Why can't MMO companies just run an honest business?

Stovahkiin

Soundwave wrote: »

I only play eso because it's on console, don't care if their dishonest. It's still a business and profit is number one priority. Sad but true, not saying u can't make a profit by being honest. Just today's market, it's all about making that bonus at the end of each quarter.

If it's shinny and new customers will pay, just look at iPhone; a new one every year or even copy and paste Call of duty. (Waiting for the remaster mw2 )

Once again, I think this sums things up pretty well

1mirg

Phinix1 wrote: »

By all accounts, ESO was doing well with sales and community support back when the subscription model was still going (better than it is now). Then they decided to push into the B2P/cash shop micro-transaction model.

I could sort of write this off at the time as "well, it is just the fad of the moment, everyone is doing it, and the suits fresh out of business school ZOS probably hired must have read it in their corporate indoctrination bibles that this was the way it must be done. It was an example of a general lack of vision, passion, and inspiration in the industry, but not necessarily of malice or corruption.

You seem to be conveniently forgetting the huge amount of complaints they received during and outside of beta about ESO being a subscription model and how many (including me) refused to play a elder scrolls product which required a active subscription. I'm not saying your wrong but I'm not saying your right neither. Just saying that your reasoning here seems to be construing the details on their decision to go into a buy to play model instead of a subscription based one in a rather negative manner is all.

Katahdin

Ive played since beta and have been subbing since day 1.
If the sub model had been working they would have kept it.
There were not enough people subbing to support the game at the beginning.
B2P has brought in more box sales and more people into the game.
It was that or shut down the game and the servers.
As much as I dislike the crown crates, they arent as bad as I first thought they would be.
At least you can accumulate crown gems to trade for what you want in case you dont get it as a drop.
I would rather B2P and crown store filled with cosmetic merchandise than no ESO at all.

timidobserver

Lol@ honest business. There is no such thing.

Balamoor

Okay so variations on a theme aka lets see what other way we can *** about Crown Crates.

I think those that hate them have expressed their hate in every way imaginable.


* The fact is they are very very successful and are not going anywhere.
* Anyone that thinks WoW does not have any form of pay to win WoW tokens would like to have a word with you (especially since Epics and hard to get mounts can now be purchased in the auction house.)
* The best way to protest a product is to no use said product. There are MMo's that don't have a cash shop. Good luck and Happy trails.

idk

@Phinix1

Your title insinuates they run a dishonest business. Zos does run an honest business and just because the model is not to your liking does not make it anything else.

More an more MMOs are going to a cash shop to augment their revenue for continued game development. The cost of developing items for the cash shop is really low so it is a good addition business wise and helps subsidize the building of new content and maintaining the business itself (equipment and other overhead).

In the end it is your choice to buy items from the cash shop just as it is your choice to spend any $$ on this game going forward.

1mirg

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Zos does run an honest business and just because the model is not to your liking does not make it anything else.

Z.O.S. is quite a honest company but they appear to be low on manpower to properly run the game in a fluid manner such as other companies do (i.e. blizzard) but they're still rather open and honest about things, for the most part. The original poster also seems to have forgotten that they did infact clarify the change in model over a year ago on a "ESO Live" video. The video and portion which they address it can be found here and in the video they do infact state that this change was mostly in-part due to the massive amount of complaints they've received from their players about the payment model of the game. So, if anything the payment model should infact prove that ZOS does run a honest company and does infact listen to it's playerbase than anything. Though, on other matters such as the decline/ inactivity in developer posts on the steam forums for the game. It can prove that the company is having some difficulty managing the game as of this moment; but that's another topic all together.

Jaeysa

I view the crown store as I view gifts and nick-knacks in book shops.

If the shop had been doing well selling only books they wouldn't have taken some of that space previously used for books and started selling gifts/knick-knacks. I would rather the store stay open, possibly having a bit less in the way of books to buy but still a good place to spend an afternoon and find a new author.

Likewise, if ESO had been doing well with the subscription, they wouldn't have transferred most of their income to the crown store, requiring that they spend some of the dev time that previously would have been in content on crown store items. I would rather the game stay open, with perhaps a little less content, than close down completely.

As for what's in the crown store, I don't really see anything dishonest about it. You spend crowns, buy in-game items, mounts, pets, costumes. All of which you can preview. You buy the crown crates? You know you're buying a 'chance' at something.

Knootewoot

There are still mmo's around with a honest business model, ie Ryzom and Pirates of the Burning Sea.

Those mmo's don't have big greedy corporate's behind them, but also these mmo's get little to no updates and have a very, very small playerbase.

Ankael07

Just like politicians, business models are a reflection of the voters/consumers to an extent. I vote with my wallet and according to what Zos does with pvp.

Doctordarkspawn

Because they feel the need to by corporate suits who want nothing but money, money, money.

And yet they wont just repeatedly sell a crown store item, for some reason. They'll do this, but throw away repeat or new customers on a specific mount of costume. The mind boggles.

Messy1

What evidence is there that ESO was doing better under subscription model than now?

umagon

The ultimate way to get companies to change their business practices is by modifying or enacting legislation, that outlines how they can conduct business or face penalties. However, one of the quickest ways for an immediate change to their practices is to boycott the purchase of their goods and/or services. But for a boycott to work there would have to large enough financial impact to the point it cripples the business. Then they are forced to change or go out of business.

MasterSpatula

I'll tell you what: The entire model of an MMO is based on something rather like an opium addiction. Opium addicts "chase the dragon." They never catch it. They're always seeking that perfect high, but they never get there.

MMO players are chasing the dragon of a satisfying experience. We're never meant to get there. After all, if we're ever actually satisfied, what reason would we have for continuing to play and pay? The entire model is based on us logging off reluctantly, having accomplished less than we wanted to get done in game, needing to get back on and try (and fail) to actually get there.

Everyone who makes entertainment for a living knows "leave them wanting more," but the MMO takes it to an extreme.

Take from that whatever moral conclusions you will.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Why can't MMO companies just run an "honest" business ?

Because being unethical makes more profit than being ethical - in other words, being ethical costs money (in business terms, less money = loss of potential money).

A completely independant business can decide to make less profits for the sake of ethics. But very few businesses are truly independant. Because they compete with other businesses on several markets : the consumers' market of course, but also the raw materials' market, the investors' market, the workforce market.

In order to be able to say "we decide to make less profit for ethical reasons", a whole manufacturing chain has to be developed around that principle. You need investors who agree on less ROI for the sake of ethics. You need shareholders who agree on less dividends for the sake of ethics. You need employees who agree on lower salaries for the sake of ethics. You need suppliers who agree on lower prices and ethical conditions for the sake of ethics. You need customers who agree to pay more for the sake of ethics. One part of the chain alone cannot survive by cutting profit for the sake of ethics. Their employees would leave for a better salary elsewhere, their investors would put their money elsewhere for better ROI, etc.

Some manufacturing chains have developed over the years with A LOT of effort and determination, mainly in the areas of health/environment and fair trade. I bow to those "idealists" who manage, step by step, to change the world. Maybe something like that will emerge in the videogame industry as well. But frankly, if I have some money to invest, I will choose to invest it in child-labour-free industrial chains rather than in a crown-crate-free videogame industry.

Skcarkden

DHale wrote: »

Honestly don't be blaming ZOS... this is our fault.... less than 50 cents a day was just to much. You know on top of the 5 dollar Starbucks drink and the 300 a month data plan. ZOS is a business... here to make money. Just like every video game company. I don't care about crown crate one way or the other. it's not my business nor is it yours if people want to buy them or not like casinos, lottery tickets, Las Vegas. All the preaching fell on deaf ears when I logged on and am surrounded by lightning mounts here there everywhere. While I rode out on my one gold imperial mount I have had since April 2014.

This is something people wanted... silly but hey people stand in line for every new I phone or stay the night at a store for 30 dollars off a tv. The success of crown crates should make you think I should just play my game. It was appearently not a bad business decision based on my anecdotal reveiw of my pvp guild and the 16 new atronach mounts... only two of us were on non crown crates mounts. But I took the razzing because it's none of my business how other people spend their money.

No, ZOS *do* get the blame. They didn't try hard enough, infact they seemed to be going for the polar opposite. Originally they had a subscription loyalty bonus system. sub for x number of days total over the life of your account, get some extra exclusive goodies. Neat, if it had still existed when the game reached consoles i would have definitely gone for it. But wait... what's this i hear? they removed it? why's that? I dunno, why would ZOS take time out of their day to earn their paycheck and tell us things? Maybe they couldn't figure out how else to say they didn't want to incentivise us giving them money? Maybe they thought they were being extremely generous with 10% extra gold from drops that always round down because 10% of 4gold and .4 gold can't be represented in the game and Dave from accounting told them "Hey, we're barely breaking even giving players 10% gold from subscribing, remove the loyalty system, the non-existent cost to it can't be justified"

When it comes to money making decisions ZOS hired the wrong guyand it clearly shows when decent ideas are scrapped when they don't even need to be (other games that have loyalty sub systems, can end after 1000 days and they don't scrap the entire system to punish future subbers for not g\being 'loyal' sooner) and promoting ideas that just divide the community further with dishonest practices.

ZOS earn that blame, not the consumers, no one told them to remove sub loyalty system, and no one begged them to force them to have to gamble for their items. ZOS made their decisions without us. It's all on them as it backfires.

Cherryblossom

Phinix1 wrote: »

This is something I have noticed and attempted to understand for years. Since this is the ESO forum I will use this game as an example, but it is by no means the only one or even the worst offender.

For the past year we have seen the gradual, seemingly inevitable push to cash shop whale milking creeping into this once great game, becoming more and more overt and offensive and culminating in the recent addition of casino crate gambling preying on the "gotta catch 'em all" OCD/addict mindset.

It seems MMO's are destined to move (in a matter of only a couple years or less where before it would at least take 3-4) towards a business model much more like a criminal scam artist or a drug pusher than a legitimate, healthy customer/producer relationship.

Customers are increasingly treated like the enemy, or like something to be manipulated and in an increasingly disdainful, even openly hostile way, in order to manufacture some psychological victim/dependency condition that (they apparently think) will result in them buying more of what the MMO producers are pushing.

Here is what I don't understand:

History has shown people will buy whatever is available. So, what makes MMO producers so sure this is the ONLY model that would sell? Why not focus on producing quality and convenience and let the product speak for itself? Why not run an honest business?

By all accounts, ESO was doing well with sales and community support back when the subscription model was still going (better than it is now). Then they decided to push into the B2P/cash shop micro-transaction model.

I could sort of write this off at the time as "well, it is just the fad of the moment, everyone is doing it, and the suits fresh out of business school ZOS probably hired must have read it in their corporate indoctrination bibles that this was the way it must be done. It was an example of a general lack of vision, passion, and inspiration in the industry, but not necessarily of malice or corruption.

Then they started cutting back on content and milking "limited time only" mount reskins for $30-$50 dollars a pop and yes, this did seem greedy and offensive. In fact many people left the game because of it and the direction it was going. The writing was on the wall, or so it seemed to many. Yet the most die-hard fans and supporters stuck it out hoping it was just a stumble on the road to a better business model...

Of course that turned out not to be the case.

Then you have games like Black Desert and so many others with outright pay-to-win in the cash shop, unfair advantages, cheap 1-shot mechanics selling real-money resurrection items to avoid XP loss built right into the game, even PAID CHARACTER RESPECS. ESO's move to preying on gambling addicts is just another example of this corruption.

But here's the thing.

Statistics show that masses of players LEAVE THE GAME when this starts getting offensive, which is why the B2P/F2P model has traditionally come to be seen as a sign of the beginning of the end, something MMO companies do to milk whatever remaining customers they have for all they're worth before they shut down the servers or sell off their assets to some B-rate management company that basically keeps the cash milk going with the minimum possible new content.

It seems like MMO producers have become increasingly desperate, short-thinking, and paranoid. They mechanically march to the same generic model, doing what everyone else does, thinking it must be "safe" (because how could so many failed games be wrong, right?).

The thing is, the more these companies push this corrupt and offensive BS, the more they chase away their fans, their customers. This is the self-fulfilling prophesy that leads to the very financial dire straights which fear of led them to pursue such tactics in the first place.

Why is it so difficult to realize that the reason business is suffering is BECAUSE of these cheap tactics, that they are the REASON people are leaving, NOT what will bring them back.

Is it something in our postmodern psychology? Some need to rage against the concept of organized morality (read: the modern anti-religion movement gone systemic and malignant and attacking anything that isn't overtly greedy or outright evil just for the sake of it), another "safety in numbers" excuse?

Is it a modern cookie jar scenario? A compulsory need to do the wrong thing on purpose, even if it hurts you?

In many ways, MMO companies remind me of shallow, clueless, teenagers rebelling for the sake of rebelling but not having the foggiest notion what they are doing it for, yet stubbornly pushing forward on a wave of pure vanity even when the results are only hurting themselves.

I guess there isn't much wisdom to go around these days.

We always wondered what would happen when the Nintendo generation finally grew up to be the man in charge. I guess this is it?

I am disappoint.

Whilst what you say is wonderful, you seem to assert statisics without any sources to back them up. Don't take this the wrong way, but MMO companies have all the statistics and will know what produces the best results.

They have seen they can get longevity from a game by adding more content to stop people leaving and moving to the next new thing. This has birthed the DLC addon's, which personally I find more offensive than a cash shop where it is optional. Whereas DLC's if you want to play with friends is not really optional! This also ties in with many new games coming out half formed where they have already created new content but this is hidden behind a pay wall which they will release over time.

ESO however has done this better in my opinion where I can still sub and have access to all DLC on a sort of rental basis.

FearlessOne_2014

Riejael wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

It seems MMO's are destined to move (in a matter of only a couple years or less where before it would at least take 3-4) towards a business model much more like a criminal scam artist or a drug pusher than a legitimate, healthy customer/producer relationship.

I've only seen this in foreign developed MMOs such as Archeage and Black Desert. However FFXIV did NOT do this, despite (or more likely because of) being Japanese.

History has shown people will buy whatever is available. So, what makes MMO producers so sure this is the ONLY model that would sell? Why not focus on producing quality and convenience and let the product speak for itself? Why not run an honest business?

Can you explain how ESO does this? (if its the crown crate, we'll agree to disagree to avoid a thread lock)

But here's the thing.

Statistics show that masses of players LEAVE THE GAME when this starts getting offensive, which is why the B2P/F2P model has traditionally come to be seen as a sign of the beginning of the end, something MMO companies do to milk whatever remaining customers they have for all they're worth before they shut down the servers or sell off their assets to some B-rate management company that basically keeps the cash milk going with the minimum possible new content.

I've not seen this myself. Here's a list of games that surged when they went F2P, at least ones I've played myself:

Everquest
Everquest 2
Star Trek Online
Star Wars the Old Republic
Elder Scrolls Online (yeah its far busier then it was when it launched)
Tera

To put it simply... F2P doesn't signal a decline or death of a game. EQ.. is 17 years old. It went F2P a few years ago and boomed in population. They opened up several progression servers. A progression server is one you have to Sub to login to, its limited in content that slowly unlocks expansions over time. The new servers had new hardware to hold DOUBLE what a normal server could. The first one filled up. So they opened a second one. It filled up. They decided to add a queue system to a game which never needed it in 15 years. For a F2P game, Everquest is doing well after 17 years and 23 expansions.

And truth be told, I think you are falling into a bandwagon of hating on the company that makes your favorite games. Every game has it. Everyone claims devs don't listen (even in games where I've spoken 1 on 1 with a dev). And everyone is greedy.

If this was true, you wouldn't be here. No one would. No one actually believes the words they say. Otherwise games like ESO, SWTOR, WoW, EQ, and so forth would fail like games like Wildstar and Skyforge.

But the truth is in the pudding. Players play because its not as bad as they claim. Or even not true. I mean you've admitted yourself, ESO isn't that bad. I haven't seen anything dishonest. I get what I pay for. I get a great game to play. The game gets new content. Balance passes here and there. Customer service seems to be good, I had a little issue when I came back a few weeks ago that was resolved within a day.

I have little to complain about. I'm not going to say ESO is perfect. But its perfect enough to have drawn me away from WoW. To choose it over going back to FFXIV, Tera, or even trying a new game. Hell, Planetside 2, a game I've played for 4 years alongside other MMOs, I haven't touched.

Its very easy to get wrapped up in the negativity in a games' forums. It really is. Its easy for our generation (assuming you're in your mid 30s or older), and the one after to get latched on to this idea that we can't say good things about a big business. That they are always somehow trying to cheat us. Its not always true. And you don't have to feel guilty for enjoying the game that they made for you.

I don't feel guilty, I don't ever feel guilt for enjoying a product. But I also won't stick around a game that I feel is slacking, or operated by a dishonest company. If I feel the game's quality is dropping. If I think the company is dishonest, immoral, unethical, or is simply taking me for granted, I will move on. I won't play even for free (as I would generate content for paying members), I won't pay, and I won't continue to drive hype and attention to the product through posting on their forums. I'll simply vanish. Which I have done with companies in the past. As well as when I get bored or want to try something else.

That should be something everyone should take a hard look at:

1. Are you getting bored?
2. Is there something else you want to play?
3. Do you feel cheated?
4. Do you feel lied to?
5. Do you feel like the company is being dishonest?

If you say yes to any of those questions, for any game, you should cease playing and go elsewhere. Trust me, its a much better solution. There's no way any of those five things will change because of a forum post. Well with the exception of MAYBE 1 and 2. But in those cases you can leave and come back later, which I've done myself. Everything I've said thus far I've done myself. So this isn't a simply "If you don't like it, then leave" response. Its merely advice based on my own actions. And I've been very satisfied with my decisions.

1. Only if I play this game with a hardcore competitive mindset other then that it's almost heaven for casual play.

2. There are at times, which is why I've always main 1 game and play 2 or 3 other games on the side at a time.

3. No I could do much worst, like these people who brought into the promise of One Man's Lie.

4. Only a little again same answer as #3

5. I do but then again what MMO companies in the past 6 years was completely honest or even honest at all. They got to make them sales.

No I don't need to be playing elsewhere because overall I like ESO for what it is. Being a Oblivion and Skyrim fanboy might have something to do with this as well tho. I'll more then likely continue to play ESO till Skyrim Special Edition modders port their mods from Skyrim over or until TES VI releases. Till then ESO will be that theme park MMO that I spend a little time in every here and there.

Banetek

Betheny wrote: »

Simple answer - big business is run by people with no souls.

In this case its ran by liberals

Banetek

svartorn wrote: »

This is capitalism. Honesty isn't profitable.

and socialism is only profitable to a few while the majority suffers..

Teverus

The free to play model is likely the only reason you're still able to play this game. ESO had a terrible launch that scared away almost everyone that was riding the hype train, myself included until recently.

The first game to notably have success putting cosmetic items up for sale in a store and come back from the grave by doing away with subscriptions was Dungeons and Dragons Online. There's little doubt that game would have continued to have supported itself either. No one viewed it then as unfair that a dying game could cleverly make a comeback of sorts, it was exciting news in the industry.

When the free to play model was first introduced as a thing, my buddies and I, as gamers, were pretty happy with it. It meant that MMO's that were failing to the competition no longer had to fall apart and be canceled due to being completely unprofitable. Many games have gone on to succeed using the model and I'd wager we would have lost many of these games like ESO were the model not profitable and fair.

The idea that some in this thread dole out, that Blizzard has a more ethical model with World of Warcraft is factually false. I and many of my friends paid the blizzard store hundreds upon hundreds of dollars each time we've gotten into that game for a month or two on a whim, just to sort out what server we're all playing on and which class we'd like to be playing at max level. I guarantee you, Blizzard's store makes an intense flow of money from their in-game store. Blizzard sells mounts, pets, and character levels amidst a pile of conveniences, like server transfers and alliance changes.

Putting cosmetic items behind a pay wall isn't some kind of weird class warfare. They're cosmetic items. They don't affect gameplay, they are additional to a gameplay experience already enriched with options. People don't buy them so they can laugh at people with less cash and point out how cruel fate is, people tend to buy cosmetic items based on how important that aspect of the game (or that aspect of their character experience is).

I personally don't like the idea of crates. Crates in and of themselves present a problematic experience when one is stubbornly trying to get one specific vanity item. But I think when viewed as a way to relieve yourself of excess crowns, from a subscription for example, it can be an alright thing for some people. Others may not use the feature responsibly, and that is a valid concern. I don't like crates.

But if there's nothing but vanity items in those crates, they don't affect me. If I were a gambling addict, I might feel differently. It does seem a shame that crates are becoming a big feature, but I'll live.

As a person with a modestly small gaming budget, I find my money goes into whatever I'm interested in playing each month. As such, I pay more money toward a game that offers cosmetic options and the like than a game with a simple flat subscription. I often feel like the karmic give and take of the F2P model is that I get stuff I want for money, and some other people who don't want to buy a subscription don't have to for the game to continue to be successful. Everyone wins, right?

Riptide

I hate being a white knight for a developer, and I fully realize that there are a group of folks here (as with every MMO) who spend a considerable amount of time on the forums as some sort of political outlet.

But dishonest? Unethical?

Shrug, its just such hyperbolic stuff. There are a lot of things I'd like to see done differently, but overall on balance I just don't grok the fist shaking. Just don't buy crates. The atronach mounts are complete fluff. I get the ire over the RNG model of it, but good gracious.

You have folks in this thread from one end of the other saying they are empty hearted capitalists to now socialists.

Want to protest the crates, focus down on that. They are never going to listen seriously if the arguments are needlessly and falsely going after their character. Just makes the community look like a pack of unreasonable weenies.

Armitas

In modern sales products are not tools for making money, the people are.

MornaBaine

Look at the state of the world and the corruption of nearly all governments. You need look no further to understand the current state of business and its practices.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Riptide wrote: »

I hate being a white knight for a developer, and I fully realize that there are a group of folks here (as with every MMO) who spend a considerable amount of time on the forums as some sort of political outlet.
But dishonest? Unethical?
Shrug, its just such hyperbolic stuff.

Not sure if you're referring to my post above, or the OP, or to several post in this thread in general.
I tried to explain why being ethical in general was a very ambitious goal for any company, and involved many aspects that are situated outside of said company.

Now whether crown crates / cash shops / B2P / F2P models in MMOs deserve such adjectives is a different debate entirely - and there are enough threads debating this already.

Just like you, I personally stand on the "don't like it, don't buy it, move on" line.

Phinix1

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Why can't MMO companies just run an "honest" business ?

Because being unethical makes more profit than being ethical - in other words, being ethical costs money (in business terms, less money = loss of potential money).

That would seem to be the assumption under which such businesses would be operating, but I don't believe it's necessarily true. History will testify that taking shortcuts and relying on unethical tactics in the short term more often than not leads to greater losses over time, to reputation first and eventually to profits.

I don't believe remaining competitive is necessarily mutually exclusive to ethical business practice either. If anything the later wins you more contracts and earns you respect and thus greater market interest. Innovation will always inspire greater success than manipulative repetition of the "standard model." Such models are for followers. The real fortunes are made by the leaders, and you don't get to be a leader or remain a leader by relying on follower tactics.

People need to ask themselves "why do I believe this is 'just the way the world works?'" I think they might discover it is an elaborate web of lies spun by followers.

The focus should stay on innovation. ESO has already brought plenty to the table with the Megaserver infrastructure and an intelligent B2P model that up until recently rarely left the average customer feeling neglected or left out. Buy a standard monthly sub worth of credits and leave the game feeling overall like a winner, like you could more or less have anything you really wanted from what the store had to offer. Get access to DLC on a rent-to-own type arrangement.

It worked and it earned them the respect of a lot of people, myself included.

As for these competing market interests you mention, it isn't straightforward. Market and investor interest is a web of cause and effect, where a myriad social, economic, and political factors all play a part in determining what seems like a good investment at the time. Economics is never a one-size-fits-all proposition, because it is based on supply and demand and humans are fickle creatures that change their minds about what they want on a whim.

Still, anyone in this business aught to know that when the economy is bad the entertainment industry booms. But it doesn't do it by catering to a minority who will spend big to flaunt exclusivity, or by "tricking" average customers into a payment pattern in the short term. That ways lies the "fool me once" path to diminishing reputation and thus diminishing returns.

The safest investment lies in satisfying the average consumer's need to escape the doldrums of their daily lives and maybe spend a reasonable amount of limited resources on a guaranteed return of quality goods and services. A million little purchases repeated over time is always better than a few huge ones in the short term, and most people are far more likely to invest in a sure thing than in a gambling casino.

But you need the reputation to carry that million little investments over time, which is how doing things which lead to a bad reputation directly equates to lost profit potential.

Then there is the workforce market you mention, another "human variable." Humans crave security and satisfaction. Just ask yourself, if you were an up and coming "hot commodity" or had some target skillset, what sort of company would YOU be looking to invest your time and energy and future prospects with? A company that emphasized short term gimmicks or one where you could let your talent shine and add something worthy to your resume in the process? Maybe even be a part of something you could take pride in on a personal level as well as professionally?

So how does one really go about winning in the workforce market? By winning hearts and minds rather than conquering, cornering, or commanding them.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Some manufacturing chains have developed over the years with A LOT of effort and determination, mainly in the areas of health/environment and fair trade. I bow to those "idealists" who manage, step by step, to change the world. Maybe something like that will emerge in the videogame industry as well. But frankly, if I have some money to invest, I will choose to invest it in child-labour-free industrial chains rather than in a crown-crate-free videogame industry.

Of course one must prioritize but also realize it is an interconnected world of interests and attitudes and environments where lack of progress in one area may end up limiting or taking away from progress in another. Of course the opposite is also true, that building momentum on all levels can lead to a greater net success of individual campaigns.

The best solutions take into account the greatest possible spectrum of concerns and strive to cultivate an environment where real lasting progress can thrive.

That is the path to true success.

Garrick

Out of interest, who does "run an honest business"? Businesses are run for profit and, as far as I can see, the only way to make a profit is to make people believe "the product" is worth more than they are paying for it. If companies were honest, then it would also be easier to see the true value of "the product" and competition would result in people paying less for it.

I'm trying to think of "an honest business". Nope, can't think of one.
- Banks, Telecoms and many service providers use misleading rules, hidden charges, and the natural tendency of some people to not pay attention to their spending to rack up fees.
- Builders, plumbers, and other contractors push premium materials that actually cost little more than the cheaper alternatives, or they install the cheaper alternatives anyway because you cannot tell the difference.
- Retailers mark items up only to slash their prices so that people think they are getting a good deal.
- Movie, games and other entertainment producers put out misleading advertising to get people to buy their product. They also try to control reviews and reviewers.
- Mechanics get you to pay for replacement parts that do not need replacing, sometimes not even replacing the part, or they take out perfectly good parts and use them with other customers.

There are "degrees of honesty" of course. In fact, it is all a matter of perspective. You might be a banker or lawyer who is technically cheating people out of thousands, yet you are outraged when you buy "organic" bread from a farm stand only to find it came from the local supermarket.

In the same way, you may consider Crown Crates to be taking unfair advantage of people, or pay-to-win, or whatever, while other people may see it as a way to get limited edition cool stuff. My personal opinion of Crown Crates is the same as my opinion of drugs, including smoking and drinking, gambling, fast food, infomercials and a whole host of "vices" and "scams" - no-one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to buy this stuff. People are providing a service, and if they did not provide the service someone else would. If there is a problem with society, it is not that people run dishonest businesses, it is that people are stupid enough to buy into the business model.

I don't want to defend ZOS or any other MMO company, but look at it from their point of view for a minute. They spent years putting this game together. Servers cost a lot of money. Content costs a lot of money. I expect they want to keep delivering new content, but if there is not enough cash coming in then they have to cut back. If the market for MMOs was like it was 10 years ago, then they could rely on a subscription fee to bring in the cash flow they need. But, as they painfully found out at launch, the business model has moved on. The old Everquest/WoW model was your "honest business model" I guess, but it only worked while competition was limited. ZOS found that people were unwilling to simply pay for the MMO, they wanted it without a fee commitment. So they had to switch to the subscriptionless model, which is more "dishonest" in many ways because it relies on people being dumb enough to pay extra for cosmetic items. I suspect they would rather have been more "honest", but had they stuck to more honest means the game would probably be shut down by now.

Cavedog

ZOS/Zenimax are not doing anything dishonest or deceitful. I understand the original poster and their feelings, but if you don't want to buy the stuff in the crown store, don't. It's not a scam. There is nothing in the crown store at this time that gives anyone a competitive edge in game.

The subscribers who support the game day in and day out and those that buy from the crown store are who are keeping the game alive and well and progressing to where we want it to be. Our perk is a craft bag for storage. That's it. If you don't want to buy the carrot that ZOS is offering, don't. You don't have to. But don't complain if you don't have the one perk the guys paying to keep the game alive are getting.

Phinix1

Cavedog wrote: »

But don't complain if you don't have the one perk the guys paying to keep the game alive are getting.

No one was saying the Crown store itself is bad. I sub and buy things from the store as well. What is arguably unethical is the introduction of gambling boxes that prey on the "gotta catch 'em all" completionist/addict personality types and require spending many, many times the monthly sub cost (potentially hundreds of dollars) just to MAYBE get something you want.

Stopnaggin

MakoFore wrote: »

dude- yeah u make some valid points about mmos and gmes- but zos is not one of them

- subscriber free
- free content- one tamriel- more free content coming with the housing - who else is giving us that?

sure there are alot of things that need fixing- but in terms of give and take- Zos is doing okay in terms of economy. they got a lot of things to fix- but in no way are they ripping anybody off.

1T was not new content. Free housing is not new content. They were features, not content. Rehashing old stuff that should have been in game from the start is what those were.

I'm neither for or against crown crates. I've bought a few. Got nothing special. I sub and have the crowns to do so. What I hope happens, is that this money goes into development of the game. Fixing issues, crashing after fast travel, lag everywhere and balance.

New content is great, brings in more players, more players more money. Good for ZOS, how they spend that money is entirely up to them. I would lie new content as much as the next guy, but if the problems persist what it the point. The last good content, Orsinium, was full of problems and still has issues to this day. I would like to see more testing, 1 month on PTS isn't long enough IMHO.

In that regard I would like to see consoles have a PTS, I know they said they wouldnt, but it would be nice. I know they to make money but pushing out broken content and fetivals isn't solving the problems with the game itself. It feel more like a distraction to hide the faults. Video game makeup.

Now even after all that, I still love the game. Have made lots of friends I've made. Lots of stuff to do. I will continue playing as long as I still enjoy the game.