Why can't MMO companies just run an honest business?

Phinix1

This is something I have noticed and attempted to understand for years. Since this is the ESO forum I will use this game as an example, but it is by no means the only one or even the worst offender.

For the past year we have seen the gradual, seemingly inevitable push to cash shop whale milking creeping into this once great game, becoming more and more overt and offensive and culminating in the recent addition of casino crate gambling preying on the "gotta catch 'em all" OCD/addict mindset.

It seems MMO's are destined to move (in a matter of only a couple years or less where before it would at least take 3-4) towards a business model much more like a criminal scam artist or a drug pusher than a legitimate, healthy customer/producer relationship.

Customers are increasingly treated like the enemy, or like something to be manipulated and in an increasingly disdainful, even openly hostile way, in order to manufacture some psychological victim/dependency condition that (they apparently think) will result in them buying more of what the MMO producers are pushing.

Here is what I don't understand:

History has shown people will buy whatever is available. So, what makes MMO producers so sure this is the ONLY model that would sell? Why not focus on producing quality and convenience and let the product speak for itself? Why not run an honest business?

By all accounts, ESO was doing well with sales and community support back when the subscription model was still going (better than it is now). Then they decided to push into the B2P/cash shop micro-transaction model.

I could sort of write this off at the time as "well, it is just the fad of the moment, everyone is doing it, and the suits fresh out of business school ZOS probably hired must have read it in their corporate indoctrination bibles that this was the way it must be done. It was an example of a general lack of vision, passion, and inspiration in the industry, but not necessarily of malice or corruption.

Then they started cutting back on content and milking "limited time only" mount reskins for $30-$50 dollars a pop and yes, this did seem greedy and offensive. In fact many people left the game because of it and the direction it was going. The writing was on the wall, or so it seemed to many. Yet the most die-hard fans and supporters stuck it out hoping it was just a stumble on the road to a better business model...

Of course that turned out not to be the case.

Then you have games like Black Desert and so many others with outright pay-to-win in the cash shop, unfair advantages, cheap 1-shot mechanics selling real-money resurrection items to avoid XP loss built right into the game, even PAID CHARACTER RESPECS. ESO's move to preying on gambling addicts is just another example of this corruption.

But here's the thing.

Statistics show that masses of players LEAVE THE GAME when this starts getting offensive, which is why the B2P/F2P model has traditionally come to be seen as a sign of the beginning of the end, something MMO companies do to milk whatever remaining customers they have for all they're worth before they shut down the servers or sell off their assets to some B-rate management company that basically keeps the cash milk going with the minimum possible new content.

It seems like MMO producers have become increasingly desperate, short-thinking, and paranoid. They mechanically march to the same generic model, doing what everyone else does, thinking it must be "safe" (because how could so many failed games be wrong, right?).

The thing is, the more these companies push this corrupt and offensive BS, the more they chase away their fans, their customers. This is the self-fulfilling prophesy that leads to the very financial dire straights which fear of led them to pursue such tactics in the first place.

Why is it so difficult to realize that the reason business is suffering is BECAUSE of these cheap tactics, that they are the REASON people are leaving, NOT what will bring them back.

Is it something in our postmodern psychology? Some need to rage against the concept of organized morality (read: the modern anti-religion movement gone systemic and malignant and attacking anything that isn't overtly greedy or outright evil just for the sake of it), another "safety in numbers" excuse?

Is it a modern cookie jar scenario? A compulsory need to do the wrong thing on purpose, even if it hurts you?

In many ways, MMO companies remind me of shallow, clueless, teenagers rebelling for the sake of rebelling but not having the foggiest notion what they are doing it for, yet stubbornly pushing forward on a wave of pure vanity even when the results are only hurting themselves.

I guess there isn't much wisdom to go around these days.

We always wondered what would happen when the Nintendo generation finally grew up to be the man in charge. I guess this is it?

I am disappoint.

Kronz

Everything in Society is business built to make money hello Criminal Justice and Health Care systems. So a company that invests millions of dollars and may or may not have stock holders will of course do the same.

In ESO's case I just hope they use half the money they earn to re invest into the game.

If there's no competitive advantage to the cash shop then who cares? From all the polls I have seen the vast majority of this game is working adults. If I really want a mount or motif bad enough to pay for it then I will buy it. If its only in the new gambling crates then ok I know the game before I spend money on it. If I love the game I can live w/o these things. If I have to have it well I can easily pay for it as can a large portion of the player base.

If ZOS decides to just farm out the cash shop and not honestly develop the game, then that's where I would quit. However as of now my only real grip is there isn't more pvp options, however supposedly next year at some point there will be.

This is my opinion.

AuldWolf

This is like asking why mobile titles have unethical methods of making money. It's the future of mainstream video games. I've seen the continued, distasteful gentrification of MMOs as an ongoing process for quite some time, now. This feeling that you're only welcome if you're affluent and your purse is truly overflowing. I'm not too poorly off, myself, as I have some money to my person. Not as much as some, but not as little either.

What I have is empathy for those who don't share my social bracket. I feel video games were much more reasonably priced around the late '90s and the early '00s, when the Dreamcast, Playstation2, GameCube, and the PC of its era was at its height. It was just coming off of a 16-bit era of overpriced games, when the industry realised they could make more money by pricing their titles much more reasonably. Now we've flipped back in the other direction. It's so questionable right now that even EA has gone on the record stating they dislike sales because they give the consumer too much power and choice.

Ths is the reason behind the rise of the indie title, and the resurgence of popularity of retro games. An older title or an indie game share that rather halcyon period of gaming where you paid a price for a game and that was that. I can stomach a subscription for ongoing content being developed, along with fair quid pro quo exchanges on a cash shop. Gambling is where I draw the line, though, because it raises the entry level for people who're both able to and desire to purchase a product beyond certain classes.

And that's what crates do. It's making sure that someone who's less well off can't save up and buy that mount they want, because now its locked within a clown crate. And once where they'd have to pay, maybe, $10-20, now they're looking to have to pay $400 for much the same thing. Like I said, it's the gentrification of MMOs brought about by greed, and it completely locks out entire classes who can't afford this nonsense. And it's unethical because those with gambling problems will buy beyond their means.

Welcome to the future of mainstream gaming.

I'm not entirely comfortable with it, either.

Phinix1

Kronz wrote: »

...

Fair enough. However I can't help but wonder if the reason you have such a cool-headed view of the problem is because it doesn't directly effect the part of the game you personally care about?

It sounds like you are mainly a PVP player? That's cool of course. But you have to understand, the Elder Scrolls isn't just an MMO, it is a franchise with a long and very specific history as a ROLE PLAYING pioneer. It stands to reason then that MUCH of the fan base are very much concerned about roleplay, character customization, and cosmetics.

By locking 90% of all new cosmetic and customization content behind a gambling casino that expects people to spend potentially hundreds of dollars and still not get what they want, it completely guts the interest and inspiration to invest of a huge portion (by all public accounts the clear majority) of the paying fan base.

Whether or not most customers HAVE money, it seems perhaps MMO companies are increasingly missing the mark on what will compel them to SPEND that money.

I for one, would not spend money on what I view as a borderline criminal manipulation (I still don't understand how these casino crates get around gambling laws) even if I were rich, and I am one of those working adults you spoke of.

But I am also first and foremost an Elder Scrolls fan, and this is SO not Elder Scrolls-y, it's sad.

Mojmir

Tell the truth and then you don't have to tell 2 lies.

Betheny

Simple answer - big business is run by people with no souls.

Riejael

Phinix1 wrote: »

It seems MMO's are destined to move (in a matter of only a couple years or less where before it would at least take 3-4) towards a business model much more like a criminal scam artist or a drug pusher than a legitimate, healthy customer/producer relationship.

I've only seen this in foreign developed MMOs such as Archeage and Black Desert. However FFXIV did NOT do this, despite (or more likely because of) being Japanese.

History has shown people will buy whatever is available. So, what makes MMO producers so sure this is the ONLY model that would sell? Why not focus on producing quality and convenience and let the product speak for itself? Why not run an honest business?

Can you explain how ESO does this? (if its the crown crate, we'll agree to disagree to avoid a thread lock)

But here's the thing.

Statistics show that masses of players LEAVE THE GAME when this starts getting offensive, which is why the B2P/F2P model has traditionally come to be seen as a sign of the beginning of the end, something MMO companies do to milk whatever remaining customers they have for all they're worth before they shut down the servers or sell off their assets to some B-rate management company that basically keeps the cash milk going with the minimum possible new content.

I've not seen this myself. Here's a list of games that surged when they went F2P, at least ones I've played myself:

Everquest
Everquest 2
Star Trek Online
Star Wars the Old Republic
Elder Scrolls Online (yeah its far busier then it was when it launched)
Tera

To put it simply... F2P doesn't signal a decline or death of a game. EQ.. is 17 years old. It went F2P a few years ago and boomed in population. They opened up several progression servers. A progression server is one you have to Sub to login to, its limited in content that slowly unlocks expansions over time. The new servers had new hardware to hold DOUBLE what a normal server could. The first one filled up. So they opened a second one. It filled up. They decided to add a queue system to a game which never needed it in 15 years. For a F2P game, Everquest is doing well after 17 years and 23 expansions.

And truth be told, I think you are falling into a bandwagon of hating on the company that makes your favorite games. Every game has it. Everyone claims devs don't listen (even in games where I've spoken 1 on 1 with a dev). And everyone is greedy.

If this was true, you wouldn't be here. No one would. No one actually believes the words they say. Otherwise games like ESO, SWTOR, WoW, EQ, and so forth would fail like games like Wildstar and Skyforge.

But the truth is in the pudding. Players play because its not as bad as they claim. Or even not true. I mean you've admitted yourself, ESO isn't that bad. I haven't seen anything dishonest. I get what I pay for. I get a great game to play. The game gets new content. Balance passes here and there. Customer service seems to be good, I had a little issue when I came back a few weeks ago that was resolved within a day.

I have little to complain about. I'm not going to say ESO is perfect. But its perfect enough to have drawn me away from WoW. To choose it over going back to FFXIV, Tera, or even trying a new game. Hell, Planetside 2, a game I've played for 4 years alongside other MMOs, I haven't touched.

Its very easy to get wrapped up in the negativity in a games' forums. It really is. Its easy for our generation (assuming you're in your mid 30s or older), and the one after to get latched on to this idea that we can't say good things about a big business. That they are always somehow trying to cheat us. Its not always true. And you don't have to feel guilty for enjoying the game that they made for you.

I don't feel guilty, I don't ever feel guilt for enjoying a product. But I also won't stick around a game that I feel is slacking, or operated by a dishonest company. If I feel the game's quality is dropping. If I think the company is dishonest, immoral, unethical, or is simply taking me for granted, I will move on. I won't play even for free (as I would generate content for paying members), I won't pay, and I won't continue to drive hype and attention to the product through posting on their forums. I'll simply vanish. Which I have done with companies in the past. As well as when I get bored or want to try something else.

That should be something everyone should take a hard look at:

1. Are you getting bored?
2. Is there something else you want to play?
3. Do you feel cheated?
4. Do you feel lied to?
5. Do you feel like the company is being dishonest?

If you say yes to any of those questions, for any game, you should cease playing and go elsewhere. Trust me, its a much better solution. There's no way any of those five things will change because of a forum post. Well with the exception of MAYBE 1 and 2. But in those cases you can leave and come back later, which I've done myself. Everything I've said thus far I've done myself. So this isn't a simply "If you don't like it, then leave" response. Its merely advice based on my own actions. And I've been very satisfied with my decisions.

Woeler

Wait, people don't work for free?

Kronz

Phinix1 wrote: »

Kronz wrote: »

...

Fair enough. However I can't help but wonder if the reason you have such a cool-headed view of the problem is because it doesn't directly effect the part of the game you personally care about?

It sounds like you are mainly a PVP player? That's cool of course. But you have to understand, the Elder Scrolls isn't just an MMO, it is a franchise with a long and very specific history as a ROLE PLAYING pioneer. It stands to reason then that MUCH of the fan base are very much concerned about roleplay, character customization, and cosmetics.

By locking 90% of all new cosmetic and customization content behind a gambling casino that expects people to spend potentially hundreds of dollars and still not get what they want, it completely guts the interest and inspiration to invest of a huge portion (by all public accounts the clear majority) of the paying fan base.

Whether or not most customers HAVE money, it seems perhaps MMO companies are increasingly missing the mark on what will compel them to SPEND that money.

I for one, would not spend money on what I view as a borderline criminal manipulation (I still don't understand how these casino crates get around gambling laws) even if I were rich, and I am one of those working adults you spoke of.

But I am also first and foremost an Elder Scrolls fan, and this is SO not Elder Scrolls-y, it's sad.

I understand the history of ES very well. ES chapter one was the first CPU game I ever played and was gifted to me for my bday in 8th grade. It was the reason I learned to build my first CPU. I fell in love immediately with the open world and building the staff of Chaos and defeating J. Thorne, something I don't think many people here today have had the luxury to do. Arena changed the way RPGs would be made from that point fourth.

When ES 2 Daggerfall came out I still remember it like yesterday. The nearest mall where I could purchase it was 45 minutes away and I had just got my licesnse. I drove as fast as I could so excited I didn't realize I was running out of gas. My truck did run out of gas about 3 miles from the mall. I just left it and ran to the mall before they closed so I could buy it and walked back to my truck and got gas from some kind homeowner, enough to where I could make it to a gas station.

I love the game, not as much as new ES chapter 1-5 game, but I still do. The cash shop in no way reduces my enjoyment. From what Ive seen 90% of the customization options are not hidden behind crates. If they become so then I would share your opinion.

Phinix1

Woeler wrote: »

Wait, people don't work for free?

No, not even drug pushers.

But that has nothing to do with what we were talking about.

We were talking about the moral ethics of drug pushing as a business model driving customers away.

Thanks for the insight though.

It was some darned insightful insight, yes sir.

Skcarkden

Woeler wrote: »

Wait, people don't work for free?

I really hate nonsense like this.

It's one the most useless, excusing comments anyone can make to justify greed, dishonesty, laziness.

No, of course people don't work for free. That is not the point, we aren't asking ZOS to make and produce everything in the game for free. Far from it we are asking they EARN their bloody money.

I mean, we could be talking about some obscenely wealthy tycoon who not only rips off their customers at extremely high prices but then also evades taxes to maintain so much money he couldn't possibly spend it all, and there'll be the one guy to say "Wait, he people don't work for free?" If you even dare suggest they be more honest with their business practices.

All i can really say to people who think like that, if you ever get mugged or robbed, just remember, people don't work for free...

Korah_Eaglecry

The biggest issue is that MMOs traditionally have not been successful. At least until WoW came around a lot of MMOs either didnt make a lot of money or barely paid off the cost of development before going into a life-support cycle with subscriptions. Some of them would eventually roll out some Expansions but still the games would mostly survive off of the subs to pay for servers to stay on.

After WoW made it big a lot of investors thought to cash in because they thought MMOs had finally broken into the mainstream. And to an extent they have. But they still have a very high rate of failure amongst other genres. Or at least they have yet to topple the MMO king that is WoW in terms of success. Or even coming close to it in terms of population and popularity.

Now 10+ years ago 15 dollars went a long ways to keeping the lights on and the servers running. But times change and the value of money changes. 15 dollars a month doesnt go as far as it used to. And it surely doesnt provide for new content without the population going over a certain threshold. And even then youre still going to need to pay back that investment that provided for initial development and then those investors are going to still want returns on those investments. Profits. So the company is going to need to look for ways to make that profit. And whats become popular, because its actually successful, are these scam boxes. Either by selling actual pay-to-win items in these boxes or in the case of ZOS cosmetics. People are willing to pay more because they want to rub it in that even in a digital environment, there is a difference between them and the rest of the population. That there is some sort of pecking order even in these games. That money should still impact your experiences in the digital world. Its absurd but it seems to have really caught on.

Do these businesses need to answer for their shoddy practices? Sure. But so do the rich ***tards that have way too much money and not enough real lives to spend that money on actual RL experiences.

Riejael

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

But so do the rich ***tards that have way too much money and not enough real lives to spend that money on actual RL experiences.

This is way too judgmental of others without any thought to the situation. What exactly constitutes 'RL experiences'? Especially when it comes to recreation?

Think about it. Does someone really want to go to a bar and pay for overpriced drinks around questionable strangers?
Go to an overpriced movie theater to sit in a concrete box with sticky floors and undersized seats?
Get blitzed on legal/illegal substances?

I mean not everyone has the option of recreational facilities such as bowling allies, skating rinks, or even arcades. Much of that has faded away for many.
Not everyone can go out on walks due to the polarization of society and its increasing risks.
I personally go to the Range for target shooting, but not everyone lives in an area that makes that possible.

Gaming has become a legitimate hobby. The way I see it, the ones who pay 20, 30, or even $500 for a unique mount are just enthusiast like in any other hobby. I mean look at cyclists. There are some who aren't even professional riding around on $5,000 to $10,000 bikes with helmet and clothing being about $1000 or more on its own.

Personally my other hobby, going to the range and collecting fire arms is far more expensive then anything I've mentioned before. People paying alot for a unique look or whatnot in a game doesn't mean they don't have a life. They have a hobby. I know its hard for many to understand if they don't have disposable incomes. But you have no right to judge them.

I haven't spent much on ESO to tell the truth. But frankly there's not much to spend on. The crown store is quite.. lacking compared to other MMO's I've played. So I have no idea where you get the idea there is some rich-expletive person who is buying things left and right here.

MakoFore

dude- yeah u make some valid points about mmos and gmes- but zos is not one of them

- subscriber free
- free content- one tamriel- more free content coming with the housing - who else is giving us that?

sure there are alot of things that need fixing- but in terms of give and take- Zos is doing okay in terms of economy. they got a lot of things to fix- but in no way are they ripping anybody off.

STEVIL

@Phinix1
"By locking 90% of all new cosmetic and customization content behind a gambling casino that expects people to spend potentially hundreds of dollars and still not get what they want, it completely guts the interest and inspiration to invest of a huge portion (by all public accounts the clear majority) of the paying fan base."

Can you provide any factual basis for ESO having locked 90% of this content into crates?

I am extremely curious as to how you arrived at this figure.

Phinix1

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

After WoW made it big a lot of investors thought to cash in because they thought MMOs had finally broken into the mainstream. And to an extent they have. But they still have a very high rate of failure amongst other genres. Or at least they have yet to topple the MMO king that is WoW in terms of success. Or even coming close to it in terms of population and popularity.

...

So the company is going to need to look for ways to make that profit. And whats become popular, because its actually successful, are these scam boxes. Either by selling actual pay-to-win items in these boxes or in the case of ZOS cosmetics. People are willing to pay more because they want to rub it in that even in a digital environment, there is a difference between them and the rest of the population. That there is some sort of pecking order even in these games. That money should still impact your experiences in the digital world. Its absurd but it seems to have really caught on.

If the goal was to replicate the success of WoW, then why not LEARN from what made WoW a success?

WoW never in over 10 years introduced pay to win items. They never abandoned the subscription model for cash shop micro-transaction and psychological marketing scams. They NEVER resorted to arguably unethical gambling boxes to fleece addict personality types.

So, if the almighty investor with their one true currency are looking to cash in on WoW's example, what makes them think resorting to such cheap underhanded tactics and things WoW NEVER DID is the way to do it?

It would be like trying to cash in on the success of Pablo Picasso by selling smut magazines. It makes no rational sense. I am forced to conclude then that these hypothetical "investors" are irrational or mentally deluded people.

Furthermore, it seems these people you describe, the target audience of these scams, the ones that spend ridiculous amounts of money just to rub it in people's face how much "better" they are than everyone else, are totally missing the point just as badly as the MMO producers chasing profits through manipulation rather than understanding better examples.

If someone goes to Vegas and blows an entire month's earnings in a splurge of gambling and indulgence, do people line up to praise them, tell them "hey man, way to go, I was really impressed by the way you fed those slot machines." No, because feeding slot machines is no actual accomplishment.

The whole point, of art or a hobby or life in general, is to do something worth doing, something that you love, something that will bring you joy and a sense of accomplishment. That is the idealistic spirit that led to WoW becoming such a success.

How can one chase the success of idealism through methods that embody the opposite?

If they honestly believe society is too stupid to know the difference then it is they who are fools.

What have these poor souls with their mountains of wealth and demands for respect actually done? What do they have to show for themselves? What have they actually CREATED? Is there anything that is actually OF THEM, from them, by them? Or is that why they seek to compare themselves to others by some meaningless standard like the quantity of paper they accumulate. The idea that one could simply purchase things that others have made and pass them off as their own achievements.

Human beings all seek meaning and even recognition. But recognition for having lots of money alone, with no consideration as to HOW they came to have it? It will not bring them the satisfaction they seek. It will not bring them true happiness and contentment, because underneath it all THEY will know it is a lie.

I have no problem with people spending money, but that attitude you describe is a real problem for our species, one that has led to the fall of more than one great civilization in our history. It is an attitude born of jealousy and a lack of self respect, and the real irony is that if they spent half the energy actually creating something that was theirs instead of chasing recognition through acquisition and comparison, they would not feel so empty that they needed to make enemies of everyone around them.

But part of our species' genetic memory is still bound to endless war and competition. It is a brutal scar left on the very soul of our history that is not so easily erased by a few centuries of technological progress. Which is why the human race, no matter how high it climbs, will always be one false step away from sliding right back into the Dark Ages that came so naturally to them.

Riejael wrote: »

Gaming has become a legitimate hobby. The way I see it, the ones who pay 20, 30, or even $500 for a unique mount are just enthusiast like in any other hobby. I mean look at cyclists. There are some who aren't even professional riding around on $5,000 to $10,000 bikes with helmet and clothing being about $1000 or more on its own.

No one is questioning spending money on one's hobby. What is in doubt is the motive and the attitude. People who seek to buy things to elevate their social status by comparison of material wealth to others and then try to claim it as a "hobby" are probably fooling themselves.

A true hobby is it's own reward. You don't have to be the only one to posses it or lord it over others or demand people respect you for it. Such behavior is of our lower nature and born of jealousy and greed and calling it anything but what it is just sounds like an excuse.

But I have a feeling that a lot of people throwing money at gambling boxes don't care about lording exclusive items over others or flaunting their status as if wealth alone meant something. I suspect many are victims of the marketing and unable to resist the temptation which is why such practices are totally unethical in my opinion. They prey on addiction-prone personality types.

I still have yet to hear a clear explanation why these business gurus believed they were chasing the success of WoW by resorting to underhanded casino tactics that WoW never indulged in.

MakoFore wrote: »

dude- yeah u make some valid points about mmos and gmes- but zos is not one of them

- subscriber free
- free content- one tamriel- more free content coming with the housing - who else is giving us that?

sure there are alot of things that need fixing- but in terms of give and take- Zos is doing okay in terms of economy. they got a lot of things to fix- but in no way are they ripping anybody off.

I agree, ESO is far from the worst. But to see them go down this path... It is just sad. The gambling crates were like a greased swan dive straight over the slippery slope.

I guess we'll just have to see how far the purse-string puppet-masters decide to push it.

Phinix1

STEVIL wrote: »

Can you provide any factual basis for ESO having locked 90% of this content into crates?

I am extremely curious as to how you arrived at this figure.

It has been many months since any new costumes were added to the straight up cash shop. Now they have added more vanity and cosmetic items to the gambling casino in one patch than in the last year of flat-rate legit micro transactions.

It may not be 90% of everything they have ever done since the release of the game over 2 years ago, but if present trends are any indication, it is very doubtful there will be many new cosmetic RP or convenience items that don't go straight to the gambling casino.

Time will tell.

Nerouyn

Phinix1 wrote: »

By all accounts, ESO was doing well with sales and community support back when the subscription model was still going (better than it is now).

ESO was most likely a massive financial flop. As a private company we don't know how exactly how much it cost to develop but it was likely over $100 million. It's a massive game and fully voice acted.

They've never released subscription numbers. Always a bad sign.

They blatantly lie about the total number of players, eg. quoting figures for accounts / boxes sold. We know that it's been heavily discounted many times and many players (myself included) have picked up a second just for additional storage, which is in desperately short supply.

The sub was dropped. You don't do that if the game is "doing well with sales". And ESO wasn't. Remember that financial success is measured as a function of revenue v development and ongoing maintenance costs.

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

The biggest issue is that MMOs traditionally have not been successful. At least until WoW came around a lot of MMOs either didnt make a lot of money or barely paid off the cost of development before going into a life-support cycle with subscriptions. Some of them would eventually roll out some Expansions but still the games would mostly survive off of the subs to pay for servers to stay on.

I think you have that backwards. There were far fewer MMOs before WOW but they tended to be successful, eg. EQ, Anarchy Online, City of Heroes, Lineage. A few notable duds like Star Wars Galaxies, but nearly everything SOE touched turned to dust which is why Sony eventually sold them off.

Post WOW and WOW's phenomenal success, there was an MMO gold rush as everyone tried to replicate their success. But WOW already had the market cornered and many developers made the foolish mistake of thinking better graphics = better game, completely failing to understand that most people don't have gaming rigs. WOW was successful in no small part because of the game's very modest system requirements.

Nearly all failed miserably. Many of them with gargantuan budgets. Several, like ESO, failing despite being attached to very successful IPs.

In ESO's case I think their failure can be pinned to a few key mistakes. The game is very solid - visually impressive, good Skyrim style combat, great story and voice acting. But it's dragged down by:

1) Classes. Not only are they are a major break from the hugely successful single-player games (naughty!) but the plan seemed to be to lure in players from other MMOs who might be more accustomed to classes and then revert to a more Elder Scrolls style system with spellcrafting. A plan too clever by half. Star Wars Galaxies demonstrated that major and fundamental changes like that can kill a game.

And it was a stupid plan. Skyrim has sold over 23 million copies. That's an enormous existing fan base to whom they should have been appealing with ESO's design. Not just with classes but everything.

2) Stupid, annoying, bleeped up money driven design. Rather than working on the simple and reliable assumption that people will play a game that's fun, they decided to be too clever by half in other ways which also backfired.

Eg. horse feeding. Let's make all players log in every character once a day to feed their horse for half a year. Cos that's not at all tedious. Players also need to wait months to a year to get into PvP or go in with disadvantages for psycho gankers to exploit. I'm guessing the intention was to make this a painful grind which once behind them would make players more likely to stick around. And then later the cash shop gave players a way to pay their way around the pain.

Eg. nightmarish inventory management, especially if you craft. Let's make all players have to use half or more of their characters to manage their inventory and spend half an hour a day doing that. How bleeped up is that? Oh but they probably did this to force players into joining guilds so they could avail themselves of guild banks.

Eg. no auction house. Again almost certainly to force players to join guilds.

3) Splitting the game into 3 factions and limiting race choice by it, unless you pre-ordered. Not only have many players been burned by other pre-orders but ESO was decidedly un-Elder Scrolls like with eg. classes so it was not a safe bet.

So this left players - especially those coming to the game with existing guilds or friends - having to compromise, i.e. not playing your preferred race. Unhappy players are less likely to enjoy themselves and stick around.

And charging extra to play Imperials was just madness. Potential players could look at that single decision and justifiably judge the company very unfavorably for it. Unfortunately many other decisions they

deevoh1991

To be a good business you have to beat your competitors
To beat your competitors you need extreme amounts of money generation and players
To Achieve this you have to occasionally rely on cheap and greedy tactics.
They know how to target and milk their audiences effectively even though it may seem exploitative. They are a corporation and not an NGO .
I have not paid a single penny on the game besides buying the game CD and will also try not to in the future.
I am grateful atleast it isn't a monthly subscription based games, and it's only optional (for the moment).
I really want some of those fancy ass mounts and costumes ;~; Alas.

kevlarto_ESO

It is not just the mmo industry, look at Cell Phone and Cable companies, they always treat new customers better than the ones that have been loyal for years, they all want NEW MONEY, I guess the old money is not good enough any longer /shrug

Gaming I think they start with a plan and depending on how greedy the company is and what percentage of profit is acceptable, depends on how well or bad the player base will be treated, once things start to go south or bean counters start running the company is when all the spin starts to take our attention away from the negative aspects that are going around, they give us a turd wraped in gold and tell us it is the best thing since sliced bread but it is still a turd.

Plus the market is different today than it was in the days of EQ, UO, and all the great old classic mmo's, even since wow released the market is different, there use to be no such thing as free to play or buy to play games, there were no app games for phones or tablets, traditional mmo's today have to cut a path in a new world with an old product, and try to find a balance of paying customers to free playing customers, I miss the days that all there were was sub based games I prefer them, in all the ones I played I always felt it was worth the money spent. The markey is saturated these days with mmo's and different types of mmo's in the past we only had mmo/rpg now we have mmo/fps moba's, and I am sure a a few more I can't think of.

To me free to play is the biggest lie ever sold to players, in most f2p games you will need to spend far more than 14.99 a month to get a gaming experience worth playing even for free.

raglau

IMO a lot of the responsibility for this situation is the fault of customers.

Customers always want, in fact seem to expect, something for nothing. They seem to think that they can get 24/7 access to a game for nothing (F2P) and have it be premium quality, no outages, bug-free, developed with new content frequently delivered forever. We see the same mentality with other industries. Customers seem to think they can stream all the music in the world for free on Spotify et al, then moan that the music industry is a mess and all we get is derivative pap. Customers want to eat meat 7 days a week for £2 a chicken, then moan at the conditions that chickens are raised in.

So you get an IP owner and they need to get the most ROI from their asset (e.g. a game). At first when the game is new and lots of people are on board paying a sub, they can get their target £££ from the initial development asset. As time goes on and the customers dissipate, start demanding more for less (see above), the market gets saturated, newer and better ideas arrive etc. The company needs to make up the shortfall, so they do this with quick to market, rapid ROI, low TCO, modular updates. Some of these can be high quality DLC, but because of the nature of the customer ^^^, that is risky and costly for them. Crown crates and similar tat appeal to the idiot that exists in many customers, with far less risk of comeback due to bugs, whining about quality etc. etc.

But customers do hold all the power. If people don't like that garbage, just don't buy it, cut off the developer's money supply from tat. It's that simple.

Unfortunately, customers are in many ways, a bunch of bloody idiots.

Korah_Eaglecry

Phinix1 wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

After WoW made it big a lot of investors thought to cash in because they thought MMOs had finally broken into the mainstream. And to an extent they have. But they still have a very high rate of failure amongst other genres. Or at least they have yet to topple the MMO king that is WoW in terms of success. Or even coming close to it in terms of population and popularity.

...

So the company is going to need to look for ways to make that profit. And whats become popular, because its actually successful, are these scam boxes. Either by selling actual pay-to-win items in these boxes or in the case of ZOS cosmetics. People are willing to pay more because they want to rub it in that even in a digital environment, there is a difference between them and the rest of the population. That there is some sort of pecking order even in these games. That money should still impact your experiences in the digital world. Its absurd but it seems to have really caught on.

If the goal was to replicate the success of WoW, then why not LEARN from what made WoW a success?

WoW never in over 10 years introduced pay to win items. They never abandoned the subscription model for cash shop micro-transaction and psychological marketing scams. They NEVER resorted to arguably unethical gambling boxes to fleece addict personality types.

So, if the almighty investor with their one true currency are looking to cash in on WoW's example, what makes them think resorting to such cheap underhanded tactics and things WoW NEVER DID is the way to do it?

It would be like trying to cash in on the success of Pablo Picasso by selling smut magazines. It makes no rational sense. I am forced to conclude then that these hypothetical "investors" are irrational or mentally deluded people.

Furthermore, it seems these people you describe, the target audience of these scams, the ones that spend ridiculous amounts of money just to rub it in people's face how much "better" they are than everyone else, are totally missing the point just as badly as the MMO producers chasing profits through manipulation rather than understanding better examples.

If someone goes to Vegas and blows an entire month's earnings in a splurge of gambling and indulgence, do people line up to praise them, tell them "hey man, way to go, I was really impressed by the way you fed those slot machines." No, because feeding slot machines is no actual accomplishment.

The whole point, of art or a hobby or life in general, is to do something worth doing, something that you love, something that will bring you joy and a sense of accomplishment. That is the idealistic spirit that led to WoW becoming such a success.

How can one chase the success of idealism through methods that embody the opposite?

If they honestly believe society is too stupid to know the difference then it is they who are fools.

What have these poor souls with their mountains of wealth and demands for respect actually done? What do they have to show for themselves? What have they actually CREATED? Is there anything that is actually OF THEM, from them, by them? Or is that why they seek to compare themselves to others by some meaningless standard like the quantity of paper they accumulate. The idea that one could simply purchase things that others have made and pass them off as their own achievements.

Human beings all seek meaning and even recognition. But recognition for having lots of money alone, with no consideration as to HOW they came to have it? It will not bring them the satisfaction they seek. It will not bring them true happiness and contentment, because underneath it all THEY will know it is a lie.

I have no problem with people spending money, but that attitude you describe is a real problem for our species, one that has led to the fall of more than one great civilization in our history. It is an attitude born of jealousy and a lack of self respect, and the real irony is that if they spent half the energy actually creating something that was theirs instead of chasing recognition through acquisition and comparison, they would not feel so empty that they needed to make enemies of everyone around them.

But part of our species' genetic memory is still bound to endless war and competition. It is a brutal scar left on the very soul of our history that is not so easily erased by a few centuries of technological progress. Which is why the human race, no matter how high it climbs, will always be one false step away from sliding right back into the Dark Ages that came so naturally to them.

Riejael wrote: »

Gaming has become a legitimate hobby. The way I see it, the ones who pay 20, 30, or even $500 for a unique mount are just enthusiast like in any other hobby. I mean look at cyclists. There are some who aren't even professional riding around on $5,000 to $10,000 bikes with helmet and clothing being about $1000 or more on its own.

No one is questioning spending money on one's hobby. What is in doubt is the motive and the attitude. People who seek to buy things to elevate their social status by comparison of material wealth to others and then try to claim it as a "hobby" are probably fooling themselves.

A true hobby is it's own reward. You don't have to be the only one to posses it or lord it over others or demand people respect you for it. Such behavior is of our lower nature and born of jealousy and greed and calling it anything but what it is just sounds like an excuse.

But I have a feeling that a lot of people throwing money at gambling boxes don't care about lording exclusive items over others or flaunting their status as if wealth alone meant something. I suspect many are victims of the marketing and unable to resist the temptation which is why such practices are totally unethical in my opinion. They prey on addiction-prone personality types.

I still have yet to hear a clear explanation why these business gurus believed they were chasing the success of WoW by resorting to underhanded casino tactics that WoW never indulged in.

MakoFore wrote: »

dude- yeah u make some valid points about mmos and gmes- but zos is not one of them

- subscriber free
- free content- one tamriel- more free content coming with the housing - who else is giving us that?

sure there are alot of things that need fixing- but in terms of give and take- Zos is doing okay in terms of economy. they got a lot of things to fix- but in no way are they ripping anybody off.

I agree, ESO is far from the worst. But to see them go down this path... It is just sad. The gambling crates were like a greased swan dive straight over the slippery slope.

I guess we'll just have to see how far the purse-string puppet-masters decide to push it.

Because WoW is a fluke. It didnt need to go pay to win because it more than hit the population threshold for it to be a major success. If you havent been paying attention, ZOS was absolutely going to try and mimick WoW with ESO. But were t-boned by Bethesdas success with Skyrim. Had ESO been as popular as WoW was when it launched and things had gone great. We would not be sitting here talking about Crown Crates. Or at least theres a good chance we wouldnt be. Unfortunately that is not what happened. And ZOS was put in a position to go B2P to continue making money. And opening that door provided the way for Crown Crates.

Axoinus

A series of events have made the MMO market what it is.

1) 14.99 monthly charge for an MMO sub was the norm years ago. This was fine when there were only 2-3 MMOS to choose from. But as more MMOS jumped into the market, they had to find a way to pull subscribers away from whatever their core MMO was.

2) Then they introduced the F2P MMO. I believe that Guild Wars started this trend. The market then saw that this model could be profitable.

3) Swipy phone games came along and introduced the concept of pay to win. Again, the market saw that this model was successful as well.

4) BAM! Pay to win MMOS were born (Or should I say became more mainstream). But they saw that the longevity wasn't there. So they looked at other ways of pulling money from people.

5) So here we are today. Companies are still working to find other creative ways to pull funds from people without pissing off other people. And we have what we have today.

Elsonso

Phinix1 wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Wait, people don't work for free?

That has nothing to do with what we were talking about.

We were talking about the moral ethics of [snip] a business model driving customers away.

Thanks for the insight though.

It was some darned insightful insight, yes sir.

It is completely the point of what "we" are talking about, actually.

Modern games like ESO are expensive and a constant drain on resources, and the studios do not work for free. This is part of a much larger equation that leads to where we are today.

You are painting this as an "evil" studio problem, being all money grubbing and focused on the bottom line, but there is an "evil" player side that is contributing to this just as much. This player demands top quality features, delivered back to back, constantly. There can be no waiting. Every feature has to be there, or else. This is all very expensive to deliver, and to make matters worse, players don't want to pay for games. The worst part of F2P is that players get the idea that games should be free. So, these players want a free game that delivers an expensive, and constantly updated, gaming experience.

People don't work for free.

So, faced with players who are high maintenance, but don't want to pay for anything, the studios have resorted to these business models in an attempt to generate more revenue from the players that are not like this. While it is true that not all games, and not all studios, need this model, some of them do. Where things don't work out, the studio closes the game and moves on, if it is able to. Where things do work out, the studio can afford to do continued development on current, and future, projects.

The problem with ZOS is that they set a target at "average" and build from there, over time. This is cost savings on their part, taken to an extreme, in my opinion. We get partially finished stuff, with the promise to come back and work on it in the unplanned future.

The problem with many Players is that they expect everything, often times for no charge, and they are unwilling to accept anything less. Even if they like something, they will stop paying for it until they get what they want, if they were ever willing to pay for it at all.

Between ZOS delivering average stuff, which is often lacking in commonly expected features, and players who demand a game that has those features, or they take their money elsewhere, we have arrived at where we are today.

ZOS needs revenue from players not so quick to snap the purse closed to pay for features demanded by those who do.

The bottom line is that this is a much wider issue than you paint in your OP. As a herd, the players are also at fault. Player actions have consequences. When players refuse to pay for games, or when they decide they want to play a game but not pay for it, or when they are quick to jump game to game to get at the green grass, they contribute to this.

Phinix1 wrote: »

If the goal was to replicate the success of WoW, then why not LEARN from what made WoW a success?

Not possible. WoW does not have to introduce Pay To Win because they are still above critical mass. They got to critical mass at a time when it was much easier to reach that point. Putting it bluntly, Blizzard was there with WoW at the right time. Today, WoW is mainly riding on habit and just the sheer mass of people and the main goal is to just hold it together.

I am fairly sure that the Pay To Win discussions happened in Blizzard when the news was all about the decline of WoW subscriptions. They probably toyed with the prospects, and might still do that, but wisely decided to address the problem by not telling people if there was a problem. If WoW subscriptions get too low, and they want to continue the game, they will introduce whatever they need to introduce to being in the revenue.

Tandor

I don't personally see in ESO/ZOS any of the "criminal scam" type nonsense that is thrown about on the forum, and find a lot of the criticisms not only offensive to the developers but also to those players whose only sin is to want to pay for things they enjoy.

People need to recognise that there's no such thing as a single business model that remains suited to a game for its entire life. They also need to acknowledge that a game that begins with subscriptions and then adds in a B2P option while retaining subscriptions is not F2P. They also need to drop the growing sense of entitlement pervading society in general and gaming in particular these days and accept that if they want to play a game then one way or another they're going to have to pay for it. I'm glad there are multiple ways of doing that these days, and I welcome every source of revenue that developers are able to attract in order to fund the ongoing development and survival of their games.

Wolfshead

@Phinix1

Have only been "success" for simple fact that when it come out many country at sametime made internet alot cheaper and fast at sametime + you have reminder that if have been for Warcarft games WoW would mostlike be so popular beside WoW today have lost alot of player and beside if should talk about company that is milking there game blizzard do really good job of it.

Just look at them the have a subscribe base which you need to pay every month to play the game and the have even cash shop ingame heck the add like 3 button so you come cash in char screen, button in game and also 3rd one you found when press ESC so yeah we can learn alot from blizzard how not mess up there game.

WoW was good game all way to end of lich king expansion even if people now say that last one is good and look like WoW on it way back to what it was i personal have say WoW gold years was Vanilia version where WoW still was a MMORPG and not just a other MMO out there.

ESO have there problem and we have cash shop but still to me ESO feel alot more like a MMORPG then any other MMO out there and honest if really take time and listen to all storys the NPC are tell you some are really good and well made this ofc just my personal view.

danno8

Because crown store stuff is easy and cost effective.

Actual content like land masses, dungeons, expansions, dlc's and stuff is hard and risky.

Compounded with the fact that I believe a large portion of mmo players are fickle and easily get into the "This game sux!" mindset and move on to the next big thing very quickly, and it makes it an easy choice for companies (especially corporate owned ones) which content to focus on.

Dagoth_Rac

They tried the honest, subscription-required method for a year. Game population was painfully low because no one wanted to be a paying customer. If people had been willing to pay the $15/month, we would not be in this situation. I think the current situation is more about ZOS reacting to how players are willing to spend money than any kind of evil plot by ZOS.

raglau

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

They tried the honest, subscription-required method for a year. Game population was painfully low because no one wanted to be a paying customer. If people had been willing to pay the $15/month, we would not be in this situation. I think the current situation is more about ZOS reacting to how players are willing to spend money than any kind of evil plot by ZOS.

Well, it's a two-way thing - although I do agree ZOS are reacting to the customer base, see my post above. I was in beta then paid a sub for a year, but the customer service from ZOS was so insultingly bad that I dropped the sub and left the game until about 2 months ago. If ZOS are going to charge AAA price for the base game and then a monthly sub, they need to provide AAA service. But of course, ZOS customer service is a complete joke and always has been.

However, and I'm making a generalisation here, customers expect the world on a plate for nothing, and in ZOS's efforts to meet these completely unrealistic expectations, they have taken the path of least resistance/quickest ROI, and delivered F2P tropes like the crates et al. So it's a joint endeavour that drives down quality; unrealistic consumer expectations and companies doing what they always do: short-changing the customer.

I am back in ESO and I think it's better than it ever has been, so I bought a 6 month sub, but by god, anytime I have to deal with the imbeciles in Support, I really feel like cancelling that sub on principle alone.

Wifeaggro13

Phinix1 wrote: »

This is something I have noticed and attempted to understand for years. Since this is the ESO forum I will use this game as an example, but it is by no means the only one or even the worst offender.

For the past year we have seen the gradual, seemingly inevitable push to cash shop whale milking creeping into this once great game, becoming more and more overt and offensive and culminating in the recent addition of casino crate gambling preying on the "gotta catch 'em all" OCD/addict mindset.

It seems MMO's are destined to move (in a matter of only a couple years or less where before it would at least take 3-4) towards a business model much more like a criminal scam artist or a drug pusher than a legitimate, healthy customer/producer relationship.

Customers are increasingly treated like the enemy, or like something to be manipulated and in an increasingly disdainful, even openly hostile way, in order to manufacture some psychological victim/dependency condition that (they apparently think) will result in them buying more of what the MMO producers are pushing.

Here is what I don't understand:

History has shown people will buy whatever is available. So, what makes MMO producers so sure this is the ONLY model that would sell? Why not focus on producing quality and convenience and let the product speak for itself? Why not run an honest business?

By all accounts, ESO was doing well with sales and community support back when the subscription model was still going (better than it is now). Then they decided to push into the B2P/cash shop micro-transaction model.

I could sort of write this off at the time as "well, it is just the fad of the moment, everyone is doing it, and the suits fresh out of business school ZOS probably hired must have read it in their corporate indoctrination bibles that this was the way it must be done. It was an example of a general lack of vision, passion, and inspiration in the industry, but not necessarily of malice or corruption.

Then they started cutting back on content and milking "limited time only" mount reskins for $30-$50 dollars a pop and yes, this did seem greedy and offensive. In fact many people left the game because of it and the direction it was going. The writing was on the wall, or so it seemed to many. Yet the most die-hard fans and supporters stuck it out hoping it was just a stumble on the road to a better business model...

Of course that turned out not to be the case.

Then you have games like Black Desert and so many others with outright pay-to-win in the cash shop, unfair advantages, cheap 1-shot mechanics selling real-money resurrection items to avoid XP loss built right into the game, even PAID CHARACTER RESPECS. ESO's move to preying on gambling addicts is just another example of this corruption.

But here's the thing.

Statistics show that masses of players LEAVE THE GAME when this starts getting offensive, which is why the B2P/F2P model has traditionally come to be seen as a sign of the beginning of the end, something MMO companies do to milk whatever remaining customers they have for all they're worth before they shut down the servers or sell off their assets to some B-rate management company that basically keeps the cash milk going with the minimum possible new content.

It seems like MMO producers have become increasingly desperate, short-thinking, and paranoid. They mechanically march to the same generic model, doing what everyone else does, thinking it must be "safe" (because how could so many failed games be wrong, right?).

The thing is, the more these companies push this corrupt and offensive BS, the more they chase away their fans, their customers. This is the self-fulfilling prophesy that leads to the very financial dire straights which fear of led them to pursue such tactics in the first place.

Why is it so difficult to realize that the reason business is suffering is BECAUSE of these cheap tactics, that they are the REASON people are leaving, NOT what will bring them back.

Is it something in our postmodern psychology? Some need to rage against the concept of organized morality (read: the modern anti-religion movement gone systemic and malignant and attacking anything that isn't overtly greedy or outright evil just for the sake of it), another "safety in numbers" excuse?

Is it a modern cookie jar scenario? A compulsory need to do the wrong thing on purpose, even if it hurts you?

In many ways, MMO companies remind me of shallow, clueless, teenagers rebelling for the sake of rebelling but not having the foggiest notion what they are doing it for, yet stubbornly pushing forward on a wave of pure vanity even when the results are only hurting themselves.

I guess there isn't much wisdom to go around these days.

We always wondered what would happen when the Nintendo generation finally grew up to be the man in charge. I guess this is it?

I am disappoint.

It's the corporatized genre. Unfortunately Development teams are dictated to what they do and how they build when you have big publishers that care nothing but initial sales and quarterly revenue this is what happens.

Truthfully when Paul sage and Nick Konkel left the writing was on the wall. cut the high dollar talented MMO designers and star pumping out the frivolous content . Its not really Matts fault either he is just running a show thats dictated. though i like to blame him.

MMO's used to make you earn your Power, Max level was an accomplishment and unique items that effected your charcters power were rare and hard to aquire. And they were tradeable. It took a long time for markets to get saturated and the individual player controlled the economy. not Faux stock market guilds.

The main issue is as consumers we have been gobbling up what ever garbage they put out. I buy far less Video games now then i did post 2008 im voting with my wallet now. id rather throw my oney away at a kick starter game that is at least trying to make a game then polishing a turd to shine and selling it as gold

svartorn

This is capitalism. Honesty isn't profitable.