time I've wasted trying to help people in vet dungeons, who happen to be low CP, but also lack the humility to accept help. It doesn't matter how nice you approach the subject they just refuse help.

Depending on my mood and what I've experienced lately, if I q for a dungeon as a tank and see all other members below 100cp, I tend to instantly leave.

The onus is not solely on the high CP players to make things okay for everyone else, it also falls on the newer players to listen and accept help.

Prof_Bawbag · December 2016

Jeremy wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Some people have stated they don't run dungeons for fun, just for the rewards/xp and some of those people are probably the same people who find grinding for gear a necessity and a ballache too. I'm wondering what do they find fun? It sometimes comes across as a number of players just continuously do things they find monotonous and not very fun. If it's not doing dungeons just for the sake of it, they're farming vMA for hours on end or boss runs for gear. Do some people genuinely do hours upon hours of *** they find dull just so they can have 5mins of actual fun? I really wonder why some people play this game. It's been a real eye opener.

Yeah I agree. I play video games to have fun. If I want to grind mindlessly for hours doing something I don't enjoy then I would go get a minimum wage job. At least that way I'd make some money while I did it.

It's as if they just need that gear so they can do more stuff they find monotonous. it's all rather bizarre. I'd see the point if they were PvP players just needing the gear asap, then they go back doing what they enjoy, but most of the people who complain about having to spend longer than necessary doing mundane crap are PvE players. It's like they enjoy nothing about the game and the gear they're after adds nothing of note to their overall enjoyment.

Iselin · December 2016

Iselin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Whether we like it or not there ARE a few problems with those under CP160 doing vet dungeons--especially the 2's and DLC ones as DPS.

1. Most players, if they have any sense, save all their keys until they are CP160 so as not to waste them on shoulders that will just need to be replaced in a few days. This means that generally they are not benefiting from the added monster mask/shoulder DPS.
2. Just like above, unless they are very gold rich, they won't be bothering to upgrade their weapons and armor to legendary gold for the same reason. DPS missing there as well.
3. Chances also are that due to the trait RNG they're not using all or mostly Divines and Sharpened, much less vMA or trial weapons. DPS missing there as well.

With the addition of keys to completion of pledges in normal mode with 1T, there really is very little reason for sub-CP160s to queue for vet dungeons and IMO, CP160 should become the new entry level for veteran pledges, not level 50.

Why would you even queue for veteran when you're under CP160 when the key and even XP reward for randoms is the same in normal and vet. You don't even get an extra key for vet unless you do the last boss in HM and that's really pushing it for a low CP group. Are you doing it for possible purple jewelry drops that you're going to replace anyway once you're CP160? That seems like a really silly and wasteful reason.

CP by itself is not really the issue. But it is an indication that the sub-CP160 player is not going to be putting out good DPS due to lack of optimal gear. Do yourselves a favor and stick to normal dungeon runs until you have the gear for veteran runs.

There can be problems in those dungeons even if the DPS are over CP 160.

It's less about CP and more about the player and his or her own abilities.

Anyway, this was not even an issue in the example I gave. I am confident we could have won that fight if only the other DPS had helped instead of pout in the corner because I would not follow his lead and kick the low CP player for no good reason. In any case - he should have at least given it a try.

Just give the player a chance. If it turns out they don't have enough damage most of the time they will leave on their own accord anyway. This thread is more about combating CP bigotry. If there is a legitimate issue with not enough damage being done - then that is another matter.

I wasn't even thinking about your example. You had an obstinate *** in your group that pouted and went on strike when he couldn't get his way. Those people exist and will always exist no matter what mechanics change or stay the same.

I was just thinking out loud in general terms about what might possess someone under CP160 to even queue for vet and suggesting that they shouldn't

Heck even though I'm high CP I often queue for random normals instead of vet to avoid vet dungeon drama and often just help new players get through dungeons they're finding tough. I got Darkshade 2 as my normal random a couple of days ago and got in a group of 20ish level players who were frustrated with the last boss. They were just the 2 leftovers who hadn't yet quit in frustration. I showed them how to group tight and heal through the green poison phase (which is extremely easy to do in normal without vothering with levers) and we got it done first try. I enjoy moments like that when new players learn about and appreciate the little tricks.

Jeremy · December 2016

Iselin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Whether we like it or not there ARE a few problems with those under CP160 doing vet dungeons--especially the 2's and DLC ones as DPS.

1. Most players, if they have any sense, save all their keys until they are CP160 so as not to waste them on shoulders that will just need to be replaced in a few days. This means that generally they are not benefiting from the added monster mask/shoulder DPS.
2. Just like above, unless they are very gold rich, they won't be bothering to upgrade their weapons and armor to legendary gold for the same reason. DPS missing there as well.
3. Chances also are that due to the trait RNG they're not using all or mostly Divines and Sharpened, much less vMA or trial weapons. DPS missing there as well.

With the addition of keys to completion of pledges in normal mode with 1T, there really is very little reason for sub-CP160s to queue for vet dungeons and IMO, CP160 should become the new entry level for veteran pledges, not level 50.

Why would you even queue for veteran when you're under CP160 when the key and even XP reward for randoms is the same in normal and vet. You don't even get an extra key for vet unless you do the last boss in HM and that's really pushing it for a low CP group. Are you doing it for possible purple jewelry drops that you're going to replace anyway once you're CP160? That seems like a really silly and wasteful reason.

CP by itself is not really the issue. But it is an indication that the sub-CP160 player is not going to be putting out good DPS due to lack of optimal gear. Do yourselves a favor and stick to normal dungeon runs until you have the gear for veteran runs.

There can be problems in those dungeons even if the DPS are over CP 160.

It's less about CP and more about the player and his or her own abilities.

Anyway, this was not even an issue in the example I gave. I am confident we could have won that fight if only the other DPS had helped instead of pout in the corner because I would not follow his lead and kick the low CP player for no good reason. In any case - he should have at least given it a try.

Just give the player a chance. If it turns out they don't have enough damage most of the time they will leave on their own accord anyway. This thread is more about combating CP bigotry. If there is a legitimate issue with not enough damage being done - then that is another matter.

I wasn't even thinking about your example. You had an obstinate *** in your group that pouted and went on strike when he couldn't get his way. Those people exist and will always exist no matter what mechanics change or stay the same.

I was just thinking out loud in general terms about what might possess someone under CP160 to even queue for vet and suggesting that they shouldn't

Well I would imagine those monster sets would be good at any level, not just post CP 160. So I can see why they queue up.

You're right that some dungeons are more demanding on DPS than others - and once a player comes to realize they don't have enough damage to complete them then they should refrain from doing them until they are better equipped. But it's going to be difficult for these players to learn which dungeons they can handle and which ones they can't if they are always kicked at the start.

exeeter702 · December 2016

Jeremy wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

CP shouldn't matter for something like Selene's Web, but I don't agree with anonymous CP. The general population is already being punished enough with the 15 minute timer and being unable to manage groups. A few bad Apples don't warrant punishing the entire community.

Well then they need to put a 160 cap or something on Veteran Dungeons - because there is just no excuse for the kind of crap low CP players have to go through on this game when they sign up to do vet dungeons.

And it's not just a few bad apples. It's a widespread practice that happens almost every time I see a low CP player inside a dungeon. And I run a lot of dungeons.

Doesn't matter to me. I have never vote kicked anyone from a group that wasn't afk. I shouldn't have to deal with 15 minute timer or the removal of cp visibility. I'd be fine with them only allowing inactive players to be vote kicked or some other approach that doesn't inconvenience everyone.

How about this then - we make it optional? You can choose whether or not to have your CP visible to other players. That way you aren't forced into anything - but other players who don't want to be pre-judged due to their CP levels can avoid being done so.

you can possibly be that naive man.....

I would prefer just to make it invisible all-together. I was just trying to compromise with that poster.

i undestand.. but to even think for a second that a compromise like that would function in an online mmo environment is absurd.

Also.. the issue is not in simply masking CP, that solves very little and only fosters an environment where underperforming players (low cp or otherwise) have one more thing they can hide behind to avoid accountability. Listen.. if you have 4 players in a group, all are strangers and for the exception 1 player who is cp30, they are all cp cap. They are matched with the group finder for a specific dungeon in an effort to get their keys. Upon reaching the last boss, they activate hardmode and proceed to fail due to a lack of dps. Outside of incredible scrutiny, the max cp players would have no idea where the issue lies.

Masking cp is a poor attempt at creating the illusion of equality in a group that only serves to create another hurdle that players need to jump through to determine who the achilles heel is in a group.

Its difficult and ZOS has developed themselves into a corner. From absolute first hand experience, i have a friend who is about to reach max cp and doesnt have the first clue what a dps rotation is, and just the other day was dueling a stam sorc. Upon asking him what class he was fighting, his answer was, and i kid you not, "a templar? ... no no wait, he hit me with ransack, it was a dk" at which point myself and a fellow other player where speechless. The other player that facepalmed with me is an individual who has never touched an mmo before eso in his life, he is barely 300 cp and has his performance down to a science. His dps is incredibly tight, and 9 times out of 10 performs better then most players we get in GF that have 100+cp more then he does. He joined the game this september whereas the awful friend of ours mentioned prior, has been at this since the console launch.

What is the point? That on the one hand, any knowledgeable player understands that CP is not the end all be all indicator of player ability and thus, on paper, hiding or masking CP values should have little bearing and would minimize player vitriol and discrimination. But on the other hand, CP being a hard rooted power gap between haves and have nots, in combination with a far more limited range in actual group content difficulty, it becomes a catch 22. A cp30 dps is not going to be able to provide the dps needed for the last boss on selenes web vet hm. At least not without great strain on the healer and at the expense of every one else's time. Yet that same CP30 player is allowed, encouraged even, to partake in it said encounters, thanks to undaunted pledges and a juicy random daily bonus.

If ZOS did what many here are suggesting, creating an increased cp requirement for vet 4 man dungeons, then where do you draw the line? cp200 minimum? 561 if you want to do the dlc 4 mans in vet? what about those that are fully capable at 300 and perform miles beyond lesser players that happen to be 561? There is a bigger issue that ZOS has created and you cant put a band aid over it and think players will simply nod their head and ingore it. CP levels and the varying range of difficulty do not fit together. I would truly feel sorry for a new player coming into this game and being very resourceful and skilled, having to sleep his way through normal dungeons from cp1-300 because ZOS does not want players to have their feelings hurt due to a game environment that they didnt foresee happening.

Jeremy · December 2016

exeeter702 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

CP shouldn't matter for something like Selene's Web, but I don't agree with anonymous CP. The general population is already being punished enough with the 15 minute timer and being unable to manage groups. A few bad Apples don't warrant punishing the entire community.

Well then they need to put a 160 cap or something on Veteran Dungeons - because there is just no excuse for the kind of crap low CP players have to go through on this game when they sign up to do vet dungeons.

And it's not just a few bad apples. It's a widespread practice that happens almost every time I see a low CP player inside a dungeon. And I run a lot of dungeons.

Doesn't matter to me. I have never vote kicked anyone from a group that wasn't afk. I shouldn't have to deal with 15 minute timer or the removal of cp visibility. I'd be fine with them only allowing inactive players to be vote kicked or some other approach that doesn't inconvenience everyone.

How about this then - we make it optional? You can choose whether or not to have your CP visible to other players. That way you aren't forced into anything - but other players who don't want to be pre-judged due to their CP levels can avoid being done so.

you can possibly be that naive man.....

I would prefer just to make it invisible all-together. I was just trying to compromise with that poster.

i undestand.. but to even think for a second that a compromise like that would function in an online mmo environment is absurd.

Also.. the issue is not in simply masking CP, that solves very little and only fosters an environment where underperforming players (low cp or otherwise) have one more thing they can hide behind to avoid accountability. Listen.. if you have 4 players in a group, all are strangers and for the exception 1 player who is cp30, they are all cp cap. They are matched with the group finder for a specific dungeon in an effort to get their keys. Upon reaching the last boss, they activate hardmode and proceed to fail due to a lack of dps. Outside of incredible scrutiny, the max cp players would have no idea where the issue lies.

I would not automatically kick someone just because they were masking their CP. I would mask my own CP as well if it was an option - and I am well over 160 CP. So no - I don't believe it's absurd - though as I admitted in the subsequent post there probably would be many players who would instant kick people who did hide it just because they are ______.

Which is why I would just prefer to make it anonymous period.

CP is not an adequate way to judge other players anyway. Many people believe it is - which is false - which is why it needs to be taken out of the equation so people can actually get a fair shake in dungeons.

Also : this is not about keeping people from getting their feelings hurt. This is about combating the stupidity of bigotry where people assume other players suck based on nothing but their CP number. I have been in many groups where the Achilles Heel of the group was someone with max CP. So being able to see or not see CP isn't going to make a difference in that regard.

disintegr8 · December 2016

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Clearly you had an ass in your group, but I feel a few details are missing?

Were you running Vet or Norm? How low is low CP? Because, you have to remember that the content is scaled to CP160, as it always has been.

A CP120 may not have an issue, if they're good at their character. A CP20 is going to have a hard time, especially with a Vet version of Selene's Web.

To vote continuously is unnecessary, unless there was a problem. If there was a problem, or it was anticipated to be a problem, it was know long before the end boss.

Sounds like there needed to be a discussion within the group as to what someone felt the issue was and why - if it's reasonable, they should be able to back it up. It's not like it's a unknown when someone gets kicked, so be out with it.

But pouting in the corner during end fight, etc, is unacceptable. Unfortunately, it sounds like your best bet, in this case, was for both of you to find an alternate group.

CP's don't need to be invisible. CP's do not reflect ability or lack thereof (by themselves). Hidden CP's won't prevent an experienced group from knowing, realistically, whether or not it's going to happen, well before the end boss ever rolls around.

Doesn't take a number on your screen to know this.

Regardless of which version dungeon it was or how many CP the player had, is it right to punish them for the dungeon finder putting them in a dungeon they may not be ready for?

This gets back to ZOS fixing group finder so that you are not placed into a dungeon that you are not leveled for and are not likely to complete without a lot of assistance.

Until they change things, I would like CP's to be invisible, if only so that you actually have to see a person in action before you start a vote to kick. Kicking for inability should be for observed poor performance, not expected poor performance.

In the OP's case, as I have done before, I would have left the group after rejecting the second vote to kick if I did not know who was initiating it. Otherwise vote to kick the initiator of that vote.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · December 2016

CP needs to be totally rebalanced or gutted entirely. INB4 Mah progrezzunz.

It has done nothing but encourage power creep, elitism, and is the cause of SO MANY nerfs to amazing skills and gear sets in this game.

It is pretty much the root of all issues in this game. I realize that some people NEED, on a deep psychological level to feel like their character is getting more powerful by means of arbitrary inflated numbers on their stat sheet even though the monsters they fight are also getting increased HP and resistances so its all a meaningless tredmill but for the love of talos can we get a progression system that offers some imcomparable benefits instead of just raw damage and stat increases? Its killing the game and has already destroyed PvP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxszx60ZwGw

Hand_Bacon · December 2016

I'm starting to think the DESTRO ULTI is to blame for recent problems. I see a ton of moderate level CP players in dungeons, with decent pvp rank, using a lightning staff on everything, even if their other weapon is a bow or 2h. Somebody must have said, "just level your destro in vet dungeons brah and you'll own."

Kodrac · December 2016

High or max CPs doesn't mean diddly poo. In the couple of hours I played today, I came across 4 high or max sorcs hard casting crystal frags. How many levels do you need to figure out that's not the way it's done? So I agree, there's no need to show anyone's CPs. They just make you look bad, or worse,

Jeremy · December 2016

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

CP needs to be totally rebalanced or gutted entirely. INB4 Mah progrezzunz.

It has done nothing but encourage power creep, elitism, and is the cause of SO MANY nerfs to amazing skills and gear sets in this game.

It is pretty much the root of all issues in this game. I realize that some people NEED, on a deep psychological level to feel like their character is getting more powerful by means of arbitrary inflated numbers on their stat sheet even though the monsters they fight are also getting increased HP and resistances so its all a meaningless tredmill but for the love of talos can we get a progression system that offers some imcomparable benefits instead of just raw damage and stat increases? Its killing the game and has already destroyed PvP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxszx60ZwGw

I understand what you are saying - but this is a vital element of RPG games. It's all about character progression and becoming more powerful. When you lose that incentive - the game becomes stale and many players will go find something else to play.