Emencie wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

JahneeO wrote: »

I find it hard to believe it has anything to do with the "direction of the game" since the whole time I've been playing, the game has done nothing but get better in my opinion. Next "season" of crown crates we'll get the same thing when they can't buy the new shiny.

It's not JUST about "not getting the shiny" (though that certainly is part of it); it absolutely has something to do with the direction of the game. Some of us -- yours truly included -- have lived through MMORPG F2P transitions, and are having horrible flashbacks. As MMOs ease into F2P, the development focus shifts away from the game itself to strategies designed to maximize microtransactions. In short, new game content falls to the wayside in favour of fluff.

It's pretty depressing that we don't have a confirmed DLC to look forward to in the new year. All we know is that we're getting new scam crate seasons and housing...

In complete transparency, I personally can't imagine what this having "lived through MMORPG F2P transitions" means for someone's actual life. And I give you the benefit of that. Maybe I am wrong, but the tone with which I took your post makes me think your life took some seismic jolt because of these "transitions" (can anyone confirm ESO is transitioning other than opinion?)

With that being said, I don't see how my mind is going to change as far as processing this whole crusade against crown crates on these forums.

It's not some seismic jolt. It's actually a slow gradual process.

For example. SWTOR (the king of the gamble loot box) just completely overhauled their end game gearing process to function like a gamble loot box. Everything in the game now gives you a crate, you open the crate and get random things. After they changed that, they started selling items in the item shop that gives you more (faster) chances at that loot box. In other words over the 4 years of Free to play the micro transactions have gone from cosmetics only, to gamble boxes, to one step away from buying end game gear.

This happens because of a single thing. When a game is supported by subscriptions, the devs goals are to make/keep the game enjoyable enough to keep people happy enough to keep paying for the game. When the game is supported by an item shop, the goal is to make items that people want to buy while playing the game. While cosmetics are good for that, there are better ways to milk your whales. Gambling and convenience start becoming the norm and more content gets added to the item shop than to the game. It's a gradual process that leaves a bitter taste in the mouths of the people who eventually leave those games.

When you love a game, you never want to see it happen. But for many veteran MMO players, we have seen it happen a fair amount. People see loot boxes and immediately think that ESO is going down this path, which is not necessarily true, but seeing what has happened in other games has people upset

Recremen wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Something else that should be fairly obvious, they're not bound by any sort of gambling law that prohibits this sort of behaviour, why? Because the items have no monetary value. That's the only monetary value that should matter in this case. Like i said previously, it doesn't matter what you or anyone else in this thread thinks.

This is the only part you are still tripping up on.

The items do have monetary value! I have no idea why you keep saying that.
Monetary value means worth money. If someone buys it with money, it has monetary value, period.

Secondly The only reason they are not bound by gambling law is because online gambling laws are about what we can do with currency and technically speaking, the crown crates do not cost currency. We trade our money for fake money, then we gamble with the fake money and there is no conversion back to real money. So the gaming control board has no legal say over this process. Not because the goods have no monetary value, especially because, they clearly do.

Anything that winds up in the collections UI, if I recall the TOS correctly, is considered a nontransferable service, so they cannot be exchanged for other goods or services and don't count towards the legal definition of gambling. It's a dirty sneak trick, but that's what we have.

Yup.

If we could trade them to each other especially if someone setup a trading page where people were exchanging cash for the items, the gambling commission would be on Zenimax instantly. Look at what happened to CS:GO. People were gambling with digital items, but those digital items had the ability to be turned back into currency, they jumped in to put a stop to that quickly.

summitxho wrote: »

I bought 4, got some decent stuff, some pit wolf, pets, a golden eyed guar, was pretty enjoyable to open them up. Then I bought 15 more just for this thread crown crates are made more fun by the blown out of proportion hate. Will be interested to see what they come up with down the road, might have to get some more.

Recremen wrote: »

I, too, prefer to live a vapid and unexamined life, because thinking is hard and any issue that doesn't affect me in an obvious way isn't worth consideration.

Recremen wrote: »

Solus wrote: »

Sypher made a good point. I watched him live stream on Twitch and absolutely nothing in the crates effects anyone else but you. And the money that is made from the crates will go into something else, which is funding the devs and giving them a bigger budget. Not to mention there was probably a team of people just working on the crates, and I am betting it wasn't a huge team.

I mean it's a free to play game, you aren't required to pay monthly. They do have to make money somehow. My past experiences with something similar had game breaking finds in them, these do not. Anyone can completely avoid them and it still will not effect you in any way shape or form, other than cosmetically.

Sure it would be frustrating to not get the thing you want, and also not have the money to get it either. I get that.

"Other than cosmetically" is a pretty major hangup in a game for which cosmetics and customization is a major selling feature. The fact of the matter is that they could have just sold all these items in the regular Crown Store directly and nobody would have said boo, but instead they're choosing to lose out on a ton of potential sales because they might get more money from gambling. It's a complete shame.

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Nyx2 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

How is what I said wrong? And you just explained the free market, which is exactly what i been saying throughout this thread pages and pages back now.

@Publius_Scipio

If your local grocery store stops selling the kind of apples you like and instead sells only mystery boxes that might contain that apple variety or might contain some other variety or might not even contain apples at all, you would likely be upset. The option that the store presents to you is a take-it-or-leave-it option, and you'd probably just leave it. Go shop at another grocery store in town. That's how the free market works. Am I correct in assuming that, so far, we are in agreement?

Now, what if you're in a small town, and that is the only store that sells fruit? There's a butcher, but he sells only meat. There's a fishmonger, but he doesn't sell fruit either. What if your one and only source of fruit in this small town decides to do this? The thing about the free market is that it assumes that both sides have a full array of options. And if we're talking about buying fruit, there is almost always more than one option if you don't like what one store is doing, so you can take your business elsewhere and let the free market sort itself out.

But that choice doesn't really exist. Sure, there are other games you could go to. But they're not the same--it's not the same setting, not the same people, not the same mechanics, etc. You won't be invested in another game the same way as this one. If the only fruit seller in town starts pulling shenanigans like that, I could just stop shopping there and only buy from the butcher. They're similar (if all you care about is having something to eat), but very different and most would not consider them to be viable substitutes.

In cases like this, free market ideals are inapplicable because a key requirement--that there exist interchangeable substitutes--doesn't really exist. At least not for people who care deeply about the game. So, tell me, what options do they have, except to complain and hope that ZOS will listen?

And ZOS doesn't have to do much--if all that ZOS did was offer all the Crown Crate items up for direct no-hassle purchase, 90% of the complaints would go away. They can still keep the gambling option around, for people who think gambling is fun or people who want to try their luck at getting something for cheaper. The key problem is having things that are accessible only if you jump through ridiculous hoops with no option of direct purchase.

After reading this I thought at least some of it must've gotten through. But oh what a slap in the face the next page was.

All the painstaking effort to elaborate the issue as simple as possible, patiently going through every aspect to make it abundantly clear and avoid any kind of confusion or distraction. And the only response is that crown crates aren't "monetary value". None of the arguments are discussed, objected or acknowledged. It just goes full stop.

All that just to read insults or more posts from people like @Publius_Scipio who troll under the guise of "free speech" to distract from your arguments and spread ignorance. You can provide facts, arguments or try to engage in discussions: it won't do anything, much less will you hear any pro crate arguments. They have no reason to acknowledge this as scam or ask for more reasonable prices because they don't purchase crown crates themselves. It is tiring so I'm not going to bother with this anymore. Good luck to the rest.

I think you are terribly illogical and misguided in your thoughts regarding the matter. That's what I actually think. Your distaste and anger for the opinions here and your inability to have actually proven beyond opinion what ZOS has done wrong says it all. You and anyone else here has proven ZERO fact of any wrongdoing on ZOS's part. If there is, then you spearhead the effort to get ZOS to do whatever it is that you will find acceptable. I and many others here await your resounding success on the matter and we will all sit at a round table and eat crow. And you definitely want me to respond since you keep tagging me. You keep crusading, the general population of ESO will continue doing what it does, and that is play ESO.

Nyx2 wrote: »

After reading this I thought at least some of it must've gotten through. But oh what a slap in the face the next page was.

All the painstaking effort to elaborate the issue as simple as possible, patiently going through every aspect to make it abundantly clear and avoid any kind of confusion or distraction. And the only response is that crown crates aren't "monetary value". None of the arguments are discussed, objected or acknowledged. It just goes full stop.

All that just to read insults or more posts from people like @Publius_Scipio who troll under the guise of "free speech" to distract from your arguments and spread ignorance. You can provide facts, arguments or try to engage in discussions: it won't do anything, much less will you hear any pro crate arguments. They have no reason to acknowledge this as scam or ask for more reasonable prices because they don't purchase crown crates themselves. It is tiring so I'm not going to bother with this anymore. Good luck to the rest.

In cases like this, free market ideals are inapplicable because a key requirement--that there exist interchangeable substitutes--doesn't really exist. At least not for people who care deeply about the game. So, tell me, what options do they have, except to complain and hope that ZOS will listen?

JimT722 wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Nyx2 wrote: »

After reading this I thought at least some of it must've gotten through. But oh what a slap in the face the next page was.

All the painstaking effort to elaborate the issue as simple as possible, patiently going through every aspect to make it abundantly clear and avoid any kind of confusion or distraction. And the only response is that crown crates aren't "monetary value". None of the arguments are discussed, objected or acknowledged. It just goes full stop.

All that just to read insults or more posts from people like @Publius_Scipio who troll under the guise of "free speech" to distract from your arguments and spread ignorance. You can provide facts, arguments or try to engage in discussions: it won't do anything, much less will you hear any pro crate arguments. They have no reason to acknowledge this as scam or ask for more reasonable prices because they don't purchase crown crates themselves. It is tiring so I'm not going to bother with this anymore. Good luck to the rest.

You make it sound as if anti-crate people were making the effort to *educate* or *enlighten* the pro-crate crowd or "don't care don't buy" crowd, as if their opinion was "the plain truth", while it's only their opinion. And since you want elaborated argumentation, here's mine :

In cases like this, free market ideals are inapplicable because a key requirement--that there exist interchangeable substitutes--doesn't really exist. At least not for people who care deeply about the game. So, tell me, what options do they have, except to complain and hope that ZOS will listen?

The bolded part is where it doesn't fit. "Caring deeply about the game" is used here as a justification for the absolute NEED of those items. But the truth is that you don't NEED those items, you just WANT them - and no matter how badly you want them, it's only a want, not a need. "Caring deeply about the game" in this case sounds like a disguise for actually not being able to cope with the frustration of not having something you want.

As to the hope that complaining will help and ZOS will listen... well if that makes you feel better, fine. But if you truly hope that things will change, you're probably wasting your time. ZOS chose to implement crates, because they can, and because it brings money. Making money is a legitimate goal of any company. Sure, they could have chosen a different ethical positioning - but they didn't. Those decisions are made in places and at levels where, believe me, forum feedback doesn't count at all.

As to the statement that "all they need to do is to make the items also available for direct purchase"... that would mean more people choosing direct purchase and less people buying crates, which means less income (even taking into account the people who would buy directly but never via crates). This is about money, not game design. In my view, the crown store isn't even part of the game, just like the souvenir shop in a museum isn't part of the museum.

You may very well be right in regards to ESO. It may not effect content release in ESO. This would be a first in my experience. These items in the crates are not needed. Still doesn't feel good to have them behind a milking machine when your used to a transparency in price for the past 1.5 years the game has been buy to play. The appearance of their character is something people work on, so this might not matter to you but it will to a lot of people. Many will buy something they like for their character because cosmetics are huge in role playing games. This is the why they decided to heavily monetize this first.

Having played other games the marketing director worked on, it also wouldn't surprise me if system are eventually added to monetize areas you care about. Crown crates are also unethical because of the lack of published drop rates. They don't want the people buying them to know and they can change them at any time

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

You may very well be right in regards to ESO. It may not effect content release in ESO. This would be a first in my experience. These items in the crates are not needed. Still doesn't feel good to have them behind a milking machine when your used to a transparency in price for the past 1.5 years the game has been buy to play. The appearance of their character is something people work on, so this might not matter to you but it will to a lot of people. Many will buy something they like for their character because cosmetics are huge in role playing games. This is the why they decided to heavily monetize this first.

Having played other games the marketing director worked on, it also wouldn't surprise me if system are eventually added to monetize areas you care about. Crown crates are also unethical because of the lack of published drop rates. They don't want the people buying them to know and they can change them at any time

Again you make it sound as if "appearance is important to many players" as a justification for the need of crate items. I, too, care a lot about the appearance of my characters, still there's plenty enough to play with in the game for a whole variety of nice looking outfits without having to rely on crate items - and even on crown store items. There are plenty of disguises, costumes, skins, mounts, pets and crafting motifs in the game.

And they have already monetized an essential thing for me in the game : the crafting bag. As a farmer/crafter/trader type of player, I can't "live" without it - so I resubbed.

Now to elaborate your point to the extreme (having something I care about, want or even need stuck behind RNG purchases) : how would I react IF they offered an even better version of the crafting bag (or some sort of super storage item) in the crown crates only ? Yeah, in that configuration, I would quit playing ESO. But I'm confident they won't do that, storage being a key and core component of the game's mechanics.

Another aspect where I am a completionist is motifs. I like to have them all. I wasn't happy to see crown store exclusive motifs, but I bought the one that's on shelf and I intend to buy the one that's announced. What if they release a "crate-exclusive" motif ? Frankly, I don't know. I'll see when / if that happens - and it could happen.

And yes, crates are not very ethical - but noone is forced to buy.

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Nyx2 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

How is what I said wrong? And you just explained the free market, which is exactly what i been saying throughout this thread pages and pages back now.

@Publius_Scipio

If your local grocery store stops selling the kind of apples you like and instead sells only mystery boxes that might contain that apple variety or might contain some other variety or might not even contain apples at all, you would likely be upset. The option that the store presents to you is a take-it-or-leave-it option, and you'd probably just leave it. Go shop at another grocery store in town. That's how the free market works. Am I correct in assuming that, so far, we are in agreement?

Now, what if you're in a small town, and that is the only store that sells fruit? There's a butcher, but he sells only meat. There's a fishmonger, but he doesn't sell fruit either. What if your one and only source of fruit in this small town decides to do this? The thing about the free market is that it assumes that both sides have a full array of options. And if we're talking about buying fruit, there is almost always more than one option if you don't like what one store is doing, so you can take your business elsewhere and let the free market sort itself out.

But that choice doesn't really exist. Sure, there are other games you could go to. But they're not the same--it's not the same setting, not the same people, not the same mechanics, etc. You won't be invested in another game the same way as this one. If the only fruit seller in town starts pulling shenanigans like that, I could just stop shopping there and only buy from the butcher. They're similar (if all you care about is having something to eat), but very different and most would not consider them to be viable substitutes.

In cases like this, free market ideals are inapplicable because a key requirement--that there exist interchangeable substitutes--doesn't really exist. At least not for people who care deeply about the game. So, tell me, what options do they have, except to complain and hope that ZOS will listen?

And ZOS doesn't have to do much--if all that ZOS did was offer all the Crown Crate items up for direct no-hassle purchase, 90% of the complaints would go away. They can still keep the gambling option around, for people who think gambling is fun or people who want to try their luck at getting something for cheaper. The key problem is having things that are accessible only if you jump through ridiculous hoops with no option of direct purchase.

After reading this I thought at least some of it must've gotten through. But oh what a slap in the face the next page was.

All the painstaking effort to elaborate the issue as simple as possible, patiently going through every aspect to make it abundantly clear and avoid any kind of confusion or distraction. And the only response is that crown crates aren't "monetary value". None of the arguments are discussed, objected or acknowledged. It just goes full stop.

All that just to read insults or more posts from people like @Publius_Scipio who troll under the guise of "free speech" to distract from your arguments and spread ignorance. You can provide facts, arguments or try to engage in discussions: it won't do anything, much less will you hear any pro crate arguments. They have no reason to acknowledge this as scam or ask for more reasonable prices because they don't purchase crown crates themselves. It is tiring so I'm not going to bother with this anymore. Good luck to the rest.

I think you are terribly illogical and misguided in your thoughts regarding the matter. That's what I actually think. Your distaste and anger for the opinions here and your inability to have actually proven beyond opinion what ZOS has done wrong says it all. You and anyone else here has proven ZERO fact of any wrongdoing on ZOS's part. If there is, then you spearhead the effort to get ZOS to do whatever it is that you will find acceptable. I and many others here await your resounding success on the matter and we will all sit at a round table and eat crow. And you definitely want me to respond since you keep tagging me. You keep crusading, the general population of ESO will continue doing what it does, and that is play ESO.

T'is sad when everything you have said in this post could be applied to you. The illogical and misguided, distaste and anger for the opinions here....

What's sad is when people disrespect ZOS. What is sad is when someone disagrees with something ZOS did and labels them scammers. That's where I see sadness. Unless you don't think such a label is derogatory and that ZOS has bad intentions with crown crates. To make revenue in a way that as far as I know is legal for ZOS to do. Unless you or someone else will show that crown crates are in fact illegal, and then i will agree that ZOS is making "dirty money".