More health versus more Stamina.. Civil debate, please!

GreenhaloX · December 2016

As a 2H Nord DK, I've played around with different builds and currently settled with a 5-piece DKS base, Agility set and Skoria monster set. My health is 30k and Stam at around 29k, and I am a dps for dungeons and trial. So, I read more stamina adds up to more wpn dam, but I favor the higher health for survivability. So, I am asked often if I am a tank or at times, why do I have "high health?" True, usually only Tanks have more health than I, but Tanks normally have lower wpn dam/dps. Also, majority of the toons running around, you can clearly see their health are in the medium of 15-16k. I have also seen plenty of 561 CPs running around with health bar around 12-13k and not much others hitting the 20k mark with food buff in dungeons and trials.

To me, 12-20k health is low. I found the medium with my current health/stam distribution and still have almost 3700 overall non-proc wpn dam. This gives me survivability from not getting one-shot from vet dungeons or trials. My dps is fine.. I'm sure not the best, but I fair well with 16k-29k from a single strike to 33-40k with combo/animation cancelling, which is very sustainable in dungeons and trials. I'm sure I can increase my stam and get higher wpn dam, but I would have to sacrifice 10k of my health to increase my stam. I have ran plenty of vet dungeons and trials, even vet trials, and aside from dungeons like vet Fungal or vet CoS where a boss traps you and if your teammates doesn't interrupt in time, anyone can get 1-hit killed; other than that, I don't die much.

I find myself more times reviving my fallen comrades in vet dungeons and trials. 561 CP or not, my view is they are being killed easier because their health are below 20k health. Most vet bosses can one-shot you. In the midst of the fight in a vet event, you can get one-shot if you don't put up some protective shield/barrier. With my health being at 30k, a strike that would one-shot my groupmates still leaves me with some health to be able to use vigor or igneous shield so I can rapidly regen; thus, being able to revive others.

Other than tanks, I have not seen other dps with health close to mine. I'm not willing to lower my health to the 20k in risk of getting one-shot in a vet event. If I am killed, I can't fight and have to wait on being revived. Granted, I have gone through many with nobody dying once, but in others, I believe one of the factor of success is me not being killed and being able to revive my fallen comrades; particularly in vet dungeons without a tank. So why so many less than positive comments and view on dps with higher health bar?

pattyLtd · December 2016

Even on my tank i only have 32k health and that's with food buff.

My sorcs dps's have either around 16k or 19k buffed with food depending on what jewelry i'm using if i need more health they equip healthy willpower rings.

Now it's each their own and if you enjoy and feel comfortable playing with that much health as a dps then who am i to claim your doing it wrong. However in my experience vet dungeons are usually alot harder if one of the dps has health over 20k

Voxicity · December 2016

I guess it depends on what you need. I survive perfectly fine on 17k but if you can't then sure it's better to put more into health because a dead dps is no dps. However you won't be able to pull anything close to what a good full stamina dps would

idk · December 2016

First, have as much health as your comfortable with. It's your game.

Second, all that's really needed is base health +what you get from food (health and stam food, blue).

This is for PvE.

Experienced players running trials add no health through attributes, enchantments or traits on jewelry. With max CP they end up with less than 17k health unless they're running TBS and then they have above 17k health.

They do just fine but they are also experienced at avoiding the damage they need to avoid.

Basically, as much health as you need to survive and that should become less over time.

Some people may say a dps needs a minimum of 20-22k health and while that may be what they need, the information I posted in this thread is correct.

Fallen_Ray · December 2016

Im actually intrigued by your build's description. If you're willing to share details on armor type and gear sets you're using I'll be grateful as I'm Trying to put together my own version of a tank/dps and I've seen various builds that have given me some ideas. But yours intrigues me the most.

If not I can understand

Asmael · December 2016

My dps is fine.. I'm sure not the best, but I fair well with 16k-29k from a single strike to 33-40k with combo/animation cancelling

Tick'd me.

Damage from a single strike, e.g Wrecking blow, is a pretty bad indication of your actual DPS. I take it you're on console, so no access to addon, so RIP finding out what your actual DPS is. In fact, the whole character sheet is extremely misleading when it comes to knowing how much damage you are dealing.

On a side note, yes, maximum stamina increases your overall damage, as 1 weapon is roughly ~10.46 stamina. Supposing you can trade health & stamina evenly (1:1), that means that trading 10k health would be equivalent to losing about 956 weapon damage.*

Depending on your CP count, having higher health is actually the right move, since you're missing mitigation from Hardy / Elemental defender. being unaware of your CP count, try to lower your health once you're more comfy with the content at hand, and (if applicable) you have the right CP count. Respeccing CPs depending on the trial you're doing is an easy way to improve your survivability as well, and makes any content in game doable with as low as 16k HP (altho I wouldn't recommend less than 17k).

* Definitely not an exact value, since we're not taking into account various multipliers such as Undaunted mettle, Fighter's guild passives...

GreenhaloX · December 2016

pattyLtd wrote: »

Even on my tank i only have 32k health and that's with food buff.

My sorcs dps's have either around 16k or 19k buffed with food depending on what jewelry i'm using if i need more health they equip healthy willpower rings.

Now it's each their own and if you enjoy and feel comfortable playing with that much health as a dps then who am i to claim your doing it wrong. However in my experience vet dungeons are usually alot harder if one of the dps has health over 20k

How would that be harder when a dps is over 20k? So would you be saying a dps with over 20k is not putting out enough dps? I get this vibe too. How much dps would be enough then? Is 30-40k dps per not enough? Granted, this is not including other arsenal also being used, such as arrow barrages, traps, ultimates.. etc., or how much damages are other dps under 20k putting out?

I'm just wondering if many who are not 2H DK are really underestimating how brutal a 2H DK can be with the greatsword skillsets.

SolarCat02 · December 2016

My healer runs 16.2k health right now.

She is occasionally one-shot in dungeons, but not often, and it's generally on the final boss of the former normal dungeons due to the random untauntable boss attacks (and the damage ranges from 23k-150k depending on the dungeon).

I have figured out how to avoid some of them now (such as the Spindleclutch I Daedric spider, don't stand in front of her, and roll dodge if she turns towards you) but I am still sorting out others (Banished Cells I and Wayrest Sewers I, if anyone knows the tells for those please message me!) so still room for improvement.

As you get more comfortable with the mechanics and staying out of bad places you will also be able to drop your health and increase your damage.

pattyLtd · December 2016

I wasn't attacking you or assuming you don't do enough damage i only said that it's what i have experienced in times when i was doing the pledges with a dps that had high health for a while.

I'm not sure about the numbers i'm on console and can only base things on the combat text that pops up which sometimes seems all over the place. If you steadily do between 30k - 40k dps on a character with 30k health that i'm a little jealous

Iselin · December 2016

Everyone but the tank should be just fine in the 17-19K range. Instead of getting mine from gear, I tend to just use my 4:1 relevant stat : health ratio that I use for leveling and just leave it like that.The blue food buff gets it to that level.

That way I don't have to fret about my gear and just go 100% either magicka or stamina with that.

Junipus · December 2016

SolarCat02 wrote: »

My healer runs 16.2k health right now.

She is occasionally one-shot in dungeons, but not often, and it's generally on the final boss of the former normal dungeons due to the random untauntable boss attacks (and the damage ranges from 23k-150k depending on the dungeon).

I have figured out how to avoid some of them now (such as the Spindleclutch I Daedric spider, don't stand in front of her, and roll dodge if she turns towards you) but I am still sorting out others (Banished Cells I and Wayrest Sewers I, if anyone knows the tells for those please message me!) so still room for improvement.

As you get more comfortable with the mechanics and staying out of bad places you will also be able to drop your health and increase your damage.

I assume you run without a tank?

Spindle you use shields - harness or dampen is fine.
BC you use shields.
Wayrest is the same thing, or hold block and have your HoTs down when she reappears.

GreenhaloX · December 2016

Fallen_Ray wrote: »

Im actually intrigued by your build's description. If you're willing to share details on armor type and gear sets you're using I'll be grateful as I'm Trying to put together my own version of a tank/dps and I've seen various builds that have given me some ideas. But yours intrigues me the most.

If not I can understand

Sure.. there is nothing special here or anything to hide. It's not really geared towards a tank build, though. With what I have now, is what I have came up with to balance survivability and decent wpn dam and dps output and resistance. It's all heavy set - Skoria helm and shoulder (infused), rest of armor are 5-piece Dreugh King Slayer (DKS; all infused, but belt is divine), with 3-piece agility (each have max wpn dam enchant). I have the tri-Prismatic glyph on all my infused so to aid in getting more health. Also, as a Nord/DK, you get 3 or 6% more to health. The DKS is all heavy-based, so no choice there, but I tried using medium Skoria, but my spell/physical resistance went lower. So, I kept the Skoria piece as heavy to maintain the higher spell/phy resist. I love that Skoria. It proc alots, adding extra good dps. First drop that Scourge earth from bow, then the trap, then wrecking blow, and if Skoria proc, I'm sure I'm doing well over a combine 70-80k overall total damages per attack combo. This is not including dropping the Arrow Barrage ultimate, which is brutal in itself.

Even with playing around with adding a medium piece, I saw my health meter went down. The undaunted mettle didn't make any difference. I played around with combining medium Hunding Rage, Clever Alchemist and even Vicious Oph, and I would still use about 300-500 wpn dam with health and spell/phys resistance going down. I was disappointed, particularly with the VO all medium set.

As far as piling up the overall wpn dam, with a greatsword, you get the 6% (I believe, maybe 5%) extra wpn dam. I used dawn breaker on my front bar ultimate which gives extra 5% wpn dam, deadly hunter and the trap which gives combined extra 6% wpn dam. The rest on my front bar are crit rush and igneous shield. My back bar is the bow skillsets where my main ultimate I use is the Arrow Barrage. Also, the 5-piece DKS gets Major Brutality which gives 20% extra wpn dam at all times, plus Major Expedition of 30% speed after a kill. So, with this, I don't use Rally (which in itself give Major Brutality and major healing). Can't use 2 Majors. Plus, I use Vigor for my regening needs.

Main area of the constellation I focused on are resistance and extra damages: Hardy - 63; Elemental - 61 and Mighty- 100 with sporadic CPs amongst the others. I can't remember the other CP distributions without logging online.

I think the only thing that will make this build better is to have a sharpened Maelstrom greatsword and bow, which, of course, still pursuing both.

KingYogi415 · December 2016

You won't be doing vet trials like that, but should be fine for vet dubgeons.

I tank vet dungeons in 20k health. With 40k stam i can block vigor and dodge roll all I want.

And you should get used to playing with less health. All vet dungeons have 1 shot mechanics that dont care how much health you have.

GreenhaloX · December 2016

pattyLtd wrote: »

I wasn't attacking you or assuming you don't do enough damage i only said that it's what i have experienced in times when i was doing the pledges with a dps that had high health for a while.

I'm not sure about the numbers i'm on console and can only base things on the combat text that pops up which sometimes seems all over the place. If you steadily do between 30k - 40k dps on a character with 30k health that i'm a little jealous

Ha ha. Oh, no. I was not thinking you were attacking me in any way. I was just curious myself if others are thinking a dps with over 20k health are not really putting out the dps/damages that they perceived or want a dps to put out. So yes, I was pondering what dps meter would be enough then to satisfy those who question that a dps with over 20k health does not have enough dps/damage output. I was wondering then, would 50k and over dps/dam output from a single strike or attack would then be good enough?

SquareSausage · December 2016

Well for a reasonable discussion, quite simply you're health is way too much for a dps and why use DKS when you have access to igneous weapons?

Obviously its up to you how you play no-one can stop you but you seem to be fixated on survivability to the extreme when you can easily survive with a 2/3 of what you have and produce way more dps with more stam and in medium armour.

Destruent · December 2016

GreenhaloX wrote: »

pattyLtd wrote: »

I wasn't attacking you or assuming you don't do enough damage i only said that it's what i have experienced in times when i was doing the pledges with a dps that had high health for a while.

I'm not sure about the numbers i'm on console and can only base things on the combat text that pops up which sometimes seems all over the place. If you steadily do between 30k - 40k dps on a character with 30k health that i'm a little jealous

Ha ha. Oh, no. I was not thinking you were attacking me in any way. I was just curious myself if others are thinking a dps with over 20k health are not really putting out the dps/damages that they perceived or want a dps to put out. So yes, I was pondering what dps meter would be enough then to satisfy those who question that a dps with over 20k health does not have enough dps/damage output. I was wondering then, would 50k and over dps/dam output from a single strike or attack would then be good enough?

it's not about a single damage tick, it's about your overall damage per second in a long fight. You can get this value by installing a damagemeter (only pc/mac, FTC, Lui and so on) or using bloodspawn to test your damage. Let a tank spot it and then kill it solo while messuring the time you need.

e.g.: wall of elements usually does ~65k dmg for me, vamps bane a little bit less than 60k, sweeps average at ~40k. But still those numbers don't really tell you my DPS. It's usually between 45k...55k (bossfights), but can still be higher or lower depending on the fight/group.

to your question: the more HP you have, the less dmg you do, bc you miss out on stam/wepdmg/crit (depending on sets and so on). You also loose a lot of dps by not wearing medium. Usually you should be fine with ~17k...20k HP. it's usually a problem with your movement, CP or group if you still die.

SolarCat02 · December 2016

Junipus wrote: »

SolarCat02 wrote: »

My healer runs 16.2k health right now.

She is occasionally one-shot in dungeons, but not often, and it's generally on the final boss of the former normal dungeons due to the random untauntable boss attacks (and the damage ranges from 23k-150k depending on the dungeon).

I have figured out how to avoid some of them now (such as the Spindleclutch I Daedric spider, don't stand in front of her, and roll dodge if she turns towards you) but I am still sorting out others (Banished Cells I and Wayrest Sewers I, if anyone knows the tells for those please message me!) so still room for improvement.

As you get more comfortable with the mechanics and staying out of bad places you will also be able to drop your health and increase your damage.

I assume you run without a tank?

Spindle you use shields - harness or dampen is fine.
BC you use shields.
Wayrest is the same thing, or hold block and have your HoTs down when she reappears.

@Junipus I am specifically talking about the untauntable attack where the boss randomly fires a massive attack at one person before returning back to the tank.

Spindleclutch my group figured out the pattern, but Banished Cells and Wayrest don't seem to have that pattern. In Banished at first we thought it was based on distance from the boss, but I was hit for 23k whether I was directly on top of the boss or on the far side of the room. Tank hasn't spotted a tell yet. Wayrest, she usually does it right after her other windup attack, so we avoid those by holding block, but sometimes it's also random in her rotation and we haven't spotted the tell yet.

If shields are the only answer, how does stamina do it? Despite what the forums suggest, Shuffle is not a 100% chance to avoid it.

GreenhaloX · December 2016

KingYogi415 wrote: »

You won't be doing vet trials like that, but should be fine for vet dubgeons.

I tank vet dungeons in 20k health. With 40k stam i can block vigor and dodge roll all I want.

And you should get used to playing with less health. All vet dungeons have 1 shot mechanics that dont care how much health you have.

But here's the things, I've ran vet trials.. vMol, vHrc, vAA and even vMA and vDSA with this build. Granted, there are some good tier players (561 CP) with health around 20k and less, and they are able to keep from getting one-shot because they know the mechanics and done a lot of the trials, but people makes mistake, and when that occurs, they get killed because of the lower health. Nothing wrong with it. I know some people have problem with someone getting killed in a dungeon or trial. I don't. That is what soul gems are for. Die, I revive you. When things go haywire, I'm usually the last one standing and usually I die from trying to revive someone and during which the boss and his whole damn mobs converge on me.

Again, not bashing lower health because there are top players with health around 18-20k, and yes anyone can get one-shot from a vet boss or an aoe with 50k or 100k and over damages. Yes, it is being experienced with doing many of the vet dungeons and trials to know to roll/dodge and avoid those aoe.

Granted you don't really need a tank for normal dungeons and you can get away with it in a normal trial or vet dungeons if you have all good dps and healer; done plenty of those without a tank. However, for vet trials and vDSA, a tank will make things smoother. That is what I love about comboing heavy attack and wrecking blow. When the Tank has the boss, I can do that combo all day without using stam, because I am constantly getting stam back and dishing out double damages output.

I'm not saying I'm the best player or the top dpser in any way. Rather, people shouldn't just judge others on their build, but rather on sustained performance. Right now, the cap is 561 CP and that is what we are all seeing (and yes, you can't use any more CP beyond that), but somebody has come a long way to reach 561 and it doesn't stop increasing beyond 561. So, ideally, a 561 toon has to know what he or she is doing and have done plenty of trials and dungeon. So, I don't know how someone with over 20k is not fit for a vet trial.

caperon · December 2016

I thank god i play on PC, that wonderfull world where you can use addons to see your real dps.

Dubhliam · December 2016

Always go full stamina.
Also, never go full ***.

There is no debate to be had.

AzuraKin · December 2016

GreenhaloX wrote: »

As a 2H Nord DK, I've played around with different builds and currently settled with a 5-piece DKS base, Agility set and Skoria monster set. My health is 30k and Stam at around 29k, and I am a dps for dungeons and trial. So, I read more stamina adds up to more wpn dam, but I favor the higher health for survivability. So, I am asked often if I am a tank or at times, why do I have "high health?" True, usually only Tanks have more health than I, but Tanks normally have lower wpn dam/dps. Also, majority of the toons running around, you can clearly see their health are in the medium of 15-16k. I have also seen plenty of 561 CPs running around with health bar around 12-13k and not much others hitting the 20k mark with food buff in dungeons and trials.

To me, 12-20k health is low. I found the medium with my current health/stam distribution and still have almost 3700 overall non-proc wpn dam. This gives me survivability from not getting one-shot from vet dungeons or trials. My dps is fine.. I'm sure not the best, but I fair well with 16k-29k from a single strike to 33-40k with combo/animation cancelling, which is very sustainable in dungeons and trials. I'm sure I can increase my stam and get higher wpn dam, but I would have to sacrifice 10k of my health to increase my stam. I have ran plenty of vet dungeons and trials, even vet trials, and aside from dungeons like vet Fungal or vet CoS where a boss traps you and if your teammates doesn't interrupt in time, anyone can get 1-hit killed; other than that, I don't die much.

I find myself more times reviving my fallen comrades in vet dungeons and trials. 561 CP or not, my view is they are being killed easier because their health are below 20k health. Most vet bosses can one-shot you. In the midst of the fight in a vet event, you can get one-shot if you don't put up some protective shield/barrier. With my health being at 30k, a strike that would one-shot my groupmates still leaves me with some health to be able to use vigor or igneous shield so I can rapidly regen; thus, being able to revive others.

Other than tanks, I have not seen other dps with health close to mine. I'm not willing to lower my health to the 20k in risk of getting one-shot in a vet event. If I am killed, I can't fight and have to wait on being revived. Granted, I have gone through many with nobody dying once, but in others, I believe one of the factor of success is me not being killed and being able to revive my fallen comrades; particularly in vet dungeons without a tank. So why so many less than positive comments and view on dps with higher health bar?

30k health is pointless in a 4 man or trial for dps.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · December 2016

I am not going to force the meta down your throat, but basically, this is not a damage build. The hit of a single strike is almost completely meaningless to a discussion about Damage Per Second. There is absolutely nothing wrong with padding your health a little bit, especially when learning, but you are absolutely sacrificing a ton of damage with health that high and wearing 5 heavy armor. For a little perspective, you have as much health as our Tank does in HM trials.

If it works for you, great, but you will never be competitive with a build like this. I am sure you could clear and or be carried through just about anything, but consider it might be the later. I could very easily put on gear like this and run VMOL with my raid group. With so many DCs, we have 11 manned just about everything in there. I am sure I could do it without dying, the question is, other than resing people, what am I contributing? For 4 man stuff, it doesnt matter. Often the lines between roles can become a little blurry. If you can do this while holding aggro and be a tank/DPS hybrid, great. If you are doing this in addition to someone in full tank gear, well your group DPS is going to suffer hard. For raids, no competitive group is going to let you in with a build like that. No matter what you do, you wont pull as much damage as the guy next to you.

My advice: Find a medium armor set you like and swap out DKS. Then find some daggers and drop the 2H. Then start scaling your health back a bit at a time and stop when you start dying. Or play how ever you want. Just dont be surprised if there is pushback.

idk · December 2016

GreenhaloX wrote: »

pattyLtd wrote: »

Even on my tank i only have 32k health and that's with food buff.

My sorcs dps's have either around 16k or 19k buffed with food depending on what jewelry i'm using if i need more health they equip healthy willpower rings.

Now it's each their own and if you enjoy and feel comfortable playing with that much health as a dps then who am i to claim your doing it wrong. However in my experience vet dungeons are usually alot harder if one of the dps has health over 20k

How would that be harder when a dps is over 20k? So would you be saying a dps with over 20k is not putting out enough dps? I get this vibe too. How much dps would be enough then? Is 30-40k dps per not enough? Granted, this is not including other arsenal also being used, such as arrow barrages, traps, ultimates.. etc., or how much damages are other dps under 20k putting out?

I'm just wondering if many who are not 2H DK are really underestimating how brutal a 2H DK can be with the greatsword skillsets.

@GreenhaloX

A stam dk can break 40k in trial bosses without vMA weapon and not break a sweat. That's with DW & bow.

disintegr8 · December 2016

As a DPS you need as much health as you are comfortable with, there is no right or wrong with one exception: if the healer is using all of their efforts to keep you alive at the expense of others, you need more health. The other thing you need to be able to do is survive long enough without heals to res the healer if they die.

IMO you need more health when using the grouping tool because you have no idea how good or bad the rest of the group is. DPS are queuing more and more as tanks and healers are more and more likely to be part time DPS, so you can't count on not having aggro or receiving full time heals.

My DPS all have 19-20k health when buffed but I am always using group finder or 2 manning dungeons with my friend.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · December 2016

GreenhaloX wrote: »

pattyLtd wrote: »

Even on my tank i only have 32k health and that's with food buff.

My sorcs dps's have either around 16k or 19k buffed with food depending on what jewelry i'm using if i need more health they equip healthy willpower rings.

Now it's each their own and if you enjoy and feel comfortable playing with that much health as a dps then who am i to claim your doing it wrong. However in my experience vet dungeons are usually alot harder if one of the dps has health over 20k

How would that be harder when a dps is over 20k? So would you be saying a dps with over 20k is not putting out enough dps? I get this vibe too. How much dps would be enough then? Is 30-40k dps per not enough? Granted, this is not including other arsenal also being used, such as arrow barrages, traps, ultimates.. etc., or how much damages are other dps under 20k putting out?

I'm just wondering if many who are not 2H DK are really underestimating how brutal a 2H DK can be with the greatsword skillsets.

I am not sure you understand what DPS actually is. You say, 30-40k DPS, not including other skills, that doesnt make any sense. You are confusing DPS with what your wrecking blow hits for. They are not the same thing. DPS is your total damage over a fight with all your skills, divided by the number of seconds in said fight.

In terms of "what is enough" that depends on your group. What is required for a VMOL speed run and what is required to complete Wayrest Sewers are not even close to the same thing. You could be the best Player in the world, but with a build like you are describing, you DPS is going to be laughable when compared to even an average player running a Meta build. If you like they way it works, then awesome. Play however you want. If you are wondering why you are getting pushback, well you have some serious flaws if your goal is to be a competitive damage dealer.

The question is not whether you can get through content on your build, the question is how would it stack up to another build.

1. Every attribute point you put into health is a point that you didnt put into stamina. Not everyone can be comfortable running with 64 into stam, but in any event, you are leaving a lot of damage on the table. Assuming you don't die, every point you put into stamina is more damage.
2. If you are a stamina player, you will do more damage with medium armor than with heavy. It's no secret, read the tool tip.
3. DW>>>>>>2H for DPS in PVE. 2H is great in PVP, but its just not as good as DW in PVE. DW gives access to Rapid Strikes (excellent spam skill and works with VMA weapons), Rending Slashes (excellent DOT), Steel Tornado (best AOE stam ability). 2H doesnt compare from a damage standpoint. Wrecking blow hits hard, but its a huge windup. Brawler is a joke compared to steal tornado, Crit rush and Rally are not required as a DPS. You should not use gap closers in group content, and you should get you buffs/heals from potions and you healer. The only remotely useful thing on the 2H line for PVE DPS is your execute, but that is not enough to outweigh everything else.

GreenhaloX · December 2016

Good feedback, all. I really appreciate it. Seems pretty much all that have contributed so far are seemingly non-2H users, which is fine. Would be good to also get some feedback from those who are 2H users, though. I'm pretty much content and satisfied with being a 2H. I've always been a 2H for any other games of similar contents to ESO. I've done plenty of trial runs where no one was complaining and we finished fine. I don't think or perceive that I need or was ever carried through any run. I believe I held and can hold my own and contribute just fine as a 2H in a trial or any other group contents. Yes, I do get pushback in some group, but fine, no need for me to be a part of that group then. I move on and get with another group and we push on. It is just a game.

Again, we completed all the pledges today in all vet levels, and a couple trial runs and some of my mates were 561 CP flawless conquerors, stormproof and former emperors, and such. Their health were all below 20k. Again, I'm resing them after they die. That's my contribution for having higher health. I'm able to withstand more hits from the boss that would one-hit others and able to revive the fallen, while I'm still throwing out damages.

As for dps language, I'm not too scientific. Dps, damage.. same verbage to me. Respectfully for others' opinions and views, if dps/damage output from a 2H is laughable, it is their rights of opinion. However, I still think non-2H users or those who never been a 2H, are underestimating an experienced 2H user.

Just for perspective for 2H: Crit rush is an automatic crit strike each time and can generate 13-16k damage per hit. The rearming trap increases crit dam by 12% and can generate 15-16k. Maxed out wrecking blow can generate 23-29k per hit. If combo with a heavy attack, you generating mid-30s and higher. Arrow barrage can generate 15-16k.

So, for an attack at a boss.. first, I throw out the arrow barrage, then crit rush in for a strike, then immediately throw down the rearming trap, followed in by a combo of heavy attack and wrecking blow. This one revolution occurs within a few seconds, if even, and combined, it can total 70-80k or more damages; just from this one revolution, which is sustainable, particularly if a tank has the boss. I do five of this combo, let's say 80k x 5 = 400k damages output. I do 10 revolution and dish out about 800k and so on. This is how I look at dps/damage ratio, in grunt's terminology. So, if this is not good enough for some, then I don't know what to tell you. I move on, solo, or play with group that focus on just enjoying the game and not worry too much about how much damages can you put out or what armor or weapon you have on.

All and all, I not downplaying or underestimating DW or other class or builds. I think it is good to have lots of dps DW and sorc in a trial group, but also to have a 2H or two; particularly one with higher health, other than a Tank.

Again, sorry, long-winded, but I appreciate all feedbacks thus far, and thank you for keeping the feedback constructive (at least most) and civil.

raj72616a · December 2016

i am not going to be civil, i am going to be scientific (if that's what you call about being aware of actual dps)

using 2H you miss out :
1. ~40 weapon damage iirc
2. one item slot for set bonus, which could mean 1~3k dps less depending what items you can lay yout hand on
3. great DoT skills on DW line
4. great AoE steel tornado on DW line
5. great DoT skills on Bow line

having 30k health, you miss out 15k stats which could be put into stam, and that translates into 1434 weapon damage.

so no, you are not doing fine in dps role. but you are great as an offtank. sadly no group ask for offtank, most of them just want more real dps.

2H has good heal from Rally, and resistance buff from the ultimate, and easy shield generation from Brawler, so it is a lot of survivability. if you do need that much survivability and health, it's fine. after all, the dead has zero dps. you dont die, then the regular 15k health dps wont have to stand still to rez you in their paper thin defense and stop sapping life from mob.

IronCrystal · December 2016

Don't spout numbers of each individual hit as that's a terrible indication of your dps.

Go do a standard dps test then come back with the numbers.

Most common option: Go to spindle clutch II on vet with a tank and maybe a healer with no buffs (just healing springs or bol) and time how long it takes to kill the Bloodspawn (2nd boss but you can crouch and skip first boss).

As long as no one else is attacking (tank is just holding block and healer throws shards or however they just don't do damage), just take the max hp of bloodspawn and divide by the time it took to kill him.

No one is going to believe you are doing 30+ dps on just 2H.

cpuScientist · December 2016

GreenhaloX wrote: »

Good feedback, all. I really appreciate it. Seems pretty much all that have contributed so far are seemingly non-2H users, which is fine. Would be good to also get some feedback from those who are 2H users, though. I'm pretty much content and satisfied with being a 2H. I've always been a 2H for any other games of similar contents to ESO. I've done plenty of trial runs where no one was complaining and we finished fine. I don't think or perceive that I need or was ever carried through any run. I believe I held and can hold my own and contribute just fine as a 2H in a trial or any other group contents. Yes, I do get pushback in some group, but fine, no need for me to be a part of that group then. I move on and get with another group and we push on. It is just a game.

Again, we completed all the pledges today in all vet levels, and a couple trial runs and some of my mates were 561 CP flawless conquerors, stormproof and former emperors, and such. Their health were all below 20k. Again, I'm resing them after they die. That's my contribution for having higher health. I'm able to withstand more hits from the boss that would one-hit others and able to revive the fallen, while I'm still throwing out damages.

As for dps language, I'm not too scientific. Dps, damage.. same verbage to me. Respectfully for others' opinions and views, if dps/damage output from a 2H is laughable, it is their rights of opinion. However, I still think non-2H users or those who never been a 2H, are underestimating an experienced 2H user.

Just for perspective for 2H: Crit rush is an automatic crit strike each time and can generate 13-16k damage per hit. The rearming trap increases crit dam by 12% and can generate 15-16k. Maxed out wrecking blow can generate 23-29k per hit. If combo with a heavy attack, you generating mid-30s and higher. Arrow barrage can generate 15-16k.

So, for an attack at a boss.. first, I throw out the arrow barrage, then crit rush in for a strike, then immediately throw down the rearming trap, followed in by a combo of heavy attack and wrecking blow. This one revolution occurs within a few seconds, if even, and combined, it can total 70-80k or more damages; just from this one revolution, which is sustainable, particularly if a tank has the boss. I do five of this combo, let's say 80k x 5 = 400k damages output. I do 10 revolution and dish out about 800k and so on. This is how I look at dps/damage ratio, in grunt's terminology. So, if this is not good enough for some, then I don't know what to tell you. I move on, solo, or play with group that focus on just enjoying the game and not worry too much about how much damages can you put out or what armor or weapon you have on.

All and all, I not downplaying or underestimating DW or other class or builds. I think it is good to have lots of dps DW and sorc in a trial group, but also to have a 2H or two; particularly one with higher health, other than a Tank.

Again, sorry, long-winded, but I appreciate all feedbacks thus far, and thank you for keeping the feedback constructive (at least most) and civil.

That's not a real way to test your actual DPS, alsoany here who are telling you dual wield used two hander when it was more even.

So just do this with a buddy, go to VET wayrest sewers I and have the tank taunt the boss then have a stopwatch and see how much time it takes to kill the boss solo just you doing damage. Then divide the health of the boss by the time. If you run out of stamina before it dies, then use heavy attacks or whatever you do for sustain. But keep the clock ticking as you also need to see if you can sustain.

sneakymitchell · December 2016

GreenhaloX wrote: »

As a 2H Nord DK, I've played around with different builds and currently settled with a 5-piece DKS base, Agility set and Skoria monster set. My health is 30k and Stam at around 29k, and I am a dps for dungeons and trial. So, I read more stamina adds up to more wpn dam, but I favor the higher health for survivability. So, I am asked often if I am a tank or at times, why do I have "high health?" True, usually only Tanks have more health than I, but Tanks normally have lower wpn dam/dps. Also, majority of the toons running around, you can clearly see their health are in the medium of 15-16k. I have also seen plenty of 561 CPs running around with health bar around 12-13k and not much others hitting the 20k mark with food buff in dungeons and trials.

To me, 12-20k health is low. I found the medium with my current health/stam distribution and still have almost 3700 overall non-proc wpn dam. This gives me survivability from not getting one-shot from vet dungeons or trials. My dps is fine.. I'm sure not the best, but I fair well with 16k-29k from a single strike to 33-40k with combo/animation cancelling, which is very sustainable in dungeons and trials. I'm sure I can increase my stam and get higher wpn dam, but I would have to sacrifice 10k of my health to increase my stam. I have ran plenty of vet dungeons and trials, even vet trials, and aside from dungeons like vet Fungal or vet CoS where a boss traps you and if your teammates doesn't interrupt in time, anyone can get 1-hit killed; other than that, I don't die much.

I find myself more times reviving my fallen comrades in vet dungeons and trials. 561 CP or not, my view is they are being killed easier because their health are below 20k health. Most vet bosses can one-shot you. In the midst of the fight in a vet event, you can get one-shot if you don't put up some protective shield/barrier. With my health being at 30k, a strike that would one-shot my groupmates still leaves me with some health to be able to use vigor or igneous shield so I can rapidly regen; thus, being able to revive others.

Other than tanks, I have not seen other dps with health close to mine. I'm not willing to lower my health to the 20k in risk of getting one-shot in a vet event. If I am killed, I can't fight and have to wait on being revived. Granted, I have gone through many with nobody dying once, but in others, I believe one of the factor of success is me not being killed and being able to revive my fallen comrades; particularly in vet dungeons without a tank. So why so many less than positive comments and view on dps with higher health bar?

My man here and if this doesn't help put more dots on ur bar. That's how I DPS I switch my pierce armor (ransack) to rearming trap DPS is really good since I did that. Use votiale armor for better healing instead of ingenious shield. I invest in health recovery to self substain the heals. I try two gander but it doesn't have much dots or damage but u can use cleave and wrecking blow spam for DPS with leap. Like it's hard to find a extra skill bar when I use it but if u know which sill to put then u will have good DPS and self survival.

https://youtu.be/vemr8LNY2y8

Asmael · December 2016

IronCrystal wrote: »

Don't spout numbers of each individual hit as that's a terrible indication of your dps.

Go do a standard dps test then come back with the numbers.

Most common option: Go to spindle clutch II on vet with a tank and maybe a healer with no buffs (just healing springs or bol) and time how long it takes to kill the Bloodspawn (2nd boss but you can crouch and skip first boss).

As long as no one else is attacking (tank is just holding block and healer throws shards or however they just don't do damage), just take the max hp of bloodspawn and divide by the time it took to kill him.

No one is going to believe you are doing 30+ dps on just 2H.

Well, not in the OP's case considering his rotation, but... That's very doable with 2h/bow.

https://youtu.be/E6J3ByXkr5g

(For the love of Sithis, don't use this video as an excuse to use 2h/bow, there's so much wrong and so many things to change that it screams "WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?!?!!1")

But yeah, Wrecking Blow is really "meh" when it comes to sustained DPS.