Why can't MMO companies just run an honest business?

Kova · December 2016

Without being too long winded, it's a simple short term profit problem. Remember that when a company passes a certain revenue threshold, product sales cannot EVER support the companies desired worth. This is where Short Term Profits techniques come into play. No company expects to last forever so they rely on quarterly revenue to attract investors, the ones who really bring in the money. As a general rule, investors don't give two shakes about long term reliability. They want to buy in and profit immediatly. So a swell in revenue attracts this kind of Avenue like flies. What generates the most short term profit for an MMO? Compulsive buying of "premium" goods valued higher than the products market worth.

Simple.

Stovahkiin · December 2016

I typically would agree with this argument, but I'm gonna side with Zeni here due to the extreme amount of whining in some of these posts I keep seeing recently. Could Zeni put some more work into their releases? Absolutely, the Breton Hero costume immediately comes to mind in that regard.

However, MMO games are not cheap to make to begin with, neither is server upkeep, neither is paying a full staff of workers. Now that the game is essentially free to play, without charging extra to get certain items and features, where the hell else do you guys expect Zeni to get their money?

Something that people seem to forget is that running MMO games is indeed a business. It isn't just meant for you to enjoy and then give nothing back to the creators who spent ridiculous amounts of time and money to make the game.

lucky_Sage · December 2016

I think they are getting better or at least I hope the housing system seems good but wont know till release.
I have hope for this game and right now this the mmo out that has best potential. but this past year they've been making it worse and hope they fix it. 2 20$ dlc they where suppose to be in game at launch and them pushing for people to only play game for a months then come back next quarter and spend 60 dollars again. but I think there learning I hope.
spent lots of time money for this game I love to play to fail.

DHale · December 2016

Honestly don't be blaming ZOS... this is our fault.... less than 50 cents a day was just to much. You know on top of the 5 dollar Starbucks drink and the 300 a month data plan. ZOS is a business... here to make money. Just like every video game company. I don't care about crown crate one way or the other. it's not my business nor is it yours if people want to buy them or not like casinos, lottery tickets, Las Vegas. All the preaching fell on deaf ears when I logged on and am surrounded by lightning mounts here there everywhere. While I rode out on my one gold imperial mount I have had since April 2014.

This is something people wanted... silly but hey people stand in line for every new I phone or stay the night at a store for 30 dollars off a tv. The success of crown crates should make you think I should just play my game. It was appearently not a bad business decision based on my anecdotal reveiw of my pvp guild and the 16 new atronach mounts... only two of us were on non crown crates mounts. But I took the razzing because it's none of my business how other people spend their money.

Riejael · December 2016

I did a quick look. And $14.99 in 2004 (when most MMOs were 14.99 and not 12.99), is equal to $18.95 in today's value adjusted for inflation. But MMO's still only charge $14.99.

Let that add some facts to the discussion.

AtraisMachina · December 2016

Exactly capitalism at its best.

bellanca6561n · December 2016

It's actually quite simple.

The free to play model began in two countries: Germany and Korea.

Neither had sinister intent. Both were adjusting to business challenges that didn't exist in the States.

I'll stick with Korea to avoid a longer post and because it was the Korean model, originally developed by Nexon, that we see a lot of today.

Most of their customers could not afford computers. They played in gaming versions of internet cafes called PC Bangs (pronounced bongs). Paying both the game center fee plus a subscription fee for online offerings was a show stopper for many.

But, if you offered access to the game for free, and charged for extras, you could fill up your servers and thus created added perceived value for the extras, thus make money.

It seemed fair. You gave people with little money access to the game and allowed those with money to enable the game to turn a profit.

So, what went wrong?

The model proved to be more profitable - by an astonishing margin - than any previous subscription model.

The reason it was so much more profitable originally came as a surprise: a tiny fraction of customers were paying hitherto unimaginable amounts of money every month - money the game could never gain access to through a fixed fee.

Thus it was adopted in the States.

Those are just the facts, no value judgement attached.

FortheloveofKrist · December 2016

honest : business :: jumbo : shrimp

Darethran · December 2016

Stovahkiin wrote: »

However, MMO games are not cheap to make to begin with, neither is server upkeep, neither is paying a full staff of workers. Now that the game is essentially free to play, without charging extra to get certain items and features, where the hell else do you guys expect Zeni to get their money?

Oh that's easy.

Back in the day, before the money-grab that is DLC, there were these things called "expansions". You buy the base game, and get a decent lot of content. Then the game company releases another decent lot of content, which you then buy. Then they release another expansion, and the cycle continues.

If you mean how else can a company make lots of profit whilst adding zero content? Nothing else comes to mind.

Eshelmen · December 2016

It's a game. And if it's a game you're not happy with, or how the devs do things, move along. It's as a simple as that.

As far as I've seen, Zeni hasn't over promised while under delivering. Yeah cosmetic stuff here, cosmetic stuff there, but with tamriel one, this game offers as much content as any other mmo I've played. And I don't even need to sub to enjoy it.
I've done my master Crafting, I own all the DLCs, and I am satisfied and feel I've definitely got my moneys worth.

Maybe their game model isn't as good at certain things, like offering more PVP options, but dueling came out recently and it's a blast. They've revamped IC multiple times already, and they've done a lot to Cyrodiil in regards to more to do/capture and increased performance.

Are they perfect? No. But who really is?
Are they dishonest? No, I don't think they are. They're trying to make money, just like we all are.

The beauty of today's available game market, is there are literally countless of video games to try and play.

Marto · December 2016

MajinCry wrote: »

Oh that's easy.

Back in the day, before the money-grab that is DLC, there were these things called "expansions". You buy the base game, and get a decent lot of content. Then the game company releases another decent lot of content, which you then buy. Then they release another expansion, and the cycle continues.

If you mean how else can a company make lots of profit whilst adding zero content? Nothing else comes to mind.

Designing a 128x128 texture for World of Warcraft is far easier than a 4k texture for ESO

Game development, as a whole, has gotten WAY too expensive, to the point where expansion-sized content is nonexistant. That's why so few developers do it, and why DLC is creeping into every game.

In almost every situation, DLC is more expensive. The packages might be smaller, 1-10 dollars instead of 30-60, but the ammount of content is not proportionate, thus, giving more money to the developer.

Technically speaking, it is also better for the consumer. Instead of being FORCED to pay 40 dollars for content you may or many not want, you have it cut in three, 15 dollar packages.
If you only want one package, your wallet is not hurt, and the developer makes even MORE money (15+15+15 = 45, overall increase in price)

Solariken · December 2016

It's true, the overwhelming majority of online games currently on the market have business models that are inherently predatory.

This is one of the many, many reasons I am so looking forward to Camelot Unchained - it's going to be a subscription only game.

Predatory economics aside, cash shops inevitably undermine the integrity of the game world and crush immersion.

alexkdd99 · December 2016

Most businesses main goal is to make money. Most businesses employ whatever methods to get each one of their customers to spend as much money as they can with them. This is how pretty much every business works. Apparently it is only gamers who see this regular business practice as bad or unethical.

Go do some research on what other businesses are doing and you will see for the majority that gaming companies are no different than and other business.

When they pay to acquire a customer they want that customer to spend all their money with them. This is virtually every business. Nothing wrong with anything zos or any of these other companies are doing. If there was they would be arrested, sued, and/or shutdown.

Entitlement is strong within this community.

Stovahkiin · December 2016

alexkdd99 wrote: »

Most businesses main goal is to make money. Most businesses employ whatever methods to get each one of their customers to spend as much money as they can with them. This is how pretty much every business works. Apparently it is only gamers who see this regular business practice as bad or unethical.

Go do some research on what other businesses are doing and you will see for the majority that gaming companies are no different than and other business.

When they pay to acquire a customer they want that customer to spend all their money with them. This is virtually every business. Nothing wrong with anything zos or any of these other companies are doing. If there was they would be arrested, sued, and/or shutdown.

Entitlement is strong within this community.

This. Pretty much what I was getting at in my post too.

Wifeaggro13 · December 2016

Eshelmen wrote: »

It's a game. And if it's a game you're not happy with, or how the devs do things, move along. It's as a simple as that.

As far as I've seen, Zeni hasn't over promised while under delivering. Yeah cosmetic stuff here, cosmetic stuff there, but with tamriel one, this game offers as much content as any other mmo I've played. And I don't even need to sub to enjoy it.
I've done my master Crafting, I own all the DLCs, and I am satisfied and feel I've definitely got my moneys worth.

Maybe their game model isn't as good at certain things, like offering more PVP options, but dueling came out recently and it's a blast. They've revamped IC multiple times already, and they've done a lot to Cyrodiil in regards to more to do/capture and increased performance.

Are they perfect? No. But who really is?
Are they dishonest? No, I don't think they are. They're trying to make money, just like we all are.

The beauty of today's available game market, is there are literally countless of video games to try and play.

Well they kinda did. Underdeliver that is. Both DB and TG were meant to be released as content that was scheduled for release but did not make it in. As for promises I don't think Zos has ever promised anything. Other then they were releasing a MMO. But if you stack them up against other Dev teams on the content scale post 24 months launch. Not only have they over charged for dlc they also kept a sub option and rereleased dlc with extra cosmetics for 3x the amount of money the original Dlc price tag.

If you stack them up against a Sony Eq2 xpac yes they are very thin on content. If you stack them up against a Start up dev team like Trion pfffft. They released more content in 9 months for free then Zos has in two years while charging 15 bucks a pop. The only xpac that really had some meat in it was a pvp xpac.

Darethran · December 2016

Marto wrote: »

MajinCry wrote: »

Oh that's easy.

Back in the day, before the money-grab that is DLC, there were these things called "expansions". You buy the base game, and get a decent lot of content. Then the game company releases another decent lot of content, which you then buy. Then they release another expansion, and the cycle continues.

If you mean how else can a company make lots of profit whilst adding zero content? Nothing else comes to mind.

Designing a 128x128 texture for World of Warcraft is far easier than a 4k texture for ESO

Game development, as a whole, has gotten WAY too expensive, to the point where expansion-sized content is nonexistant. That's why so few developers do it, and why DLC is creeping into every game.

In almost every situation, DLC is more expensive. The packages might be smaller, 1-10 dollars instead of 30-60, but the ammount of content is not proportionate, thus, giving more money to the developer.

Technically speaking, it is also better for the consumer. Instead of being FORCED to pay 40 dollars for content you may or many not want, you have it cut in three, 15 dollar packages.
If you only want one package, your wallet is not hurt, and the developer makes even MORE money (15+15+15 = 45, overall increase in price)

Uh, the artists don't make textures at 128x128 resolution. They make them at whatever super high resolution they're working at, then downscale it. ESO's no different; plenty of 512x512 textures kicking around.

And the process of actually making textures is the same, regardless of resolution. Rarely are textures made from scratch; what they do, is they take the model's UV map, slap on a tileable texture, add some differences in colour with Mudbox, maybe some sculpts from a high poly model, then render it to a diffuse map. It's the exact same process used for damn near every game since early 2000.

The reason why developers don't do expansions, is that DLC is cheaper to make, and people will gobble it up. Two of the single-zone DLC for ESO costs the same as the base game, after all. Capitalism 101; make the most money with the least effort. If people will pay more, sell for more.

Another £20 for a whole host content, say, another pack on the scale of the base game, is much better than another £10 for not even 1/20th of the content of the base game.

Wifeaggro13 · December 2016

MajinCry wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

MajinCry wrote: »

Oh that's easy.

Back in the day, before the money-grab that is DLC, there were these things called "expansions". You buy the base game, and get a decent lot of content. Then the game company releases another decent lot of content, which you then buy. Then they release another expansion, and the cycle continues.

If you mean how else can a company make lots of profit whilst adding zero content? Nothing else comes to mind.

Designing a 128x128 texture for World of Warcraft is far easier than a 4k texture for ESO

Game development, as a whole, has gotten WAY too expensive, to the point where expansion-sized content is nonexistant. That's why so few developers do it, and why DLC is creeping into every game.

In almost every situation, DLC is more expensive. The packages might be smaller, 1-10 dollars instead of 30-60, but the ammount of content is not proportionate, thus, giving more money to the developer.

Technically speaking, it is also better for the consumer. Instead of being FORCED to pay 40 dollars for content you may or many not want, you have it cut in three, 15 dollar packages.
If you only want one package, your wallet is not hurt, and the developer makes even MORE money (15+15+15 = 45, overall increase in price)

Uh, the artists don't make textures at 128x128 resolution. They make them at whatever super high resolution they're working at, then downscale it. ESO's no different; plenty of 512x512 textures kicking around.

And the process of actually making textures is the same, regardless of resolution. Rarely are textures made from scratch; what they do, is they take the model's UV map, slap on a tileable texture, add some differences in colour with Mudbox, maybe some sculpts from a high poly model, then render it to a diffuse map. It's the exact same process used for damn near every game since early 2000.

The reason why developers don't do expansions, is that DLC is cheaper to make, and people will gobble it up. Two of the single-zone DLC for ESO costs the same as the base game, after all. Capitalism 101; make the most money with the least effort. If people will pay more, sell for more.

Another £20 for a whole host content, say, another pack on the scale of the base game, is much better than another £10 for not even 1/20th of the content of the base game.

thank you for pointing that out MMOs are actually easier to build now then they were in early 2000, way easier. There are far more engines to use. and the tool sets are so streamlined world building is easy.

Its the actual game systems they are skimping on. group size, roles and classes, abilites, and for a large part mechanics.

vanillexhope · December 2016

If the item store makes ESO more money than subscriptions alone, I'm all for it. I don't find anything dishonest about that. People who want to throw money at something they use and enjoy is fine. It looks like we have some updates coming up in a few months. Obviously the game is not completely abandoned. Once you feel you simply aren't getting your money's worth (if you pay anything) or the game isn't worth your time or affection, simply find something else. I'm all for constructive criticism. As long as it is indeed constructive and the writer understands the final decision is up to the developers. No one is forcing anyone to play or pay for this. Maybe take a break, keep an eye on news for the game, and come back when it sounds like the game is more acceptable to you.

Code2501 · December 2016

I felt strongly enough about the company spending resources on stuff like crown crates rather than actual dlc and systems the players were asking for that I just unsubbed and walked away. I still have 5k+ unspent crowns on the account but there is no content to buy so i put it down to a lesson learnt.
Maybe in a few years they will rotate out the current management team and actually invest in content rather than cash-grab gimicks.
We'll see.

NewBlacksmurf · December 2016

Because it involves a decent amount of people....the more ppl you add into something the more different values and morals that come into play.

Some say it's noX while others say X is over the top ...even others just accept X as it is

STEVIL · December 2016

Phinix1 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Can you provide any factual basis for ESO having locked 90% of this content into crates?

I am extremely curious as to how you arrived at this figure.

It has been many months since any new costumes were added to the straight up cash shop. Now they have added more vanity and cosmetic items to the gambling casino in one patch than in the last year of flat-rate legit micro transactions.

It may not be 90% of everything they have ever done since the release of the game over 2 years ago, but if present trends are any indication, it is very doubtful there will be many new cosmetic RP or convenience items that don't go straight to the gambling casino.

Time will tell.

Uhhh werent cosmetic itens added with the halloween festival?
I defitely recall seeing new stuff each featured with hair stuff etc.

It has seemed to be a steady stream... didnt we just get wolves recently not in crates?

I mean you may be right about specifically costumes, since the new vanity item types like personalities are being prioritized over the old types but trying to take the percentage of stuff the month when a new thing is added is lacking any credibility.

The Great Stevilnak predicts the month they introduce housing the percentage of housing related additions will vastly outnumber the number of non-housing vanity additions during that same month... but that wont lead the Great Stevilnak to say they have locked into housing too much of their creative efforts or that they will continue to keeo that same "release day" ratio.

Derra · December 2016

If the product you have does not warrant the price you want for it - it´s hard to run an honest buisness model.

JamilaRaj · December 2016

alexkdd99 wrote: »

Most businesses main goal is to make money. Most businesses employ whatever methods to get each one of their customers to spend as much money as they can with them. This is how pretty much every business works. Apparently it is only gamers who see this regular business practice as bad or unethical.

Go do some research on what other businesses are doing and you will see for the majority that gaming companies are no different than and other business.

When they pay to acquire a customer they want that customer to spend all their money with them. This is virtually every business. Nothing wrong with anything zos or any of these other companies are doing. If there was they would be arrested, sued, and/or shutdown.

Entitlement is strong within this community.

What entitlement? Because the OP's question could be easily rephrased as: why they can not just take the same amount of money (or more) and deliver a game instead of online casino. It would not be terribly hard to calculate monthly per player revenue X, launch no cash shop, no scams server, and ask for 2X/month for playing there. But no, it is either scamming or bust.

Paraflex · December 2016

Here's the solution stop buying crown crates and stop buying ESO plus they will continue to make revenue generating items if we continue to buy. It's like anything vote with your dollars.

Real problem is there is a large market with mommy and daddies money that supports in game virtual purchases such as crown crates...smart businesses know this and make a living off of it.

Eshelmen · December 2016

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Eshelmen wrote: »

It's a game. And if it's a game you're not happy with, or how the devs do things, move along. It's as a simple as that.

As far as I've seen, Zeni hasn't over promised while under delivering. Yeah cosmetic stuff here, cosmetic stuff there, but with tamriel one, this game offers as much content as any other mmo I've played. And I don't even need to sub to enjoy it.
I've done my master Crafting, I own all the DLCs, and I am satisfied and feel I've definitely got my moneys worth.

Maybe their game model isn't as good at certain things, like offering more PVP options, but dueling came out recently and it's a blast. They've revamped IC multiple times already, and they've done a lot to Cyrodiil in regards to more to do/capture and increased performance.

Are they perfect? No. But who really is?
Are they dishonest? No, I don't think they are. They're trying to make money, just like we all are.

The beauty of today's available game market, is there are literally countless of video games to try and play.

Well they kinda did. Underdeliver that is. Both DB and TG were meant to be released as content that was scheduled for release but did not make it in. As for promises I don't think Zos has ever promised anything. Other then they were releasing a MMO. But if you stack them up against other Dev teams on the content scale post 24 months launch. Not only have they over charged for dlc they also kept a sub option and rereleased dlc with extra cosmetics for 3x the amount of money the original Dlc price tag.

If you stack them up against a Sony Eq2 xpac yes they are very thin on content. If you stack them up against a Start up dev team like Trion pfffft. They released more content in 9 months for free then Zos has in two years while charging 15 bucks a pop. The only xpac that really had some meat in it was a pvp xpac.

EQ is absolute garbage now Imo. And I don't see the point of comparing a game that's had many many years to work out its kinks. ESO hasnt had even three.

As far as TB and DB goes, it's whatever. More quests, more places to farm etc..
I've gotten my moneys worth with those too.

Korah_Eaglecry · December 2016

MajinCry wrote: »

Stovahkiin wrote: »

However, MMO games are not cheap to make to begin with, neither is server upkeep, neither is paying a full staff of workers. Now that the game is essentially free to play, without charging extra to get certain items and features, where the hell else do you guys expect Zeni to get their money?

Oh that's easy.

Back in the day, before the money-grab that is DLC, there were these things called "expansions". You buy the base game, and get a decent lot of content. Then the game company releases another decent lot of content, which you then buy. Then they release another expansion, and the cycle continues.

If you mean how else can a company make lots of profit whilst adding zero content? Nothing else comes to mind.

2001 called. It wants its excuse back.

Nerouyn · December 2016

lordrichter wrote: »

WoW does not have to introduce Pay To Win because they are still above critical mass. They got to critical mass at a time when it was much easier to reach that point. Putting it bluntly, Blizzard was there with WoW at the right time. Today, WoW is mainly riding on habit and just the sheer mass of people and the main goal is to just hold it together.

Yeah I think a lot of people don't realise that WOW got really lucky with their timing. It was a very good game - especially compared to the competition at the time - and they marketed it perfectly so I don't begrudge them their success.

But knowing that they couldn't match WOW's success and even if they did that they'd mostly be stealing their own customers is probably a big part of why they ceased development on Titan.

notimetocare · December 2016

Phinix1 wrote: »

This is something I have noticed and attempted to understand for years. Since this is the ESO forum I will use this game as an example, but it is by no means the only one or even the worst offender.

For the past year we have seen the gradual, seemingly inevitable push to cash shop whale milking creeping into this once great game, becoming more and more overt and offensive and culminating in the recent addition of casino crate gambling preying on the "gotta catch 'em all" OCD/addict mindset.

It seems MMO's are destined to move (in a matter of only a couple years or less where before it would at least take 3-4) towards a business model much more like a criminal scam artist or a drug pusher than a legitimate, healthy customer/producer relationship.

Customers are increasingly treated like the enemy, or like something to be manipulated and in an increasingly disdainful, even openly hostile way, in order to manufacture some psychological victim/dependency condition that (they apparently think) will result in them buying more of what the MMO producers are pushing.

Here is what I don't understand:

History has shown people will buy whatever is available. So, what makes MMO producers so sure this is the ONLY model that would sell? Why not focus on producing quality and convenience and let the product speak for itself? Why not run an honest business?

By all accounts, ESO was doing well with sales and community support back when the subscription model was still going (better than it is now). Then they decided to push into the B2P/cash shop micro-transaction model.

I could sort of write this off at the time as "well, it is just the fad of the moment, everyone is doing it, and the suits fresh out of business school ZOS probably hired must have read it in their corporate indoctrination bibles that this was the way it must be done. It was an example of a general lack of vision, passion, and inspiration in the industry, but not necessarily of malice or corruption.

Then they started cutting back on content and milking "limited time only" mount reskins for $30-$50 dollars a pop and yes, this did seem greedy and offensive. In fact many people left the game because of it and the direction it was going. The writing was on the wall, or so it seemed to many. Yet the most die-hard fans and supporters stuck it out hoping it was just a stumble on the road to a better business model...

Of course that turned out not to be the case.

Then you have games like Black Desert and so many others with outright pay-to-win in the cash shop, unfair advantages, cheap 1-shot mechanics selling real-money resurrection items to avoid XP loss built right into the game, even PAID CHARACTER RESPECS. ESO's move to preying on gambling addicts is just another example of this corruption.

But here's the thing.

Statistics show that masses of players LEAVE THE GAME when this starts getting offensive, which is why the B2P/F2P model has traditionally come to be seen as a sign of the beginning of the end, something MMO companies do to milk whatever remaining customers they have for all they're worth before they shut down the servers or sell off their assets to some B-rate management company that basically keeps the cash milk going with the minimum possible new content.

It seems like MMO producers have become increasingly desperate, short-thinking, and paranoid. They mechanically march to the same generic model, doing what everyone else does, thinking it must be "safe" (because how could so many failed games be wrong, right?).

The thing is, the more these companies push this corrupt and offensive BS, the more they chase away their fans, their customers. This is the self-fulfilling prophesy that leads to the very financial dire straights which fear of led them to pursue such tactics in the first place.

Why is it so difficult to realize that the reason business is suffering is BECAUSE of these cheap tactics, that they are the REASON people are leaving, NOT what will bring them back.

Is it something in our postmodern psychology? Some need to rage against the concept of organized morality (read: the modern anti-religion movement gone systemic and malignant and attacking anything that isn't overtly greedy or outright evil just for the sake of it), another "safety in numbers" excuse?

Is it a modern cookie jar scenario? A compulsory need to do the wrong thing on purpose, even if it hurts you?

In many ways, MMO companies remind me of shallow, clueless, teenagers rebelling for the sake of rebelling but not having the foggiest notion what they are doing it for, yet stubbornly pushing forward on a wave of pure vanity even when the results are only hurting themselves.

I guess there isn't much wisdom to go around these days.

We always wondered what would happen when the Nintendo generation finally grew up to be the man in charge. I guess this is it?

I am disappoint.

Because young people are the majority of players, and current young people want everything free.

acw37162 · December 2016

You really might want to re-evaluate your thinking MMO's especially in the case of this MMO are a multi-million dollars up front investment. In this case of this MMO a quick google search says 200 million by two or theee websites.

The people behind a 200 million investment are not business stupid and while the guys who run this walk around in shorts and hoodies you can make no mistake they are well aware of dollars and cents spent.

I am on record as hating the crown crates and still do. You should publish your odds and average cost in dollars not because it's a law or any other reason you should publish gods things because you respect your consumer.

Also, from your own post a argumentive individual could draw a parallel that the game has improved along with the crown store creep.

Soundwave · December 2016

I only play eso because it's on console, don't care if their dishonest. It's still a business and profit is number one priority. Sad but true, not saying u can't make a profit by being honest. Just today's market, it's all about making that bonus at the end of each quarter.

If it's shinny and new customers will pay, just look at iPhone; a new one every year or even copy and paste Call of duty. (Waiting for the remaster mw2

)