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PvP'ers did not ask for Proc Set crit nerf - what do PvE'ers suggest?
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leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TotallyNotVos wrote: »Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Make Battle Spirit affect more skills, so PVE isn't punished for PVPs whining.
Make Battle Spirit remove all crits, getting rid of the must have impen and allow more diversity.
Make Battle Spirit have a global cooldown on procs.
Make Battle Spirit include that only one set can proc at once.
It's not whining, it's legitimate concerns. Just because you don't like PvP doesn't make the imbalance there any less of an issue.
Stop your whining about people bringing up real challenges this game PVP faces.
Fixed that for you.
These are not an issue in PVE, yet we get punished and this very lazy blanket "fix" won't fix the problem in PVP either.
I don't get why PvEers are upset. Proc sets are just as broken on both sides. The only difference is there's no npcs on the forums crying that their recap is all procs.
Tell me again just how broken and OP proc set is in this parse (posted by @TotallyNotVos )
Surely Liquid Lightning, Wall of Elements etc needs much more nerfing in your opinion?
I'd like to add. Ilambris only did 3.4K dps under ideal raid conditions if you look at my buff tracker. As well I had 75% and 73% crit rate on ilambris.
I just love hearing how op monster helms are
Ilambris did 8% of your dps sure, a 2x piece item set did 8%.
The reason why most sets like ilambris is OP it's not just it's single target dps it's the large extra aoe damage it does.
Anyway this change means you'll lose like 1-2k dps or like 3%, stop crying.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...2 -
Foxic✭✭✭✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »TotallyNotVos wrote: »Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Make Battle Spirit affect more skills, so PVE isn't punished for PVPs whining.
Make Battle Spirit remove all crits, getting rid of the must have impen and allow more diversity.
Make Battle Spirit have a global cooldown on procs.
Make Battle Spirit include that only one set can proc at once.
It's not whining, it's legitimate concerns. Just because you don't like PvP doesn't make the imbalance there any less of an issue.
Stop your whining about people bringing up real challenges this game PVP faces.
Fixed that for you.
These are not an issue in PVE, yet we get punished and this very lazy blanket "fix" won't fix the problem in PVP either.
I don't get why PvEers are upset. Proc sets are just as broken on both sides. The only difference is there's no npcs on the forums crying that their recap is all procs.
Tell me again just how broken and OP proc set is in this parse (posted by @TotallyNotVos )
Surely Liquid Lightning, Wall of Elements etc needs much more nerfing in your opinion?
I'd like to add. Ilambris only did 3.4K dps under ideal raid conditions if you look at my buff tracker. As well I had 75% and 73% crit rate on ilambris.
I just love hearing how op monster helms are
Ilambris did 8% of your dps sure, a 2x piece item set did 8%.
The reason why most sets like ilambris is OP it's not just it's single target dps it's the large extra aoe damage it does.
Anyway this change means you'll lose like 1-2k dps or like 3%, stop crying.
So in your opinion, because ilambris, grothdar, velidreth, viper, and widow maker are over performing. Every proc set in the game deserves to be nerfed?
Man I can't tell you how many times I've been killed by that ashen grip/nerieneth build. It's op /sMechanically Challenged, PCNA competitive raid guild
Head of The Council of Raiders
First NA vAS Hardmode(#2 world)
World First Immortal Redeemer & Saintly Savior
All #1 Trial scores Clockwork City patch4 -
GilGalad✭✭✭✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »TotallyNotVos wrote: »Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Make Battle Spirit affect more skills, so PVE isn't punished for PVPs whining.
Make Battle Spirit remove all crits, getting rid of the must have impen and allow more diversity.
Make Battle Spirit have a global cooldown on procs.
Make Battle Spirit include that only one set can proc at once.
It's not whining, it's legitimate concerns. Just because you don't like PvP doesn't make the imbalance there any less of an issue.
Stop your whining about people bringing up real challenges this game PVP faces.
Fixed that for you.
These are not an issue in PVE, yet we get punished and this very lazy blanket "fix" won't fix the problem in PVP either.
I don't get why PvEers are upset. Proc sets are just as broken on both sides. The only difference is there's no npcs on the forums crying that their recap is all procs.
Tell me again just how broken and OP proc set is in this parse (posted by @TotallyNotVos )
Surely Liquid Lightning, Wall of Elements etc needs much more nerfing in your opinion?
I'd like to add. Ilambris only did 3.4K dps under ideal raid conditions if you look at my buff tracker. As well I had 75% and 73% crit rate on ilambris.
I just love hearing how op monster helms are
Ilambris did 8% of your dps sure, a 2x piece item set did 8%.
The reason why most sets like ilambris is OP it's not just it's single target dps it's the large extra aoe damage it does.
Anyway this change means you'll lose like 1-2k dps or like 3%, stop crying.
Interesting how resistent PVP players are to arguments.
Hmm I also start to get the feeling that proc sets in PVP are just L2P issue...
4 -
DHale✭✭✭✭✭
✭Although I agree with your solution pvp players very much complained about and asked for proc set nerfs. Although as a primarily pvp player they don't really bother me. However, I don't like the bad nightblades who come out of stealth heavy attack viper validreth incap and think they are good players.Edited by DHale on December 29, 2016 3:22PMSorcerna, proud beta sorc. RIP April 2014 to May 31 2016 DArk Brotherhood. Out of retirement for negates and encases. Sorcerna will be going back into retirement to be my main crafter Fall 2018. Because an 8 k shield is f ing useless. Died because of baddies on the forum. Too much qq too little pew pew. 16 AD 2 DC. 0 EP cause they bad, CP 2300 plus 18 level 50 toons. NA, PC, Grey Host#SORCLIVESMATTER actually they don’t or they wouldn’t keep getting nerfed constantly.0 -
Bakkagami✭✭✭TotallyNotVos wrote: »Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Make Battle Spirit affect more skills, so PVE isn't punished for PVPs whining.
Make Battle Spirit remove all crits, getting rid of the must have impen and allow more diversity.
Make Battle Spirit have a global cooldown on procs.
Make Battle Spirit include that only one set can proc at once.
It's not whining, it's legitimate concerns. Just because you don't like PvP doesn't make the imbalance there any less of an issue.
Stop your whining about people bringing up real challenges this game PVP faces.
Fixed that for you.
These are not an issue in PVE, yet we get punished and this very lazy blanket "fix" won't fix the problem in PVP either.
I don't get why PvEers are upset. Proc sets are just as broken on both sides. The only difference is there's no npcs on the forums crying that their recap is all procs.
Tell me again just how broken and OP proc set is in this parse (posted by @TotallyNotVos )
Surely Liquid Lightning, Wall of Elements etc needs much more nerfing in your opinion?
I'd like to add. Ilambris only did 3.4K dps under ideal raid conditions if you look at my buff tracker. As well I had 75% and 73% crit rate on ilambris.
I just love hearing how op monster helms are
Tell me.... when have u ever heard anyone say illambris was op? Neirineth, mephala are 2 more that I wouldn't say are op. I would also point out there will be significantly less impact on those than the critical nerf would have on viper, Skoria, veli, selenes, and other sets hitting for north of 20k a tick.
Not to mention illambris is an aoe (albeit small), while your video is showing a single target parse, meaning you are not showing the full potential of the set. That would be the equivalent to my saying mephalas is weak because I tested it on a single mob. If it's an aoe it's going to parse for less.
0 -
DschiPeunt✭✭✭✭
You couldn't misunderstand more what we are trying to tell you, even if you tried. I don't give a flying fish about a DPS loss. If ZOS decides tomorrow to cut all PvE DPS by 50%? Ok for me.leepalmer95 wrote: »TotallyNotVos wrote: »Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Make Battle Spirit affect more skills, so PVE isn't punished for PVPs whining.
Make Battle Spirit remove all crits, getting rid of the must have impen and allow more diversity.
Make Battle Spirit have a global cooldown on procs.
Make Battle Spirit include that only one set can proc at once.
It's not whining, it's legitimate concerns. Just because you don't like PvP doesn't make the imbalance there any less of an issue.
Stop your whining about people bringing up real challenges this game PVP faces.
Fixed that for you.
These are not an issue in PVE, yet we get punished and this very lazy blanket "fix" won't fix the problem in PVP either.
I don't get why PvEers are upset. Proc sets are just as broken on both sides. The only difference is there's no npcs on the forums crying that their recap is all procs.
Tell me again just how broken and OP proc set is in this parse (posted by @TotallyNotVos )
Surely Liquid Lightning, Wall of Elements etc needs much more nerfing in your opinion?
I'd like to add. Ilambris only did 3.4K dps under ideal raid conditions if you look at my buff tracker. As well I had 75% and 73% crit rate on ilambris.
I just love hearing how op monster helms are
Ilambris did 8% of your dps sure, a 2x piece item set did 8%.
The reason why most sets like ilambris is OP it's not just it's single target dps it's the large extra aoe damage it does.
Anyway this change means you'll lose like 1-2k dps or like 3%, stop crying.
We were actually one of the few guilds to clear vMoL Hardmode before One Tamriel. Before sets like Grothdarr, Illambris and Kragh even existed.
Because of our great support I hadn't even problems sustaining Molag Kena before 1T was released. Groups with less optimized support and less DPS are the ones that will suffer more than I do.This "fix" is just lazy and may mean a comeback of the Molag Kena meta for magicka DPS.
If they change every proc set individually to be more "balanced". Sure, go ahead. Remove a lot of the instant damage procs, add more DoT procs and adjust the damage numbers accordingly. This "fix" won't solve any problems and makes a lot of sets in PvE useless.
So, welcome back the Kena Meta and say goodbye to your Kragh/Illambris/Grothdarr shoulders, that you spend tons of keys to get.Edited by DschiPeunt on December 29, 2016 3:39PMServer: EU AD || Guilds: EquinoX
Telleno || Dro-M'Athra Destroyer || Magicka DK || My YouTube-Channel || Profile on ESO-Database
World 1st vMoL Hardmode
World 1st vHRC Hardmode (SotH)
World 1st vAA Hardmode (SotH)
World 1st vSO Hardmode (Dark Brotherhood)5 -
visionality✭✭✭✭✭I am still opting for a global cooldown on procsets in PVP, as I did right from the very start. I don't need any change to procsets in PVE.
PVPers complain about procsets stacking and firing in almost the same moment, perverting PVP into "who procs first, kills first". Zenimax' solution is not changing anything about that, as far as I can see.0 -
Foxic✭✭✭✭✭TotallyNotVos wrote: »Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Make Battle Spirit affect more skills, so PVE isn't punished for PVPs whining.
Make Battle Spirit remove all crits, getting rid of the must have impen and allow more diversity.
Make Battle Spirit have a global cooldown on procs.
Make Battle Spirit include that only one set can proc at once.
It's not whining, it's legitimate concerns. Just because you don't like PvP doesn't make the imbalance there any less of an issue.
Stop your whining about people bringing up real challenges this game PVP faces.
Fixed that for you.
These are not an issue in PVE, yet we get punished and this very lazy blanket "fix" won't fix the problem in PVP either.
I don't get why PvEers are upset. Proc sets are just as broken on both sides. The only difference is there's no npcs on the forums crying that their recap is all procs.
Tell me again just how broken and OP proc set is in this parse (posted by @TotallyNotVos )
Surely Liquid Lightning, Wall of Elements etc needs much more nerfing in your opinion?
I'd like to add. Ilambris only did 3.4K dps under ideal raid conditions if you look at my buff tracker. As well I had 75% and 73% crit rate on ilambris.
I just love hearing how op monster helms are
Tell me.... when have u ever heard anyone say illambris was op? Neirineth, mephala are 2 more that I wouldn't say are op. I would also point out there will be significantly less impact on those than the critical nerf would have on viper, Skoria, veli, selenes, and other sets hitting for north of 20k a tick.
Not to mention illambris is an aoe (albeit small), while your video is showing a single target parse, meaning you are not showing the full potential of the set. That would be the equivalent to my saying mephalas is weak because I tested it on a single mob. If it's an aoe it's going to parse for less.
Half of the forums are claiming ilambris is too strong, and I sort of agree. I'm currently in two threads about the same thing so I may be getting them crossed.
http://imgur.com/YTMLDsO here is an ilambris parse with aoe. I know full well how ilambris performs in all situations. It almost always does the same dps percentage whether it be aoe or single target.Mechanically Challenged, PCNA competitive raid guild
Head of The Council of Raiders
First NA vAS Hardmode(#2 world)
World First Immortal Redeemer & Saintly Savior
All #1 Trial scores Clockwork City patch0 -
visionality✭✭✭✭✭Tell me again just how broken and OP proc set is in this parse (posted by @TotallyNotVos )
Surely Liquid Lightning, Wall of Elements etc needs much more nerfing in your opinion?
Just for the records (I'm not calling for a nerf): spell power cure is up for 77% of the fight, burning spellweave is up for 56% of the fight. Both are procsets. ^^0 -
Foxic✭✭✭✭✭visionality wrote: »Tell me again just how broken and OP proc set is in this parse (posted by @TotallyNotVos )
Surely Liquid Lightning, Wall of Elements etc needs much more nerfing in your opinion?
Just for the records (I'm not calling for a nerf): spell power cure is up for 77% of the fight, burning spellweave is up for 56% of the fight. Both are procsets. ^^
But those aren't the type of proc set getting nerfedMechanically Challenged, PCNA competitive raid guild
Head of The Council of Raiders
First NA vAS Hardmode(#2 world)
World First Immortal Redeemer & Saintly Savior
All #1 Trial scores Clockwork City patch1 -
Bakkagami✭✭✭TotallyNotVos wrote: »TotallyNotVos wrote: »Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Make Battle Spirit affect more skills, so PVE isn't punished for PVPs whining.
Make Battle Spirit remove all crits, getting rid of the must have impen and allow more diversity.
Make Battle Spirit have a global cooldown on procs.
Make Battle Spirit include that only one set can proc at once.
It's not whining, it's legitimate concerns. Just because you don't like PvP doesn't make the imbalance there any less of an issue.
Stop your whining about people bringing up real challenges this game PVP faces.
Fixed that for you.
These are not an issue in PVE, yet we get punished and this very lazy blanket "fix" won't fix the problem in PVP either.
I don't get why PvEers are upset. Proc sets are just as broken on both sides. The only difference is there's no npcs on the forums crying that their recap is all procs.
Tell me again just how broken and OP proc set is in this parse (posted by @TotallyNotVos )
Surely Liquid Lightning, Wall of Elements etc needs much more nerfing in your opinion?
I'd like to add. Ilambris only did 3.4K dps under ideal raid conditions if you look at my buff tracker. As well I had 75% and 73% crit rate on ilambris.
I just love hearing how op monster helms are
Tell me.... when have u ever heard anyone say illambris was op? Neirineth, mephala are 2 more that I wouldn't say are op. I would also point out there will be significantly less impact on those than the critical nerf would have on viper, Skoria, veli, selenes, and other sets hitting for north of 20k a tick.
Not to mention illambris is an aoe (albeit small), while your video is showing a single target parse, meaning you are not showing the full potential of the set. That would be the equivalent to my saying mephalas is weak because I tested it on a single mob. If it's an aoe it's going to parse for less.
Half of the forums are claiming ilambris is too strong, and I sort of agree. I'm currently in two threads about the same thing so I may be getting them crossed.
http://imgur.com/YTMLDsO here is an ilambris parse with aoe. I know full well how ilambris performs in all situations. It almost always does the same dps percentage whether it be aoe or single target.
This is the first I'm hearing of it being op -Strong- of course. My point is to say it's true that illambris, mephalas, etc., will get nerfed, but, because zos chose this way to nerf them, burst sets will get hit harder and will actually come closer in line with the existing dot/aoe sets for both PVE and pvp. No more one shot on mobs because procs went off for 70k+ burst.
Then again, at this point, I'm for anything that will make dungeons tougher or at least require people to learn mechanics. Even if that comes at the cost of making the small bit of already tough content even harder.
Edit: corrections to autocorrect -_-Edited by Bakkagami on December 29, 2016 4:02PM2 -
Foxic✭✭✭✭✭TotallyNotVos wrote: »TotallyNotVos wrote: »Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Make Battle Spirit affect more skills, so PVE isn't punished for PVPs whining.
Make Battle Spirit remove all crits, getting rid of the must have impen and allow more diversity.
Make Battle Spirit have a global cooldown on procs.
Make Battle Spirit include that only one set can proc at once.
It's not whining, it's legitimate concerns. Just because you don't like PvP doesn't make the imbalance there any less of an issue.
Stop your whining about people bringing up real challenges this game PVP faces.
Fixed that for you.
These are not an issue in PVE, yet we get punished and this very lazy blanket "fix" won't fix the problem in PVP either.
I don't get why PvEers are upset. Proc sets are just as broken on both sides. The only difference is there's no npcs on the forums crying that their recap is all procs.
Tell me again just how broken and OP proc set is in this parse (posted by @TotallyNotVos )
Surely Liquid Lightning, Wall of Elements etc needs much more nerfing in your opinion?
I'd like to add. Ilambris only did 3.4K dps under ideal raid conditions if you look at my buff tracker. As well I had 75% and 73% crit rate on ilambris.
I just love hearing how op monster helms are
Tell me.... when have u ever heard anyone say illambris was op? Neirineth, mephala are 2 more that I wouldn't say are op. I would also point out there will be significantly less impact on those than the critical nerf would have on viper, Skoria, veli, selenes, and other sets hitting for north of 20k a tick.
Not to mention illambris is an aoe (albeit small), while your video is showing a single target parse, meaning you are not showing the full potential of the set. That would be the equivalent to my saying mephalas is weak because I tested it on a single mob. If it's an aoe it's going to parse for less.
Half of the forums are claiming ilambris is too strong, and I sort of agree. I'm currently in two threads about the same thing so I may be getting them crossed.
http://imgur.com/YTMLDsO here is an ilambris parse with aoe. I know full well how ilambris performs in all situations. It almost always does the same dps percentage whether it be aoe or single target.
This is the first I'm hearing of it being open -Strong- of course. My point there is to say, yes, illambris, mephalas, etc will get nerf ed, but because zos chose this way to nerf them, burst sets will get hit harder and will actually come closer in line with the existing dot/aoe sets for both PVE and pvp. No more one shot on mobs because procs went off for 70k+ burst.
Then again, at this point, I'm for anything that will make dungeons tougher or at least require people to learn mechanics. Even if that comes at the cost of making the small bit of already tough content even harder.
I just want it to be clear, I'm not against Nerf's. I am highly against nerfing every proc set in the game because a few are really strong.Mechanically Challenged, PCNA competitive raid guild
Head of The Council of Raiders
First NA vAS Hardmode(#2 world)
World First Immortal Redeemer & Saintly Savior
All #1 Trial scores Clockwork City patch0 -
Astanphaeus✭✭✭✭✭TotallyNotVos wrote: »Man I can't tell you how many times I've been killed by that ashen grip/nerieneth build. It's op /s
Oh boo. Now no one is going to use some of the sets that they already don't use. The horror! The horror.[/allthesarcasm]0 -
Bakkagami✭✭✭TotallyNotVos wrote: »TotallyNotVos wrote: »TotallyNotVos wrote: »Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Make Battle Spirit affect more skills, so PVE isn't punished for PVPs whining.
Make Battle Spirit remove all crits, getting rid of the must have impen and allow more diversity.
Make Battle Spirit have a global cooldown on procs.
Make Battle Spirit include that only one set can proc at once.
It's not whining, it's legitimate concerns. Just because you don't like PvP doesn't make the imbalance there any less of an issue.
Stop your whining about people bringing up real challenges this game PVP faces.
Fixed that for you.
These are not an issue in PVE, yet we get punished and this very lazy blanket "fix" won't fix the problem in PVP either.
I don't get why PvEers are upset. Proc sets are just as broken on both sides. The only difference is there's no npcs on the forums crying that their recap is all procs.
Tell me again just how broken and OP proc set is in this parse (posted by @TotallyNotVos )
Surely Liquid Lightning, Wall of Elements etc needs much more nerfing in your opinion?
I'd like to add. Ilambris only did 3.4K dps under ideal raid conditions if you look at my buff tracker. As well I had 75% and 73% crit rate on ilambris.
I just love hearing how op monster helms are
Tell me.... when have u ever heard anyone say illambris was op? Neirineth, mephala are 2 more that I wouldn't say are op. I would also point out there will be significantly less impact on those than the critical nerf would have on viper, Skoria, veli, selenes, and other sets hitting for north of 20k a tick.
Not to mention illambris is an aoe (albeit small), while your video is showing a single target parse, meaning you are not showing the full potential of the set. That would be the equivalent to my saying mephalas is weak because I tested it on a single mob. If it's an aoe it's going to parse for less.
Half of the forums are claiming ilambris is too strong, and I sort of agree. I'm currently in two threads about the same thing so I may be getting them crossed.
http://imgur.com/YTMLDsO here is an ilambris parse with aoe. I know full well how ilambris performs in all situations. It almost always does the same dps percentage whether it be aoe or single target.
This is the first I'm hearing of it being open -Strong- of course. My point there is to say, yes, illambris, mephalas, etc will get nerf ed, but because zos chose this way to nerf them, burst sets will get hit harder and will actually come closer in line with the existing dot/aoe sets for both PVE and pvp. No more one shot on mobs because procs went off for 70k+ burst.
Then again, at this point, I'm for anything that will make dungeons tougher or at least require people to learn mechanics. Even if that comes at the cost of making the small bit of already tough content even harder.
I just want it to be clear, I'm not against Nerf's. I am highly against nerfing every proc set in the game because a few are really strong.
I can understand that and honestly I was afraid zos was going to do something more drastic than this if they went for an overarching approach. But this particular nerf isn't nearly as bad as the forums have been crying it is, and will probably help in the long run in making it easier for zos to consider the impact individual changes for sets would have.0 -
DschiPeunt✭✭✭✭
Ok, let's apply that to the manticora parse that I talked about. If we take 42% coming from gear, it means that I would have to do 58% of the damage with all sets, if I wear non-set armor. So, in this case, 47395*0.58 = 27489.1 DPS, WITHOUT ANY(!) set bonus. To me, that seems reasonable.sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »DschiPeunt wrote: »
You crazy PVPer!sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »DschiPeunt wrote: »SJD_Phoenix wrote: »"This (proposed) change is very very far from what PvP'ers wanted, we don't want to hurt PvE with PvP balances..."
Who said that procc sets are balanced in PvE?
The issue are the sets over performing not under performing.
In pve why would you complain about an over performing set? Do you pride yourself over terrible dps?
I just looked up a single target fight (manticora) of mine, where I used Grothdarr. The set did 3407 DPS, which was 7.19% of the total DPS. How would anyone consider this as "over performing"?
Call me crazy PVPer, but how is 2piece of AOE proc armor doing 3.4k DPS to single target boss not over performing. I get it, there some underlying issues and this "fix" just makes everything worse not just the good sets, but I dont get why 2pieces of armor taking care 7% of your DPS (possible even more for other people) isnt over performing in your book.
Maybe because all popular monster proc sets are actually over performing?
From a PvE perspective, I don't care if Grothdarr is an AOE set. It is just as good as its single target potential. I know, that some think, that the overall DPS matters and I know that its fun to show some really high numbers on some fights, but at the end of the day the single target DPS matters. That's why I only focus on that part.
In the particular fight I was refering to, the total single target DPS was 47395. I do not think, that 3.4k from Grothdarr is in any way "over performing".
To see this from a different perspective: I have 12 gear slots (considering both weapon bars with staves). Grothdarr are 2 pieces. So 2/12 = 16.67% of my gear does 7.19% of my DPS. I think that this is quite reasonable. As I already said: This change will probably mean a comeback of the Molag Kena meta, which I personally don't want.
Still crazy PVPer here; I still dont see how 16% of your gear doing 7% of your DPS alone is reasonable, say each piece of gear is doing 3.5% of DPS. Thats 42% just from gear. I remember when abilities were doing actual DPS and gear was only buffing their potential.
About Molag Kena issues. As a crazy PVPer and only casual PVEr, it sounds to me players like just spamming abilities without thinking about resource pools (definitely the case in PVP)Server: EU AD || Guilds: EquinoX
Telleno || Dro-M'Athra Destroyer || Magicka DK || My YouTube-Channel || Profile on ESO-Database
World 1st vMoL Hardmode
World 1st vHRC Hardmode (SotH)
World 1st vAA Hardmode (SotH)
World 1st vSO Hardmode (Dark Brotherhood)0 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭"This (proposed) change is very very far from what PvP'ers wanted, we don't want to hurt PvE with PvP balances..."
Who said that procc sets are balanced in PvE?
That´s not the problem here. Sure some may have been overperforming, but the whole idea was that the "proc-set" fix was to solve the problems for pvp where they´ve done the most "damage" (lol). The new change doesn´t resolve that issue. The new change affects pve a lot more than it does with pvp.
I would rather have seen inividual fixes on the sets that people complained about instead of an overall "punishment" for all procsets. But if they decide to implement I hope that they increase the tooltip damage/heal to compensate for the inability to crit2 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DschiPeunt wrote: »
Ok, let's apply that to the manticora parse that I talked about. If we take 42% coming from gear, it means that I would have to do 58% of the damage with all sets, if I wear non-set armor. So, in this case, 47395*0.58 = 27489.1 DPS, WITHOUT ANY(!) set bonus. To me, that seems reasonable.sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »DschiPeunt wrote: »
You crazy PVPer!sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »DschiPeunt wrote: »SJD_Phoenix wrote: »"This (proposed) change is very very far from what PvP'ers wanted, we don't want to hurt PvE with PvP balances..."
Who said that procc sets are balanced in PvE?
The issue are the sets over performing not under performing.
In pve why would you complain about an over performing set? Do you pride yourself over terrible dps?
I just looked up a single target fight (manticora) of mine, where I used Grothdarr. The set did 3407 DPS, which was 7.19% of the total DPS. How would anyone consider this as "over performing"?
Call me crazy PVPer, but how is 2piece of AOE proc armor doing 3.4k DPS to single target boss not over performing. I get it, there some underlying issues and this "fix" just makes everything worse not just the good sets, but I dont get why 2pieces of armor taking care 7% of your DPS (possible even more for other people) isnt over performing in your book.
Maybe because all popular monster proc sets are actually over performing?
From a PvE perspective, I don't care if Grothdarr is an AOE set. It is just as good as its single target potential. I know, that some think, that the overall DPS matters and I know that its fun to show some really high numbers on some fights, but at the end of the day the single target DPS matters. That's why I only focus on that part.
In the particular fight I was refering to, the total single target DPS was 47395. I do not think, that 3.4k from Grothdarr is in any way "over performing".
To see this from a different perspective: I have 12 gear slots (considering both weapon bars with staves). Grothdarr are 2 pieces. So 2/12 = 16.67% of my gear does 7.19% of my DPS. I think that this is quite reasonable. As I already said: This change will probably mean a comeback of the Molag Kena meta, which I personally don't want.
Still crazy PVPer here; I still dont see how 16% of your gear doing 7% of your DPS alone is reasonable, say each piece of gear is doing 3.5% of DPS. Thats 42% just from gear. I remember when abilities were doing actual DPS and gear was only buffing their potential.
About Molag Kena issues. As a crazy PVPer and only casual PVEr, it sounds to me players like just spamming abilities without thinking about resource pools (definitely the case in PVP)
It would be reasonable if you could take your notproc 27k DPS to endgame and people wouldnt laught at it. I dont how much this is ZoS fault and how much minmaxers fault that we have here endgame content that has requirements for DPS and sets that directly add half to that DPS. This just my opinion obviously, but I wouldnt mind if using abilities was most of the dmg, not procsing sets.
I bet PVE was pretty playable before 1T, so it just doesn't go in my head how are sets that are so must have after 1T not overperforming if people feel game is unplayable when only part of their damage got nerfed. Or how "nobody wants kena" is valid reason, if its obvious kena meta is not a thing because all the changes and sets that happend are much better. Sets that have 0 drawback, deal damage on itself and are pretty big part of DPS.
Then again, there many more problems with monster sets that are unanswered. Like why is mephala half Grothdar damage if you have to even focus on activating it or why there are no easy to use stamina based ranged. If you think 40% of your DPS from gear is reasonable, you will notice how ranged stamina is unplayable with bad skills and no proper gear
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RoyJade✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think the core problem isn't the proc set but the "burst" meta. Proc sets need balancing in pve, but no nerf, at least not that much. The best ones does pretty much the same damage as classic skills, and that's seem fine to me. The problem is that our damage are more or less equal to our life pool, so burst damage are far better than anything else. And of course, these procs artificially add some free hits who further boost our burst.
The best solution in my opinion should be to remove this burst meta, damage and healing altogether. Two problem, though : the high difficulty to do it properly (balance is hard, we all know that) and the high amount of work ZOS will need for that.
The fight I'ld love to see are fight where we need 5-6 seconds to kill a dps, 8-10 a heal, and more for a pure tank who can't do any damage, and where a proper cycle and dots are useful. No more instant-heal, no more instant-kill. I have some ideas to do that, but none are complete solutions for now.2 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes they did.
And the nerf is exactly what we need.
Too bad it also has a negative effect on PvE DPS, but in the end I don't think it is that big of a deal.
Like almosy everyone advocating this, you have no idea what your talking about.
The problem, is the sheer volume of procs. Three at once doing upwards of 10 K damage.
The solution is to impliment a globle cooldown. One per ten seconds. That's it. That's all they need to do. And can this broad-stroke nerf for what it is, trash game design.
Are some sets overpeforming? Yes. I'll concede that. But, y'know. Then there's Bogdan the nightflame geitng thrown under the bus too.Edited by Doctordarkspawn on December 29, 2016 4:50PM0 -
HeroOfNone✭✭✭✭✭
✭Already stated a lot of suggestions over here:
ACD: Fixing Proc Sets, ZOS's Roadmap to Success or Ruin
And identified a lot of PVP issues here:
ACD: Top 10 PVP issues of 2016
The second is more significant than the furst, since it identifies the issue most folks have in pvp: players want time to react to being attacked.
Conflict here is a PVE player wants to do a lot of damage to a boss or NPC that's about 10x that of another player. So you give them a proc set to do damage in PVE and it totally dominates PVP. They take out the crit, which gets rid of dome of the overkill but not really, and then the PVE players suffer but the PVP player still has to deal with this (without impenetrable reducing it either).
The solutions that would have had less of a meta impact would have been spreading the damage out over time (covering to DOTs, allowing only one to go off at a time, etc.), restrictions (only one set can go off), or simple nerfs (biff mitigation or reduce damage).
Solutions that would NOT work (but people keep bringing it up) is anything to do with an RNG factor. So for PVP you reduce viper's sting to have a 10% proc chance, but you'll be upset everytime that NightBlade ganked you and all 3 proc sets still go off. But for the PVE side, you'll just throw the set away, no reason to use a set that only hits that infrequent with such low damage. I listed it out since it so many kept listing it, but it really is a poor solution to the root issue.
Hope this helps the conversation to keep going.Edited by HeroOfNone on December 29, 2016 4:50PM0 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think the core problem isn't the proc set but the "burst" meta. Proc sets need balancing in pve, but no nerf, at least not that much. The best ones does pretty much the same damage as classic skills, and that's seem fine to me. The problem is that our damage are more or less equal to our life pool, so burst damage are far better than anything else. And of course, these procs artificially add some free hits who further boost our burst.
The best solution in my opinion should be to remove this burst meta, damage and healing altogether. Two problem, though : the high difficulty to do it properly (balance is hard, we all know that) and the high amount of work ZOS will need for that.
The fight I'ld love to see are fight where we need 5-6 seconds to kill a dps, 8-10 a heal, and more for a pure tank who can't do any damage, and where a proper cycle and dots are useful. No more instant-heal, no more instant-kill. I have some ideas to do that, but none are complete solutions for now.
Not just damage or heal, problem is nothing ever has any consequences. You just wasted your ulti into block? No problem, you will have it back in no time. You just held block for 5sec and only blocked enemy light attacks? No problem, hold it few minutes more. You just got ganked, but survived with 10% hp? No problem, instantly have it full again. Someone just wasted half theirs resources to combo you, but you broke free from cc and dodged everything (costing you half the resoures as well)? No problem, you both are full again. You bursted enemy shield, leaving their real HP vulnerable to dmg? They recasted it. You stunned the enemy so you can finally deal your damage? No problem, either their instantly broke free or you managed only to pop their shield before they come back. You casted DoT on them? No problem, they either didn't even notice or purged it instantly.
There is no middle ground for anything, if its not some prolonged duel of players with similiar build, nothing that isnt lethal burst attack really matters.1 -
Brutusmax1mus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Make Battle Spirit affect more skills, so PVE isn't punished for PVPs whining.
Make Battle Spirit remove all crits, getting rid of the must have impen and allow more diversity.
Make Battle Spirit have a global cooldown on procs.
Make Battle Spirit include that only one set can proc at once.
It's not whining, it's legitimate concerns. Just because you don't like PvP doesn't make the imbalance there any less of an issue.
Stop your whining about people bringing up real challenges this game PVP faces.
Fixed that for you.
These are not an issue in PVE, yet we get punished and this very lazy blanket "fix" won't fix the problem in PVP either.
I don't get why PvEers are upset. Proc sets are just as broken on both sides. The only difference is there's no npcs on the forums crying that their recap is all procs.
has been explained multiple times even in this thread. But I can summarize it for you again:
Ist not about the nerf itself, but about the removal of a core game mechanic that is important in PVE and many builds are based on.
The "solution" does not fix the problem in PVP. Even cutting the tooltips by half would be more effective.
If monster sets deal less then 5% dmg Molag Kena will be BIS again for magicka DPS and no one wants that meta back. Basically all the diversity they added with one tamriel would be gone again.
There might be some sets that overperform a bit on the PVE side like Grothdarr, Ilambris and Kra'gh, but they could be balanced individually.
The main problem for PVP is that you can stack multiple procs.
And my point is that pvp is a part of this game. I didn't read 1 post on the want to nerf all proc sets crit ability. Not 1. Obviously zos thinks there's and issue with all crit sets (imo they just can't figure out how to fix the real problem). It's obvious you understand the issue with the game and proc sets in pvp. I'm just saying it's not whining, it's a legitimate problem with the game.
Blame the correct people, the developers making these decisions. Not the players who are playing in a broken game and stating it.
Pvp and PvE should be balanced apart from one another, BUT IT'S CLEAR AT THIS POINT THAT ZOS CAN'T DO THAT. CAN'T, NOT WON'T, BUT CAN'T. they are at fault.1 -
AuldWolf✭✭✭✭✭How manipulative! And very typical. This is exactly what I'm talking about with drawing in dark tetrad people. So, the hundreds of threads I've seen with PvPers whinging and moaning about proc sets in general don't exist? Funny, that. Real funny. And now that you're feeling the burn by realising that the spotlight's on you, you're trying to redirect that spotlight to someone else. Typical projection.
I really, really don't like this kind of person. The kind who'd score highly on the dark tetrad. The kind that shows sociopathic tendencies. Yes, PvPers absolutely asked for this, regularly. People aren't stupid, you do realise? Nor are they (one would hope) mindless, bleating sheep who'd ignore what their own eyes saw in favour of what some person said simply because that person said it confidently. Well, I hope for such, but confidence plots work all too often... So I can't say for sure, but I'd like to think that people aren't that dumb.
Yes, proc sets are being destroyed because highly competitive people wanted that. And it's upon their head the blame rests. It'll be upon their head the blame rests when the game hurts for this, too.
Population numbers right now are around 11k per day thanks to One Tamriel. I wonder what they'll be after this balance change screws up everyone's builds just to make PvPers happy? That'll be fun to watch. I have my suspicions, and I think that others might, too. ZOS have really made their bed and now they have to lie in it. Just as Champions Online did, just as Wildstar did, just as Battleborn did. Different companies, same mistakes. They listen to the wrong people.0 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭How manipulative! And very typical. This is exactly what I'm talking about with drawing in dark tetrad people. So, the hundreds of threads I've seen with PvPers whinging and moaning about proc sets in general don't exist? Funny, that. Real funny. And now that you're feeling the burn by realising that the spotlight's on you, you're trying to redirect that spotlight to someone else. Typical projection.
I really, really don't like this kind of person. The kind who'd score highly on the dark tetrad. The kind that shows sociopathic tendencies. Yes, PvPers absolutely asked for this, regularly. People aren't stupid, you do realise? Nor are they (one would hope) mindless, bleating sheep who'd ignore what their own eyes saw in favour of what some person said simply because that person said it confidently. Well, I hope for such, but confidence plots work all too often... So I can't say for sure, but I'd like to think that people aren't that dumb.
Yes, proc sets are being destroyed because highly competitive people wanted that. And it's upon their head the blame rests. It'll be upon their head the blame rests when the game hurts for this, too.
Population numbers right now are around 11k per day thanks to One Tamriel. I wonder what they'll be after this balance change screws up everyone's builds just to make PvPers happy? That'll be fun to watch. I have my suspicions, and I think that others might, too. ZOS have really made their bed and now they have to lie in it. Just as Champions Online did, just as Wildstar did, just as Battleborn did. Different companies, same mistakes. They listen to the wrong people.
Oh, population wont change one bit. Maybe even increase, since many people stopped playing because of PVP state (if it actually gets slightly better now). Dont play to the stereotype PVE drama queen. People have to change build every major patch, but they do it happily because it is usually for something better. Now they are angry because there is nothing better, only what they have is worse. Bite your tongue, wait for smart people to tell you what you should wear and grind it like a proper worker bee. You know very well you would do it too, if instead of proc set nerf ZoS made new, better, proc sets.Edited by SodanTok on December 29, 2016 6:03PM1 -
BlackMadara✭✭✭✭Remember that the post stated that they have a few fixes toward proc sets and only told us one. People tend to forge that.
This particular "nerf" is, quite obviously, directed towards mainstream pve, and is a balance change. Dungeons are seen as too easy and monster sets doing too much dps. Dialing back the damage that these helms do will raise the relative difficulty of dungeons. This is only a step in the right direction. Remember that @ZOS_RichLambert showed a pve dps parse fr their internal testing.
As for balance, proc sets scale on no other player stat other than crit. Removing their ablitly to crit only brings them in line with how they interacted with the rest of player's stats.
This change doesn't do much for pvp balance and hurts trials the most. People don't want to see the kena meta back, but that will be he case for optimized groups only. This change makes you make a choice depending on the other resources you have. Is a monster helm or 5 piece bonus going to be best for your build? Do you have enough group support to use kena effectively?0 -
Poss✭✭✭✭✭
✭Who goes for crit in PvP anyway with everyone now running inpen heavy armour?? Such a silly way to "fix" proc sets1 -
Paneross✭✭✭✭✭PvPers and PvErs asked for this. Get over it or just leave the game please.Edited by Paneross on December 29, 2016 6:22PM0
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Yolokin_Swagonborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MrAppleman wrote: »It's pretty obvious that this change is directed to nerf PVE. The amount of damage Kragh and Grothdar do is stupid. Everyone has been saying how stupid strong they are.
Everyone who pvps says this change wouldn't solve the cancer that is wearing 2-3 proc sets. This wasn't intended to fix that.
I'm sure they have other changes to bring, but stop blaming PVP. There's no community to blame. ZOS decided to change how strong something that was too strong.
All content has been completed before these very strong monster sets.
Get over it.
Well if that's the case, then maybe that will shut up all the PvE'ers blaming PvP for this nerf. I mainly PvP and i NEVER wanted this nerf. This is at best a bandaid fix and at worst an ineffective fix because as you said, this won't even prevent procs from being stacked and there are still powerful proc sets vs useless proc sets. I would rather they just buff some of the other proc sets so we have some diversity to our cancer.
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Yolokin_Swagonborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »I think the core problem isn't the proc set but the "burst" meta. Proc sets need balancing in pve, but no nerf, at least not that much. The best ones does pretty much the same damage as classic skills, and that's seem fine to me. The problem is that our damage are more or less equal to our life pool, so burst damage are far better than anything else. And of course, these procs artificially add some free hits who further boost our burst.
The best solution in my opinion should be to remove this burst meta, damage and healing altogether. Two problem, though : the high difficulty to do it properly (balance is hard, we all know that) and the high amount of work ZOS will need for that.
The fight I'ld love to see are fight where we need 5-6 seconds to kill a dps, 8-10 a heal, and more for a pure tank who can't do any damage, and where a proper cycle and dots are useful. No more instant-heal, no more instant-kill. I have some ideas to do that, but none are complete solutions for now.
Not just damage or heal, problem is nothing ever has any consequences. You just wasted your ulti into block? No problem, you will have it back in no time. You just held block for 5sec and only blocked enemy light attacks? No problem, hold it few minutes more. You just got ganked, but survived with 10% hp? No problem, instantly have it full again. Someone just wasted half theirs resources to combo you, but you broke free from cc and dodged everything (costing you half the resoures as well)? No problem, you both are full again. You bursted enemy shield, leaving their real HP vulnerable to dmg? They recasted it. You stunned the enemy so you can finally deal your damage? No problem, either their instantly broke free or you managed only to pop their shield before they come back. You casted DoT on them? No problem, they either didn't even notice or purged it instantly.
There is no middle ground for anything, if its not some prolonged duel of players with similiar build, nothing that isnt lethal burst attack really matters.
I am glad people are finally realizing its the infinite resource meta (and burst meta) that are really what is wrong with PvP. They are two sides of the same coin. You need burst to kill people with infinite resources and you need near infinite resources to heal/shield back up quickly after being burst down.
PvP used to be completely different. Regen was softcapped at 1300. You really had to work on sustain. Fights lasted longer and the meta was resource management not stack mitigation, damage, regen and burst. Tanky builds weren't tanky because they were at the armor cap, anyone could get to the armor cap, tanky builds were tanky because they could outsustain.
also everyone is forgetting that the Champion system makes Proc Sets 25% more powerful. The champion system gives max CP characters 3k more of each resource, and the champion system gives you enough sustain to run a really greedy damage stacking build that has no gear based sustain.
CP and no limits on attributes and resources is the real cause of all of these nerfs.2