"Crafted sets will always be stronger"

Slurg · December 2016

I hadn't paid much attention until I decided to craft a new 5 piece set for my husband's new character and it was hard to find a set that was worth crafting for a mid-level character instead of scouring guild stores to find 1-2 more appropriate level pieces of the partial dropped sets he was already wearing. He says (being noob and not knowing better), oh, I need the jewelry too, and I had to explain that you can't make jewelry for crafted sets. So he asks, then how are the crafted sets better if the stats are the same as dropped sets and you can't make jewelry for them?

The only logical response is, they are not, for the most part, other than getting to pick the style. However if you don't care about appearances or wear costumes, it's hard to justify going through all the effort to become a master crafter these days and I advised him against putting in the effort, since I already have. Seems to me the most useful thing about being a master crafter now is the passive to upgrade drop sets using fewer tempers, and you can get that just by deconstructing enough things.

QuebraRegra · December 2016

Alcast wrote: »

Was that not a thing back in the days? Did ZOS not say that crafted sets shall stay superior to dropped gear? Or am I mistaken?
Scrolling through the list of craftable sets makes me almost throw up, most of them completely useless and underpowered.

That was a straight up lie. I bring ti up from time to time, but I'm glad someone else took a turn.

bulbousb16_ESO · December 2016

Egonieser wrote: »

Crafted sets should be good supplementary sets but by no means superior to dropped ones EVER. That is a bad decision for the game's longevity.

Any game with any sense of vision will have Crafted > Dropped. ALWAYS.

kojou · December 2016

The original intention was that crafted sets would have a little bit higher stats than drop sets, as someone mentioned previously. This was changed a while back... can't remember what patch number...

One thing ZoS Developers have excelled at is making useless 5 piece bonuses... It is just a shame so many of them are on crafted sets.

I have thought about compiling some lists..."Sets that are almost good, but could use a tweak" and "Sets that are basically useless and should be either removed or rethought completely."

I don't think it will do very much good, so I never bothered wasting the time on it. I think they already know which ones they are anyway.

DPShiro · December 2016

Just make a really rare material drop from Vet Hard Mode Trials and with those you can craft some super duper new sets, and also select the style.

Paneross · December 2016

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Egonieser wrote: »

Crafted sets should be good supplementary sets but by no means superior to dropped ones EVER. That is a bad decision for the game's longevity.

Any game with any sense of vision will have Crafted > Dropped. ALWAYS.

Why bothered doing end game content if you can just make the best gear in the game?

Dropped>Crafted

Jamini · December 2016

Paneross wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Egonieser wrote: »

Crafted sets should be good supplementary sets but by no means superior to dropped ones EVER. That is a bad decision for the game's longevity.

Any game with any sense of vision will have Crafted > Dropped. ALWAYS.

Why bothered doing end game content if you can just make the best gear in the game?

Dropped>Crafted

"Stupid RNG system I've been farming vMA for a year straight and still don't have a sharpened inferno staff."

Crafted > Dropped.

Paneross · December 2016

Jamini wrote: »

Paneross wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Egonieser wrote: »

Crafted sets should be good supplementary sets but by no means superior to dropped ones EVER. That is a bad decision for the game's longevity.

Any game with any sense of vision will have Crafted > Dropped. ALWAYS.

Why bothered doing end game content if you can just make the best gear in the game?

Dropped>Crafted

"Stupid RNG system I've been farming vMA for a year straight and still don't have a sharpened inferno staff."

Crafted > Dropped.

In terms of power and or value all MMOs have this :

dropped >crafted

Or Destiny's case
Dropped > Purchased

Paneross · December 2016

Because you're bad at the game shouldn't mean you can make best gear obtainable. That would just spit in the face of all the hardcore players.

DHale · December 2016

Another rumor on top of all the rest. I was also told by a dev when I was reported for dragon leaping into keeps while not intended is a dynamic and high risk reward scenario we like to see in ESO. Now it's bannable.

Pallio · December 2016

They might be now with the upcoming nerfs to proc sets.

SwaminoNowlino · December 2016

lol at all these forum warriors trying to teach @Alcast about the game. I'm pretty sure ZOS did a stream where Alcast was actually teaching the Devs some new mechanics as his group ran their new content.

Thanks @Alcast, I needed this man.

His point is the disparity between sets like Ashen Grip and sets like Viper. Ashen grip has a 10% chance to proc a tiny amount of damage compared to Viper's 100% chance to proc a nice hit. Its not like this was some design decision regarding the direction of the game, its just easier to add Viper than it is to go back and adjust the numbers on all of the crappy sets. I think there are even a couple sets that impact stuff that isn't even in the game anymore.

There's a difference between executing a plan and being lazy. We are all pretty familiar with the path they tend to choose. (I.e the sledgehammer being taken to all proc sets instead of adjusting the few that are over-performing). As a matter of reference, as Alcast pointed out in another thread, Ashen grip will be taking the same hit in update 13 that Viper is, which is simply hysterical.

Edit: The stream to which I am referring was even funnier because the guys hosting the stream kept having to deal with Alcast and his magnificent inventory of 4 letter words.

STEVIL · December 2016

Paneross wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Egonieser wrote: »

Crafted sets should be good supplementary sets but by no means superior to dropped ones EVER. That is a bad decision for the game's longevity.

Any game with any sense of vision will have Crafted > Dropped. ALWAYS.

Why bothered doing end game content if you can just make the best gear in the game?

Dropped>Crafted

IMO a realistic interpretation is that crafted should be better than casual drops.

By casual drops i mean overland sets, typical dolmens, group content like dungeons and the like.
i do not include as casual content trials, vmsa or dsa and basically any leaderboard type content.

But equally realistically they dont need to be better if they offer something unique.

you can have a system where both crafted is rewarded and drop sets encourage replay content *IF* both offer something unique.

Drops have jewels, 2pc, 3pc, and weapon sets/mael weapons in addition to 5pc sets like crafted get.

All crafted gives you is a faster way to get the 5pc with traits you want and looks.

You can have both as sustainable operations sharing the same universe if you give crafted unique capablities, not just convenience and cosmetic.

4pc crafted sets make this happen IMO.

Add a bunch right away with a drop-one-bonus for crafteds.
Add more 4pc/5pc as time goes on.
Adds build diversity.

#MakeCraftedEquipMatter

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO · December 2016

Even before One Tamriel there were only a handful of viable crafted set around and as a professional crafter been doing those over and over again (It's a joy to have now and then been asked for odd sets, but that was simply rare and is now non-existent)

Before the inflation of dropped sets (now all end game and with jewellery) many viable if not best in slot set combos were a combination of dropped and crafted sets (if only for the jewellery for the first) + monster and/or arena stuff.

With all the dropped sets now. The only sets this one has been crafting were for levelling up, with training and/or the rare former set for those who needed something while grinding the new sets on a new char with a few odd pieces for role-playing (in special styles) thrown in.

In comparison with before: Crafting is nearly non-existent. Crafters will probably soon be listed as endangered species.

Now, it is understood that with One Tamriel there were a lot more important things to straighten out then crafting.
However, with that now out of the way, ZOS, please, have a look at some of the many ideas for improving crafting, like

replace the tripple redundant crafting stations with ones for new sets as now everyone can travel everywhere
increase the options for bonus combination with the crafted sets, there still is a great imbalance.
change sets in such a way that only crafted sets have a double 5th bonus. Right now some dropped have this, but no crafted set (with the exception of Kagrenac, for which frankly the other 5th bonus is rather blah)
change crafted sets so that they also got a 1 item bonus.
and last but not least, please consider adding crafted jewellery. Maybe without (or only by exceedingly rare) means of improving it unless done so by the crafter or on crafted items only or ...

and many more of those ideas proposed since beta on these forums, there are a lot of really good ones out there already

Lord_Etrigan · December 2016

Bryanonymous wrote: »

Pretty sure they never said that. I think you are remembering the reference that crafting items will always be stronger than the crown store, which itself is just a statement that could easily be changed later on. Fact is, crafted sets suck pretty bad with a few exceptions. TBS, Julianos, Hundings, NMG, and a few others can be pretty good stat boosters, but then you look at the majority of them, and you're like 'wtf'? Most of them are just trash. Especially the higher trait ones that you wait so long to get. Really wish they would just overhaul most of these and also throw in a couple more magic DPS sets. However, without jewelry crafting, really doesn't matter.

Watch this space! It won't be long before specialised sets, jewely, crafting abilities appear in either the crown store or crown crates.

User_Name · December 2016

DHale wrote: »

Another rumor on top of all the rest. I was also told by a dev when I was reported for dragon leaping into keeps while not intended is a dynamic and high risk reward scenario we like to see in ESO. Now it's bannable.

What? This is like my main pleasure playing a DK, leeping onto keeps and WB people off the walls and then dying. Is this really bannable? Where is that written?

Alcast · December 2016

@SwaminoNowlino Thanks, ye you got it 100% right! ZOS is either too lazy or does not care at all about gear balance. A blind fish could see that the imbalance between those sets is huge.

DHale wrote: »

Another rumor on top of all the rest. I was also told by a dev when I was reported for dragon leaping into keeps while not intended is a dynamic and high risk reward scenario we like to see in ESO. Now it's bannable.

LOL.....ye I honestly do not know why ZOS went on such a huge witchhunt. I was surprised they did not ban me bc that was all I did in 1.6 up to thieves guild

jaburns wrote: »

@Alcast

Yeah, they also said that there were going to be "intelligent drops" implemented with 1T.

Yesterday, I got a Burning Spellweave Bow... powered. (increased healing received?!?!)

I member......I member....Want some Infused Alkosh Staves? I have so many of those I could build a house lol

Fudly_budly · December 2016

Thanks for all the game history. I've only played a year so had no idea how we arrived where are.

Seems to me that both ends of the spectrum drop vs craft come with significant investment of time, gold or both.

Farming drops takes a lot of time to get what you want but crafting also comes with significant cost. A crafted set of cp 160 epic gear can set you back a cool million gold in mats. There's no undo button either. Then there's the hours and hours of farming mats to replace what you use to make that TBS (which I'll finally be able to craft mid January).

When I parse everything down to the most common component, I get to "Time."
Here's the ZOS-player Paradigm for ESO and it works for every single part of the game:
ZOS will always stretch things out as long as possible because their incentive is time-based economics. Players want quick, save time game play.
Time=money
I'll be dumb-founded amazed if any "fixes" to crafting are implemented in the next year. Their top guy "likes" proc gear, so they're going to keep us grinding that gristmill.

TequilaFire · December 2016

Paneross wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Egonieser wrote: »

Crafted sets should be good supplementary sets but by no means superior to dropped ones EVER. That is a bad decision for the game's longevity.

Any game with any sense of vision will have Crafted > Dropped. ALWAYS.

Why bothered doing end game content if you can just make the best gear in the game?

Dropped>Crafted

Uh, so you can do the end game content in the first place.
They can always add other greater rewards to end game.

Paneross · December 2016

TequilaFire wrote: »

Paneross wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Egonieser wrote: »

Crafted sets should be good supplementary sets but by no means superior to dropped ones EVER. That is a bad decision for the game's longevity.

Any game with any sense of vision will have Crafted > Dropped. ALWAYS.

Why bothered doing end game content if you can just make the best gear in the game?

Dropped>Crafted

Uh, so you can do the end game content in the first place.
They can always add other greater rewards to end game.

Is this the first MMO you've ever played?

NO other MMO has a system that has crafted gear > dropped gear. No successful MMO I should add.

You make crafted gear to help you complete the hard content to get better gear.

starkerealm · December 2016

Paneross wrote: »

Why would they be better? If that was true there'd be no reason to add end game content to the game. Trials and DSA and VMA should rightfully be better than anything you can craft. It's takes more work and dedication rather than just researching and gathering mats.

It's an old statement, @Paneross, from before the game launched. When there were no Trials, no DSA, and no Maelstrom.

Originally, one of the elements of the crafting system was that crafted gear was flat out better than what you'd get in drops. Crafted gear had a hidden +1 level adjustment to its stats. So, if you had a green level 24 crafted piece of armor, and compared the stats to a green level 24 drop item, the crafted one would have slightly higher stats. (And they would match to level 25 drop gear.)

That's the way it was at launch. That's the way it remained until the Imperial City DLC dropped. At that point, crafted equipment lost it's +1 level modifier, and was exactly equivalent to drop gear at that level. Basically for the reason you stated. Crafted gear invalidated most endgame content. The monster helms were the first attempt to address this, but ultimately, there wasn't much reason to run endgame content before that. (Except dyes, bragging rights, jewelry, and a few sets).

But we have this thread because someone came along and saw the old quite, about how crafted goodies would always be better than what you could get "naturally" in game. How armor would have higher stats, weapons would do more damage, potions would have stronger benefits, enchantments would be better, and food would be stronger. Except, now, some of that's no longer true.

mann9753b16_ESO · December 2016

Solariken wrote: »

It's bad - REALLY bad - especially for an Elder Scrolls game.

WTF are you babbling about?

It is exactly the crafting system you would expect from an Elder Scrolls game.
You level up and then use Skillponts to unlock new Styles.

Actually, its an improvement to the Elder Scrolls system, since you can actually change how your armor or weapons look like and you can actually level it up without making 1.000.000. Iron Daggers...

Other than that its 1:1 the system we know from previous Elder Scroll games.

Dont know what kind of mods you were using that made the crafting better...

Edziu · December 2016

please tell me how this craft set is stonger than any other dropped set like this :v

starkerealm · December 2016

Edziu wrote: »

please tell me how this craft set is stonger than any other dropped set like this :v

Ashen Grip is always AoE, Red Mountain isn't.

Of course, you'd need to hit 6 or 7 foes with Ashen Grip to make up for it. Also, not that it matters, but AG can trigger on any melee attack, while RM requires you're actually using your weapon abilities.

Edziu · December 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

please tell me how this craft set is stonger than any other dropped set like this :v

Ashen Grip is always AoE, Red Mountain isn't.

Of course, you'd need to hit 6 or 7 foes with Ashen Grip to make up for it. Also, not that it matters, but AG can trigger on any melee attack, while RM requires you're actually using your weapon abilities.

AG can only on direct melee damage, to direct melee damage you dont have to much skills, or nb surpise attack, or 2 1st skills from s&b or wreck blow while with red mountai just keep endless hail and spam rapid strikes (basic ability for every dps on stam especjally with msa duals) and red mountain can proc every those 2 seconds

+ aoe from this AG haha, in fron of you, its then range like kragh, small range + from kragh you have more damage, around 1.5k-1.6k x4 hits with 3 sec cooldown instead of 4 like in AG and only single hit for pathetic 1.1k damage

Alcast · December 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

please tell me how this craft set is stonger than any other dropped set like this :v

Ashen Grip is always AoE, Red Mountain isn't.

Of course, you'd need to hit 6 or 7 foes with Ashen Grip to make up for it. Also, not that it matters, but AG can trigger on any melee attack, while RM requires you're actually using your weapon abilities.

Ha! Look at this

Compare those to ashen grip, all AOE dmg, especially Widowmaker
Czykx0lXUAAWnra.jpg:large

Clarkieson · December 2016

Well it will make very little difference one everything is nerfed to the ground, the monster set nerf is just the beginning.

No one will craft sets

No one will do undaunted pledges

And once dropped sets get nerfed, and i bet a kuta on it happening, no one will do dungeons or trials

Would anyone like to go fishing?

bulbousb16_ESO · December 2016

Paneross wrote: »

Why bothered doing end game content if you can just make the best gear in the game?

Why bothered? Plenty of reasons to bothered. For fun? Entertainment? Crafting MATERIALS, maybe?

technohic · December 2016

Paneross wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Egonieser wrote: »

Crafted sets should be good supplementary sets but by no means superior to dropped ones EVER. That is a bad decision for the game's longevity.

Any game with any sense of vision will have Crafted > Dropped. ALWAYS.

Why bothered doing end game content if you can just make the best gear in the game?

Dropped>Crafted

If you are doing end game content for gear, is it really "end game" content? To me; it always seemed I want gear to do end game content rather than the other way around.

Paneross · December 2016

I'm glad that dropped sets are better and will continue to forever be.