Do not buy Crown Crates!!!

JimT722 · December 2016

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

I like collecting motifs as well. You say you don't know how you would feel if motifs end up in there. What about people who like collecting cosmetics? They were hit first with the switch to buy 2 play. Now again with gambling crates.

My point exactly. Completionism is a form of addiction. Being frustrated by not being able to "have them all" up to a point where you (generic here, not you personally) cannot cope with it and not be happy with having 95% of "it" is not healthy. At this point, I believe leaving the game is the right thing to do. And that is what I would do if I was feeling, one way or the other, "forced" to buy crates.

Everything you said makes sense. My question/s, I guess to further the discussion is.... Having wrote what you did, Is ZOS legally responsible to shoulder the burden of having to essentially worry about and anticipate the actions of these said "completionists"?

Has ZOS not met its obligations to the public and its consumers by releasing this product of theirs? Where should this line of "within reason" be drawn in the sand before a video game company attempts something such as crown crates? Is the answer no because someone out there somewhere has an "addiction" so no one, not even those that might enjoy something like crown crates be able to see a system like this implemented?

SWTOR has a collections tracker so you can keep track of what you have collected from the rng crates. So I would think to design an interface like that, completionists aren't rare and are targeted by such a scheme. We also have the same marketing director that worked on that here. Isn't that great!

Knootewoot · December 2016

JimT722 wrote: »

I like collecting motifs as well. You say you don't know how you would feel if motifs end up in there. What about people who like collecting cosmetics? They were hit first with the switch to buy 2 play. Now again with gambling crates.

Indeed. But even with the crown store (and getting free crowns as you sub) I would buy motifs/mounts if I liked them. But not from the gambling crates as I will not know how much I have to spent.

If those items where in the normal crown store I would have bought some of them.

anitajoneb17_ESO · December 2016

JimT722 wrote: »

I collect Argonian themed cosmetics and armor sets. Shadows of the Hist with style parlor in July got me excited for my main which is obviously Argonian. I wanted Amberplasm from SotH. I fell in love with rooster frills and enveloping scales. I tried them out on pts and made it my computers wallpaper. Crown crates were not announced then, everything was direct purchase. Of course I assumed I would be able to buy it.

Even when crown crates were announced I assumed they wouldn't put anything they had shown prior in them. Red Pit Wolf. Been outside Anvil stables since May 31st and heavily anticipated. It also ended in the crates. Crown crates were not announced until mid August.

I would still have been very angry about crown crates because they are unethical, but I would have remained playing if it's implementation had been better. The people running this show must be brain dead.

So you happen to be in the situation where you were sure that the item you wanted would be available at some stage (I don't consider crates as making items "available"), and it appears that you were wrong : the item is not, and perhaps never will be, available.
That's just bad luck.

ESO is my first MMO (and I'm not too much of a gamer anyway, even with other types of games), and the first thing I had to learn upon starting ESO was : everything and anything can change and likely will change without warning. Stats are changed, sets are changed, cooldowns are changed, animation prioritization are changed, availability and drop rates are changed, recipes are changed, mobs are changed, mechanics are changed, rules are changed. My entire character, playstyle, achievements and rankings can (and will) be made worthless overnight or over time, because things are changed, buffed, nerfed, whatever. Change in this context is not even a necessity for progress or making the game better. It's the number one way of player retention, far above DLCs and expansions. Having us redo, relearn, re-grind... over and over, and make previously played hours artificially worthless is the very nature of MMOs, it's what makes them "endless".
Rules don't change in a single player game - or I can choose myself what changes I want, using mods. MMOs do change the rules, and don't ask me if I like it or not.
That's why I never take anything for granted in ESO. I refrain from any kind of completionism (completionism is by definition not compatible with "neverending" or "ever-expanding"... ). I would never have started spending money for anything on a collection, and even more so on the assumption something would be available the way I want or expect it.

In your case, ESO changed something and you're not happy with that change. Just bad luck.

Recremen · December 2016

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

I like collecting motifs as well. You say you don't know how you would feel if motifs end up in there. What about people who like collecting cosmetics? They were hit first with the switch to buy 2 play. Now again with gambling crates.

My point exactly. Completionism is a form of addiction. Being frustrated by not being able to "have them all" up to a point where you (generic here, not you personally) cannot cope with it and not be happy with having 95% of "it" is not healthy. At this point, I believe leaving the game is the right thing to do. And that is what I would do if I was feeling, one way or the other, "forced" to buy crates.

Everything you said makes sense. My question/s, I guess to further the discussion is.... Having wrote what you did, Is ZOS legally responsible to shoulder the burden of having to essentially worry about and anticipate the actions of these said "completionists"?

Has ZOS not met its obligations to the public and its consumers by releasing this product of theirs? Where should this line of "within reason" be drawn in the sand before a video game company attempts something such as crown crates? Is the answer no because someone out there somewhere has an "addiction" so no one, not even those that might enjoy something like crown crates be able to see a system like this implemented?

@Publius_Scipio

As I've said before, you are assuming that I am talking about some legal argument for why gambling boxes are bad/scammy, but this is simply not the case. Nor is legality the only metric for measuring bad behavior. What you are trying to do is establish a legal basis for your argument, and you can have it, but that doesn't mean other metrics of wrongdoing are false or inconsequential.

To show what I mean regarding legality not being the only metric for wrongdoing, let us take an easy example, like infidelity in a romantic relationship. Cheating on your romantic partner is only grounds for legal action in a small selection of niche cases, such as relates to marriage or custody of children. The vast majority of the time, the only consequences to infidelity are social. People will call you a cheater, your romantic partner will probably leave you, but you will suffer no legal ramifications. It is the opinion of those around you that you are a cheater, even though you have broken no law. The accusations are still valid because you met all the socially-constructed definitions for cheating, and you will pay for it in lost social capital.

It is by that same line of reasoning that I call the gambling boxes a scam. It is not currently known to meet any legal definition of a scam (though apparently there are already state and national legal challenges to these types of activities), but it meets the socially-constructed definition for many people. What you seem to be trying to do is invalidate those socially-constructed definitions by using the basis of legality, but this was already accounted for a priori. So what we are trying to say is that if you want to argue against our accusations that these are a scam, you need to actually engage the underlying reasons we call them a scam, such as their exploitative design, opaque reward probabilities, how the use of RNG guarantees that some people will not receive what they want even if they spend huge sums of money, etc.

You can feel free to try to explain why you think they aren't intentionally designed to exploit behavioral issues, or point out where the reward probabilities were posted officially and accountably, or try to overturn mathematical fact by demonstrating how probability is fake and everyone actually gets whatever they want, but I'm not personally holding my breath on any of that.

anitajoneb17_ESO · December 2016

AuldWolf wrote: »

This is one of the lessons learned by Champions Online. They introduced crates and what happened? No one bought them.

Really ?
I'm not familiar with the general MMO world and history.
All I heard here was how successful those boxes have always been in every game which has implemented them, and how it shifted the focus of development on boxes instead of the actual game, because of the money drained by the boxes.
So which is it ?

JimT722 · December 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

I collect Argonian themed cosmetics and armor sets. Shadows of the Hist with style parlor in July got me excited for my main which is obviously Argonian. I wanted Amberplasm from SotH. I fell in love with rooster frills and enveloping scales. I tried them out on pts and made it my computers wallpaper. Crown crates were not announced then, everything was direct purchase. Of course I assumed I would be able to buy it.

Even when crown crates were announced I assumed they wouldn't put anything they had shown prior in them. Red Pit Wolf. Been outside Anvil stables since May 31st and heavily anticipated. It also ended in the crates. Crown crates were not announced until mid August.

I would still have been very angry about crown crates because they are unethical, but I would have remained playing if it's implementation had been better. The people running this show must be brain dead.

So you happen to be in the situation where you were sure that the item you wanted would be available at some stage (I don't consider crates as making items "available"), and it appears that you were wrong : the item is not, and perhaps never will be, available.
That's just bad luck.

ESO is my first MMO (and I'm not too much of a gamer anyway, even with other types of games), and the first thing I had to learn upon starting ESO was : everything and anything can change and likely will change without warning. Stats are changed, sets are changed, cooldowns are changed, animation prioritization are changed, availability and drop rates are changed, recipes are changed, mobs are changed, mechanics are changed, rules are changed. My entire character, playstyle, achievements and rankings can (and will) be made worthless overnight or over time, because things are changed, buffed, nerfed, whatever. Change in this context is not even a necessity for progress or making the game better. It's the number one way of player retention, far above DLCs and expansions. Having us redo, relearn, re-grind... over and over, and make previously played hours artificially worthless is the very nature of MMOs, it's what makes them "endless".
Rules don't change in a single player game - or I can choose myself what changes I want, using mods. MMOs do change the rules, and don't ask me if I like it or not.
That's why I never take anything for granted in ESO. I refrain from any kind of completionism (completionism is by definition not compatible with "neverending" or "ever-expanding"... ). I would never have started spending money for anything on a collection, and even more so on the assumption something would be available the way I want or expect it.

In your case, ESO changed something and you're not happy with that change. Just bad luck.

I don't collect everything Argonian, just things I could see myself using. I'm not a completionist. My experience from crates in other games in addition to the implementation of the crates here has destroyed all confidence in this company. Many items shouldn't have been exclusive. Just thing shown after the announcement.

Publius_Scipio · December 2016

Recremen wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

I like collecting motifs as well. You say you don't know how you would feel if motifs end up in there. What about people who like collecting cosmetics? They were hit first with the switch to buy 2 play. Now again with gambling crates.

My point exactly. Completionism is a form of addiction. Being frustrated by not being able to "have them all" up to a point where you (generic here, not you personally) cannot cope with it and not be happy with having 95% of "it" is not healthy. At this point, I believe leaving the game is the right thing to do. And that is what I would do if I was feeling, one way or the other, "forced" to buy crates.

Everything you said makes sense. My question/s, I guess to further the discussion is.... Having wrote what you did, Is ZOS legally responsible to shoulder the burden of having to essentially worry about and anticipate the actions of these said "completionists"?

Has ZOS not met its obligations to the public and its consumers by releasing this product of theirs? Where should this line of "within reason" be drawn in the sand before a video game company attempts something such as crown crates? Is the answer no because someone out there somewhere has an "addiction" so no one, not even those that might enjoy something like crown crates be able to see a system like this implemented?

@Publius_Scipio

As I've said before, you are assuming that I am talking about some legal argument for why gambling boxes are bad/scammy, but this is simply not the case. Nor is legality the only metric for measuring bad behavior. What you are trying to do is establish a legal basis for your argument, and you can have it, but that doesn't mean other metrics of wrongdoing are false or inconsequential.

To show what I mean regarding legality not being the only metric for wrongdoing, let us take an easy example, like infidelity in a romantic relationship. Cheating on your romantic partner is only grounds for legal action in a small selection of niche cases, such as relates to marriage or custody of children. The vast majority of the time, the only consequences to infidelity are social. People will call you a cheater, your romantic partner will probably leave you, but you will suffer no legal ramifications. It is the opinion of those around you that you are a cheater, even though you have broken no law. The accusations are still valid because you met all the socially-constructed definitions for cheating, and you will pay for it in lost social capital.

It is by that same line of reasoning that I call the gambling boxes a scam. It is not currently known to meet any legal definition of a scam (though apparently there are already state and national legal challenges to these types of activities), but it meets the socially-constructed definition for many people. What you seem to be trying to do is invalidate those socially-constructed definitions by using the basis of legality, but this was already accounted for a priori. So what we are trying to say is that if you want to argue against our accusations that these are a scam, you need to actually engage the underlying reasons we call them a scam, such as their exploitative design, opaque reward probabilities, how the use of RNG guarantees that some people will not receive what they want even if they spend huge sums of money, etc.

You can feel free to try to explain why you think they aren't intentionally designed to exploit behavioral issues, or point out where the reward probabilities were posted officially and accountably, or try to overturn mathematical fact by demonstrating how probability is fake and everyone actually gets whatever they want, but I'm not personally holding my breath on any of that.

I am not trying to invalidate anything. All you have written boils down to it is your definition, the definition others also hold that it is a scam. I am saying that I don't see this as a scam and others also hold the same opinion as I do.

But every time ZOS does something, many of those who feel aggrieved (for a myriad of personal reasons) come here on these forums and disrespect ZOS. Which I think is done in bad form. I'm all for constructive criticism.

In my world, these crown crates are not even intrusive or in anyone's way. And I would be very surprised that many adults here, playing this M rated game, do not know the consequences of taking a shot at a slot machine for a hat or mount or whatever. ZOS can publish the odds and say it is 50/50 a chance to win. In fact someone will play the game and lose everytime with %50 chance of winning and will come here to attack ZOS.

That is why the odds being posted to me are meaningless. Who here would be ok with 50/50 and then spend money on crates? Is 50/50 odds that appease most here? I think the core of the issue is that people want the items because they want them. It's as simple as that. And direct purchase is what they want. Now the issue I see with that is ZOS's game, ZOS's items, ZOS's decision to implement crown crates. Play at your own risk, we all understand this right? No matter the odds, it's a slot machine.

I personally can't buy this as a scam.

anitajoneb17_ESO · December 2016

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

I like collecting motifs as well. You say you don't know how you would feel if motifs end up in there. What about people who like collecting cosmetics? They were hit first with the switch to buy 2 play. Now again with gambling crates.

My point exactly. Completionism is a form of addiction. Being frustrated by not being able to "have them all" up to a point where you (generic here, not you personally) cannot cope with it and not be happy with having 95% of "it" is not healthy. At this point, I believe leaving the game is the right thing to do. And that is what I would do if I was feeling, one way or the other, "forced" to buy crates.

Everything you said makes sense. My question/s, I guess to further the discussion is.... Having wrote what you did, Is ZOS legally responsible to shoulder the burden of having to essentially worry about and anticipate the actions of these said "completionists"?

Has ZOS not met its obligations to the public and its consumers by releasing this product of theirs? Where should this line of "within reason" be drawn in the sand before a video game company attempts something such as crown crates? Is the answer no because someone out there somewhere has an "addiction" so no one, not even those that might enjoy something like crown crates be able to see a system like this implemented?

1. Question : are crown crates legal ? undoubtedly, yes, in the current state of the law. I trust ZOS for having researched this extensively.

2. Question : should the law(s) be adjusted to prevent things like crown crates ? HHmmm... Maybe. Not sure. Depends. I've seen many cases where governmental attempts to protect people have in fact resulted in everyone having less freedom and noone being protected, so I'm cautious with that.

3. Question : should companies (ZOS in the present case) have a code of ethics and not have introduced crown crates ? Definitely, yes, in my opinion. But, while all companies all claim to be ethical, in fact very few are, and some of them are totally unethical, while the majority of companies are spread inbetween those two extremes. I welcome and prioritize ethical companies but I don't expect companies in general to be ethical. Specifically, I don't expect MMO developers to be ethical, because the whole genre is based upon triggering addictive habits in players. If people are subject to addiction, they should not only refrain from touching the crown crates, but also from playing MMOs altogether - in my opinion.

It's nearly impossible to draw a line (as you say) so that this line is fair to everyone, preserving freedom while protecting the vulnerable. The ones who could have drawn that "fair line" - because they have all the data about players' behaviour - would have been ZOS. They did it, to a certain extent, because the crown crates could have been much worse. They could also have drawn the line much higher and not have implemented them at all. They could also have implemented them better and fairer by publishing the drop rates...

Now the 4th level for "drawing the line" remains, and that's each of us. Each of us is free to buy - or not buy crown crates. That is, in my opinion, the most reliable way to draw the line : you draw it where you want, according to your liking, disliking, financial means and potential vulnerabilities. You're your own best protection. And ultimately, the only one, since, in the case of crown crates, level 1, 2 and 3 do NOT make that choice for you nor protect you.

Waseem · December 2016

one day the cry of crown crates will stop
same day eso goes free to play to all the universe

Nyx2 · December 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Nyx2 wrote: »

After reading this I thought at least some of it must've gotten through. But oh what a slap in the face the next page was.

All the painstaking effort to elaborate the issue as simple as possible, patiently going through every aspect to make it abundantly clear and avoid any kind of confusion or distraction. And the only response is that crown crates aren't "monetary value". None of the arguments are discussed, objected or acknowledged. It just goes full stop.

All that just to read insults or more posts from people like @Publius_Scipio who troll under the guise of "free speech" to distract from your arguments and spread ignorance. You can provide facts, arguments or try to engage in discussions: it won't do anything, much less will you hear any pro crate arguments. They have no reason to acknowledge this as scam or ask for more reasonable prices because they don't purchase crown crates themselves. It is tiring so I'm not going to bother with this anymore. Good luck to the rest.

You make it sound as if anti-crate people were making the effort to *educate* or *enlighten* the pro-crate crowd or "don't care don't buy" crowd, as if their opinion was "the plain truth", while it's only their opinion. And since you want elaborated argumentation, here's mine :

In cases like this, free market ideals are inapplicable because a key requirement--that there exist interchangeable substitutes--doesn't really exist. At least not for people who care deeply about the game. So, tell me, what options do they have, except to complain and hope that ZOS will listen?

The bolded part is where it doesn't fit. "Caring deeply about the game" is used here as a justification for the absolute NEED of those items. But the truth is that you don't NEED those items, you just WANT them - and no matter how badly you want them, it's only a want, not a need. "Caring deeply about the game" in this case sounds like a disguise for actually not being able to cope with the frustration of not having something you want.

As to the hope that complaining will help and ZOS will listen... well if that makes you feel better, fine. But if you truly hope that things will change, you're probably wasting your time. ZOS chose to implement crates, because they can, and because it brings money. Making money is a legitimate goal of any company. Sure, they could have chosen a different ethical positioning - but they didn't. Those decisions are made in places and at levels where, believe me, forum feedback doesn't count at all.

As to the statement that "all they need to do is to make the items also available for direct purchase"... that would mean more people choosing direct purchase and less people buying crates, which means less income (even taking into account the people who would buy directly but never via crates). This is about money, not game design. In my view, the crown store isn't even part of the game, just like the souvenir shop in a museum isn't part of the museum.

That you get less value out of the crates than you would from buying consumables directly which nobody even wants? A fact. That you don't have to sit by and give consent to shady business models - also a fact. People admitted that these practices would make them quit the game if this was done to aspects they consider important. But then make the double standard of not only accepting something that would make them quit, they support it because it doesn't affect them. You may think it's pointless but to keep people uninformed about their odds, about how little value they get out of gems is only making it worse.

"Need" and "want", what's the distinction you're trying to make? What I quoted was on point on that. If you want something bad enough that it makes you leave the game then I'd say that is a need. I can cope with not having many things but they will add more and more content into the crates. Ultimately even I will be frustrated by constantly being taunted with items I want but knowing that there is no way to get them. And there is nothing wrong with that. If that's what we enjoy then we have every reason to complain about it. Otherwise we look for what we enjoy elsewhere. But as mentioned, many games are unique and "elsewhere" isn't easy to find. I could specify more but I'm already going in circles with this.

If people don't buy their crates ZoS has to react in some way. If they don't then fine, at least we tried which is a big difference from giving consent and supporting them. Direct purchases bring money, crown crates steal it. And was that worth all the people that cancelled their subscription? It may bring in more money for a short while but as far as I can tell they only shot themselves in the foot by losing plenty of subs. And more will follow if this continues, I assure you.

XxLone_WolfxX402 · December 2016

ZOS_PeterT wrote: »

We have removed some posts from this thread.

We would like to remind everyone to keep debates civil and constructive ,avoiding personal attacks and off topic banter.

Thank you for everyone's continued participation and feedback in the community.

I love it how everyone is mad about the crown crate's a dev come's in a talk's about how we need to keep debates simple and civilized not giving a f*** about the state the community is after the crown crate release, great communication skills with the community

Bryanonymous · December 2016

XxLone_WolfxX402 wrote: »

ZOS_PeterT wrote: »

We have removed some posts from this thread.

We would like to remind everyone to keep debates civil and constructive ,avoiding personal attacks and off topic banter.

Thank you for everyone's continued participation and feedback in the community.

I love it how everyone is mad about the crown crate's a dev come's in a talk's about how we need to keep debates simple and civilized not giving a f*** about the state the community is after the crown crate release, great communication skills with the community

That's not a dev. Forum moderator.

XxLone_WolfxX402 · December 2016

Bryanonymous wrote: »

XxLone_WolfxX402 wrote: »

ZOS_PeterT wrote: »

We have removed some posts from this thread.

We would like to remind everyone to keep debates civil and constructive ,avoiding personal attacks and off topic banter.

Thank you for everyone's continued participation and feedback in the community.

I love it how everyone is mad about the crown crate's a dev come's in a talk's about how we need to keep debates simple and civilized not giving a f*** about the state the community is after the crown crate release, great communication skills with the community

That's not a dev. Forum moderator.

ok well even the forum moderators do not give a hoot they just apparently not give a hoot about anything what is going on, obviously people would be angry/pissed at the crown crate's coming to eso so why remove posts from the forum pages when people will speak their mind anyways about the subject?

Bryanonymous · December 2016

XxLone_WolfxX402 wrote: »

Bryanonymous wrote: »

XxLone_WolfxX402 wrote: »

ZOS_PeterT wrote: »

We have removed some posts from this thread.

We would like to remind everyone to keep debates civil and constructive ,avoiding personal attacks and off topic banter.

Thank you for everyone's continued participation and feedback in the community.

I love it how everyone is mad about the crown crate's a dev come's in a talk's about how we need to keep debates simple and civilized not giving a f*** about the state the community is after the crown crate release, great communication skills with the community

That's not a dev. Forum moderator.

ok well even the forum moderators do not give a hoot they just apparently not give a hoot about anything what is going on, obviously people would be angry/pissed at the crown crate's coming to eso so why remove posts from the forum pages when people will speak their mind anyways about the subject?

A forum moderator has a specific job that they get paid to do. Their rules are set by their superiors and they merely act as the 'security guard', but even if they actually cared about the game, they do not have any authority to do anything about it. The voice between us and ZoS is Gina Bruno, the public relations rep.

XxLone_WolfxX402 · December 2016

Bryanonymous wrote: »

XxLone_WolfxX402 wrote: »

Bryanonymous wrote: »

XxLone_WolfxX402 wrote: »

ZOS_PeterT wrote: »

We have removed some posts from this thread.

We would like to remind everyone to keep debates civil and constructive ,avoiding personal attacks and off topic banter.

Thank you for everyone's continued participation and feedback in the community.

I love it how everyone is mad about the crown crate's a dev come's in a talk's about how we need to keep debates simple and civilized not giving a f*** about the state the community is after the crown crate release, great communication skills with the community

That's not a dev. Forum moderator.

ok well even the forum moderators do not give a hoot they just apparently not give a hoot about anything what is going on, obviously people would be angry/pissed at the crown crate's coming to eso so why remove posts from the forum pages when people will speak their mind anyways about the subject?

A forum moderator has a specific job that they get paid to do. Their rules are set by their superiors and they merely act as the 'security guard', but even if they actually cared about the game, they do not have any authority to do anything about it. The voice between us and ZoS is Gena Bruno, the public relations rep.

ok fair point made, but then if @ZOS_GinaBruno is our public relations rep then obviously she is also clearly not bothered by the state the community is in at the mo.

Doctordarkspawn · December 2016

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Nyx2 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

How is what I said wrong? And you just explained the free market, which is exactly what i been saying throughout this thread pages and pages back now.

@Publius_Scipio

If your local grocery store stops selling the kind of apples you like and instead sells only mystery boxes that might contain that apple variety or might contain some other variety or might not even contain apples at all, you would likely be upset. The option that the store presents to you is a take-it-or-leave-it option, and you'd probably just leave it. Go shop at another grocery store in town. That's how the free market works. Am I correct in assuming that, so far, we are in agreement?

Now, what if you're in a small town, and that is the only store that sells fruit? There's a butcher, but he sells only meat. There's a fishmonger, but he doesn't sell fruit either. What if your one and only source of fruit in this small town decides to do this? The thing about the free market is that it assumes that both sides have a full array of options. And if we're talking about buying fruit, there is almost always more than one option if you don't like what one store is doing, so you can take your business elsewhere and let the free market sort itself out.

But that choice doesn't really exist. Sure, there are other games you could go to. But they're not the same--it's not the same setting, not the same people, not the same mechanics, etc. You won't be invested in another game the same way as this one. If the only fruit seller in town starts pulling shenanigans like that, I could just stop shopping there and only buy from the butcher. They're similar (if all you care about is having something to eat), but very different and most would not consider them to be viable substitutes.

In cases like this, free market ideals are inapplicable because a key requirement--that there exist interchangeable substitutes--doesn't really exist. At least not for people who care deeply about the game. So, tell me, what options do they have, except to complain and hope that ZOS will listen?

And ZOS doesn't have to do much--if all that ZOS did was offer all the Crown Crate items up for direct no-hassle purchase, 90% of the complaints would go away. They can still keep the gambling option around, for people who think gambling is fun or people who want to try their luck at getting something for cheaper. The key problem is having things that are accessible only if you jump through ridiculous hoops with no option of direct purchase.

After reading this I thought at least some of it must've gotten through. But oh what a slap in the face the next page was.

All the painstaking effort to elaborate the issue as simple as possible, patiently going through every aspect to make it abundantly clear and avoid any kind of confusion or distraction. And the only response is that crown crates aren't "monetary value". None of the arguments are discussed, objected or acknowledged. It just goes full stop.

All that just to read insults or more posts from people like @Publius_Scipio who troll under the guise of "free speech" to distract from your arguments and spread ignorance. You can provide facts, arguments or try to engage in discussions: it won't do anything, much less will you hear any pro crate arguments. They have no reason to acknowledge this as scam or ask for more reasonable prices because they don't purchase crown crates themselves. It is tiring so I'm not going to bother with this anymore. Good luck to the rest.

I think you are terribly illogical and misguided in your thoughts regarding the matter. That's what I actually think. Your distaste and anger for the opinions here and your inability to have actually proven beyond opinion what ZOS has done wrong says it all. You and anyone else here has proven ZERO fact of any wrongdoing on ZOS's part. If there is, then you spearhead the effort to get ZOS to do whatever it is that you will find acceptable. I and many others here await your resounding success on the matter and we will all sit at a round table and eat crow. And you definitely want me to respond since you keep tagging me. You keep crusading, the general population of ESO will continue doing what it does, and that is play ESO.

T'is sad when everything you have said in this post could be applied to you. The illogical and misguided, distaste and anger for the opinions here....

What's sad is when people disrespect ZOS. What is sad is when someone disagrees with something ZOS did and labels them scammers. That's where I see sadness. Unless you don't think such a label is derogatory and that ZOS has bad intentions with crown crates. To make revenue in a way that as far as I know is legal for ZOS to do. Unless you or someone else will show that crown crates are in fact illegal, and then i will agree that ZOS is making "dirty money".

I do think that the intentions were ill, because the system was designed with ill intentions. And no matter how much you throw the 'companies exist to make money' thing out there, this does not change the fact they can still make money in a less morally reprehenseable manner.

Eitherway, it matters extremely little. You dont seem to comprehend the morality angle, or the ethics angle, and most of us dont care about the capitalism angle. So. Your talking past people, at this point. Also, yes I will continue hating ZOS for choosing this practice. Their hardworking nature does not absolve them their bad decisions and buisness practices.

The law is far from a code of morality, my friend. The law is what you cant do, not what you should do.

Bryanonymous · December 2016

Meh, I don't know much about her, but I've heard she does listen to a lot of feedback from top guild leaders, which is better than nothing. She has a job to do like anyone else, and crown crates are not her call either. I'm sure they expected people to be pissed, and the person to blame is the dev they picked up from swtor and those on the board of directors who wanted to take the game in this direction. Chain of command puts a few employees between customers and ownership, so the only vote that matters is the one with our wallets. If they see certain trends moving profits in the wrong direction, they will care. One of the reasons it's not a stretch to think that these companies might have employees who are paid to just steer opinions in threads in the right direction, or 'correct the record'. When a lot of money is involved, why not...

Prof_Bawbag · December 2016

What can she do though? It's similar to Gstaff (or whatever guise he's under now) over on the Beth forums, he's only a mouth piece, a buffer between us and Bethesda. The state of the game etc isn't their concern, only answering questions relating to any issues (technical or general queries) and moderating the forums are their concern. They get those answers from higher up.

anitajoneb17_ESO · December 2016

Nyx2 wrote: »

"Need" and "want", what's the distinction you're trying to make? What I quoted was on point on that. If you want something bad enough that it makes you leave the game then I'd say that is a need. I can cope with not having many things but they will add more and more content into the crates. Ultimately even I will be frustrated by constantly being taunted with items I want but knowing that there is no way to get them. And there is nothing wrong with that. If that's what we enjoy then we have every reason to complain about it. Otherwise we look for what we enjoy elsewhere. But as mentioned, many games are unique and "elsewhere" isn't easy to find. I could specify more but I'm already going in circles with this.

The point where you seem to go around in circles is when you say you have or will have to leave the game because of the crates, but cannot leave the game because you have no other equivalent game to go to. You're stuck.

On the other hand, you can try and open your eyes to the fact that you don't NEED any crown crate items to play the game, and that is NO MATTER how hard you WANT any of those items. And that is valid even if you care for collections or cosmetics, because the game is otherwise also full of cosmetic and collectible items. You can open your eyes and realize that everyone you see ingame with one of those shiny items has been a victim of this trap system, in full knowledge or not, consensually or not. You can open your eyes to the fact that you CAN carry on enjoying the game like you always have, without ever touching a crate. You'd be unstuck.

In my opinion, the point where the frontier between wanting and needing gets blurry in someone's mind and behaviour is where addiction starts to settle in.

I'm not supporting crown crates, but instead of trying to convince ZOS to withdraw them, I try to explain to people that they can (and should) be totally ignored.

Nyx2 wrote: »

Direct purchases bring money, crown crates steal it.

I don't think it's theft. People are informed of the content of the crates, their prices, and while they don't know the drop rates, at least they know that they don't know the drop rates. On that basis, they choose to buy or not to buy. The whole thing is not classy, I agree, but it's definitely not theft. Or you can call nearly EVERY sales promotion move a theft. The vast majority of companies everywhere are trying all the time to make us buy things we don't need at the maximum possible price. ZOS is just one of them.

anitajoneb17_ESO · December 2016

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

What can she do though? It's similar to Gstaff (or whatever guise he's under now) over on the Beth forums, he's only a mouth piece, a buffer between us and Bethesda. The state of the game etc isn't their concern, only answering questions relating to any issues (technical or general queries) and moderating the forums are their concern. They get those answers from higher up.

Exactly. And I guess that the decisions about crown crates are not even made by the ESO Team.

Noone in the entire ESO Team ever talked to us about crown crates. Only Matt Firor did - and Matt isn't ESO, Matt is ZOS.

I even suspect that this is the true reason why we haven't got any ESO Live recently, and so little communication. They did not want to have the ESO team speak about the crates. The crown crates are a marketing design, not a game design. They're not part of the game. That reflects in who does or doesn't communicate about them.

Nyx2 · December 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Nyx2 wrote: »

"Need" and "want", what's the distinction you're trying to make? What I quoted was on point on that. If you want something bad enough that it makes you leave the game then I'd say that is a need. I can cope with not having many things but they will add more and more content into the crates. Ultimately even I will be frustrated by constantly being taunted with items I want but knowing that there is no way to get them. And there is nothing wrong with that. If that's what we enjoy then we have every reason to complain about it. Otherwise we look for what we enjoy elsewhere. But as mentioned, many games are unique and "elsewhere" isn't easy to find. I could specify more but I'm already going in circles with this.

The point where you seem to go around in circles is when you say you have or will have to leave the game because of the crates, but cannot leave the game because you have no other equivalent game to go to. You're stuck.

On the other hand, you can try and open your eyes to the fact that you don't NEED any crown crate items to play the game, and that is NO MATTER how hard you WANT any of those items. And that is valid even if you care for collections or cosmetics, because the game is otherwise also full of cosmetic and collectible items. You can open your eyes and realize that everyone you see ingame with one of those shiny items has been a victim of this trap system, in full knowledge or not, consensually or not. You can open your eyes to the fact that you CAN carry on enjoying the game like you always have, without ever touching a crate. You'd be unstuck.

In my opinion, the point where the frontier between wanting and needing gets blurry in someone's mind and behaviour is where addiction starts to settle in.

I'm not supporting crown crates, but instead of trying to convince ZOS to withdraw them, I try to explain to people that they can (and should) be totally ignored.

Nyx2 wrote: »

Direct purchases bring money, crown crates steal it.

I don't think it's theft. People are informed of the content of the crates, their prices, and while they don't know the drop rates, at least they know that they don't know the drop rates. On that basis, they choose to buy or not to buy. The whole thing is not classy, I agree, but it's definitely not theft. Or you can call nearly EVERY sales promotion move a theft. The vast majority of companies everywhere are trying all the time to make us buy things we don't need at the maximum possible price. ZOS is just one of them.

If someone tells you they need cosmetics in order to enjoy the game then it's no use to explain how insignificant those are or what I should be enjoying instead. I mean this is a roleplaying game, this should be expected. This doesn't have anything to do with addiction either. Let's say a youtuber I like doesn't entertain me anymore despite making decent content. There is no point in forcing myself to keep watching or to be silent with critique that I might have. I have to be honest with myself in regard to what I really want. It's not a great analogy but at least it uses media instead of food and might get across what I mean anyway.

I know that it's only one aspect of the game and it's far from being the only thing I enjoy. But despite the lack of alternatives I'd rather just play something else if this is how they will handle their costumers. TESO isn't the only game I play so I'm not exactly stuck, just disappointed. More importantly why should I accept this and what is the harm in opposing crown crates? You're trying to help but regardless of my future with this game I won't sit by when devs present me neatly packaged scam.

I said that because you were making arguments about how games need to make money. The point was that they can still make money in a more honest way. They're not "stealing" it but they are still thieves in a moral sense. They take advantage of uninformed and naive people. Whatever you wish to call it, to me that is wrong. And no, saying there is only a chance to win is not informing people. They think that in the worst case scenario they still make a good deal because they get 4 consumables which have the same cost or more of a crate. They think if they get something they don't like they'll just turn it into gems and get it that way. These things are not true. And you haven't even mentioned all the subs they lost. That is not lucrative either.

anitajoneb17_ESO · December 2016

Nyx2 wrote: »

They think if they get something they don't like they'll just turn it into gems and get it that way. These things are not true.

It is true. The item they want will end up being quite expensive, but it is true.

Nyx2 wrote: »

And you haven't even mentioned all the subs they lost. That is not lucrative either.

You don't have a clue about how many subs they lost. Neither do I. Invalid argument.

As to the rest... well if you can't enjoy the game anymore because of crown crates, that's your choice. You're free to stay - that implies free to leave. I've tried everything I could to convince you, but ultimately it's your call. And in any case, it's a much better call than to loathe crates, but stay ingame and buy them because you feel you NEED the stuff inside them, which unfortunately, is likely to be the case for quite a few people.

Elsonso · December 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Noone in the entire ESO Team ever talked to us about crown crates. Only Matt Firor did - and Matt isn't ESO, Matt is ZOS.

Lambert talked about Crown Crates briefly at PAX. Whether he got in trouble and was hung upside down from the parking garage until he promised not to do that again, is uncertain.

Nyx2 · December 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Nyx2 wrote: »

They think if they get something they don't like they'll just turn it into gems and get it that way. These things are not true.

It is true. The item they want will end up being quite expensive, but it is true.

Nyx2 wrote: »

And you haven't even mentioned all the subs they lost. That is not lucrative either.

You don't have a clue about how many subs they lost. Neither do I. Invalid argument.

As to the rest... well if you can't enjoy the game anymore because of crown crates, that's your choice. You're free to stay - that implies free to leave. I've tried everything I could to convince you, but ultimately it's your call. And in any case, it's a much better call than to loathe crates, but stay ingame and buy them because you feel you NEED the stuff inside them, which unfortunately, is likely to be the case for quite a few people.

It's not true as that only counts for duplicates. You're still stuck with an item you didn't want which is worth zero gems. It's also not true under the context I have given so don't add things that completely change the situation. Someone who thinks he can turn his undesired items into gems will quickly realize that we won't ever acquire enough gems for a mount. That means he would've never bought them in the first place because ZoS did not inform them comprehensively.

I've seen countless of people quit because of this. The exact numbers are irrelevant as long as there are people that did end their subscription. They destroyed the trust of many of their costumers, that doesn't even have to be argued.

You left out most arguments and taking others out of context means to argue dishonestly. But who cares about all that, the forum says you're right so it must be I'm just making stuff up.

anitajoneb17_ESO · December 2016

Nyx2 wrote: »

I've seen countless of people quit because of this. The exact numbers are irrelevant as long as there are people that did end their subscription. They destroyed the trust of many of their costumers, that doesn't even have to be argued.

The exact numbers are totally relevant : people unsubbing don't matter as long as the global loss of income due to this is less than the global income brought by crown crates.

"Trust" only matters for as long as it translates into income and hours played.

Nyx2 wrote: »

You left out most arguments and taking others out of context means to argue dishonestly. But who cares about all that, the forum says you're right so it must be I'm just making stuff up.

Well, you said you had to quit because you couldn't accept/condone the crates, and because you'd get frustrated by seeing all the items ingame and not being able to get them by direct purchase. To which I answered that quitting was an OK choice. What more do you want me to say ?

It looks like you would like more people, if not everyone, to enrage over crates and argue against them on the "morals" ground... as I already explained, I welcome companies with ethical standards, but I don't expect every company to have those. Also, "morals" is a very tricky thing to try and impose as a standard... we all have varying concepts of "morals" after all...

Tandor · December 2016

Solus wrote: »

Sypher made a good point. I watched him live stream on Twitch and absolutely nothing in the crates effects anyone else but you. And the money that is made from the crates will go into something else, which is funding the devs and giving them a bigger budget. Not to mention there was probably a team of people just working on the crates, and I am betting it wasn't a huge team.

I mean it's a free to play game, you aren't required to pay monthly. They do have to make money somehow. My past experiences with something similar had game breaking finds in them, these do not. Anyone can completely avoid them and it still will not effect you in any way shape or form, other than cosmetically.

Sure it would be frustrating to not get the thing you want, and also not have the money to get it either. I get that.

People seem to be using the gems obtained from the stuff they don't want to get the stuff they do want, if they didn't strike lucky initially. We've seem some positive changes to the gems since PTS and it wouldn't surprise me if there are further changes in the light of the continuing feedback. That's one area in which they could ease the conversion rates and enable people to get stuff without having to spend a fortune, and they wouldn't have to change the whole concept to do it.

MadLarkin · December 2016

Solus wrote: »

Sypher made a good point. I watched him live stream on Twitch and absolutely nothing in the crates effects anyone else but you. And the money that is made from the crates will go into something else, which is funding the devs and giving them a bigger budget. Not to mention there was probably a team of people just working on the crates, and I am betting it wasn't a huge team.

I mean it's a free to play game, you aren't required to pay monthly. They do have to make money somehow. My past experiences with something similar had game breaking finds in them, these do not. Anyone can completely avoid them and it still will not effect you in any way shape or form, other than cosmetically.

Sure it would be frustrating to not get the thing you want, and also not have the money to get it either. I get that.

@Solus
Couple things. You're assuming the extra revenue will go back into the game. In the past, when companies have introduced crate type systems, it has almost always been the case that the opposite has happened. The money goes to the shareholders and the dev teams get thinned out, leaving just enough to keep adding more items to crates, and perhaps release a half-hearted content update infrequently. This is the concern of many people, myself included. I'm not concerned about the cosmetic items that I will or won't get because of the crates, I'm concerned about how ZOS's approach to ongoing development will change.

"It's free to play...they have to make money somehow."

It's buy to play, with an optional subscription. If you don't subscribe, you have to buy the DLC. And they have fairly expansive list of things to buy from the crown store. F2P titles often have all of their content available to everyone, with an optional sub and cash shop, so ESO is already more expensive than many MMO's, and I'm fine with all of those things. My point is, ZOS hasn't been working for free up until this point.

Suter1972 · December 2016

MadLarkin wrote: »

In the past, when companies have introduced crate type systems, it has almost always been the case that the opposite has happened.

That's a bold statement. Any factual evidence to back that up?

GreenhaloX · December 2016

I'm just broke.. I can't afford it!

Solus · December 2016

lordrichter wrote: »

Solus wrote: »

Sypher made a good point. I watched him live stream on Twitch and absolutely nothing in the crates effects anyone else but you. And the money that is made from the crates will go into something else, which is funding the devs and giving them a bigger budget. Not to mention there was probably a team of people just working on the crates, and I am betting it wasn't a huge team.

I mean it's a free to play game, you aren't required to pay monthly. They do have to make money somehow. My past experiences with something similar had game breaking finds in them, these do not. Anyone can completely avoid them and it still will not effect you in any way shape or form, other than cosmetically.

Sure it would be frustrating to not get the thing you want, and also not have the money to get it either. I get that.

There are a couple points that people tend to miss. I do not watch Sypher, so I don't know whether he did or not.

FIrst, yes, there is a team that is doing merchandise for the Crown Store. They have said as much. That team needs to do new stuff every month for the Showcase. Now they need a team to do Crown Crates. Chances are that it is not the same team, or at least, not the same size of team. More output means more resources, unless cuts are made elsewhere. From where I stand, Crown Crates have already ramped up the development investment in the Crown Store. This is exactly what I don't want to see happening to the game. I am playing ESO for the game, not the Crown Store.

Second, we don't know what ZOS is going to do with any additional revenue. We don't know whether it will go into ESO, at all. Even if it does, I would imagine there is a line of groups with their hand out looking for Crown revenue, and game development is not the first in line. For example, they will give revenue to the Crate Development Team before they give it to the Game Development Team. Who knows whether ZeniMax Media and Bethesda get a cut of the Crown sales off the top, before anyone in the studio even sees the money. Steam, Sony, and Microsoft get a cut of the Crown sales. Out of the gate, the Game Development Team might be getting the table scraps, by the time all those hands are happy. If Crown Crates don't do well, there might not be a lot of table scraps left from Crown revenue.

Let us also not forget that Crown Crates are not free. This UI was not just something they found laying around. That investment of effort came from somewhere, and someone paid for it. They were not making ESO game content with this investment. They were making Crown Crates, and those crates need to return on that investment. It is the responsibility of the Crown Crate Development Team to see that happens. TANSTAAFL.

While there is nothing in the crates that affects anyone but the player, all of us are already affected by the crates themselves. We will continue to be affected by the crates for a long time.

Well from Sypher and Deltia (they are twitch streamers and streamed themselves opening the crates, they also gave their impressions and what not) and from what I've seen on social media (alot of people have spent around $100 just to get a mount) i guarantee they have made a pretty penny already, as the model isn't designed to sell crates, rather sell more Crowns. Crowns is (are?) the microtransaction that makes them money, they probably dont care too much what you ultimately spend them on. Maybe they do, but that's neither here nor there.

You can't know anymore than I can what the money would go to. You'd have to figure out where the money from crown crates goes to, which I'm sure is claimed by ZOS, (and yes Steam and other middle men get a cut from sales/which is around 30-40% per sale, im assuming Sony would be around the same) so one could assume it would go into the budget for future development of the game.

Unless the revenue for crowns goes to another partner company for tax reasons, ZOS would have to claim that as revenue for the business on their taxes, if they are paying taxes on their revenue, which would also reflect their budget (I'm no business major, I'm just making an educated guess) if they wanted to continue to make content and in turn, money, on ESO they couldn't really screw around with moving that money around and using it on something they feel wouldn't be financially beneficial to them.

I personally can see ESO sticking around for as long if not longer than WOW. There's really ALOT they could do with this game, almost to the point of endless possibilities, I just think they needed to make a slight change to boost revenue for some awesome stuff for us in 2017.

I have faith in them.

EDIT: the wiki says that they are around a 250 person team, could be less or more to date. I highly doubt even 1/10th of that size of team was working on the crown crates. It's really a simple UI. I mean take FFXV for example, 8 people from square enix designed all of the boss fights in the game. 8 people! and yes it took like 10 years but that is because the in house engine they developed, and not really the complexity of that task. Compare that to a crate, I would think to a team of 4-8 people only working on the crates for the last 8 months or however long that has been would be a simple task, especially when that was their 9-5 job. I really really doubt the crates took as much out of the budget that everyone thinks it did.

And to the actual rewards from the crates, a completely different team would have worked on the rewards. And its possible that they didnt even know what they were making them for ultimately, they probably have a giant list of things to design and render and then someone else decides what to do with them. ZOS, bethesda, they all are very experienced and good at what they do, Im sure this entire process is way more fluid than what most people want to believe

MadLarkin wrote: »

Solus wrote: »

Sypher made a good point. I watched him live stream on Twitch and absolutely nothing in the crates effects anyone else but you. And the money that is made from the crates will go into something else, which is funding the devs and giving them a bigger budget. Not to mention there was probably a team of people just working on the crates, and I am betting it wasn't a huge team.

I mean it's a free to play game, you aren't required to pay monthly. They do have to make money somehow. My past experiences with something similar had game breaking finds in them, these do not. Anyone can completely avoid them and it still will not effect you in any way shape or form, other than cosmetically.

Sure it would be frustrating to not get the thing you want, and also not have the money to get it either. I get that.

@Solus
Couple things. You're assuming the extra revenue will go back into the game. In the past, when companies have introduced crate type systems, it has almost always been the case that the opposite has happened. The money goes to the shareholders and the dev teams get thinned out, leaving just enough to keep adding more items to crates, and perhaps release a half-hearted content update infrequently. This is the concern of many people, myself included. I'm not concerned about the cosmetic items that I will or won't get because of the crates, I'm concerned about how ZOS's approach to ongoing development will change.

"It's free to play...they have to make money somehow."

It's buy to play, with an optional subscription. If you don't subscribe, you have to buy the DLC. And they have fairly expansive list of things to buy from the crown store. F2P titles often have all of their content available to everyone, with an optional sub and cash shop, so ESO is already more expensive than many MMO's, and I'm fine with all of those things. My point is, ZOS hasn't been working for free up until this point.

Well now you can purchase the gold edition with all the DLC for what... 20 bucks? Something like that. I mean yes the correct terminology is B2P, but 20 bucks is really cheap to experience the entirety of Tamriel.